The Healthy Screen Habits Podcast

S15 Episode 10: I Survived High School With A Flip Phone // Talmage Erickson

Thu, 23 Apr 2026 07:00:21 GMT

"Connection is the cure for any disease."

~Talmage Erickson

Talmage Erickson is an author, speaker, and digital wellness expert. Having survived high school with a flip phone, he learned what it meant to live beyond the screen.

As one of the Screen Guys, Talmage believes in creating intentional balance. This week, we talked about relating to teens in meaningful ways that will help drive connection and make talking about boundaries surrounding technology use easy.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Resources Mentioned:

https://screenguy.com/

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Hilla ry Wilkinson: (00:00)

As a digital wellness speaker and educator who believes in creating intentional balance as the screen guy, my guest today writes, speaks and presents on all things screens. Sounds familiar. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Talmage Erickson.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:40)

Talmage as someone who grew up in the digital age, you experienced firsthand what it's like to be a teenager with tech. But your, uh, origin story is a little bit different. Can you share your experience with phones and also what compelled you to work in digital wellness?

Talmage Erickson: (01:33)

Oh, that's a great question. Go back to the 14-year-old Talmage, . All my friends had cell phones, especially smartphones and social media, and all my siblings did as well, and said, dad, it's time for me to get a cell phone. And he said, " Let's, let's take a step back here. What if Talmage, you went with a flip phone instead of a smartphone?” And I said, " Okay, so how long are we doing this?” He said, “all of high school. What if you had a flip phone? All of high school? “And I was just the most perfect, obedient, kind, amazing young man. Oh, wow. And I said, " Dad, that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.” Okay, , that's,

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:15)

That's much more like most other 14-year-olds.

Talmage Erickson: (02:18)

I know. I said, I said, dad, are you kidding me? You don't, you don't love me. You don't want me to have friends, you don't want me to be popular. You're not my father, essentially, is what I said. And we had a really good talk. We sat down across from each other and he said, “Talmage, I've, I've been seeing a lot of struggles in the community, and I don't want you to fall into that trap.” Mm. I said, " Dad, you got me.” And so after some pushing and shoving and, and pulling and tugging, he bits me. And, and when I turned 16 years old, just before my sophomore year of high school, I got a little flip phone. It's one of those slider phones. You got the screen on top and the keyboard on the bottom, slides up and down. I think it was indestructible. I chucked it off mountains. I ran over it, I lit it on fire. We, we, we shot at it with paintball guns. That thing didn't die. It was amazing. And

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:09)

So you were, you were trying to love it to death. I can tell

Talmage Erickson: (03:12)

I was trying to love it to death, and boy, boy did we, but I, I got a front row seat, like you said, Hilary, at, at some of the things that were happening around me, such as cyberbullying, sexting, pornography, all this comparison, this competition, this criticism that comes with the digital world. And I just sat back and thought, you know what, maybe, maybe this was meant to be, maybe my dad was in the right. And so that led me on a journey of understanding what digital wellness means and how we can live a life beyond the screen? How we can connect in real life instead of virtually. And, and that's where I'm at today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:51)

I relate to your story in that I grew up in a house where TV was really not allowed it was allowed in very like limited viewing, special events, stuff like that as a result, like I can remember watching like presidential inaugurations. Yeah. I remember like, you know, like many others of Gen X, I remember when the space shuttle blew up. I remember when the, you know, I mean, but they're very, very impactful visual images. Um, but I can tell you as a result, there were, and still are to this day, pop culture references that get made, like specific say Brady Bunch episodes, Oh, yeah. Or opening songs to, um, sitcoms of like the seventies and eighties, you know, that were popular, but I have literally no idea what people are talking about.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:53)

knowing like our meme culture and like, you know, how saturated that is, do you have any of those pockets of like, I do not know what like Daniel's white shoes were, or do I do not know? Like, like do you have any of those?

Talmage Erickson: (05:12)

I believe that I do. And, and to name them specifically, I, I wouldn't even know where to start Uhhuh . And so you're probably right. I, I, I missed out on some of those, uh, those memes, some of those famous reels or videos that went viral. I just, I heard about 'em from my friends, but maybe didn't get to get to experience it firsthand.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:34)

Yeah, yeah. But with a little, um, age and perspective, you're okay with it.

Talmage Erickson: (05:39)

Totally

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:40)

This is like one of the primary things that when we recommend parents, um, use like a transitional device, um, like a Troomi or a Gabb or something along those lines. Um, do you, um, did you have a challenge with, um, like making plans with friends, feeling included within, um, you know, social setups and if you played athletics how did your coaches communicate with you?

Talmage Erickson: (06:21)

Great point. And, and I would say I did, I missed out a lot, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. My family moved right after I got my little smartphone or a little flip phone. And, and so I started at a new school. I started in a new community, a new church group, a new area, a new neighborhood. And to be honest, that was the hardest part. Yeah. Was I, I wasn't in the group chats. I wasn't connected with people online. I wasn't in the Instagram DMs. I didn't have that virtual connection with some of my old friends. So I, I sank pretty low and I felt very, very alone. But what did happen was I learned that real connection isn't virtual. And I learned that people need people. And I hadn't experienced Hillary when I was - that first semester when I was at my new school. I just, man, I was in the dumps, and I was walking home from school thinking to myself, man, I just, I don't belong. I'm not one of the cool kids. I'm not the popular kid. Oh my, I'm the new kid,

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:25)

, My heart's breaking.

Talmage Erickson: (07:27)

And, and this was a life-changing moment because I had a friend come and, and he rolled down his window and I had met him somewhere, I don't remember. And he said, Hey, let me give you a ride. So I hopped in his car and he gave me a ride home. And I thought, oh my gosh, in the depths of despair, people are what matter most. And so that gave me a good insight of what it means to live beyond the screen. And what we teach in schools and in communities is connection is the cure for any disease. It's the cure for any addiction. It's the cure for any hardship that you had in life. And so, yes, I did struggle because I, I felt like I didn't belong in the digital world, but also I had a better view of real connection. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that answered your question.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:12)

I, it, it does. And it, uh, it, it's oddly validating for choices I made with my own parenting, but also, you know, we live in such a frictionless world anymore. We live in such a world of convenience. Literally, you know, just tapping a button can bring nearly anything to our doorstep within hours or days. And I think that we've gotten so used to living in this lap of, like I said, just ease and comfort and everything that we forget that friction is necessary for growth. So that's a very good reminder. Thank you, . So let me just ask you one more, one more thing about high school, and then I'm gonna let it go. 'cause I believe me, , I, I know we got other things to talk about, but for parents who might be compelled to challenge their kids to go smartphone free through say, like, you know, just delay it until like, you know, 16, 18, whatever. How do you, how do you sell that? How do you recommend it gets phrased so that it doesn't just come across like, you know, top-down management, this is my way or the highway kind of stuff? You know,

Talmage Erickson: (09:36)

I, I wish I had all the parenting knowledge in the world. I really do. And, and , the best thing I could think of, and, and the metaphor I always come back to is sometimes there's gotta be a Grinch in, in the Christmas story. And if you remember the Grinch, he goes and he steals all the presents and he steals all the joy, so to say, from the community. And guess what happens? They wake up and they sing, and they're gathered around the tree and they just love on each other. And they're singing songs and they're connected. And I think sometimes as a parent, we're so focused on the short term mm-hmm . Of, oh my gosh, I'm gonna ruin this relationship. But take a look of a down 2, 3, 4 years, what are you building now for your kid digitally as well as socially, intellectually, emotionally, mentally, so that they can find real connection. They can, they can sing down there in Whoville the rest of their life. And that's what we always go back to is take some risks now as a parent that say, “Hey, we're gonna do this so that the rest of your life, you have a good baseline of what it is to talk to someone in real life. To have eye contact with someone, to have real connection.”

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:45)

Yeah. Yeah. Great advice from a soon dad to be.

Talmage Erickson: (10:49)

That's right. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:50)

That's so exciting. Okay. When we come back, I'm going to ask Talmage how to deliver hard messages to kids who just want their own phone and some other helpful hints.

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HSH Workbook

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speak ing with Talmage Erickson, a digital wellness educator and advocate, also known as the Screen Guy. Talmage has been doing the work of getting kids and families educated in all areas of digital wellness. And I'm curious, this is, uh, you know what they always say, like, research is me-search. Well, you know, , this is, this is a little bit, a little bit me here, but when you talk to kids, what type of messaging do you find lands best? Like when you're speaking to groups, is it, is it brain science? Is it cautionary tales? Like what do you find connects with kids and makes the biggest impact?

Talmage Erickson: (12:12)

I, to be honest with you, I, I like to play music and I use music as a way to teach kids. So I play the saxophone and I play the, I play the accordion. I sing songs. I'm not a good singer, by the way, but I feel like when you get kids moving and dancing and then sing it along with you, the brain starts to turn on and they start to think, you know what, maybe this is a good message. And so when I go to schools and I present, we talk about some of the digital dangers that we can avoid, a few tips from the digital doctor, and then we sing a few songs about how to live beyond the screen. Some parodies I wrote to some popular songs. And then we ended off with an inspiring story that goes back to what I shared with you about that friend who, who gave me a ride home and inspired me to, to be better and live beyond the screen. And so our message is, how can you go out and make a difference in someone's life today by just putting your phone down and looking up?

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:05)

Oh, I love it. And I, um, I think that that type of messaging doesn't just go away with kids. I feel like when you can come from a place of help and hope sprinkled in with some humor and like, wow, you're a genius to work in that musical connection, because, I mean, it's so silly, but like, I can, I can spout off camp songs that I've learned at, like, you know, at 10, you know, so it's like those, those songs do have sticking power. I love that. Right,

Talmage Erickson: (13:38)

Right. No, I agree. And, and the goal is to also give them practical strategy. So that's not all the fluff. It's not all rah rah, rah for, like you said, the practical strategies are work, what work best with, with parents and families. And so giving them tools and tips, but also inspiration as they start their digital journeys.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:58)

Yeah, I love that. So we know from studies that people who spend over three hours a day on social media are three times more likely to experience depression and anxiety so you got three and three. Can you kind of, because we do at healthy screen habits, we do like to be research back science-based. Okay. Can you, um, explain the kind of just this whole role of dopamine within this cycle? And for anybody who needs like a, a brief refresher, dopamine is a neurotransmitter, which is a chemical messenger within our brain that has to do with like, drive and it also follows the pleasure pathway. And it's, it's integral to learning. I mean, dopamine is like, it's kind of gone from this darling to this bad guy. And, um, I don't mean to cast it in any light, dopamine is, it's necessary for us to live a human life. But can you sort of explain the role of dopamine and the whole cycle of social media, and I'm gonna use the word addiction and, and video game addiction and all of that.

Talmage Erickson: (15:21)

Great point. And I love that you're science-based, because that's all that digital wellness is, is science-based and research-backed. Dopamine, like you said, is the neurotransmitter sense, a signal to the brain. It's used for motivation, but also movement. And so I feel like sometimes in pop culture, social media culture, we, we have this phrase, this dopamine depletion, and it sounds like, oh my gosh, everyone's gonna die, die. And I think a, a, a different phrase we could use is actually dopamine desensitization. When you say depletion, it almost sounds like the brain has a fixed amount of dopamine that you can only use. And once it's used up, you're dead. No, I don't know. But dopamine desensitization means that because you're constantly overloading that reward circuit, some of those receptors start to become numb to the increased amount of dopamine. And so they start to shut off.

Talmage Erickson: (16:17)

Now we use the analogy of, of think of a few boats on a lake and some docks, the docks are the, are the receptors and the boats are dopamine. What happens when you have so many boats on the lake? Well, the docks start to shut down and say, sorry, boats. You're, you're on your own. And so when we do these instant gratification, high dopamine activities like scrolling, pornography use, playing video games endlessly and other dopa high dopamine activities, we're overloading the lake with boats. And what our brain says is, oh my gosh, we have to regulate this. So we're shutting down some of the docks. And that's why some of the mundane tasks of everyday life, like going for a walk or conversations with a friend or doing chores are boring for most kids because they're so used to that instant. Oh my gosh, this is so exciting, so exciting, so exciting. Dopamine isn't necessarily all about reward. It's more about, Hey, this was worth it, so do it again. And that's the change we need to understand. It's is dopamine is neither good or bad. It's not like when you look at your phone, you need more dopamine. It's the fact that your brain likes and motivates you to chase things that make it feel good. And so dopamine is that motivator.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:36)

On the Screen Guy website, there's a, there's a cautionary phrase that I immediately kinda looked at and was like, Hmm, what is that? And it's “don't be a 96er”. And can you explain what that is?

Talmage Erickson: (18:38)

There's so many different studies or, or I wish, I wish I had all the research on mine, but a 96er is someone who picks up their phone 96 times a day. Yeah. And what we've come up with is a 96 er is, is not what you want to do. So the average person picks up their phone, every five to seven minutes. And so when they use their phone every five to seven minutes, they're only using it for about two minutes, which means they don't have any purpose where they pick up their phone, they're just picking it up to pick it up. Mm-hmm . And so when you say don't be a 96 er, it means, hey, out of sight, out of mind, put your phone away in a drawer, in a desk or, or in a different room, and then be present with your family. So don't be a 96'er.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:23)

Yeah, yeah. I, it's putting the intention behind it. Yeah. We, um, yeah, don't be a 96 er or when you, when you pick up your phone, we try to encourage parents to narrate their use of the phone. Interesting. So that, um, you know, because we apply our lived truths to what we see happening in the world. And for, for most children at a young age, the phone is used for entertainment purposes. Mm-hmm . Right? So anytime they see somebody on a phone, what they're thinking it's being used for is for entertainment purposes because that's their truth. Okay. So when you kind of can open the top of your brain and narrate what you're doing on it, it also creates that don't be a 96er friction of like, “what's my purpose?” When you have to apply, I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna look on the phone because I need to see if practice starts at 3:00 PM or 5:00 PM coach, you know, talked to me earlier and I don't know what, so it just, it, it injects into your dialogue and your use some purpose and some intention behind the phone use. So I love that. I, thanks. Thanks. It's cool. I feel like, like you and I could just sit and banter .

Talmage Erickson: (20:51)

Yeah, totally.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:54)

Okay. So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Talmage for his healthy screen habit.

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HSH website

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Hillary Wilkinson: (21:05)

I'm speaking with Talmage Erickson from Screen Guy! Talmage. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice nearly immediately in their own home. What is yours?

Talmage Erickson: (21:28)

You've probably heard this before, but just to reiterate, it's, it's the process of gray scaling your phone. apps are designed to be wow, pizzazz, wow, boom, pow, exciting. And so they make us want to click. What happens when you gray scale your phone is things start to become a little less exciting and you're less likely to click on 'em. So you go to your settings, you go to accessibility, you go to display, and then color filters. And then once you do that, you're able to gray scale and that just turns your whole iPhone or smartphone gray. It's gonna be boring, but that's the point. The point is for, for it to be boring. So you're focused and you're purpose filled on your screen, and then you can get back to real connection.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:11)

Love it. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to more info about the Screen Guy. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Talmage, thank you so much for the work you're doing today, for you just, um, sharing what life is like with the, the potential when we, uh, kind of gain control of these screens again.

Talmage Erickson: (22:47)

Thank you, Hilary. It's a pleasure to be on with you. Apprec iate it.

S15 Episode 9: Screen Aware Childhood // Pat Cantor, Ed.D., Mindy Holohan, MA, CFLE, Jean Rogers, M.S.Ed, CPE

Wed, 15 Apr 2026 07:00:02 GMT

"…a big misunderstanding is that young children can learn from screens."

~Pat Cantor, Ed.D.

Happy week of the Young Child! The week of the Young Child is an annual week-long celebration sponsored by the National Association for the Education of Young Children (AKA: NAEYC). The purpose of this week is to focus public attention on the needs of young children and their families, and to recognize the early childhood programs and services that meet those needs. The book I’d like to honor and recognize for this is: Screen Aware Early Childhood, A Realistic Approach to Helping Young Children Thrive in a Digitally Complex World. The authors, Pat Cantor, Mindy Holohan, and Jean Rogers, walk us through the key points and tell us what we can do now to help our children thrive in the digital age.

Listen to this episode and visit the show notes on the Healthy Screen Habits website to gain access to this valuable resource.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway(s!)

Resources

Resources Mentioned:

https://fairplayforkids.org/

Book: Screen Aware Childhood: A Realistic Approach to Helping Young Children Thrive in a Digitally Complex World

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=screen+aware+childhood%3A+A+realistic+approach+to+helping+young+children+thrive+in+a+digitally+complex+world&crid=EHBF2U588DX2&sprefix=screen+aware+childhood+a+realistic+approach+to+helping+young+children+thrive+in+a+digitally+complex+world%2Caps%2C312&ref=nb_sb_noss

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 00:29 )

I'd like to wish everyone a big, happy week of the Young Child. The week of the Young Child is an annual week-long celebration sponsored by the National Association for the Education of Young Children, also known as NAEYC. And the purpose of this week is to focus public attention on the needs of young children and their families, and to recognize the early childhood programs and services that meet those needs. And when I think of all the programs, books, services that have come out this year to advocate for our youngest ones, there is one book that is standing head and shoulders above the rest. And this book is Screen Aware Early Childhood, A Realistic Approach to Helping Young Children Thrive in a Digitally Complex World. The authors are with us today- and Pat Cantor, it's, there's three of them. Pat Cantor is Professor Emerita of Early Childhood Studies and a former associate provost at Plymouth State University, New Hampshire.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 01:48 )

Mindy Holohan serves as faculty specialist in Family Science and Human Development at Western Michigan University. And Jean Rogers is the director of the Screen Time Action Network at Fairplaya global collaborative of practitioners, educators, advocates, and parents. I'm gonna jump right into it. These three powerhouses. I wanna focus everything on what they've done to create this amazing resource. Jean, I'm gonna start with you. So we know that digital media use is ubiquitous today. Can you explain why is it so important to focus on early childhood when understanding the impacts?

Jean Rogers: ( 02:43 )

Thanks for that question, Hillary. And thanks for having us. You know, we rightly see a focus today in the news and in a lot of our online platforms, that teens and pre-teens are exposed to a lot of harm online. And that is a good focus and fine when young children had virtually no exposure to screens. And it started later in childhood, but we wrote this book to call attention to the fact that companies now target infants and parents of infants and parents are also online themselves. They are not trusting their parental instincts, putting all their faith and influences that are telling them how to parent. So it's a big, kind of confusing online world, and as you said, ubiquitous. But what we really want parents to know is that the child's brain is growing to 80% of what it will be as an adult brain by the time they're three years old. It's an incredible period of exploration and really understanding the world around them. And screens are not meeting that need. So if we think about sort of the pediatric icons like Barry Brazelton, they taught us that infants have emotions and that they need loving adults to meet and reflect those emotions and screens are just not meeting that need. And that's why it's so important to start young.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 04:13 )

Even in hearing you talk about that, it feels so validating as a mom, just knowing my babies and my, you know, knowing inherently these are real emotions that I'm seeing. This is real connection. And so I'm glad you gave voice to that. Mindy,what can you tell us about the approach and the tools, Screen Aware Early Childhood provides for parents?

Mindy Holohan: ( 04:45 )

Yeah. So, um, I echo Jean’s sentiments and gratitude, um, to you for having us and happy week of the Young Child to you and listeners. And also, um, just again, like deep appreciation for all that you and the Healthy Screen Habits team do for children and families. when it comes to, uh, our book, right, we know that, and as Jean kind of touched on it, that did screen-based digital technologies and media that are, you know, delivered via those technologies are impacting all domains of child development. Um, we know they are also impacting many, if not all domains of early childhood practice. They are impacting many, if not all domains of adult child relationships, um, due to their, ubiquity. Um, and so we know also that those impacts are like really complex, um, and involve many variables and that there's no one answer or a formula or, you know, and then, and that they're, they're evolving.

Mindy Holohan: ( 06:00 )

identifying, um, that need kind of for screen awareness in those spaces and aiming to like, respond to and address those needs has been what brought Jean and Pat and I together over time. titling the book Screen Aware Early Childhood is very intentional, um, and is a concept that we've, you know, developed, um, that has shown to be of use , um, for parents and practitioners.we define, screen awareness as both the knowledge and the practices that uphold the developmental well-being and rights of young children in a screen-based and media-centric society.

Mindy Holohan: ( 07:35 )

The book really is anchored in those, that definition. A major goal of the book has been to really bring research into practice. Um, and we do that, through sharing like really consequential research findings, um, addressing some of the biggest questions that early childhood, um, practitioners and parents with young children have and families have about, the impacts of screen time and use and content, um, including, like Jean touched on a little bit, the like problematic industry practices and things. Um, and then also one of my favorite, um, components is, is also identifying, defining, um, protective factors.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 09:55 )

Yeah. I love that protective portion. It, it just speaks to this very intentional approach that you three, uh, came at early childhood with the screen awareness component. And really, the power behind this book is it serves as such a great translational piece between the research and the practice of everyday use. And I really, um, commend you for doing that because that can be so tricky. Pat, one of the things that you warn about in this book is that screens can replace essential human cues in those first critical years of life. And can you talk about this displacement? What does a child stand to lose when a device takes the place of human interaction?

Pat Cantor: ( 10:52 )

Sure. And, uh, Hillary, I wanna share my colleagues, thanks to you for hosting us, and it's especially exciting to be here during the week of a young child. So our screen aware early childhood approach that Mindy was just talking about is grounded in four kind of guiding principles, four key areas, child development. So it's development focused, it's informed by research, it's based on relationships and the importance of relationships because we know that young children learn best in the context of their relationships with caring adults. And it's also strengths-based, kind of referring to those protective factors that you were just discussing. And we know, as I said, early childhood learning happens in the context of relationships. Uh, we know the importance of what the Harvard Center on the Developing Child called serve and return interactions. Those are the interactions that very young children have with caring adults, where they kind of throw out a cue.

Pat Cantor: ( 11:58 )

It might be a cry or a facial expression or some body language, and the adult responds to that individual particular cue. That is a very human interaction that's really impossible for digital media to duplicate. People might tell you AI is getting there, but I don't believe that, and I don't haven't seen proof that AI can provide that kind of contingent responsive interaction that a caring, loving, fellow human being can. So we know that those serve and return interactions are really crucial for children's learning. those interactions are how children learn about self-regulation. It takes a really long time. Some developmentalists say it takes well into young adulthood for people to learn self-regulation. And in those early years, children learn about self-regulation through co-regulation. Again, an adult helps them understand what will soothe them, what they can do when they're upset, take deep breaths, whatever.

Pat Cantor: ( 13:06 )

We also know that those interactions are the foundations for children's understanding of language and hearing language and engaging in responsive language interactions, starting when an infant can't even really form words yet, but is communicating in other ways, and then building as they form approximations of words and build vocabulary. That's how children learn language. They're not going to learn that through screen, uh, encounters. So one of the examples that we use in the book is how a, a child or baby starts to understand a concept like hot. A parent has a cup of coffee and the baby reaches for it, and the parent says, oh, that's hot. And sometimes the parent will say, you can touch one finger to the cup. So they get an understanding of what hot feels like and how it's different from not hot. They may see the steam rising from the mug, they may put their hand over the steam, and repeated interactions like that will help the baby understand what hot means.

Pat Cantor: ( 14:10 )

It might be it's hot outside, it's hot on the radiator, lots of different ways of understanding hot. Compare that to looking at a screen and seeing a picture of, of a mug of coffee and saying hot, hot. There's no contextual understanding for that word. There's not repeated use of it in different contexts. There's not the multisensory aspect of feeling the heat, smelling the aroma of whatever it is that's hot, uh, experiencing different levels of hot. You don't get the same kind of deep learning or understanding from the screen encounter that you do from, uh, the kind of real-world interaction that's mediated by an adult. And that's kind of an example of what we mean by children learning in the context of relationships. Their learning is much deeper, much more multi-sensory and much more likely to stick than encounters with a screen. And that can be lost if children's, you know, primary encounters are with digital media rather than with other humans.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 15:23 )

For sure. For sure. That immersive experience of learning in real time, multidimensional, I mean, we know that just like what Jean referenced, the the rate of growth of the young brain is something that we as adults can't even imagine living in. Right? And so the importance of the input is, I don't know that we can quite understand it yet. And when you, when you blanket everything to that flat, single dimensional surface, it's, it's no wonder there's no transfer of learning. Mm-hmm . Mm. From flat screen to real life. Thank you, you guys. I, it's, I'm so glad you put together this book because you guys are masters at crafting this, this journey with screens. We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're gonna talk more about a screen aware early childhood.

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Ad Break: HSH Workbook

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I'm speaking with the co-authors of Screen Aware Early Childhood, a new book that focuses on the importance of being intentional around babies and young children when on our devices that are everywhere. So I'm going to aim this one at you, Mindy. Families, your our family specialist, families and educators feel really pressured to introduce screens early. And how can teachers, caregivers, you know, grandparents, parents push back with confidence and still feel supported?

Mindy Holohan: ( 18:41 )

This has been kind of the premise for our work is, is recognizing that every, you know, parent, you know, grandparent, you know, wants the best for the, the, their children, you know, for sure grandchildren. And, um, as do early childhood practitioners, um, early childhood practitioners are also, you know, navigating so much already and responsible for so much already as are families. Um, and, you know, some of, you know, and that's kind of gotten more complicated. And that's probably like the understatement, you know, of the century in terms of, the onslaught of these technologies and the, the noise around them. so lots of claims of, their effectiveness or, you know, and, and, and, and I, I, I frankly like empathize so much, you know, with, with families that are just wanting to do the right things mm-hmm .

Mindy Holohan: ( 19:56 )

You know, wanting to do what's best for their kids. And then, having to navigate all kinds of c onflicting, um, claims, especially from, you know, profit based, um, fronts. And, and increasingly, you know, educators too are are navigating facing those, um, in terms of, technology in the classroom we hold very steadfast, you know, and, and I, it's something that Jean has said since I met her and something that, you know, we, okay, I, I've taken up the refrain and, um, believe that the book, um, also, you know, addresses, which is that, technologies are gonna change but child developmental needs do not change.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 21:15 )

I love that. I quote Jean Rogers on that all the time.

Mindy Holohan: ( 21:22 )

Same. And, um, you know, this book, you know, really, you know, anchors, you know, just, it's always coming back to child development. We've called it like our, the North Star. You know, it, it is one of those, um, key, you know, principles in our, in our framework, and it is knowledge and expertise that practitioners have and, families have, they know their children the best. we also know that parents are increasingly stressed. They have, you know, a lot of shame around, like, they're like screen use and getting it right. They, there's a lot of, um, judgment and, our approach is we don't wanna add to any of that.

Mindy Holohan: ( 22:34 )

And practitioners too feel like they're, it's hard to keep up. We don't know the best things what we do is we, really emphasize the fact that, you know, families and educators and practitioners,, are vital. They play vital roles in, um, both, you know, nurturing and also safeguarding, um, child development. We include re research from big national, you know, polls that, you know, show that practi early childhood practitioners are some of the voices that families trust the most. Um, and so that gives a really unique opportunity for, for, um, force promoting, practicing screen awareness and, and, and many are already.

Mindy Holohan: ( 23:59 )

This work grew out of years of of our, you know, both individual practices with children and families, and our collaborative work. Um, and I think it's better for it, you know, because it's, it's really integrates the perspectives of practitioners on the ground, the, the pressures that they're facing, and, and then gives very concrete, um, strategies, information, resources,to promote that core, like objective of child wellbeing, these, you know, family wellbeing, you know, child rights, um, in this, you know, like we say in our title, like digitally complex world, right? Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 25:49 )

Yeah. Um, so I feel like if, um, if those teachers, caregivers, parents need that, um, that pushback and they have with, you know, with confidence to know that they're feeling, right? I, I feel like you guys really have boiled down some of those, um, science-backed research-backed nuggets, uh, for, for which they can stand on, you know? Yeah. That they can feel confident with their messaging moving forward. So, yeah. Yeah.

Mindy Holohan: ( 26:18 )

And I mean, in the book too, it's, it's even the way that we organized it, you know? Mm-hmm . You know, we've got two parts. Part one is cultivating screen awareness. And then the second part is advancing it, advancing screen awareness. So what we can do, and strategies and practices for doing that.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 26:53 )

Mm-hmm . Right? Pat, um, within the book, you describe ways that screens can influence children's development before parents even realize what's happening. what do you find is the biggest misunderstanding caregivers have about early screen use?

Pat Cantor: ( 27:28 )

Well, kind of building on what we've talked about before, what we've talked about already. I think a big misunderstanding is that young children can learn from screens, including very young children. You used the word before Hillary, Transfer of learning. And there's actually a phenomenon called video deficit or transfer deficit that has been researched for decades, starting with television that actually shows that very young children under the age of about two and a half or three can't actually learn from a two dimensional screen. They can't learn from it till it's transferred , till they have an understanding of three dimensional. So they can't transfer what they see on a two-dimensional screen to their three-dimensional reality. So my example before of learning about a concept like Hot mm-hmm . Just doesn't transfer from that. Seeing it on a screen to a 3D world, they need real world experiences. But parents and grandparents are so bombarded by advertising messages that, you know, early encounters with screens make children smarter.

Pat Cantor: ( 28:42 )

This app is educational, this program will support their understanding of academic concepts, and they'll do better in school. There's no basis for those claims. We know that. I think a lot of families assume that when an app is labeled as educational, some board or other has held it up to a set of standards and said, “okay, this is educational.” Anybody can say their app is Ed educational. There's no set of regulations governing that. Uh, researchers have described apps as the digital Wild West. There's just no clear agreed upon set of guidelines about what makes an app educational. And so many parents are motivated as, as Mindy said, by the desire to do what's best for their children. You know, so many parents, so many teachers, we make the assumption that everybody is motivated by that. So of course, they're vulnerable to that kind of advertising that says, " This is the best thing for your child.

Pat Cantor: ( 29:46 )

This will help your child learn.” And I feel that that's a, a misunderstanding that's so shaped by advertising that it's, it's really exploiting right, family's goals and desires for their children. And I'm thinking about, again, how a poet is that we're doing this during the week of the young child, because when I was a preschool teacher and a director of a childcare center, the week of the young child was such a great week for, you know, one day is devoted to music and one to art. I went to cooking, I went to math, early math experiences, and one to discovery. Those are the ways that children learn. And screens are not part of that whole rollout of the week. It's such a great week for trying multi-dimensional, multi-sensory ways to promote children's deep learning and understanding. So that would be my number one misunderstanding. And again, I feel like it's just so shaped by advertising associated with screens.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 30:50 )

It's predatory practices aimed at children.. I completely agree with you , and I know Jean does too. Jean, in your opinion, how can society, how can we all collectively support children's rights in our digital age?

Jean Rogers: ( 31:12 )

That's a good question, Hillary, when Pat was talking about, um, now marketers are, are, you know, promoting that these apps and digital devices are educational. I was thinking about when my kids were little, it was the Mozart effect. Parents always want their kids to be smarter. And you're always like, we were buying DVDs of Mozart, and I would put 'em on while the kids were doing homework. And so it's so easy to get duped, uh, by these marketers. And I think parents and educators make hundreds of little decisions about children's digital lives every day. And the first thing I'm gonna say is, don't blame parents. Let's put the blame where it belongs. Mm-hmm. On these profit-hungry companies. That's a whole other topic. We would be happy to come back and speak about that sometime. Um, but realize that educators who we really speak to in this book, we want you to know that you're in a unique position of trust.

Jean Rogers: ( 32:18 )

Uh, they, they realize that children have rights to begin with as human beings that we've evolved to, um, understand that they are helpless to stick up for those rights, but they are people. And, you know, educators play a significant role. You are trusted. You have the children so much of their little lives. Um, so to have the courage to really dive into a book like this and use it as a tool for those daily decisions and then share that information with parents in a non-judgmental way, I think is a great way. And then, you know, we are here representing the Screen Time Action Network and - join the network. We would love you to come join us, where we empower you with tools and scripts and support resources, and to be able to go to your administrations and your legislators and change this currently screen-saturated landscape to one that will serve children and help them to grow naturally with all of their developmental needs met.

Jean Rogers: ( 33:27 )

So I think you know, that combination of trusting yourself as an educator and taking that power, and then also, um, joining us with other like-minded individuals. If you're listening to healthy screen habits, we know that you care about this topic. We know you care about how children's lives are being shaped by the digital environment. And, um, and we would love to have you join us,

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 34:14 )

When we come back, I'm gonna ask our experts for their healthy screen habits. —------------------------------------------

HSH Parent Presentation - moms group

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I'm speaking with the authors of the great new book, Screen Aware Early Childhood, A Realistic Approach to Helping Young Children Thrive in a Digitally Complex World. As you know, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their home, hopefully, nearly immediately. Let's start with Jean. What is yours?

Jean Rogers: ( 35:00 )

My favorite healthy screen habit, Hillary, is watch, play, and listen together. One thing we don't have as much in this world is that shared digital reality. Because we're not watching things together. The isolation is dangerous, and it also prevents children from feeling that they can talk about their digital lives, that they can share it with their family, and that it's something positive. It can feel like it's, uh, something that they can, they might be scared about alone. And so what we wanna do is bring it into our families, our friendships, and when we use it, use it together.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 35:42 )

Excellent. Great way to foster those conversations. Pat, can you share your healthy screen habit?

Pat Cantor: ( 35:49 )

It was something that really struck me when we were doing the research for this book, is the impact of screens on sleep. It's had a massive impact on sleep from the youngest infants, right through people my age, . And so my recommendation, and it is a recommendation I've given to all my children for their children, , is remove all digital devices, all screens from children's rooms and from your, your habits before bed, no screens before bedtime, and no screens in bedrooms because of the negative impact on sleep. It's a habit I've had to learn, and I think it's a really important one.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 36:34 )

Yeah, it's one of our top five core habits, so thank you for bringing it up to the forefront. Mindy, do you have a healthy screen habit for us?

Mindy Holohan: ( 36:46 )

Yes. So, um, one of my favorite kind of terms coming out of the research, um, and that we examine in the book, um, it's, it, and, and that's really resonates with readers so far and with, um, families and practitioners we've been working with over the years, is the term technoference. And that is, in a nutshell, kind of, uh, utilized to describe the ways that that screen-based technology, digital technology disrupts, um, interpersonal relationships, you know, disrupts, interrupts, and maybe even, you know, displaces. So, you know, the way it, it interferes with these really important fronts, So, um, you know, one habit related to tech interference is, you know, totally understanding that screens aren't going anywhere. , you know, like so much of our lives are organized around them, but something that can make such a huge difference. And again, I think this is an adult practice when children are younger, but then hopefully through that modeling, um, children, um, learn to, to consider it themselves over time is, is just communicating what we're doing. Mm-hmm . You know, when, when, when, when we're on our phones, you know, I think it can clear up so much, um, uh, potentially like problematic, um, interpersonal, confusion so just the simple thing of like, oh, shoot, you know, this email came through, you know, I have to answer this, I'm so sorry.

Mindy Holohan: ( 39:26 )

I'll come back, you know, to what we're doing in however many minutes, or, you know, I'm on my phone. You know, children don't know the difference, especially young children, you know, if we're using it for a recipe, if we're using it to talk, you know, carry on a important, you know, text message conversation with other family members, if we're, or if we are, you know, doing something, using it for entertainment, they all they see is like the adult, not responding or, you know, prioritizing this device. You know, so just taking that step to say what we're doing, why we're doing it, and, um, it's, it's, it's a little thing, but it can make a huge difference, um, in terms of, clarity. And, you know,

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 40:45 )

I think communication is critical. Every aspect, every stage, every age, and every stage

Mindy Holohan: ( 40:54 )

That's right, every age.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 40:55 )

I could not agree with you more in communicating what we're doing and why we're doing it also sets that intention for ourself as a reminder. So I think you get the benefit of really, you know, kind of doing a little self-check also of like, what am I doing on this? Why am I, why am I doing this? Why am I this right now? Am Exactly.

Mindy Holohan: ( 41:17 )

We all had that moment.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 41:17 )

Exactly. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link on how to purchase this amazing book we've been talking about by visiting this show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Jean, Mindy, Pat, thank you so much for being here today and all that you're doing, not only for this week of the young child, but for all weeks, for all families everywhere.

Pat Cantor: ( 41:53 )

Thank you, Hillary. Thank you Hillary. Yeah.

S15 Episode 8: Online Harms Prevention Kit // Julianna Arnold & Dawn Wible

Thu, 26 Mar 2026 05:59:46 GMT

"…the laws that are currently on the books are not adequate to meet the challenges (of protecting kids against online harms)."

~Julianna Arnold

Dawn Wible and Julianna Arnold are co-chairs of the Online Harms Prevention Workgroup with Fairplay. Fairplay for Kids is the nation's leading nonprofit committed to helping children thrive in an increasingly commercialized screen-obsessed culture, and the only organization dedicated to ending marketing to children. The online harms prevention work group believes children and young people deserve to be safe online. Today, we discuss a helpful kit designed to assist parents in getting a handle on all areas of online harms.

Listen to this episode and visit the show notes on the Healthy Screen Habits website to gain access to this valuable resource.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

https://fairplayforkids.org/

https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/onlineharmskit/

https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/s6-episode-8-talk-more-tech-less-dawn-wible

Show Transcript

Hi llary Wilkinson: (00:02)

The theme of this season on the Healthy Screen Habits podcast is from First Screens to Crisis Moments. And my guests today are here to talk about the latter. They're co-leaders of the online Harms prevention work group with Fair Play, the nation's leading nonprofit committed to helping children thrive in an increasingly commercialized screen-obsessed culture, and the only organization dedicated to ending marketing to children. So the online harms prevention work group believes children and young people deserve to be safe online. And today we're going to discuss a very helpful kit designed to help parents get a handle on all areas of online harms. Our two experts today have both been on the podcast before. So welcome back to Healthy Screen Habits, Julianna Arnold, and Dawn Wible. Thank

Julianna Arnold: (01:11)

You, Hillary. Thank you. Thank you Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:13)

Juliana, last week you shared the story of your daughter Coco, and I encourage listeners to go back and familiar familiarize themselves with the, um, the, the work you are doing on behalf of Cocoa and all families affected by social media, as well as the court case that's happening in downtown la. Is there anything, I just kinda wanted, uh, we talked a lot about that, but is there anything that you'd like to add about your involvement with Fair Play or anything along those lines?

Julianna Arnold: (01:51)

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I would be here doing this work if it wasn't for Fair Play. And, you know, I started off with the online harms prevention, uh, work group, kind of just listening, right? Like just learning and listening. And it provides such a amazing opportunity to hear other people who have been doing this longer, whether they're survivor parents or their advocates like Don, who have had experience in, you know, in these things and run their own organizations. So it was just phenomenal to be able to sit in with no pressure, you know, and just listen. And then over time, slowly kind of get more and more involved. And then I was kind of like surprised when they asked me to be co-lead with Don. I was like, oh my God, wow. You know? That's cool. So it's been a fantastic, um, kind of group that's very safe and very welcoming to enter in as a survivor parent when sometimes you just don't know what other people know yet. And you're coming obviously with some baggage and you're there for a little bit of a different reason. But, um, yeah, it's, it's what brought me to this work, really. I have to give it to the online harms prevention work group.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:01)

Mm. Yeah. And, um, in a different note, I can say all of the work groups have a different focus and, um, all are, are very inviting and non-shame-based and very educational as well. So, Dawn, way back in season six of this podcast, we explored the work you do with your organization, which is Talk More Tech Less. And I'll link that episode in the show notes. So anyone who wants to get caught up can go do a quick listen. knowing that you are already passionate about digital wellness and all of these type topics, were there additional things that called you to lead the online harms prevention group?

Dawn Wible: (03:55)

Yeah. Really what you said, Hillary, of it not being a shame atmosphere, that that is so true because technology affects all of us. Mm-hmm . Right? I mean, um, some of the latest statistics are it's near as 22 hours a day and there's 24 hours in a day. So it's such a huge part of our life. Why aren't we putting more conversations around it, more education around it, more safeguards, um, just like we talked about with the trial, every other industry is required to provide guardrails. Why is tech company, um, different? they're producing a product, marketing it to kids, and, um, they should have the same kind of accountability that all the other industries do. And so it's, it's such a huge passion of mine to do the education part, which is what I've done for so long. Um, but being drawn to the online harms prevention work group was, it was just where my work evolved because I was tired of seeing the burden being put on kindergarten kids that I was talking to and parents and seeing the harms influence even my own kids. And so, um, yeah, I was drawn to it and then get to, to get to work alongside the most incredible practitioners and survivor parents and see us working together on these issues is it's a powerful group. And I felt the same way Julianna when I first joined. I was just there to listen and learn, right?

Julianna Arnold: (05:26)

Yeah.

Dawn Wible: (05:27)

Just, it's such a powerful group of activists that know deep down what's right and will go to whatever lengths to make that happen. So I'm, I'm just so honored to be a part of it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:39)

Well, I'm grateful to the, yeah. I'm grateful to the both of you guys. It's, um, it's difficult space to, to, uh, stand in and I admire you both. Um, so as most of you know, I'm an elementary school teacher by trade, so I like to start at the very beginning of any topic being discussed establishing common language and knowing what we're all talking about, right? So using that as kind of a starting ground. Can you define for me what are online harms?

Dawn Wible: (06:21)

Well, when we first started the work group, um, it, there were different specific harms that were in the title. I think, I can't even remember our original title of the group. But we started to notice so many different issues that kids were experiencing online. You know, some of these things are crimes on the street, um, but they weren't crimes on the platforms. And so they are, but they're not being held accountable for 'em. Um, so we started with cyberbullying, which is one of the top issues and harms that, um, are being addressed. But then we started to see that kids were experiencing harm, like, um, harmful challenges, TikTok, viral challenges, dangerous online challenges, um, drug sales on platforms like Julianna shared. And all of these different things started to combine. And we, and we realized this is a bigger issue than cyberbullying alone, or this is a bigger issue than drug sales alone.

Dawn Wible: (07:23)

These are all-encompassing and affecting minors on the platforms. And so we, we ended up actually changing the name to online harm prevention 'cause we realized we're not just dealing with one or two things. This, this is a whole grouping of issues. And that's where we started to target it. And, and really that came from the survivor parents who were joining. We would have a survivor parent join that had a completely new harm that their kid had experienced in dealing with chatbots, or, um, just as technology was evolving, the harms began to, um, add up. And we, we do have a list, uh, uh, online harms list because when we were testifying in court about some of these different issues, they were saying, well, where are these things? We wanna see what harms you're talking about. And so our work group produced, um, a list that has the specific harms and links to resources for families and parents. Um, and then that's where the action kit kind of evolved into.

Julianna Arnold: (08:30)

This issue is cross harms. Like the, it's the say it all revert, we all come from it, or not all, but some of us come from it from different places, different experiences, different harms, different atrocities, horrible things. But in the end, it comes from the same main cause is the fact that there's no guardrails for these companies. And the way that is on their platforms are very harmful. And the laws that are currently on the books are not adequate to meet the challenges. You know, they're very outdated. And so they were, kind of built for a billboard kind of situation, which the internet kind of was in the beginning, right. And now it's just completely morphed into this. And AI has been Dr driving this for, since they developed algorithms back like 10 years ago. So, um, but none of us knew, you know? Right. And that's why I think the, like, the real passion is like, we have new families, like younger family, like they need to know, they need to know. And we hope that once they know they're gonna wanna speak up about it, because that's what we need.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:46)

Yeah. And I think the power and having that list is, it does provide this common language what to use otherwise. I mean, you don't know what to call what's harming your family and you, and there's, that's so well isolating. You feel as though I'm the only person who must have totally ever experiences. But if there's a name, if there's a, like you said this powerful list of words, it's like you identify, oh, that's, that's what I am dealing with at my house.

Julianna Arnold: (10:19)

And I feel like when I met other families that whether our harms were different, but did it all like, kind of focused around their, you know, online, um, activities and these social media platforms. You know, some of them I knew about, some of, I have no idea. And I was just completely shocked. But also when you talk to parents who have lost their kids who are open about it, you know, you find that there's pattern in usage too that kinda leads them down this path. And it's, um, the whole narrative that it's like the parents' faults, you know, we were all parents, but like, really when this all happened, there were no, there were no safety regulations. There was nothing. It was like, oh, it's okay. No. If they're 13, you know, or whatever age there, fine. So we didn't know. And it started off kind of innocent, you know?

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:08)

A lot of the messaging was not only, it's okay, it's good, it's good.

Julianna Arnold: (11:17)

Well, right. They can connect and all this stuff.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:19)

People, they can, yes. So, you know, you,

Julianna Arnold: (11:22)

And, um, so I think, you know, we, we really didn't have enough information to make informed decisions. So we did the best we can to keep our kids safe, but the reality is, the safety tools that they put in place, were always after the fact. Mm-hmm . So it wasn't like they were designed safely. It was like, oh no, we have a problem. Something came up. Oh, now we gotta put a bandaid on it. Right? And the reality is, when you're a parent and you try to, like, as we all know, try to implement that a either it's not easy, b you do it and you're all of a sudden your kids found a way around it because they're smarter than we are, and there's a whole network of them, like talking about how you do that. Um, or yeah. They're just not effective. And so to say that that's good enough is not okay. That's not good enough. You know what I mean? So they can do better. I agree. And the whole thing is like, just design me safely. We don't, we're not against the platforms. I mean, they're here, um, technology's here, you know, AI, but that's the whole scary part is if we don't do something about it now, what's gonna happen down the road? It's gonna be that much more destructive, you know? Right. So,

Dawn Wible: (12:34)

And I I wanna add too, that a lot of times the companies are the ones pushing that narrative that this is on the parents, that this is a, the parents' fault. At the same time, it's not providing that kind of protection for their products,

Julianna Arnold: (12:49)

Right? Yeah. 'cause like, parent controls are usually something that a parent has to actively do and keep in place. So it's not something that's like, by default, it's usually like, you gotta do this, you gotta do that, gotta do that. And then your kid knows perfectly well what mom has done, and they're angry with you when they're a teenager too. So it causes this huge, like, why'd you do this to me? No one else has, you know, it just immediately causes, you know, aja and chaos in the house. And that's what I dealt with. It was like always the issue. And it's like, it's hard enough to parent in general these days, and then to have that,

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:25)

And you think you get your, it's impossible. You think you get your protections in place and then an update comes through and everything.

Julianna Arnold: (13:31)

Oh, yeah. No, no, no. I mean, I've done that. I'm like, how did that happen? I thought I took care of that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:36)

Yeah.

Julianna Arnold: (13:36)

Yeah. And there's not a lot of good places either to go. Like if something's not working, like no one ever responds to you, or if you do report some, you know, illegal or whatever, problematic, you know, um, stuff that you see on the platforms, no one gets back to you. Like, you know, it's just kind of like you're out, you know, writing into the ether, so there's no real, you know, um, customer service, let's put it that way. There's absolutely zero customer service.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:05)

Which is where the action kit comes into play. So we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, let's get into the action kit that's been developed by your group, as well as, um, some of the online harms that you're seeing surrounding AI.

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Ad Break: HSH Presentations - Parent Nights

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I'm speaking with the co-leaders of the online harms prevention work group at Fair Play. So before the break, we talked about the definition of online harms. And now I'd really like to dive into the action kit created by your group. So what is this kit? How'd it come about? Who do you see using it all, all the stuff.

Julianna Arnold: (15:03)

Well, Don's the educator, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass this one over to Don.

Dawn Wible: (15:08)

Well, this was really a product that came from the harms list that we talked about earlier. We started to see that these harms were rising. And, um, we had parents survivor parents in our group that dealt with these specific harms within their stories. And many of them were saying, well, I wish that I did this, or when I was working with law enforcement during this, they said, this would've been helpful. And so the most amazing thing about the action kit is that it is actually made by survivor parents that have experienced those harms, and by child safety experts and law enforcement and different activists that are putting that topic into your hand and saying, here's what our best practices and here's how to help protect your family. Now, of course, we know, like, because of all of our stories and because of the stories within our group, it isn't foolproof because that's just where we are with the internet right now and with phones.

Dawn Wible: (16:12)

And, um, but it is a tool to help bring some prevention. I always say education is prevention. And for somebody to hear, if one person hears, Hey, you don't have to send that picture when that person asks, it might not even be the person in that profile, um, that you think it is. And so for them to hear that simple thing and make an empowered decision with that information, then that can prevent the harm, and that can save lives. And so the, the list is, um, I mean, it's extensive. We started with five, um, five or six, I think it was six, Juliana,

Julianna Arnold: (16:49)

Six I think, I think in the end it was six that first year,

Dawn Wible: (16:52)

And then we added up to, um, 12. So, anywhere from screen overuse, harmful challenges, illegal drug sales online, online sexual exploitation, pornography, depression, suicide, self-harm, and eating disorders. So we have a specific one-pager for each one of those harms. Um, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:13)

Can you break down like what a one-pager looks like? Is it just a definition? Is it where to get help? How is it meant to be used?

Julianna Arnold: (17:30)

Well, we try to keep it like at a simple, as simple as possible. So it would be very accessible to many different groups of people. But really, it's kind of like an informational, like design. Like, okay, like how, what is this, what does it mean to say illicit drugs, you know, online? Like, what does that mean? And then it's kind of like examples of the different types of stuff, types of stuff like that. Because like sexual exploitation, there's never a different ways online that kids are being sexually exploited. And then moving into, um, some examples of like, you know, just to give people real-life examples of like, what that could look like. And, um, some statistics. So that really like hits home. And then going into kind of, um, what you should look out for if, you know, if you see this like, then that might be an indication that we have a problem.

Julianna Arnold: (18:24)

And then how can you talk to your kid about it? Like, it's a hard topic, but like, how can you address 'em? So maybe some prompts, it's like, what kind of questions to ask? How do you do it? Because obviously communication, open communication's the best way to go about it. And then it kind of ends with, you know, resources of like, for, for more information. Um, and as Dawn said, it's like, there's no way we can, it's not foolproof, right? Sure. Like we, all we can do is provide this information to people, make them aware, because nothing's foolproof with these companies because they're so, they have so many resources and so powerful, and obviously no, um, no guardrails in what they're doing. So it's kinda like, I hate telling young parents, you know, like what I really think , which is like, don't let your kid go online. I mean, seriously. But knowing that that's, that's a hard battle to fight with your kids, especially when they get older.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:25)

Sure. And for that reason, and what we talked about earlier, about, um, the online companies, like trying to stay in front of the products they come up with is a lot like digital whack-a-mole. We can't do what the top engineers, designers, coders, et cetera, in the world are doing, right? So, at healthy screen habits, that's why we firmly, firmly stand by the best online protection is your relationship with your child, you know? And so I love that you guys have the conversation starters that even, I mean, even if somebody just, you know, doesn't know how to open a topic on something that they saw on their kids' phone and they're not sure about, I think you guys have put just a, you know, arrow in the quiver of, of, you know, I don't know, just help . So thank you, .

Julianna Arnold: (20:34)

It's not an easy discussion to start. I always said like, it's not that I don't trust you, it's that I don't trust what's out there, because really it's an open portal to everything bad in the world, basically, is what it is, you know? And unfortunately, um, um, it's bigger than, it's bigger than us, and it's bigger than parents. And that's why it's unfair to say like, if something goes wrong that it's the parent's fault. I just,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:16)

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Julianna Arnold: (21:16)

In most cases, I don't see that, you know, being the case.

Dawn Wible: (21:20)

Yeah. It's absolutely bigger. And it's a cultural shift that has happened. So we've had parents say, well, I never gave my kid a phone. And they still experienced these harms because culturally, kids are learning about it. There's challenges being tried at school that kids may not even know. They never saw it on TikTok, but they heard about it because somebody else was talking about it, and then they tried it. So just the fact that they don't even have to have access to these devices, to social media, it, they're still being impacted by it. Because culturally, there's been a shift. And, and we've seen that in the trials too, just the addiction, how that culturally was happening to an entire generation. And we just have to, we have to take a step back sometimes and look at the bigger picture of these harms and then see where our part is. And so I just love that this group is tackling not only the litigations, not only the legislation, but also education and just saying education. Yeah. Need all of it. , we need all of it. Well,

Julianna Arnold: (22:28)

That's it. We need all, it needs to be all a holistic approach. You know what I mean? Because one piece without the other is not going to be meaningful and not gonna be enough. So I think we all realize that, and we all know where we stand, like where our area is of where we can have the most impact and respect each other that we know, like without these different parts. And, you know, it, it, we would never be able, we will never be able to, you know, tackle this, you know, huge, huge, huge, huge challenge, um, to society. And it's not like, not just us, it's all over the world, you know? Right,

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:05)

Right. So I think one of the biggest areas that we're all talking about in digital wellness and parenting right now is, um, with tech is AI. And so can you guys, just because it is a new, a a new-ish topic, and, um, although as you mentioned earlier, Juliana, like that's essentially what the algorithms are. So we've actually been dealing with AI for years and years and years, but now it's, it looks different. It feels different now that it's gotten into this interactive type component of it. And we're seeing online, kids that have involved themselves with relationships, you know, and I mean, they're, but people are fostering friendships with chatbots. Are there types of harms that you see around AI specifically that are different?

Dawn Wible: (24:12)

Yeah. Um, well, I just think about this last year. I was really honored to be at the White House to see the Take It Down act signed into law, which is the first federal leg legislation of its kind, because it does require the platforms to take down images, including AI images that are non-consensual intimate images. Um, and that came from high school girls this harm happened to them and Texas. And, um, they were the, the boys in the school took pictures outta the yearbook, ran their photos through nudify apps, which shouldn't be allowed, um, in the app store for minors. But they not only are allowed, they're advertised to minors. Um, and they used those apps to sexually exploit their classmates. And there wasn't a law to protect them with AI being the images, but the girls experienced the harm the same way they would've, and with their own bodies. And nobody realized that. Yeah. And so to be able to be informed on some of these issues of sexual exploitation happening, but not even realizing that, you know, this was before the explosion with grok undressing women.

And so the girls testified and pushed and pushed and pushed and got this, um, law essentially updating sexual exploitation online and non-consensual, non, uh, consensual intimate images updated to include AI. And we are seeing that happen on, um, CSAM child sexual abuse material. Um, definitely in those issues. But then also interacting with chatbots. I mean, if you open Snapchat, one of the first contacts that you can, the first person to contact is not a person. It's your AI bot, “my AI”, or any of your friends are listed. And so it's being targeted, um, to minors and, and they know what they're doing. And so being able to put that kind of prevention in front of kids to help them understand the difference between a human and a bot, even in kindergarten, second grade, um, it's important content to, inform them about.

Julianna Arnold: (26:42)

Yeah, definitely. Especially because these companies have pushed to place their products in these schools without even the, um, approval of parents. So like, your kids being exposed to this in school, they're in elementary school, and all of a sudden they come home with their, you know, school-issued laptop or Chromebook or whatever it is. And all of a sudden I've heard parents say, like, all of a sudden I heard this like, oh, mom, the AI chat, wants to ask me, how about how, like, how am I doing on my homework? I see you're doing your homework. Do you want help in solving the problem or do you just wanna know how to solve it? Like, I mean, you know, and, and that's like a basic thing, but they're getting normalized. And once they're normalized, that's when kids start to think they're safe.

Julianna Arnold: (27:29)

And that's the problem. I do advocate with, um, a group of parents whose kids have either been harmed or, or died due to their experiences with these AI chatbots and, um, the conversations that we're seeing, the transcripts of the conversations that we're seeing, the sexual sexuality of some of it, or the sexualization, um, a lot of like helping with suicidal ideation. If the kid even mentioned something about suicide, they're like providing them like, well, how this is how you can do it and do this, and like, the steps and, you know, and really pushing them rather than think like, Hey, whoa, you know, and they walk down this path and they pick up the language of the kids so they learn like how they talk. So it's like you, you really feel like you're really talking with someone who's your peer.

Julianna Arnold: (28:24)

The vulnerability of these kids is that they're isolated already because of social media, right. So they're not having the interpersonal relationships that we may have had. And then on top of it, now they're exploiting that even further by saying, well, you know, kids don't have enough friends, so they need their chatbot friends. And then these chatbots are not trained to be like kid age. They're absorbing all of this data and information, which is totally age-inappropriate and damaging. And, um, and like, no one's doing it. Like they've been released out there, like they're safe, you know, 13 and over, you know, they're good or whatever.

Julianna Arnold: (29:15)

And we know the age thing just a joke too, because they have no way of knowing whether a kid is entering in their, the, you know, they're being truthful about the age that they are. And so we have a lot of kids under, under 13, under eight on all of these platforms, which is why it's so scary too. So, you know, the reality is, um, we, we need to immediately be able to like, um, figure out the situation and put guardrails on these companies so they can develop their product safely. It's not that we're totally anti-tech; it's just like the way they've been doing it is just wrong.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:52)

Yeah. You know, totally wrong. Agreed. Agreed. So not,

Dawn Wible: (29:56)

Yeah, I was just gonna echo, we're not against innovation. It is so realistic for them to be able to put up these safeguards when they're trying to push to minors. We think about the, the internet age was the information age. It started as then it was the attention economy monetized. And Tristan Harris recently said, now it's the attachment age. And it's really where, like you said, Julianna targeting them to being able to be attached to bots. Mm-hmm . Versus let's innovate, let's use this in, in a way to innovate. No one's against that we are against them targeting to miners.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

Julianna Arnold: (30:38)

Like, it just seems like they just are going for the lowest common denominator, the easiest way that they can make money so they can continue. Like now, like chat GPT talking about having ads. Well, that's how you monetize, right? Like back in the day, I was like, how are they gonna monetize this? When they came out with Facebook in 2008? You know, I think they were still figuring it out too. They were like, being valued is very, but everyone's like, that value doesn't really mean anything. And then they're like, oh, now we have the answer. And so now they're just trying to replicate that with AI, which is super dangerous because, um, it's at the expense of all of us really. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Especially our kids.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:14)

And historically, when you look back at any revolution, say you say like the industrial revolution or, you know, any other revolution, you look at and who, who were the people that paid the greatest price? And it was our most vulnerable population. Well, I mean, we all know what happened to kids in the industrial ages when they were shoving them inside, you know, machinery, because they were little and they had little hands, you know? And it's the same thing; the same analogy can be applied today.

Julianna Arnold: (31:44)

Today. That's a good analogy, Hillary, you know? Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Julianna Arnold: (31:48)

Is. And it's the shock that at this point in time of where we are in the 21st century, that like you see, not much has changed. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:57)

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys have any, um, conversation starters, just so we can leave families with like an actionable tool? Because AI is so new, I think a lot of parents don't even know how to, like, what do they even say? Do you guys have conversation starters around that?

Dawn Wible: (32:26)

Definitely on the one pager, we, we have an AI one pager, and there's specific conversation starters on that. But I think the easiest one to have from a kindergartner all the way up to an adult is for people to remember that these are tools and they're talking to a robot. That's huge because everybody's getting so comfortable with open ai with chat GPT with Gemini, they're getting, because they're designed that way to connect, we're seeing the AI psychosis. And so having that reminder can, keeping that in front of people, um, that you can use this as a tool, not minors, but, um, not young kids. But when you're talking to other people, you can use this as a tool, but it is not a, it is not a human. And, um, we, we were having to tell elementary and middle schoolers that about being able to interact with it on school devices. This is not a, this is not your friend or your buddy. They're not safe. They're not designed, they're not ready for kids to be interacting with them at this.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:32)

And I just think, I mean, you are dealing, when you look at it from developmentally appropriate practice, I mean, you're dealing with kids who are just years away from object permanence. I mean, they don't, it's just, it's insane to me that we're allowing AI to, to enter any of these zones.

When we come back, I'm gonna ask Dawn and Juliana for their healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break : HSH Workbook

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I'm speaking with the leaders of the online harms prevention work group at Fair Play, Juliana Arnold, and Dawn Wible on every episode, as you ladies know of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit, which is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dawn Wible: (35:35)

Yeah. So I always say talking more about these issues because we need to normalize these conversations. It's happening among kids', peers, it's happening in their schools. And if you can be that place where it's happening in your home and you're normalizing it, you're, we are able to talk about some of these things with them, then they will feel more supported, hopefully to be able to come to you about the issues. And also, I think developmentally appropriately, um, sharing the stories with them and letting 'em know that this happens. I have three boys and we've talked extensively about Sextortion. They're the ages that are targeted that 14 through 17. And so we talk about it, Hey, if you see a profile picture that looks like a really pretty girl, don't, you know, you can always come to us no matter what. Um, which some of my dear survivor friends have told me, continue to say that no matter what, that they can come to you. But like I said, we're just, we're up against power and we're up against a lot of money and this huge industry. And so to be able to band together with your community and to be able to, um, raise these concerns and talking about these issues is, is just so important. Mm-hmm

Julianna Arnold: (37:00)

. Yeah, I mean, I totally second that. I think like having these conversations at age appropriate times, but starting young. And so when you don't want them to have a phone, they're kind of like aware of, well, like this is why mom doesn, we have a phone. Because like when they're younger, they're more open to that. They haven't already formed their opinions. And the other thing I just tack on that I see people having success with is when they're at school finding, um, like-minded individuals or families who may want to bond with you. So you have a group of people rather than being the lone individual that their kid is not getting access. And there's been some success that when those families do do that, then it's kind of like, okay, they can be more comfortable that they don't have a device, and then maybe that will become the norm.

Julianna Arnold: (37:43)

You know what I mean? Especially as we fight to get, you know, um, devices out of out of schools, um, I think they'll become easier, you know, because I think the problem is the schools have started to rely, I had started to rely on them so heavily that if your kid did go to school without any kind of device, they were at a loss and they weren't gonna get the same access to education as other kids. So, um, I think open communication, um, starting at a young age. And, um, I, I think really going to the extent of trying to explain as best as you can, the whys and what's really happening, you know, as age appropriate and not just putting down bans, because I think that's when kids just wanna like, you know, do the opposite. They're like, mom told me I can't do it.

Julianna Arnold: (38:30)

I wanna do it. You know, like, those are the two things I think really like, you know, open lines of communication and acceptance, you know, understanding that they're going to, they're in a place, it's not like they wanna do something wrong, but it's kind of being presented to them on a platter of all these things that they could do that might not be super healthy. So it's not like making them feel bad if they did do something, but letting them feel like, yeah, this isn't your fault. Mm-hmm . You know, and it's gonna be okay and we're gonna figure it out, you know?

Hillary Wilkinson: (40:00)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this episode as well as a link to that online Harms Prevention action kit, as well as the previous episode with Dawn about Talk More Tech Less all by visiting the show notes for, this episode. Do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Dawn Juliana, thank you for all that you're doing to build that, um, that just, you know, powerful cohort of voices that are continuing to support people through, through the hardest times and teach people who are, who are coming up through it.

Julianna Arnold: (40:48)

Thank you, Hillary, thank you so much for all that you do, Hillary in getting the information out there. Yeah.

S15 Episode 7: Online Harms and Prevention Group at Fairplay // Julianna Arnold

Fri, 20 Mar 2026 03:51:36 GMT

"These companies knew the harm that their platforms were causing, but intentionally designed them to be addictive so they could increase their viewership among young users."

~Julianna Arnold

Companies are not allowed to knowingly produce harmful products without posting consumer warnings.

As internal documents and emails social media executives get exposed it becomes clear that these companies know exactly how dangerous their products are for young or vulnerable brains. Today's guest, Julianna Arnold with Fairplay for Kids, tells us about a current court case in Los Angeles and how survivor parents are continuing to fight for all children.

Resources

Our episode with Frances Haugen, Facebook whistleblower and certified Healthy Screen Habits hero: HSH Podcast Season 8 Episode 2

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Today I am doing something a little bit different if you're familiar with healthy screen habits, you know that we are located in Southern California. And to have something that is happening on our doorstep that is so important, it's difficult not to highlight it. And this is just, I would like to kind of do a brief catch up on what has been going on in Los Angeles at the Landmark trial over whether tech companies like Instagram and YouTube can be held liable for allegedly promoting a harmful product in addicting users to their platforms. There are many of the families who have paid the greatest price, and they are the ones that are, you see with the signs supporting demonstrators and providing faces to the deadly consequences of these platforms. And a lot of them are voices that you've heard here. So today I'm joined by Juliana Arnold, a parent who is marching the front line. And Julianna, can you tell us about your connection to this issue, especially as Coco's mom?

Juliannna Arnold: (01:26)

Sure. Um, well, obviously like none of us really, you know, thought we'd be in this position, uh, ever or that we would become advocates or activists or whatever you wanna call us, but we are. And so, um, I, um, got involved in this, obviously because I lost my daughter Coco, um, in 2022. She was just a couple weeks after her 17th birthday when she was, um, approached, uh, unsolicited by a man on Instagram who befriended her and pretended to be like a big brother friend and got her trust. He groomed her, lured her to meet him, said he had a, a Percocet, something that was good for anxiety, and she made a bad decision. And she left the house at that morning at like 11 o'clock, saying she was going thrifting with her friend, and she never came home. Um, whatever she was given, uh, the pill was not, not Percocet, it was Fentanyl.

Juliannna Arnold: (02:25)

And, and she died from fentanyl poisoning. So that brought me to try to figure out what I wanted to do. You know, like my whole world was completely like, blown up, and I really didn't know what would have meaning for me after that. And all I knew though, is I was still angry about so many things, but the thing that always had like, really angered me was like watching what was going on online, both with, the way that it becomes so addictive to my daughter. And I thought for like, certain types of kids that are vulnerable, whether that means they have, you know, something like ADD or a learning disorder or something. Not that it doesn't affect, you know, other kids 'cause they're all vulnerable, but really it really hooks these kids because it's like they found their place where they can get that constant, you know, dopamine rush and everything's new and everything's fun, and it's just very easy for them to kind of fall into that trap.

Juliannna Arnold: (03:29)

And that's what we saw. And um, also, I, I saw what was going on, especially on Snapchat with, you know, um, a lot of the drug stuff 'cause Coco had tried, um, marijuana. And as soon as that happened, I saw a flood of dealers come in with ads and videos, and I was constantly reporting them. And I basically cut down her Snapchat time to like two minutes to say hello to friends. And that was it, so I was monitoring things, but as we all know, I mean, it's like whack-a-mole. You can't keep track. Maybe they had more than one account. You know, they're better at this than we are. And, um, I did the best I could, but it was so frustrating, and I kept on thinking like, if I'm feeling this way, you know, um, then what are other families feeling that maybe don't have access to the resources?

Juliannna Arnold: (04:23)

I mean like maybe education or the language or, you know, not just financial, you know? And it really concerned me. And then, I met, a fellow, survivor mom, Deb Schmill, who, uh, we had a mutual friend and Deb's like, Hey, come on, like, join us. It was just kind of, it was like, I think it was late, late 2002. And I, um, got involved with the Online Harms prevention group and then started learning about this. And before I knew it, uh, we were taking a trip to DC to advocate for the Kids Online Safety Act. And then from there it was just like natural, like it would just kind of slow that I, I knew I was in the right place doing the right thing, even if I didn't want to be in this group. Right. Um, I knew that if I was gonna advocate and wanted to do something meaningful, um, this is what it was going to be.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:17)

Yeah. Yeah. And it was right in your backyard. Why? I mean, you mentioned DC, which is of course the, the place where you think to go for federal legislation. Why was downtown LA chosen as the location for this case?

Juliannna Arnold: (06:18)

I mean, that's a good question. well California does have, you know, a reputation in their superior courts to being more open to a lot of these issues, you know, so I think there may be had been, but what this case is, is really a ca case is just, it's just, um, basically the cases that are involved in this are, um, from California. And, um, and it's hard. The JCCP versus the MDL is a different; they're not a class action, they're like a group lawsuit where you have one plaintiff. And so we're not the plaintiff in this case. Mm-hmm . Um, there's, you know, one plaintiff and then there's the rest of the group, which we have are like almost a couple thousand cases cases, but this, she's been chosen as the bellwether case. So that bellwether case will get decided alone, totally separate from us, but that would then inform what was gonna happen with the rest of the cases that are in that JCCP group.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:26)

Okay. So that would act as the precedent case.

Juliannna Arnold: (07:31)

So what I heard, I mean, I'm not, I'm not an attorney obviously, and I probably probably can't explain it clearly as well as other people. But under my understanding, because the MDL is a national case. Mm. Um, and the JCCP is state by state, so it's a state case. Okay. So, but both of the cases that the first two, that the two bellwether cases that are gonna be heard, this, you know, spring and summer one is a J-C-C-P that's here down in Los Angeles.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:02)

What does JCCP stand for? Do you know?

Juliannna Arnold: (08:04)

I should, I was like, yeah, I, I, let me look it up. I'm so bad I should know this. Oh,

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:08)

No. Like

Juliannna Arnold: (08:08)

Ridiculous that I don't know this. Um, I do know it, but I can't remember it. Oh, that's a whole other

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:14)

Thing. No, that's fine. Clearly I don't know it, so that's why I'm having to ask.

Juliannna Arnold: (08:18)

Okay. So JCCP is a judicial counsel coordinated proceeding. It's a legal mechanism that consolidates multiple civil cases involving common questions of law or fact into one superior court for efficiency. It's used for complex litigation like mass torts, wildfires, or class actions.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:39)

Okay. And it's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the judge in LA it was the, the previous case, he kind of put a pin in it and said, this is a not a section two 30 issue. This is a product safety issue. Exactly. Right. Am I right understanding?

Juliannna Arnold: (09:13)

No, no, no. It's like all taking the, I mean, the approach that they've taken, because most of the cases that have even tried to go and get, you know, move forward, um, immediately get, you know, um, sent out of for, don't even make it there because of 230. So the, um, social media companies, uh, will plead, you know, 230. So therefore they don't have any liability for any content, as you know, on that platform. So, yeah. Sorry. You can't sue us. And like with that case, I know that judge was like, Hmm, I'm not really sure that that's really the case, you know, and that's the Neville vs Snapchat and then this lawyer, Carolyn Kool, she also was very open to wanting to hear this case. So at every moment, you know, the tech companies were trying to find a way out of this, right.

Juliannna Arnold: (10:11)

Trying to like, play every card they had. And she just repetitively said, no. Like, I'm, I, I mean, this is a product liability case. I'm gonna hear it as a product liability case. Yeah. This is not a content case. This is about the way that they designed their platforms, and that's how it's been, you know, carried out in, in court. Because anything that comes like up about content, you know, they're like, okay, that's 230. We're not talking about content. Right. So it's really not focused on content, which of course is difficult to like, you know, maneuver, but that's what they've been doing. And it's solely about the design of the platforms and that these companies, um, knew the harm that their platforms are causing, but intentionally designed them to be addictive so they could increase their viewership among young users and then increase their profitability because they've monetized their platforms by the number of eyeballs they have.

Juliannna Arnold: (11:07)

So they can sell that to advertisers, and hence that's where the profit's coming from. Right. So, um, so that's kind of been the difference. And I guess maybe in California they've found judges that are more open to hearing these cases. Mm-hmm . Um, so this case and the Neville case is now in discovery as well. But those are some of the first ones that have been able to go to discovery. And that's what's so meaningful is just 'cause when they go to discovery, um, these companies will try to fight back and not produce documentation like internal documents. Mm-hmm . But they've been forced to because she's been very much like, no, let's, let's, we gotta see what we gotta see. We've gotta gotta, like, you've gotta act. There's, you don't get any special preference. And so she's been really, um, amazing in just wanting to hear this case in, um, in an unbiased way, but also not taking in 230 where the plaintiff has no case whatsoever.

Juliannna Arnold: (12:12)

Right? Right. So, um, so now all this information's coming out, which is crazy because it's like a lot of the anecdotal information that Survivor parents and other parents that kids have been harmed on the platforms have been talking about. But it's really providing the internal documentation that is really starting to, um, show that this in fact was an intentional design feature and that up to the highest level. And, um, you know, and there's just no never been anything to stop them because they have sign full immunity behind 230. So, right. It's a unique approach to take on a pri product liability versus just a, you know, a, a content, you know, um, right approach.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:02)

Right. So just to bring everybody up, in case you're not familiar with what Section 230 is, um, for years, like Julianna has said, for years, social media companies disputed allegations that they harm children's mental health through these deliberate design choices to addict kids to the platforms and failed to protect them from predators and dangerous content, despite the reports from inside whistleblowers, ie: Francis Haugen and many others who have come forward since then. Um, you can go back and listen to Francis' interview with me earlier. in an earlier season, and families who quite frankly have lived and know the difference and social media platforms continue to hide behind this section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act, which protects tech companies from liability for material posted on their platforms. So it's called, it's also referred to as like the Blackboard Rule because it treats online platforms like a public chalkboard or a bulletin board, rather than say like a newspaper editor. It establishes that these platforms are just intermediaries. They're not publishers, they're not legally liable for content written by third parties. So like, if anything, if there's a blackboard in a coffee shop and somebody writes something illegal on it, the owner isn't liable for that message. And that's what Big Tech has been hiding behind. And that's why this product, like, like the twist in it being product, not, um, content is so key.

Juliannna Arnold: (15:06)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:08)

Juliana, is there, were there any aha moments or turning points for you? I know Mark Zuckerberg came up and spoke, and I, my heart is heavy for you. Like, I, I, were there any things?

Juliannna Arnold: (15:26)

I mean, it felt like, I mean, I was sitting there, so the first week they didn't have a lottery system. They had first come, first served. And so that Monday when, you know, we were together, um, the opening statements, it was first-come, first served, but it wasn't as crowded. So we were able to get in, we got there very early in like, the very early morning, I'd say like four o'clock in the morning. And we were able to like go in line. It was very calm and we were able to get in. And then, um, we were not there on Tuesday. And the word on the street was that whether it was true or not, that the tech companies had gotten placeholders, like people to come and stand in line so other people would not get the seats. 'cause there's only 15 seats in this at the beginning it was 12 and now it's like extended to 15. So it's a very limited number of seats.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:21)

I had no idea.

Juliannna Arnold: (16:22)

So we had Survivor parents in town for a couple of weeks. Um, they kind of shifted in and out, but yeah, we had survivor parents, so we, um, decided, 'cause we had heard that there, the court had started talking about going through a lottery, you know, system, which would mean it's like luck of the draw. Like it doesn't be difference how early you get there. So when we knew that Adam Mosseri was testifying on that, this was two weeks ago Wednesday, um, we decided like the night before, like, okay, well we really, really, really felt strongly that the first thing he saw was a whole row of Survivor parents just present mm-hmm . And, um, in order to do that, it turned out that we really, uh, we got hotels downtown. We were planning on going there maybe at two, but when we drove by, we saw a couple people there.

Juliannna Arnold: (17:18)

So we're like, oh, we're going now. So basically, um, it was 11, 11 Lori shot ran up. We were like, woo, we got it. Like, we're here. And thank goodness we did. And I don't think we would've got in. But that next morning when, um, Adam Mosseri testified, um, we were the front row and he was looking at, you know, 12 survivor parents. Um, and I think he knew exactly who he was looking at. Like, it felt palpable that he understood. So we wanted to send that message that we're not gonna be so as easily, you know, you know, distracted, I should say. And so that was fantastic. I think that really, even though it was hard and we were tired, and it really kind of gave us a sense of like power, I think that we can fight back and we're not gonna back down.

Juliannna Arnold: (18:13)

Um, which was, which was good. Now his testimony didn't really give us much to go by. I mean, they've all been very coached and trained to answer these questions in a way where they're not perjurying themselves, but they're not really answering the questions. Mm-hmm . And we're finding that with every executive that's been, you know, on the stand, that they all have a way of like, not lying, quote unquote Right. But not also telling the truth. And so these documents are put in front of them, and quite often they were compared to maybe a testimony that they did at a congressional hearing mm-hmm . Especially with Mosseri and Zuckerberg. Right. Because they referenced a lot with Zuckerberg, um, the January 2024, um, hearing in which, um, he was forced to apologize to the survivor parents. And we actually all were there with our, you know, photos of our kids.

Juliannna Arnold: (19:15)

And, um, they just managed to skirt the issues. I mean, it was obvious in my opinion, you know, what they were doing. It seemed very like, okay, this is what you guys always do. You come out with some, like after they get busted for something or something comes out that's negative the next day, there's always some big press release or some new safety product or Adam, a series on, you know, the Today Show talking about, you know, Instagram teams and, you know, so it was more of the same, which, um, which I don't know if I expected anything differently, but what is out there now are these documents Mm. That they can't refute that they exist. So they're still there and they're gonna keep on, there's like thousands of more that are being released just this week and with every trial. 'cause there'll be I think eight, um, bellwether trials in the next two years mm-hmm .

Juliannna Arnold: (20:11)

Um, more and more documentation's gonna get released. And so that's kind of our hope is that as parents and legislators start to see more and more of what really the inner workings were going on in these companies, that they're not gonna be able to, A, take money from these companies or B, work with them in a, you know, a, a compatible way, but also they're just gonna have to, you know, put their foot down and do their jobs, which is, you know, put guardrails on these companies so we can keep our kids safe and force them to design products that, you know, are not deadly or harmful, to our kids. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:57)

Thank you for doing the hard work for showing up day after day. Oh,

Juliannna Arnold: (21:14)

No, it's actually quite fascinating. I was so totally hooked. I mean, talk about addicting. I was, was like, I was hooked. Oh my God. I was, I was totally hooked. Yeah. Like, I was like, because also the litigator for the plaintiff is so, um, he, he was trained as a pastor and he's from Texas. He, um, just presents everything in a way he is telling a story and he, he, he very much understands that different people learn in different ways. So some it's auditory, some it's visual, you know, so some of it's tactical. So he uses all these different styles to get the message across and really has a, an amazing way to make something that's probably pretty complicated, pretty simple.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:27)

Oh, that's a gift. Right.

Juliannna Arnold: (22:29)

Oh my God. So like, he's

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:31)

Taking the complex and making it understandable. That is,

Juliannna Arnold: (22:34)

And he does it. He's such a like, great delivery too. Mm-hmm. Like, you just wanna listen to him. So I think it's been fascinating to see him at work, you know, and taking these difficult issues you really gotta think about how you're gonna approach this because it's like a fine line to not go into content. Absolutely. You know, it's really like you have to keep it really narrow. And even today something came up about, um, bullying and stuff, and that's really content. Content, you know what I mean? So it's like you gott a steer away from that, even though we know we have a huge issue, you know, with a lot, especially the illegal content that's, on these platforms, which they're not doing anything about.

S15 Episode 6: Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Teens and Tweens // Amy Adams LSCW/PPSC & Jeanne Sprague M.Ed

Wed, 11 Mar 2026 07:00:01 GMT

"We want kids to live their best lives with technology. This is a driver’s education handbook for their phone (so they can do that)."

-Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC & Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed

Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Tweens and Teens is what we, the founding members of Healthy Screen Habits, wish we had when our oldest kids were getting their first devices. Learn all about it when you listen to this week’s podcast with the authors: Amy Adams and Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Get the Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Teens and Tweens

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:46)

When we talk to families and parents about healthy screen habits an overwhelming sentiment that gets expressed, is how alone people feel in this challenge to keep tech from overtaking their family life. I am so excited to have today a tool that can literally change the trajectory of the talk about tech in your house. The ladies who wrote and designed it are the best in the field. And I can say this with complete confidence because I am lucky enough to work with them every day. Amy Adams and Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague are the authors of Healthy Screen Habits workbook for tweens and teens. It's just dropped and we are going to hear all about it. The three of us plus Juliana Lorenzen founded Healthy Screen Habits back in 2018 because we were those parents feeling alone in the field, and we needed to come together. As a school social worker. Amy Adams knows what challenges tweens are facing every day. And as an educational psychologist, Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague understands how tweens and teens learn and retain information together. They have pulled their expertise plus their knowledge of motherhood to create a workbook that it's okay. I know I'm biased, but it is awesome and it resonates with tweens and teens. I am so lucky not just to call them colleagues, but also my very good friends. Welcome to the mic, Amy and Jeannie!

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed, Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (04:01)

. Hello. Hello. Hillary .

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:06)

It's so fun to have you guys here. So I, uh, let's just, we need to give a lot of background on this because this was not a, um, this was not a resource that was jumped into lightly. And I think it's best to start with kind of like what, you know, we're gonna take a little page outta Maria from the sound of the music. We're gonna start at the very beginning. And what was the motivation behind writing this book?

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (04:40)

All right. Well, this is Amy. And you know, they say that necessity is the mother of invention. And for Jeannie and I, we both have four kids, and our kids are roughly the same ages. So we've got teenagers, you know, from ages 12 to 19. We've got eight kids between us, between those ages. So years ago, as our kids were becoming into that phase of teenagehood, and this is an, you know, technology has changed so rapidly in the last 20 years since we've become parents, we've seen huge changes in technology. So, just to give you kind of background on that, my second child was born the year that the iPhone was born. And so as my kids got a little bit older heading towards that teenage hood, we both kind of realized, Hey, this is coming at us and we have to figure out how we want our children to interface with technology.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (05:37)

Now, this was kind of when everything was just really, really new. And so there wasn't a lot out there, and it was kinda the wild, wild west. And so I looked, Jeannie looked, we both looked for resources that we could buy. 'cause you know, that's what you do when you need something. You, you go online, you buy something, you buy a book. But there was nothing really out there to teach our children what to do with these phones. We didn't have a lot of guidance back then. And I remember thinking, well, I want someone just to tell me what to do. And then the thought popped into my head of like, well, maybe that's my job. Maybe I need to figure this out. And so Jeannie and I teamed up and we started doing all this research about all aspects of technology and phones and all things related to that and to our kids.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (06:27)

And just came up with important topics that we wanted to know more about. Well, what started as a personal project kind of for our families turned into something more. We thought, well, you know, so it was originally written in mind for the audience of our children. And then we thought, well, this is actually beneficial. This could benefit a lot of other people's children. 'cause if I'm a mom and I'm having these, you know, desires to help my kids, I'm sure other moms want to help their kids too. And so we wanted to create something really awesome and fun that kids would actually want to look at. 'cause we understand that is a real thing with kids in this age category, and hence came healthy screen habits, you know, um, for teens and for tweens and teens, a training workbook to help you use your phone wisely. So this has been a many year long project, and we've worked very closely together to make this happen.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:23)There was a whole lot of chat, uh, when this whole process began about whether it should be an online course or a physical book. I mean, we talked about this back and forth and back and forth. Why did you ultimately decide on a physical book?

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (07:45)

Well, this is Jeanie. Um, we thought of a book first because like Amy was saying that that's our go-to, um, it seemed like that was something that would be easily accessible. But as we started down the road of online course, a lot of it just wasn't gelling. It wasn't coming together the way that we had hoped. Um, we wanted to make it interesting and interactive, but as we looked at what we were producing, it, it really dawned on us that the online course format was very temporary. It wasn't gonna be something that would be lasting. And one day I, um, happened to look at my daughter's book that she had another resource, and she had written a little note to herself reminding herself that if she looked at this book for the help that she needed, it could be a great, uh, reminder for her in the future.

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (08:59)

And just that was really impactful to me that she kept this particular book. She held it dear. She didn't read it every day, but when she needed the extra support, she went back to it. It was something that she could refer back to. It was this tangible thing for her that she just kind of had kicking around in her room, but it was there when she needed it. And I turned to Amy and I said, this is what needs to happen. We need to have a resource that kids can go back to, that they can refer to when they have a question. And we're just really proud of the fact that it can be that go-to resource for not only our kids, but so many out there that need that sort of driver's education manual for smartphones. Something that they can keep going back to over and over again.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:06)

I remember us having lots of conversations about how it seemed a little disingenuous to not offer an unplugged resource , right? When we're Healthy Screen Habits. It was like, yeah, learn healthy screen habits by spending more time on screen. And it was, yes, it felt very disingenuous. So I just feel like the physical nature of this workbook, um, speaks to kind of that, that common sense voice and really like who we are. Now, all of that aside, there are lots at this point, there are lots of different courses, books, resources, different things that people, uh, um, can access and are available to families sort of seeking this digital balance. What makes Healthy Screen Habits for Tweens and Teens Workbook a resource that is different from anything that's out there?

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (11:31)

Okay, so this is Amy again. And what we wanted to do here was we wanted to have something super engaging. And what engaging looks like for kids is something bright, something colorful, something that wasn't just gonna talk at them and tell them what to do. So that's why we designed it in a workbook form. Um, so that it is literally has questions, has things for them to think about things that they can actually, write down. And then, like Jeanie mentioned, is a tangible thing that they can continue to go back to over and over again. They can see what notes they made. But it's more than that actually. 'cause we, with Jeannie and I, both of us have extensive background in child development. As you know, as you mentioned, I'm a school social worker, Jeannie's an educational psychologist. And so for us, it was really, really important to speak to that whole child because we know development doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (12:26)

We know that, you know, figuring out how to use a phone exists in the concept of the development of the whole child. And we also know that the most important task at this stage of development, which is adolescence, is identity formation. So as we're, we are thinking about this, well, how does this all, how do we weave this all together? How do we weave in kids trying to figure out who they are, trying to go towards their best life while also trying to navigate using a phone? And so that's a really key component, is that we really feel that ours is a really comprehensive guide to their whole development and how that they learn to use that phone in a, in a manner that is consistent with also, you know, being true to themselves and figuring out who they are and what they wanna accomplish in, in their life.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (13:18)

Um, so it's really, we're super excited about that. In fact, that's how we start just kind of asking them some basic questions about who they are before we even delve into anything with the phone. We talk about what things they like to do and what are their big plans and who they want to become to try to get those kind of juices flowing. And then we kind of teach them about how phones can fit into that in a very healthy and positive way.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (14:17)

This is a workbook that you would buy one per child because they're gonna be filling it out individually Um, and, you know, one of my very most favorite chapters, which I think is speaks to kind of our whole child's, you know, approach here, is we have a chapter called, What to Do When You’re Feeling Meh. And because we recognize that there are gonna be times, especially when you're a teenager, that you don't always feel great. And so what do you do instead of just turning to your phone? What can you do? We talk about the importance of exercise. We talk about the importance of relationships and friendships and doing good and helping other people. And, and we really feel like this is the best approach for helping, um, our kids develop into healthy and happy adults who can use a phone for good.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:08)

Yeah. And I'm just gonna, um, interject here that, uh, I, I think what you guys have done a beautiful job of also is maintaining, really our primary goal at Healthy Screen Habits is to come from a place of help and hope. We always strive for that positive spin, but we also make sure that anything we present is research backed. And talking about your backgrounds underlines that. There are, I mean, it's four pages of references and resources, scientific articles in the back where everything is linked too. So it's not, I mean, yes, there is a lot of anecdotal stuff that comes through raising, you know, our kids and a lot of common sensical type approach, but we also have a strong background in science-based research.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (16:44)

Hillary, thank you for underlying that point. Exactly. Because we come from a place of positivity. Yes. And we come from a place of wanting kids to feel excited. We come from a place of wanting kids to live their best lives with technology.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:02)

We have to take a break, but when we come back, we're gonna dive deeper into the pages of the new Healthy Screen Habits workbook for Tweens and Teens, and find out some more of this good stuff.

Ad Break : HSH Workbook for Tweens and Teens

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:09)

Just as you wouldn't let a new driver take the wheel of a car without proper training, using smartphones requires instruction. Healthy Screen Habits now has a workbook designed for tweens and teens to help them navigate the rules of the road for smartphone use. This workbook is what we as moms, as parents wish we had when our oldest kids were getting their first devices. It's approachable, fun, it teaches kids the essentials of phone safety, and it's fantastic. Today the authors are here, Amy Adams and Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague. What do you guys like to do when we are not collectively hand hammering out healthy screen habits, content and, uh, talking to talking and educating families?

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (19:13)

Well, this is Jeannie again. Surprise, surprise. I like to read. So I, but unlike, uh, my colleague Amy, I am not always diving into the, uh, academic world of books. I like to space out a little bit with some, uh, fiction that's, you know, takes me to a different place,

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:34)

Yes, I understand.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (19:37)

And I am always in forever trying to get my kids to go on bike rides with me. My dream day is to spend a day at the beach riding bikes on the strand. And I'm hoping to have that happen soon. My kids are always, you know, laughing at me for having this desire, but they sometimes, you know, sometimes will indulge me in that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:03)

Yes. And you guys are kind of selling yourself short, because I have eaten at both of your houses. And Amy is also a very accomplished chef . Oh,

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (20:13)

Facts. So true.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:16)

And Jeanie has a design element that is amazing. Her home is welcome and warm and inviting and hip!

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:28)

Okay. So let's, let's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna inject a little bit of a Wilkinson family in here. And anytime I'm trying to introduce new systems or approach, like sensitive topics, I appreciate having a step in approach I can follow or sort of like a, a “how to” script that I can insert myself in, but just kind of like, how do I begin this? So I'm just wondering, do you have any helpful tips on how parents can introduce this book to their kids and not have it immediately shot down? Because I can see that that would be like, like pushback, right? So how, do you have any helpful tips on introducing this book?

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (21:20)

This is Jeannie.

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (21:33)

Um, I like the driver's ed analogy that you talked about a minute ago, because that is the way that we look at this, this workbook. Now that said, those of you that have had new drivers know that your kids are not super excited to start taking driver's education, um, in any way, shape, or form, but they are excited to start driving. And so they know it's a means to an end. And I think, you know, the reason that they know that they have to do it is because they, they have to understand that they're dealing with something that is beyond their skillset and knowledge, um, from the start. So helping them see that this is a similar situation where the smartphone is a great tool, it's something that they should look forward to using to help them in their lives, but needs to come from a place where they have the appropriate training first is really essential.

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (22:33)

So putting in that framework, I think is really helpful to getting the buy-in from the, from your kid. We know that the teens are out there are not gonna be searching for this book on their own. So parents are the ones that are going to be finding it and, um, purchasing it. And so we encourage parents to look through it and get an understanding of it yourself before you hand it over to your, your child, because you wanna make sure that you are up to speed with all of the things that we are talking about in the book itself too. The book itself is, is something that you can literally hand to your child and have them do on their own. But we at Healthy screen habits are one of our core values is that we are working together as a family and as parents with our children to support them and have a, a relationship with them that they know they can come to us whenever they have questions or whenever they've made mistakes, that we are putting our relationship with them first and foremost as they learn these digital habits that we're trying to teach. So I would say that, that those two things are really important, that we, we gain the understanding of what's being taught in the book, and that we are developing and maintaining and nurturing the relationship of, um, conversation and open dialogue, excuse me. And being able to be that primary resource for our child as they are learning to, to navigate their technology.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:55)

Yeah. Yeah. And something I also really appreciate for, with the educator hat on, is the consideration of different learning styles that you put into formatting this book. Could you talk a little bit about the details that are included to make it accessible to all learners?

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (25:25)

Yes. So I felt very strongly that, you know, we talk about the way that, um, big tech is sort of hacked our brains and the way that we learn. Um, they use the bright colors, they use the novelty. Um, I wanted to take that hack back and make sure that the book had the visual appeal that, um, learners need. That that novelty is important because that's what helps retain the information. So we use bright colors and we use bolded information and standout features. We put in some features that would help them spot, um, important key concepts, things that we definitely wanted them to remember and have stand out.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:51)

Can you talk a little bit about the size of font and how, um, maybe people with, some reading challenges such as dyslexia, like I, I found that to be very intentional and insightful. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (27:11)

It was intentional. I have a dyslexic learner who has an amazing brain, and I realized early on that, um, he's not alone in the world, obviously, and in order to capture his attention, it would need to be in a font that was, um, they, there are fonts that are specific to dyslexic brains, and I wanted to make sure that that was included, because again, it's about retaining the information as much as possible and making it easy to read through. The large size of the font is also something that would help process, um, through the words and help with the learning aspect. Um, we decided that we would have questions, um, to make it a workbook style and, but also that it would be something where we had sort of a scaffolding learning approach where we present the concepts and then we, um, bring the information back at the end so that it would be, um, something that they could ponder and, um, work through and think about, um, to scaffold that earlier.

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (28:28)

Learning and understanding all of the terms have been, um, streamlined so that it would be, uh, easy to understand. The age range is from 11 to 15, but we, we broaden that more. We, we say that, um, for that purpose because some of the topics we talk about are, um, you know, something that sometimes parents can be intimidated about, but we make it simple and easy to understand so that the, any child picking it up, learning these things for the first time, um, can understand what is being taught.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:15)

Yeah. And that further underlines the importance of what you said earlier about parents, um, flipping through the workbook and just getting a, a, you know, a baseline understanding of what gets discussed prior to setting, you know, setting their kids loose with it - exactly like any other tool. I mean, it's, it's just like any other tool if I'm, uh, I'm going to use the electric mixer before I am teaching my child how to cook with it, you know? So. Exactly. So, um, what do you hope that kids will ultimately learn from reading and using Healthy Screen Habits Workbook, and then do with their tech? Like what, what do you hope happens after the kids read this book? What's your wish?

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (30:12)

Well, this is Amy, and our vision is that all kids everywhere will be able to use Tech for Good, use it as a tool. We're very tech positive. We're, you know, we, we, it's here to stay and we want it to help them and not hurt them. And so this book, you know, we've mentioned before, this is, this is a positive book. This is not a doom and gloom book of all the terrible things that are out there with tech. This is a, “Hey, these are some of the things that are out there. This, these are some of the great positive things. These are some of the problems that you may encounter. And so if you can learn how to, you know, deal with it and navigate through these things, you can actually use your tech to really do wonderful things in the world.”

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (30:59)

We end the book on a very positive note about sharing goodness. We give several examples of kids who have developed apps or just done things with their tech to really make an influence, um, in the lives of other people. And so that is our greatest hope . It's gonna be sticky and it's gonna be hard, just like learning anything, just like learning to drive a car, there's gonna be mistakes made, there might be a little few minor accidents, and we acknowledge that. We accept that, that that is part of the learning process. We mention that in our book. We talk about mistakes, we talk about what to do when you've made mistakes, and we just wanna normalize that we want kids to feel empowered to use this as a tool. We want them to feel empowered to help other people with techs. We want tech to make the world a better place. And we're, our hope is that by really, you know, learning from this workbook and, and using the concepts that that will happen,

Ad Break: 988- Suicide and Crisis Lifeline

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:27)

My guests today are two of my very favorite people, fellow founding members of Healthy Screen Habits and authors of Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Tweens and Teens, Amy Adams and Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague. As you both know, my favorite part of each episode is where I ask for a healthy screen habit. And as you guys know, this is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. What do you have for us today?

Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed: (36:39)

Well, this is Jeannie again. First off, we think that this habit cannot be reiterated enough. Put your phone to bed, have a bedtime for your phone. And we think that this is so important for so many reasons. Sleep being the number one reason. If you have a bedtime for your phone that's consistent, then you are going to be able to have it not disrupt your sleep that the onset and through the night, because if you have your phone with you, then it's, studies have shown over and over again how disruptive, even having it by your bedside without even picking it up, just hearing a ding or just even having it there can affect your sleep. So we recommend that you have a set bedtime for the phone and that it's docked outside of your bedroom. And for parents, um, we, we suggest that that means that children's phones and other devices are docked either in your primary bathroom or if it's far away from your own bed in your bedroom. That way it prevents teens and tweens from sneaking over to a docking station that might be located in a kitchen where it's not, um, monitored throughout the night.

Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (38:12)

So sleep deprivation, this is Amy. Sleep deprivation is a real thing, and I see it every day. Over the past several years. I've worked with hundreds of kids in schools. And one thing that I've consistently seen over and over is sleep deprivation coming from the fact that they have their phones with them at night in their bedrooms. And what that translates into is many things. Not getting enough sleep affects so many facets of a child's life. And principally what I deal with as a social worker is it, it really does affect your child's mental health. It's really hard to have good mental health when you're not getting adequate sleep. And if I could give every child a gift, it would be to get a good night's rest. It will do wonders for your mental health, just that one habit alone. And so, please, for the sake of so many things, protect your sleep by giving your phone a bedtime.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:18)

Grab your own copy of Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Tweens and Teens. And if you have more than one child, get them each one of their own. This is a reference resource that's designed to grow with them. They're going to be able to keep it, refer to it, make notes in it. It's meant to be written in and loved. And some of the notes are kind of personal. So tweens and teens by nature are not going to want to share copies of this book, understandably. The best news is that the cost of this book is super affordable. You can easily purchase multiple copies.

Go to our website at healthyscreenhabits.org. The purchasing link is right on our homepage. Amy Jeannie, thank you guys so much for being here today, and thank you. Thank you for the time, effort, energy. You poured into distilling the healthiest screen habits for tweens and teens in Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Tweens and Teens.

Jeannie & Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC: (40:41)

Thank you, friend. Thanks, Hillary.

S15 Episode 5: Digital Balance: Overcome Phone Overuse Today // Eli Singer

Wed, 04 Mar 2026 03:28:28 GMT

"…digital balance means something different for everybody."

~ Eli Singer

Eli Singer is the author of Offline.now: A Practical Guide to Healthy Digital Balance and the founder of Offline.now, a global platform and community for digital balance. Offline.now’s mission is to help people build a calmer, more intentional relationship with technology - using practical, compassionate tools and a supportive community so they can use screens purposefully and focus on what matters most.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info: Offline Now

Get Eli's book on Amazon: Offline Now: A Practical Guide to a Healthy Digital Balance

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

My guest today is a long time digital pioneer exploring how technology shapes our lives After building early social media strategies for places like the Museum of Modern Art, Coca-Cola and Ford, he's turned his efforts to building Offline.Now, A global platform and community for digital balance. While coaching and advising leaders, including neurodivergent professionals, he has also authored a book by the same name. Offline. Now welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Eli Singer.

Eli Singer: (01:05)

Thanks so much for having me, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:07)

Mm. Thank you for being here. Eli, you, like I said, have been in this digital space for a really long time. What has changed? Why are you encouraging people to get offline now?

Eli Singer: (01:37)

You know, I think that's a really great question. Maybe it's not so much what's changed, but how we wanna change ourselves. The Internet's always doing it’s internet thing. It's trying to show us cool stuff and give us new ways to connect and, you know, collect some information and make a buck in the way or in the process. And I think people have realized that maybe they're just spending a little too much time connected. And so we're not about, like at offline now. We're not about breaking up with your tech or, you know, forgetting about your tech because we know that's not possible. It's more just about finding digital balance and what digital balance means can be something different for everybody. Depends on your family situation, your job, where you live, how you connect with the people in your lives. And so whatever a healthy digital balance means for you, we wanna help you get there.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:32)

I love it. So, and it, it's funny 'cause you and I have never met, but mm-hmm . Until we started chatting and it, uh, chatting with you now, I can hear your voice in your book now because one of the things that came right out to me while reading your book was this method that is sort of this compassionate approach. And you talk about remembering that needing a digital reset doesn't mean that you're failing at life. Right. It means you're human. Right. So, I I just have to know, are you this kind with yourself?

Eli Singer: (03:13)

I try to be, I try to be, but I, you know, as a startup founder, I'm always pushing myself further. Um, and, you know, focused on self-improvement. My wife's a therapist. Both of us prior to these new careers were in communications, my children excellent verbal skills. There's a lot of talk and going on in this house. There's a lot of emotional discussion, but I am, I'm really thrilled to hear that you locked in on that tone. And that was, there was so much time spent on crafting the right tone of voice for this book because it was important to meet people where they're at. Mm. So many people that wanna change their relationships with their tech have tried before. You know, they've tried rules and, and, uh, timers and lockouts. And every time you have to unlock that or increase the timer or you fail one of your rules, there's just a little bit more of a sense of guilt and shame. And I can't do this. Or anytime you read in a newspaper, if you're like, if your kid uses Instagram for more than two hours a day, they're gonna turn into mush. So, you know, you just feel terrible. So let's just stop that. Let's just meet people where they're at and build their confidence and just help them achieve the goals that they want to achieve. 'cause they can do it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:35)

Do you have any tips for, um, like parents opening this conversation to kids with this same level of compassion I like the framework of keeping, keeping the emphasis on, um, you know, tech as a tool and something that's here to help, but I think it quickly overrides us. So how can parents sort of open this? It's

Eli Singer: (05:06)

Really hard as a parent for a lot of reasons. I mean, I know in my house there was a time where we were the police officers, which, which can harm the relationship a lot. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Because it becomes more about policing than, you know, parenting. Um, also you have, if you wanna improve your relationship with technology, you have to have a desire to do that. And I think for a lot of people, adults, people in their mid twenties, after they leave university starting out in their careers, they have a sense of that change that they want to make in their lives. Younger children don't. Right. The tools are like addictive. They're fun to be on. It's where their friends are who doesn't wanna watch cartoons all day or play games all day. So if without that motivation, it's a challenge. But I'm gonna bring it back to the parent side of things, that the number one thing you can do as a parent is have good modeling. Hmm. And so this is not about blaming parents, but before one sets expectations around their, how their kids are gonna behave with technology. The parent should be doing their best to set the example because the kids are watching them all the time. Yeah. It's pretty hard to tell your kid, like, stop using your phone, let's hang out. When, when they're looking to hang out with you and you're just sticking on your phone. Yeah. Doom scrolling or working, I mean, it's, you know, what have you. Right. So that's the starting place. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:43)

Yeah. And I think in, in, uh, modeling that, like you said, I think it's also important to, um, kind of almost subtitle what you're doing on your phone mm-hmm . With your, you know, when, when you do have to pull it out, just saying, I'm so sorry. I've got, you know, I'm sorry for this interruption. I have to do X, Y, Z. And that way it, it, it puts it in a different frame. It doesn't look like, oh, all she wants to do is scroll on Instagram or all she wants to, you know? Yep. Just keep with with friends.

Eli Singer: (07:19)

And I look to your, like you, the five things that you have on your website. Right. So like, if you're a parent, maybe you should have a bedtime for your phone. Maybe you should be, you know, like you just said, have the purpose while you're on your device. Maybe you shouldn't have your phone in your bedroom. Maybe you should put your phone on silent when you're sitting down for meals or like having family hangout time or, or at other cousin's houses like that. So, you know, living these. And, and this also prevents you from being caught in a double standard with like a really smart teen who's gonna be like, why are you making me do this when you're down doing it? How come I have to keep my phone outta my bedroom and you got it in your bedroom? Like, these are battlegrounds.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:59)

Right. Right. Very true. And so I think for parents to start, thank you for referencing the five healthy screen habits. You got it by the way, , I'm on it. That I, I will, will also refer people to your place where I think is a really good place to start with a self-inventory. And it's gonna be a little bit tricky in an auditory format, but that I I believe in you, Eli, I know you can do this . Okay. Can you explain the offline now matrix in a way that kind of translates. Sorry.

Eli Singer: (08:37)

We wanted to create the most simple way that a person could like, figure out where they are on their personal phone habit journey. And the insight was, when it comes to behavior change, you have to start in the right place. Because if you don't start in the right place, the likelihood that you're gonna fail is high. Mm-hmm . For example, like, you wanna go to the gym, but you haven't been going, or you haven't ever gone before. Going every day for four hours and lifting as much as you can for a week is not sustainable. You'll probably hurt yourself. You'll, you'll, you might never want to go back after that. Right. And so what we wanted to do is figure out a way to get people to identify where they are in their journey so that they could find their starting place. So we, there are four types ready, overwhelmed, unconcerned, and stuck.

Eli Singer: (09:34)

And the way you find out is we ask you two questions. And you can do this on the book, and you can do this on our website. You can take the quiz. It's a motivation question, how motivated are you to change your relationship with your phone? Or motivated to go to bed earlier or stop gaming or stop online shopping or checking LinkedIn, fomo, how motivated are you? And then how self-confident are you in your ability to do that? And so it's the, so it's the combination of your scores of motivation and self-confidence that give you your type. Now, the number one type we're seeing 51% of people that come to the site is high motivation and low self-confidence. Oh.

Eli Singer: (10:18)

And that is overwhelmed. 30% of people are high motivation and high self-confidence. They're ready. So if you're overwhelmed, you have low self-confidence, you don't wanna start with something that's really challenging because you probably won't be able to execute on it. You don't have the self-belief. You wanna start with something that's really easy so that you can build your confidence. Your goal at the beginning is not to, you know, at the end of day four, achieve your dreams, whatever they are, your goal is to, by the end of day four to say, Hey, you know what? Like I can make a change. Like I'm capable. Maybe I'm gonna like start amping it up.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:03)

My background's in education and particularly in, um, motivation, right? Mm-hmm . Like academic intrinsic motivation. Right. And it's a very quick step from overwhelm to apathy.

Eli Singer: (11:23)

Mm-hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:23)

Right? That's right. Where it's just, it's this very quick step. And it's, it's challenging when you're trying to learn something because you, you want to learn, want to learn struggle, want to learn. But then at that point, when you hit that point of overwhelm, then it just becomes apathy. Yeah. And so I can see,

Eli Singer: (11:44)

Which is the stuck quadrant, right? Right. Which is the bottom, which is it's low motivation, low self-confidence. I've tried so many times, I haven't been able to do anything. I'll never be able to do anything. What's the point of trying? So when you're in the, when you're the stuck type, the goal is to both grow motivation and grow self-confidence. And so the book also talks about tactics for that. So on the motivation side, you might be thinking, when was, when was a time that I wasn't so used on my phone and what did that feel like? And do I want to get back there? Or what was something I really enjoyed doing that I don't do anymore? But I'd love to get back to that. Maybe playing guitar or drawing or doing stuff with friends. It could be what is something I'd really love to start doing. Maybe that's an aspirational goal. I can start turning that into motivation. And then you start building your self-confidence very slowly through like little tiny things. Right. Like, you know, I'll keep, I'll keep, uh, the drawing pens and, and coloring book, you know, that I, 'cause I want to be an illustrator by, uh, by the couch. And I'll just, I'll just turn off my phone for one minute and do a doodle and then pick my phone back up.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:56)

Right. Very. And

Eli Singer: (12:57)

Say, I'll do it again. Maybe after a week I'm actually up to five minutes and I'm enjoying it. And it's more fun than being on the phone. So it's, it's, and you can go from stuck to ready. Right. It's not linear uhhuh, you can be like, I was stuck. But then I just, wow. I started drawing again and it's amazing. Like, I believe I can do this and you're off like a rocket.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:20)

Great. We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Eli a little bit more about how to use that Offline.Now matrix to achieve some more of those self desired results.

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I'm speaking with Eli Singer, the creator of Offline Now a global community for healthier screen use. Now their websit e offline.now hosts a directory of experts, a chatbot coach, and a growing library of evidence-backed resources. So let's talk next about tracking usage. Mm-hmm . It's that whole, you can't manage what you don't measure thing. And what are some tried and true techniques to decode where we are spending our time that you recommend people can try to find?

Eli Singer: (16:45)

This is so interesting. I wasn't expecting that question. You know, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about measurement and tracking, being honest with you. Mm-hmm . Um, not that I disagree with what you just said, just there are a lot of tools and apps out there for it. Um, I find that the measurement piece leads you down the path of rules. Mm-hmm . I've used my phone for this many minutes and I gotta reduce it to that many minutes. And what I don't like about that or, or what, what, where I take a different point of view on that is that, um, once there's a rule, if you, if you break it, then you kind of feel a lot of shame and guilt mm-hmm . Um, or like, I, you know, like I just didn't make it. Um, so I think more about personal goals mm-hmm .

Eli Singer: (17:36)

And so the way we look at it is this. So like I said, people take their surveys online and we know which quadrant and we know time of day and day of week. We have lots of interesting data. So what we're seeing is Sunday is the highest ready day. People feel most ready during the week, five to 8:00 PM and a little bit in the morning at around around 11:00 AM in terms of overwhelmed, people feel most overwhelmed in the afternoons during the week, late in the evening, and then all day Friday. So for me, it kind of sets up windows, right? So if you're planning, so you sit down yourself, your partner, your family on Sunday and say, Hey, what are the experiments we wanna run this week? Mm-hmm . Right? And let's pick the times of day that are gonna make the most sense for when we're gonna be kind of working with our strengths.

Eli Singer: (18:32)

Right? You don't wanna set yourself a goal of something that's a challenge in the afternoon, if that's when you're always feeling most overwhelmed mm-hmm . Perhaps try in the morning or after dinner, but before bed when you're feeling really strong, uh, and, you know, pick some sort of an intervention that you think you can learn from. And if you're successful at it, great. And if you're not, why weren't you? And how might you adjust things next time? So I kind of like, you know, we kind of work within this framework of different times of day. If you're ready, if you're, if you're more advanced and you're in the ready type, then we might say, what are things that you're doing already? Why don't you push those 10 or 20%, right? Mm-hmm . And maybe push them into different times of day. That might be a little more of a challenge to see if you can like boost confidence there. Um, but we'll tell people like, give yourself Friday off if like, you're having challenges, you know, you've tried these experiments during the week, make Friday, like, uh, permission to like be overwhelmed Uhhuh. And, uh, Saturday's a recovery day and Sunday you plan for the next week.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:47)

It's a much more fluid and gentle approach and it, it resonates with me for sure. I think, you know, within different personality types, you're, some people do very well with structure and hard edges and For sure. Yeah. But I, I can tell you, this resonates deeply with me. Like, you know, and, and, and just acknowledging that every day is not the same also.

Eli Singer: (20:17)

Yeah. And, and I believe there's multiple paths, I mean, we're a parent. We talked about, it's all parents. Like, I remember there were so many, like, there's so many different pieces of advice about how you put your kid to sleep. You gotta pet them, you gotta leave the room, you gotta let them cry. But, you know, not every style works with every parent. You can't listen to my kid cry. Right. You, you gotta find the one that works for you. Right. So this is just, this is just another of the many books and approaches out there.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:44)

You had a term in your book that was new to me, and I'm always, that's always kind of fun to play with language.

Eli Singer: (21:03)

I hope I remember this now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:05)

Oh, okay. I can remind you if you don't.

Eli Singer: (21:08)

That's what the edit's

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:09)

For. It's, uh, right, right. It's, um, app overlaps, and you say, be careful of app overlaps. And to me it translated to like what also is referred to as dual screening.

Eli Singer: (21:25)

Yeah. I mean, this is when you're, you're, you're dual screening. You go from one app to another, you're multitasking, you know, you go in to do one thing, and then you end up in three or four other apps. You're doing many things all at the same time. You know, you leak across them all. I experience that pretty heavily in my own life. I love music. I have ADHD music turns my brain on, gets me going. And I like to listen to music like first 20, 30 minutes of the morning before I do anything just to get my day started. Right. But when my music comes from an app that's on my phone, the, the likelihood that I'm gonna check an email is high. So I bought a dedicated music player, a really good one, connected to great headphones so I can come down in the morning and boot something up that has everything I like to listen to on it. And I don't have to go anywhere near my phone until I'm ready.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:29)

I think that just speaks to the intentionality that you're trying to approach this life with digital devices and enjoying what they have to offer, but not allowing them to override your decision making.

Eli Singer: (22:46)

Yeah. And find out what works for you in your own life. Like, there's, there's so much out there, right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:54)

You know, I think the challenge comes in making those changes sustainable, right? Yeah.

Eli Singer: (23:59)

Yeah. This is, this is where the other part of offline now really kicks in.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:05)

Okay.

Eli Singer: (24:06)

The, the matrix is really good at bringing in everyday people that, you know, wanna figure out where they're at and start their journey. But I think it's, it's, it's, in some ways it's just not fair it to expect people to do this on their own. People have such intimate relationships with their devices. Mm-hmm . They're sleeping with them, they're using them on the toilet, they're like using them in the commute for hours a day for years and years and years and years. And then all of a sudden like, don't worry, we're gonna make like smart choices and all of a sudden we're gonna change all of our behaviors. Like good luck. Um, and then it's very specific into people's lives. Mm-hmm . Right? Like parents, teens, kids, different ages, different life stages. It could be about work, it could be about body image issues. It could be about gaming, it could be about online pornography or dating under LinkedIn, what have you.

Eli Singer: (24:55)

So the website, what we're looking to do is build the largest directory of coaches, therapists, social workers. We've got dieticians, kinesiologists, people are joining the site, they're choosing from over a hundred different areas of expertise. Very niche, very specific. So someone can come to the site and say like, I'd like to talk to somebody about relationship stress, parenting about, you know, online body image. And, you know, it could be a clinical conversation around depression, anxiety, OCD and screens, what have you. It could be a more coaching oriented conversation around executive function and routines and ADHD. Um, but you can find somebody that is really skilled mm-hmm . And qualified and certified, and you can reach out and book a meeting with that person.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:48)

Yeah. Yeah. Great. It's a one-stop shop.

Eli Singer: (25:51)

Yeah. Well it's kind of like, you know, it's one of these things where it's like really simple at the beginning, but then it becomes incredibly complex. Sure. And to think that any book or any one individual could help every person. No, like people wanna find really personal custom help that they can identify with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:11)

Right, right. And it is, yeah. I mean, every family is different. Every person is different with their needs. And yeah. I think having that individualized approach is, is key. So again, we have to take a short break, but we come back. I'm going to ask Eli Singer for his healthy screen habit.

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I'm speaking with Eli Singer, and as you know, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Before you share yours, I do want to reference in the back of your book on page 61, there are 100 ideas to try mm-hmm . Instead of scrolling. And the first one, I, I love it because there, there, I feel like, like any single one of these could be your healthy screen habit. I mean, as it's come as simple as sit by a window and do nothing for five minutes or prep a meal from scratch with no devices nearby, that would be very difficult for me. I listen to comedy every night when I cook.

Eli S inger: (28:19)

Well, I'll, I'll take you up on that , because number two is my favorite on the whole list. And that can be my healthy screen habit, which is like, hum. Or sing through your favorite album from memory Start to finish. Oh. And the track's gotta be in order. So give that a go. I

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:34)

Is there any other healthy lifestyle, screen, habit, et cetera, right, that you'd like to add?

Eli Singer: (28:51)

I, you know, like we were saying earlier, I just have fun with your phone. Like you're using it, you're on it for a reason, have fun with it. And when you realize you're not, for whatever reason, just think for a second. Like, Hey, just notice that. Like, huh, this isn't feeling so great right now. I'm not gonna stop because I'm like in a loop right now. But just remember that, think about why. And maybe next time you'll like, maybe not pick up the phone when that happens as much and you'll feel good about doing something different.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:22)

Excellent. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to the offline Do Now website. And a link for how to purchase the book

Offline.Now, you do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Eli, thank you so much for your time. This is just a delightful conversation. It's

Eli Singer: (29:50)

A real pleasure. Thank you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:51)

Thank you. I feel like it applies to all levels of life, not just parents to children or anything else. It's all of us who are living in this digital age. Mm-hmm

Eli Singer: (30:01)

Yeah. Well, I, uh, look forward to continuing the conversation and, uh, thanks for the time.

S15 Episode 4: How to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World // Frank Possemato

Wed, 25 Feb 2026 08:00:03 GMT

"More is less."

~Frank Possemato

In 2020, during the COVID shutdown, Frank Possemato found himself to be a new dad and an online professor. He had time to reflect on the life he wanted for his daughter, as well as take note of the changing world while it moved increasingly online. Inspired by life as he knew it before the digital revolution, he purchased a notebook (with actual coins) and started writing about the importance of offline life. He wanted to remember to be present, to connect with friends and family, and to be tolerant of different versions of shared memories. In this episode, we talk more about life offline and how to appreciate analog moments. Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Frank's 2025 Tedx Talk

Frank's Book: How to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World: A Workbook for Living Soulfully in an Age of Overload

Show Transcript

Hillar y Wilkinson: (00:02)

As a writer and teacher at Cosumne River College and Boston University, my guest today is the first generation of his family to attend college. He writes poetry, fiction, and a new workbook titled, How to Live An Analog Life in a Digital World, A Workbook for Living Soulfully in An Age of Overload. This is something that I find increasingly to be both difficult yet so satisfying, and I have also found myself drawn towards those who seem to have figured it out. So I'm hoping he has, and that's why I invited him to come and chat with me today. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Frank Possemato!

Frank Possemato: (01:21)

Hi, Hillary. Thanks for having me on here. I'm, I'm really glad to be here. I wanna say right at the beginning, I haven't figured it all out, but I'm figuring it out, which is what we're doing, right? So I'll share with you what I know and it's adapting. It's like a practice. It's something that I'm working on day to day.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:37)

You're very humble having read your book, I, I feel like you're further down the path than, than at least I am . So Frank, what, at what point did you decide you kind of wanted off the, uh, the digital hamster wheel, if you will, and lead a more analog life?

Frank Possemato: (01:58)

Well, I think it's something I latently wanted for a long time, but the, the moment where I really realized it, and this is not gonna be surprising to a lot of your listeners, it was during the pandemic, but it was very early in it. My daughter was born March 20th, 2020. That is the week that COVID lockdown started in California. Right? So a week before life was still relatively normal, and then everything was closing up. All these changes were happening. I was, my wife and I were worried that I'd be able to be in the hospital with her when, when, when my daughter was born, because all these things were happening, right? So just as a lot of people's work is either going away or going remote. So I, I'm a teacher and all of a sudden it was all work from home and I've got my daughter, all of these changes are going on.

Frank Possemato: (02:47)

I'm spending more time probably than ever on the screen. 'cause now, instead of teaching in the live classroom, I'm teaching at home online, in addition to all the other reasons why we use our devices. And I was overwhelmed by historically, I've not really been that good at managing my screen time. I'm one of those people that, that gets addictive or whatever word you want to use, where it's concerned on certain things online. But under those circumstances, I figured I'd do something about it. And, um, I've always liked to write by hand. That's kind of my antidote to the screen time. I, I, I can remember growing up, like my mother would bring home notebooks from work that she got for free. And even if I couldn't afford a new video game or I couldn't afford the musical instrument, I had that notebook and I could make stuff in it and imagine stuff in it, right?

Frank Possemato: (03:35)

So, and so I went back to those roots and I bought a notebook with change, actual physical change. I walked to the supermarket in my neighborhood and I bought a notebook. And I started writing. I started writing down different ideas about the effects that internet life, digital life has on me and things that I can do about it. I worked on this for off and on for about two years, and then it came time to type it all up and put it all together. And I realized I had something, you know, that I could share with people.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:10)

You start off your book, recognizing that tech has given us so many things. You point out, we can contact almost anyone, anywhere on the planet. We have access to more information than libraries can hold, and in some ways it's leveraged certain fields of privilege. Others not so much clearly, but it sure it some in some areas. But the world being both at our fingertips and only 13 inches from our face is not necessarily a good thing. What has tech provided that you're most grateful for?

Frank Possemato: (05:03)

So, in the book I mentioned, I do say something like, um, we can do things on our device that the richest, most powerful people in the world couldn't do not very long ago. So that's, that's true for anyone that has a device. For me specifically, I mean, I met my wife online, although it was through a pen pal website, so that's kind of somewhere in a gray area between analog and digital. But I still, I met my wife online. I wouldn't know her. I wouldn't have my daughter or for the internet resultingly, if we wanna follow that through. I work online mostly. I, I pay a lot of my bills working online. So those are big, huge things that digital life gives me that I'm not ignoring. So the cost is huge too, though, or else I wouldn't be thinking this. Right? So, I mean, obviously in so many ways, has enriched my life, and yet if I'm not careful in the day to day, it'll take away a lot of my volume of life. It'll take away a lot of my joy. It'll take away a lot of my thoughts, a lot of my personality, a lot of my happiness. Those are big things to give up. So, um, you gain so much and you lose so much from it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:08)

When you talk to others about approaching this sort of analog life, what, what's the primary reaction you get?

Frank Possemato: (06:21)

People are really excited about it, and I, and especially young people, right? Mm-hmm . So this, this is the fear that we might have because I know I am aware. So I grew up, I'm of a certain age, so I work online now. I'm reasonably techie because I work online, but I, most of my coming of age, I didn't have the internet, certainly didn't have it at home. And in the earlier years, it essentially didn't exist, right? So I've lived really in both eras. If you took my life right now and split it in half, it was like first half, no internet, second half internet, right? So I really do know what both looks like. And so of course there's a tendency to think if I'm talking about living analog or, you know, being screen-free, people might think that I'm being nostalgic. I want, I'm trying to go back to when I was younger, and who knows, maybe there's an element of that.

Frank Possemato: (07:12)

But when I talk to younger people who grew up only in the digital era, they are actually some of the people that are most enthusiastic about what I'm talking about. And they'll say something like, I, I feel the same way, or I've always thought that, or I, I, you know, I, I I notice how much the device affects me and I wonder what, you know, life would be like if I used it less. So young people are really excited by it. And I, and I, and I mentioned, you know, I i, I try to make that point as clear as possible when I'm talking about living analog, I'm really not talking about being retro or old school or something like that. Um, I'm talking about a way of living that for some people, would be something they've never done.

Frank Possemato: (07:53)

Younger people I think has been the ones I think where, where my talk and my, my book resonates with almost the most, and I really have tried, I don't know if I succeeded, but I have tried to strike a tone that is anything but, oh, kids these days, they just don't have it like we did. Or, you know, they're phone zombies. I am a phone zombie at my age when I'm looking at, at a screen. It's not about criticizing younger people. And I think they recognize that, and I, so I think that that resonates with them.

Frank Possemato: (08:43)

But of course it also resonates with, you know, Gen X people of, you know, who maybe lived in the both eras like I talked about, or maybe people of the older generation than that as well. So it actually a pretty universal subject the struggle between, screen time and the benefits and drawbacks of using your phone is something that virtually everybody in our society dealing with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:17)

Yeah, I agree. And, um, I, uh, you and I haven't shared shared ages, but I, but I gather we're of the same generation . It's okay. There was a point in time where I feel like parents who are of our age zone were, they were really the kind of resting hard in this spot of “nobody's done this before, we're the first, we don't know what we're doing”, you know, all of this. But I kind of like to flip that and point out, yeah, we may be the first generation and millennials may be the first generation to be parenting alongside screens, but also we are the last to remember the before.

Frank Possemato: (10:08)

Right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:09)

That's right. And, and that's what your book speaks to is the before and the power in really diving into sensory living or just truly, you know, contemplative space.

Frank Possemato: (10:27)

That, that's totally true, Hillary. And of course, one day there'll, there'll be nobody that remembers the before, and so we kinda have to create a new before. How are people who have only lived in the digital era going to have a sense of self and sense of surroundings and sense of connection that doesn't involve screens? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying that our before is a dwindling resource, right? Eventually there's gonna be nobody around that remembers the before. So we've gotta create some kind of new version of what screen-free life looks like.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:04)

Yeah. And I, and I recognize that it more and more it seems as though, uh, pockets of screen-free living is viewed as luxury. So I think whenever there's an element of luxury attached to it, it becomes kind of, uh, romanticized . So,

Frank Possemato: (11:29)

Uh, that, that's such a good point that you're saying earlier. And I, I really think about this a lot. So when you mentioned something like luxury, I tried to keep all of the activities in my book, things that were free or cheap. There's one that involves,

Frank Possemato: (11:41)

There's one that involves buying a disposable camera. And I felt bad 'cause that's what, 20 bucks or whatever. So I didn't want people to spend money at all with these activities. With that being said, you know, one of the things I talked, one of the challenges I have in there is, you know, challenging a person to have a two or three-hour face-to-face conversation with another person where you agree that it's gonna be face-to-face. You get your phones turned off except for an emergency, otherwise you're not gonna use it. And I'm really torn because that costs absolutely nothing. And yet it does seem like it's kind of luxurious, almost kind of decadent. Like, I'm gonna spend two or three hours not doing anything but talking to another person. So it is actually kind of like a luxurious thing, but it's also a free thing, right? Other than time, which is the most valuable thing we have, and somebody might say, well, I don't have two or three hours to spare, who has two or three hours to spare, and you're not wrong, but when's the last time you spent two or three hours scrolling yesterday? I mean, so we do have, in a way, we do have that time. We just don't think we have that time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:44)

We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're gonna talk more about those analog life choices and applying this whole concept of less is more to our digital life.

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H illary Wilkinson: (13:31)

I'm speaking with Frank Possemato who grew up in Boston. He's taught at some of the nation's most diverse community colleges and enjoys writing poetry and fiction. His latest work, however, is nonfiction, a workbook called How to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World. And we're talking all about it today. So Frank, can you discuss how this concept of less is more applies to analog living?

Frank Possemato: (14:11)

Yeah, so we hear less is more so much, and it doesn't mean it's not true, but we hear it so much, it, it kind of loses some of our meaning. And I actually kind of like to think of it almost reversed. More is less, let's think about that for a minute. So more is less and what does that look like? It's as simple as, have you ever been frozen trying to on a streaming service trying to figure out what to listen to or figure out what to watch, right? So we have all these options, but when those options get into the millions, that's really kind of different than how our, how we experience the world as humans, right? We're, we're experience the world on a scale that's not really like that. So when we have unlimited possibilities, like unlimited things to watch, unlimited things to listen to, potentially unlimited jobs to apply for, potentially something more interesting, always going on in your device than what's in front of you, potentially unlimited romantic partners that might have something that yours doesn't.

Frank Possemato: (15:06)

When we have all these possibilities that, you know, that the digital world opens up to us, that's where it gets into kind of more is less. Because first of all, all those choices are, immobilizing second of all, all those choices can make us really ungrateful for what we do have, right? And also sometimes they can, I think, pull us out of what's closer to us. So I, I mean, I, like I said, I work online, so I'm not saying that that, you know, of course it's, it's possible to pursue dreams and, and, and make a living through the help of technology, certainly. But sometimes when you do what, when you, whatever it is that you're pursuing, you can get so lost in the digital world that you don't realize that there might be resources of people that you know in real life or things that are closer to you that maybe are more tangible that you could use to start whatever it is that you're trying to do. So the idea is less is more. Coming back to this, um, there's a quote that I mentioned in, in, in the book from Lautsu where he says “those with, um, those with less become content, those with more become confused.”

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:25)

That is me in every grocery store, which is why I go to like, I shop Farmer's Market or Trader Joe's because like, I don't, I don't need 15 brands of say peanut butter. I like, I need oh, crunchy, salty, or like, okay, that's it . So I, yeah, that infinite choice kind of leads to decision paralysis.

Frank Possemato: (16:49)

Yeah. So when we think about analog, right, it's a straight line. That's the present, that's today, right? But digital is movable, right? You can move things around all over the place, but you can't really move, oh

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:52)

My gosh, I'm having like a moment.

Frank Possemato: (17:55)

Can't really move next week into today, right? So we live kind of more analog than that. And that digital way of doing stuff and planning and thinking in eventually I think, you know, cause a lot, a lot of unhappiness. And I think it comes down to again, that more is less type of idea, right? Instead of the left is more what's the left right now what we have in front of us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:22)

Yeah. Yeah. No, when you describe time that way, I've never applied it to digital life, but you're absolutely right.At least in the western world, we view time as a, as a linear construct. But you're right, we add in this digital component and it becomes multidimensional and yeah. Wow. Frank, you're blowing my mind here. This whole thing of infinite options has become a huge issue, I think in the land of, I mean fortunately, you were able to connect with your wife online, and you say like, it was a kind of a hybridization of online offline connection. But when I speak with friends who have entered the land of online dating, it seems the options there are greater than anything, but the loneliness quotient is soaring.

Frank Possemato: (19:34)

I think that for somebody looking for a partner, looking for whatever, um, the idea that the internet opens up more options is a good thing, right? I mean, if you, if you're going to wherever your bar or church or whatever in your neighborhood and there's nobody there that's a match for you, that's very limiting, right? So this idea that, you know, you can open it up to wider, why can't you fall in love with somebody or whatever, or have a connection with somebody that lives in a place that you don't live or that you've never lived yet. That's a powerful thing. And I, I, I, I think a good thing. Um, but again, it comes with it a lot of challenges. It comes with it that discontent that you might think that the person you're with can be replaced by somebody that has some other quality. 'cause if, if the whole world out there, how do you know you didn't miss your soulmate somewhere else, right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:28)

Oh my gosh. And Hollywood has taken that idea and is currently running with it. Like, there are so many shows that are based upon this whole idea of a platform where you find your soulmate. I mean, it's very like black mirror type stuff where people are, even if they're in a happy relationship, they're, they're almost unable to avoid that temptation of finding someone else.

Frank Possemato: (20:56)

And I talk about that in the book and, and I admit that there's a huge temptation, a huge fear of missing out. And what I, what I say, the antidote to it, if there is one, is basically what you have, what you and your partner have that those other potential ones don't, is your time together. Is the, is the experience that you've had together, think about it like this. Let's take romance out of it. Let's think about it with friendship, right? Theoretically I could find a friend anywhere in the world that has these exact number of matches with me, but I didn't grow up with that friend. I, they didn't go to school with me. I didn't live in the neighborhood with them. We didn't walk down those roads together. So they're not gonna take the place of my childhood friends because we have that, which you can't take away, which you can't replace just by with another person. And so I, I guess I would say that, you know, if you're a year in or five years into your relationship and you're thinking, well, what if there's somebody else? And I can't speak for that person in that relationship, but I will just say, don't underestimate that one year or that five years, those roads you've been down together with that person. 'cause that's something you have that those all those other online options don't have together.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:01)

Yeah. You're, you're preempting my next question that I had lined up, but I just wanna ask it because I, I loved, I really liked the, the whole idea of this where in chapter six you talked about facts and memories and why you should still trust your memory and source kind of shared moments with your friends instead of just googling something or looking it up. And I think that speaks to that investment in personal relationships.

Frank Possemato: (22:34)

Sure, sure. Totally. I basically say that our memories are imperfect, right? If I'm trying to remember when something happened, I could look at my pictures on my phone and find out exactly what, but if I use my own memory, first of all, I'm flexing that muscle in my memory. But second of all, there's just a value to that. There's something to like asking another person versus just going online and letting AI answer it for you or whatever, right? So talking to somebody about that and even your own imperfect memory, there's, there's a value to that. It's not something you want to give away, right? I mean, you and your friend or you and your family member can discuss and debate what something meant or when it happened or whatever, without looking it up. And that's connection. That's time that you had together, right? That that you, you know, if you have a choice between, uh, I can look this up online or I can ask my friend or knows the answer or even text my friend, go with the second one. 'cause it might be a chance to get in touch with somebody or talk to them or whatever.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:39)

Yeah. And I think I, I, I love that like taking these, these kind of micro moments to moments just connect because it also, it does so many things. It reinforces relationship, but it also, um, allows moments where that person feels needed, you know? Yeah. And I think, so

Frank Possemato: (24:03)

Yes,

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:04)

In this time of isolation that we live with, we're all kind of siloed in our own little pods of, you know, I can look up anything, I can do anything. Like we have ultimate independence, but it's not making people happy. And so it, um, there's great value in just that reaching out to connect with someone, even if only for a, a, you know, a hot minute of just like, Hey, what was the name of that restaurant that we went to with so and so that had that amazing bean dip that was right down? And, you know, I mean, yes, you probably could use Google and figure it out, but I, I like that idea of just connecting with people.

Frank Possemato: (24:48)

What if that text you sent to that person is the first time you've talked to 'em in a few weeks or months or whatever, and you know how easy, easy it is to lose contact with people or friends or whatever, with everything that's going on in life. And now you've just opened it back up again. Instead of looking it up online, you, you open the door back up to talk to that person.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:07)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So also you mentioned these activities that you have at the end of each chapter that I really like for people to challenge themselves. And one of the activities is come up with some questions that you couldn't ask Google. So I feel like we, we just came up with some, a variety of those, but for those who might need a, uh, a little primer, , can you give an example of one or two of those types of questions?

Frank Possemato: (25:39)

Sure. Well, let's really think about that. Like what, what is a question that Google couldn't answer or that AI couldn't answer or whatever it is, right? It's probably gonna be either a really personal question. Like, I mean, if I said something like, um, I don't know, what do I feel like eating tomorrow? Right? I mean, I guess your text history could come up with an answer to that, but it can't actually read your mind. So it's probably, probably a, a very personal question like that. Or it might be a very big question, the type of which nobody's ever really answered. Like, um, I don't know, uh, what happens after you die? Or, or you know, um, what, what should I, um, what should I do with my life or whatever, you know, these type of questions are, you know, Google or AI can't really answer those questions for you.

Frank Possemato: (26:26)

So, but it can answer all kinds of other questions. I mean, if the question is, you know, um, what time is this restaurant open till? Or, you know, what, what year did this movie come out? It's, you know, that's, it's gonna be able to answer those for sure, but it's not necessarily gonna be able to answer questions that are either very personal to you and the people that you know, or it's not gonna be able to answer questions that are so big that they aren't answerable, but they're still things that we, you know, that we still think about. You know, I've got a daughter, you know, she's five or six years old, she's five years old, it's gonna be six very soon. And, you know, she's asking and thinking about the big questions for the first time because she's that age, right? And we still think it's not really like at a certain point in life we necessarily answer those questions.

Frank Possemato: (27:05)

We still think about them, right? We still think about, you know, meaning to life or meaning to our own lives or things like that. We, we think about those things throughout life, and I still think that's unanswerable by Google or AI or whatever. You know, they're big questions, they're personal questions, you carry them with you. Um, and so, uh, tho those are, those are the kind of things to think about. Uh, I mean, I go, uh, trying to, I'm trying to go a month without letting AI answer any questions for me. We'll see how it goes, but that's my little personal task. In front of me right now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:38)

Nice. Nice. Yeah. So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Frank Possemato for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wil kinson: (27:58)

I'm speaking with Frank Possemato, who truly believes in the power of an analog life. And I think when I read your book, one of the most powerful paragraphs was the very last one. And I was wondering if you could share that with us.

Frank Possemato: (28:28)

Sure. Here we go. Here's the very last paragraph:

Digital life isn't going away, but analog life survives in your soul if you make room for it. This isn't about the good old days, this isn't about going back in time. This is about giving your life more attention than your device. This is the earliest it will ever be. There is no time better than now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:50)

I love that it's both reflective and a call to action. It's so beautifully put. Thank you for sharing that. So, as you know, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home, hopefully right away. What's yours?

Frank Possemato: (29:15)

So my healthy screen habit I suggest is during empty moments, like those moments when you just check your phone just because you're in line or you're in an elevator or whatever, when those moments when you're not doing anything, especially important but you're just take checking your phone because you have a spare moment. Don't check your phone during those moments. Instead, during those moments, um, take a second to think a positive thought. Take a second to think about somewhere that you like or to remember somebody that was in your life or somebody that's passed away. Take that moment to pray or meditate or reflect. Put yourself in a good place in that spare moment. So instead of, I'm gonna check my device and potentially be disappointed when I don't get the email I was looking for, or the analytic I was looking for when I, when I looked something up, instead of that, in those spare moments, I'm gonna think something happy. I'm gonna think something positive. And it makes a big difference because we ha we have a lot of those little moments throughout the day. And I actually think that those moments are a big part of, uh, where our personality comes from and a big part a a big part of our self-development. And you don't wanna give those away. So instead of having, just checking your phone, 'cause you have nothing else to do, check in with yourself during those moments.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:35)

Yeah, I love that. Sometimes, um, people refer to that type of moment as being mindful, you know, I mean like the mindfulness portion of it, but also I just, I love that idea of it being reflective and kind of leaning into your humanity.

Frank Possemato: (30:57)

Thank you

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:58)

As always.You can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to purchase How to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World, a workbook for Living Soulfully in an Age of Overload. You do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org, click the podcast button and you can scroll to find this episode. Frank, thank you so much for your time today and for just keeping things real.

Frank Possemato: (31:30)

Hillary, thanks so much. I appreciate this conversation. I feel like we still have a lot more to say, but I, everything that we said here, I think, um, re really made an impression on me and, uh, you're doing great work. Thank you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:42)

Thank you.

Season 15 Episode 3: How Families Can Beat the Algorithm: Screen Time Without Blame // Dr. Sajita Seita

Wed, 18 Feb 2026 04:34:08 GMT

"Name it.

Move it.

Time it."

~Dr. Sajita Setia

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://sajitasetia.com

Instagram:

@drsajitasetia

Show Transcript

Show Transcript:

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

My guest today knew all about the ongoing mental health crisis in youth and wanted to find out how to prevent it. Through her research, she was able to find factors that could reduce mental health risk. It turns out the lowest hanging fruit, and the biggest factor was addressing digital wellbeing. But you knew that because you're listening here. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Sajita Setia.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (00:35)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It's a pleasure to be here with you today, uh, on Healthy Screen Habits podcast, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:46)

Same. I'm just gonna mention that Dr. Satia is talking to us from New Zealand today, so that is very exciting. And Sajita, you have clearly made a big splash in the pond of digital wellness. You've presented all over the world and are passionate about helping families and schools raise resilient, balanced young people in a world of constant screens. What led you to this line of focus? How did you get to be this digital wellbeing expert?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (01:23)

Um, so my story is to some extent similar to your story, Hilary. It also began during the pandemic in my own home with my pre-teen, who is currently, who is now 15 years old. Um, it was a challenging time for everybody with virtual learning, and my husband had to be in Singapore at that time, uh, for some clinical programs. So I was all alone with two kids, managing work, family, everything, virtual learning. Uh, my son, who was 11 at that time, uh, he used to play chess a lot. He was never into other video games. And, you know, I felt, okay, chess is good, online chess, uh, and during pandemic it was, of course, online because that's how he was playing with his friends, with bots. And he would spend hours on chess. So I spoke to physicians, teachers, chess coaches, and they're like, it's okay.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (02:18)

It's good for him, it's good for his brain. But I noticed mood changes, behavior changes, which many just attributed to growing up, puberty. And I felt, no, there is a tension between what we call good screen time. It doesn't really matter what they watch because chess is supposed to be good, and what I see in real life, so I made some changes because, you know, they say Mom knows the best. I'm like, no, something is wrong. It's sleep disruption for sure. And I saw big improvements, not just in his mood, but in terms of, you know, conflicts that we would have around screen time relationships. And then I started researching. I got really passionate about it. I started partnering with universities and schools, and I am an implementation science expert. There is a clear link between the mental health crisis that we see and poor screen habits, but it's so under spoken, I think if we can just target that, I'm not saying it's the only reason. There are socioeconomic aspects, there are other aspects, you know, family values, um, the other support that children get.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (04:37)

But if we can get address digital wellbeing, we have conquered, I would say 90% of the battle. It's easy to address. It doesn't cost anything. All it needs is proper education, personalized program at times. But most of the times in most of the families, it can be solved and it would make everybody happy. It will re resolve conflicts. Most of the conflicts as I see around, especially starting with pre-teen years, when children, they want their own independence and they have their own moods. And unfortunately that's the time most of the families would provide a cell phone, a smartphone to children. It's a very tricky situation. You see, they are going through puberty, they are being defensive, and they are given something which they don't know how to handle. I would tell all the parents, listener, listeners out there, don't blame yourself. Please don't blame your kids. Build a system that protects digital wellbeing because it's the deepest act of self-care in today's loud text saturated digital world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:53)

I love that. I love that phrase. Yeah. And I think, um, what you're talking about is very identifiable to anybody who has lived through tech withdrawal or a tech meltdown. They, they've seen it in their own house where the outsized emotional outburst from just withdrawal of tech. And I love how you provide this translational piece between the research to practicum, you know, what people can do. So do you have any top tips in making the biggest difference as far as managing these behaviors?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (06:40)

Absolutely. So, uh, in my workshops that I conduct with children, I teach them through games. Children love games, so I tell them the game rule is: name it, move it, time it. So we are competing with technology, and if we just give up and just do whatever technology is designed to do, we can never win because the apps are designed to make us lose track of time. And this happens with everybody. It happens with me. It happens with you. And imagine children where their brain is not developed as much as ours, and they're still learning a lot of things. Self-esteem, online comparison is so strong, it's hard for them to differentiate what is fake and what is real. Technology is always going to win. So let's frame it as a game and let them know all through this time you have been playing without any game rules.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (07:40)

Mm. And your opponent, which is the technology, has all the cheat codes, knows all the strategies, of course you will lose. So when we phrase it as a game, the biggest shift that happens is we empower them. They stop blaming themselves. So I feel parents, families and kids are in a very tricky situation with guilt and blame, and we have to move away from it. We can never empower anybody by putting the blame and putting them into that guilt trap cycle. So we name it as a game, phrase it as a game. We first empower them, bring them into their self-respect, and it's very important. And now the biggest, the easiest winning trick is when you're competing with an, with an opponent. Imagine taking your opponent's strongest weapon away so you have great chances of winning. Now, technology as it's designed to make us lose track of time, we need to keep it out of sight.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (08:41)

So we need to keep it outside out of sight. When we are doing any focus work, learning a skill, doing homework, family time, and especially when we are sleeping, you know, I mean, it, it doesn't work In most of the cases, even with adults, we say, okay, phone is alarm. I I can put it on flight mode, on silent. It's a temptation. Mm-hmm . We don't let our kids sleep with candies when they're toddlers. We take candies away, we put them away, we give them when it's the time. So visibility drives temptation. Um, so these were the simple rules that I started within my family that changed our dynamics. And even it helped me form better relationships with my partner, with my children. We take out the, the guilt trap, and we prioritize family time. We keep the temptations away. So phone parking, uh, during bedtime, everybody's phone needs to go at a proper parking place.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (09:40)

It's not just kids, it's also adults. So we are role models. So parents, kids would end up modeling our behavior and then we time it. So name it, it's a game. Okay? We are playing against technology. Technology can be a tool, but we should not let it become a trap. We move it, move it out of sight, and then time it. So it's, it's protection. It's not a punishment timing, it, we have to phrase it as a protection. Decide the time before you start, use a timer and you need your parents' sidekick to help. It's one team. It's not our child versus technology. It's, it's the family versus the algorithm, which is so strong. So the family has to be together. So if a child wants to watch, let's say YouTube, we can agree, “okay, you have done your homework, you have done, you know, you have spent your time.”

Dr. Sajita Setia: (10:35)

We are not saying no technology is bad, you can't do, because then all the other kids are doing, and our kids, we would end up spoiling our relationship because we would come there as a dictator, which we definitely are not. It's just the connection and communication has to be really, uh, done in a proper manner. And we can agree, let's say 30 minutes timer on, but the device stays in a shared place, like in a living room, not in the bedroom. Because we need to be careful what the, we are watching what is being fed. Um, to some extent we can control, but the easiest way is to put it somewhere in the living room. And then again, at dinner, at bedtime, we have our devices parked at one place.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (11:22)

I think we also have to take away the word addicted. You know, our child is not addicted, and then the child stays with that label throughout the life. It jeopardizes self-esteem. You are not addicted. Technology is strong. But yes, we are learning strategies to win and we will win because we are one team and we will win.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:46)

Well, that speaks to your, um, kind of your emphasis on empowerment is, you know, putting, putting the child in the driver's seat, so, or the family, putting the family in the driver's seat. So I love it. Name it, move it time it, and for any family who is looking for a stepping stone to start those conversations, I highly recommend you check out our family tech plan, which is a free downloadable tool. Tool on our website. So when we have to, uh, we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Satia more about practical tools for helping kids handle social rules around social media and how that social media ban in Australia is going.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (14:07)

I'm speaking with Dr. Sajita Satia, a physician and published researcher who turns complex research into simple, practical tools for families. So last year, Australia put in place a social media ban for the under-16 crowd. And I am embarrassed to admit I have not followed this as well as I might have. This is where I rely on my, on my guests to keep me informed. But I'm just wondering, I know you're not in Australia, but they're, they're sort of neighbors, . Um, do you have a sense of how this is all going?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (14:52)

Absolutely. And I'm raised, I'm, I'm so glad that you raised this. So, um, we are close neighbors and we are really similar countries, Australia and New Zealand. New Zealand is also now going for Before 16. And let's see what happens. It's a great start, I would say. Uh, but it's reduction. It's not perfection. Definitely good intentions. It's too early to say what would happen. So basically from 10th of December, 2025, all major social media platforms must take reasonable steps to prevent under sixteens from holding accounts. Uh, penalties apply to the companies and not families, which is good. Um, and the government expects that it would affect around 4.7 million under 16 accounts that would be deactivated, removed or restricted. Um, it's a mixed response, I would say, you know, and they would be workarounds like children using VPNs. Alternative apps are coming up. It's a big thriving business for alternative social media, uh, borrowed accounts.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (15:57)

And there's a debate about privacy, age su, you know, displacement in other space spaces. Uh, I am hopeful, but to me it's again, a bandaid. It's, it's very similar to removing school, you know, phones from schools, you know, phone ban in schools. It's, it's, it's a great bandaid and definitely good intentions, but it's treating symptoms and the disease. Kids need education. They need media literacy. They need skills. Uh, they have their own reasons for doing it. Apparently. There are many groups that encourage poor mental health and self-harm behavior. Uh, especially there are big online gangs and they target girls, and it's easy for them to say that, you know, we didn't do anything. We are not to be blamed because the victim is self-harming. And if kids are exposed to a lot of this information online. Plus they are exposed to a lot of other unfiltered content.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (17:08)

They are in danger if they're not educated. And banning social media accounts, at least for my family, if I say it'll give me higher weight to convince my children what happens with social media. Yeah. So I would come, yeah, so it'll gimme weight. So I'm hopeful, but I have heard conflicting reviews and some are not in favor, and I respect everybody's opinion.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:06)

Let's, um, kind of talk a little bit more about that impact of social media, not just on girls, because we have this whole manosphere that happens with our boys. It's a very toxic place for them to be as well. But so, you know, compare and despair is this term given to the sadness or feelings of low self-esteem that happen after scrolling on social media. And anybody who has spent any amount of time on social media, I'm sure, will recognize that feeling. It's almost like a, a slight jealousy. You're comparing your life against somebody's highlight reel. So amongst other things, it leaves kids feeling isolated. It's people feeling isolated despite large numbers of followers or chat groups or whatever. And how do you propose that families can navigate this area once their kids do have social media?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (19:18)

So the strongest pattern in research, uh, screens do affect mood and behavior. And there are many drivers. So we need to focus on the drivers, like why do they affect mood, especially in girls the com online comparison. So the first top driver, which I would list is sleep deprivation. And it's also the easiest to fix. And that's what I noticed with my son. Uh, we are, we are all, we know since our children were little babies and toddlers, why sleep is so important to their mood. So if you can target sleep deprivation, you know, as I said, name it, move it, time it, move it away from your bedroom. So that driver we have sorted. And then you would notice that a lot of shared decision making discussion gets easier if kids are well rested, when they are tired, grumpy.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (20:23)

you should not use that time for any discussion. Let them get dressed, let them get in a better state of mind, and then you discuss. So yes, sleep deprivation. Second is this continuous flow of dopamine, which they get without doing anything. So dopamine is not bad. So dopamine is a motivational hormone, or a chemical which is secreted in the brain, and it is all for good. You know, it, it helps us feel good through motivation. Yes, we have done something. But what social media in this continuous binge watching it does is that it gives this dopamine a feel good, good effort, accomplishment, feeling without doing anything real.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (21:33)

So we have to target dopamine towards the real authentic purpose and motivation. They need motivation, they need goals. So we have to just switch it more for real life, social networking. And, and as you might have seen, Gen Zs and the young generation, they're deteriorating in their social skills. They'll rather avoid a social interaction. So they are just using their phones, okay, I don't wanna talk. There's somebody at home. I don't wanna talk. I just want to be in my room. You know, I can get my own dopamine without doing anything, you know, and I can do. The third, as you pointed out, is the negative comparison, which affects girls way more. So the problem, everybody would debate, you know, some people would say, oh, no, you know, social media is all good. The bands are just brainwashed.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (22:31)

So, so they need to be on social media to face the real life. True. But social media is basically designed for adults, and it's getting stronger, faster day by day with all the AI tools to hook our attention. And they are making money, you know, they run ads. So we lose our time, focus, productivity, and we are a target. So once we educate children, they want to protect themselves. At the end of the day, they are a target. So you have to be mindful of your time because if you lose your time and your mood, you are losing and technology is winning. Um, but the research also points out that all the negative effects for social media, they affect young girls way more than boys. I would agree. It's, it's it's biology. But then also we have to keep in mind, boys are not so generally clingy towards Instagram or social media.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (23:31)

They're more happy with YouTube shorts, online gaming, Roblox, Fortnight. And again, those online gamings are also nowadays powered by AI. So, you know, for the experience, and sometimes they show all the violent content and inappropriate, they're not filtered. And at times, you know, grooming on also happens online. They're also threats. But I don't think they are to the extent that our children lose confidence, self-esteem through binge use, or we, I call it as a doom scrolling. So doom scrolling is basically anything that makes you lose track of time, you lose your confidence, your self-esteem, negative comparison. Uh, and as you said, they end up comparing their real life with somebody's filtered life. So it's not real. Mm-hmm . Um, and, and of course emotional overload also, especially in girls. So we need to target individual factors. And these behaviors are, they vary from family to family.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (24:35)

And some families, I would say even boys are into Instagram. It's, it's less common, but it can be seen in general, I would say boys are into video gaming. They lose track of time. They have, uh, a laptop. I mean, of course they may say, oh, I need it for schoolwork, but they're on Roblox or Fortnite at night, and it's very common. And, and I just go around and talk to kids. Um, and many of them, they confess, yes, you know, I wake up, I, I can't sleep at night. I, I sleep like 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM I'm playing video games. No, my parents don't know. And of course the child is saying, “yes, I went to bed at at 9:00 PM” or whenever we went to bed, and the child is grumpy. And parents are like, “what's happening?” Right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:19)

So when we say, say, yeah, because they just going to bed does not mean going to sleep. . Absolutely. That's why we have to remove technology from the bedrooms.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (25:28)

Absolutely. It's, it's the easiest thing to do. It just needs some convincing. You know, convert doom, scrolling into intentional bloom scrolling. You can also learn a lot online. Mm-hmm . Uh, a lot of learning is happening online. So bloom scrolling, all those accounts that help you grow, grow, educational, motivational, you can subscribe to them. So keep on curating your feed, especially for girls. It's very important.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:44)

I love that. I love that. Turn doom scrolling to bloom scrolling. That's great. Yes. Oh, so this season, our theme is from first screens to crisis moments. And I love your focus on proactive use of resilience skills and digital management. And I think in employing the management component, the goal is not to reach those crisis moments or to help people through the crisis moments. And I know you have some great, emotional intelligence tools that you recommend parents teach. Could you share a few of those?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (27:28)

Yeah, absolutely. So one of them is basically the, the triangle, the bidirectional relationship between thoughts, feelings, and behavior. Often we are not aware of what we are thinking or what brings about change in our thought processes. Uh, it's mindfulness, it's meditation. I'm sure experienced meditators can recognize their negative thinking pattern in seconds or minutes. But for most of us, especially for children, they're never aware what's going on in their head. And oftentimes we see a lot of somatic or the effects on body. So yes, they have upset tummy, uh, they have a lot of physical pain, but they, you can't really trace out what's the cause, it's anxiety. And I would say most of the problems in young people are related to low mood, depression, and anxiety. It just, it doesn't look like that. They're still high functioning. Uh, they are quite competent, but unfortunately, we don't know what's going on in their head.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (28:40)

So teach the triangle to your children. Ask yourself what you are feeling. And after you have sort of determined what you feel, go back and ask yourself, what were you thinking? And then ask yourself, why was I thinking that? If they're spending too much time on social media, it's quite obvious they're being affected, especially if they're posting, you know, how, what's the traction of my photo that I posted? Oh, my friend got these many likes, or this boy commented. So the, these things are really important for a child to know. And again, reinforcing its filtered life and giving them purpose, passion in life basically deviates the online pull that we see. And there are studies to support that. So children who have a higher purpose, related to offline life, of course, they don't get affected by the likes and the comments and the negative comparison they get, they, they are more focused about achieving their goals.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (29:45)

So connect your child with a higher purpose. You know, you are sent to this world to bring about a change and just keep them away from the attraction. You know, that is shown in the fake world. We are not gonna compare a fake world with a real life. And this is basically, as you said, emotional intelligence where we use feelings as a dashboard. So feelings can predict everything. And I would say try not to focus on behavior, because behavior is just an iceberg. What's going on in their head, within their body is really complicated. When they are in a bad mood, that's not a time for a conversation. Let them get good rest and then build a connection. You know, do something together. It could be cooking, involve them in household work, but be there with them. You know, not just delegate. We are together as a team.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (30:39)

Use technology mindfully in the right way, but your life is all about giving the best to yourself and others. And that's how we can protect our kids. Curating is really important to get away from binge scrolling. So clean up what your brain is consuming, unfollow or block or mute the accounts that make you feel not enough. Follow the creators that help you learn, feel calm and build skills. There are also really great teen role models who talk about, um, you know, environment. They talk about really great bringing difference in the world, bridging the rich poor gap, giving to this world so they can also follow those accounts. So unsubscribe from those rabbit holes channels, which are just meant to make you feel that you're not good enough. Compare you know, the body image, and subscribe to the ones that help you teach, grow, and inspire.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:00)

Lovely. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Satia for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (32:25)

I'm speaking with Dr. Sajita Satia, all the way from New Zealand. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (32:49)

I'm glad you raised it. And I would say one tip which can change your family dynamics for good is focusing on your child's sleep. It's the biggest asset to their productivity and happy mood for them to thrive in life. Focus on their sleep. When they can think calmly, think in the right direction, they will be ready to make decisions with you. Get involved in family shared decision making about phone parking, being vigilant on social media, using AI mindfully, being ready to learn from you. And, and understand that not to believe anything that they see online, first of all. So protect their sleep. They would be ready, they would absorb all the nuggets like a sponge if their mind and brain has rested well. Um, and simplest way to protect sleep is devices out of the bedroom for everybody, not just children. Also parents, go and Spend $10 to buy an alarm clock. Your phone doesn't need to be your alarm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:05)

I could not agree more. It's one of our top five healthy screen habits. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to more info about Dr. Satia's work. So you do this by going to healthy screen habits.org, click the podcast button and find this episode. Sajita, thank you very much for your time today and for everything you do to help to create this balanced world for all of our kids.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (34:43)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It was such a pleasure, and I, I'm really proud of all the gre at work you are doing, which is much needed. And I wish you all the best. And to all the listeners out there, you are wonderful pa parents in a very loud digital world, and you're very loving, and your child will thrive in life with the digital wellbeing. So keep going. Thank you.

S15 Episode 2: Beyond Screens: Healing Teens Through Connection // Kellyn Smythe

Wed, 11 Feb 2026 08:00:00 GMT

"After a few weeks,(of no technology) we see a huge restoration in terms of their sleep. Creativity goes through the roof…..(ultimately there is a)...sense of feeling more and more connected."

~Kellyn Smythe

Kellyn Smythe is an expert at helping youth transition from living on devices to connecting with the physical world. Since 2014, he has worked at Pacific Quest, a fully licensed and accredited residential mental healthcare establishment on the island of Hawaii. In this episode we talk about layers of mental health care and what to expect with a digital detox.

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkin son: ( 00:40 )

By now, we are all aware of the adolescent social media addiction crisis We hear week after week about how this unprecedented uninformed experiment we're partaking in is rewiring brains causing serious mental health issues and negatively impacting sleep. At the end of last year, Australia took the bold step in banning social media for kids until age 16. But what comes next when the likes and the shares are set aside and social media withdrawal sets in? What do we do? And this is where my guest today comes in. He is an expert at helping youth transition from living on devices to connecting with the physical world. Since 2014, he has worked at Pacific Quest, a fully licensed and accredited residential mental healthcare establishment on the island of Hawaii. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Kellen Smythe!

Kellyn Smythe : ( 01:47 )

Aloha, Hillary. Nice to meet you,

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 01:50 )

Kellyn, for most of us, we hear Hawaii and we picture vacation , right? Yeah. But Pacific Quest is a residential treatment center. And can you just give us a, we're not gonna spend our whole time on this, but can you explain what Pacific Quest is and what you guys do?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 02:09 )

Yeah. So Pacific Quest is a residential treatment program, um, and in the, the constellation of resources that are out there for youth as well as adults, um, there's a few different levels of care that might be helpful to understand. So the, the very first, and something that I think is a little bit newer in the landscape of mental health resources, uh, is what we call mentoring or coaching. Um, these are generally in the community. They're getting kids out and engaged in activities, and those can be really powerful because they're, they're very much active. Uh, they're, they're not therapeutic. Thing to be mindful about in that space is just that there's not really a licensing process. There's not a lot of oversight in that world. So just be really thoughtful. Um, when it comes to mentoring or coaching resources, the next layer is what we're probably all familiar with when it comes to, uh, therapy, if you will.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 02:57 )

Um, and that's outpatient therapy or psychiatry. Uh, that's where you go meet with your provider. Um, increasingly these days, those tend to be virtual connections. Uh, as providers realize it's much more cost efficient to not have an office 'cause they don't need one. Um, but those are the, those are the resources where you go in, you meet once a week, you have sort of a longstanding relationship with those folks that might last years. Um, and that can be a really great resource for folks as well. The next layer. So that's, that's where most people I think are familiar with. The next layer beyond our kind of outpatient resources is what we would call IOP or intensive outpatient resource. Um, those tend to be kind of short term, six to eight weeks, uh, and usually about three hours a day. So usually after school for kids, they go, they do group individual work can be really valuable.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 03:42 )

Um, there's another layer up, which is what's called a PHP or partial hospitalization. And that is just more hours. So it's like IOP plus. So usually, uh, six hours a day. And, uh, and that is also about six to eight weeks. Um, another kind of more intensive resource. All of these are community-based. So you live at home, you come home, you have dinner at home, all of those things. And for, again, for many, many families, engaging those kind of resources really help shift things in a positive direction. If it's not, then that next layer of care is where we come in, in our space. It's at a residential treatment experience. Um, but typically it's referred to as a RTC, and that typically lands between 30 and 90 days. Uh, for us it's very consistently closer to 90 days. We're a little longer term, uh, residential treatment experience.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 04:35 )

And there you'd be living with, that's the residential part of it. You're living with, uh, the program. They're caring for you 24/7 providing food, housing, and hopefully some really immersive experiences. Beyond that is the, the sort of acute care setting. And that's where someone's in the throes of a, a significant mental health crisis. They're in a hospital. Um, and that's an acute care. Those are very short term, usually just a few days. They're not really providing treatment. They're providing safety mm-hmm . Um, so at Pacific Quest, we fall into that residential treatment space. Um, and our big thing here is really focusing on the idea that no one's ever been talked out of a mental health crisis. Uh, I've never, uh, I've never met a kid that I could trick out of their depression or anxiety. Mm-hmm . Um, therapy really just provides this opportunity to reflect on and learn about the experiences of our life and emotions and relationships.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 05:31 )

But it's not by nature therapeutic. And the same can be said about psychiatric medications. While medications can be an important part, and they are for a lot of our, our clients, uh, a part of their mental health treatment process, there's not a pill for autism or adoption or trauma. Um, and so what we've discovered, and I think it's it's fairly intuitive, is that only experiences, specifically experiences in relationship are what really unwind these negative patterns. And so if, if, if we were to ask you or any other parent out there, if we reflect on a moment in our lives that we feel proud of or that really kind of changed things in a meaningful way for us, it's never this one time on Zoom therapy , right? It's always these kind of big moments where we are connected with a partner or with a loved one, or with nature.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 06:22 )

Often they're in nature. Um, I mean, for me it's, you know, the birth of my kids. It's when I was a kid. And, you know, traveling in the Himalayas, it's, you know, a first kiss with a romantic partner. It's, you know, those moments that are sort of unscripted and you know, you're connected to something else. And so at Pacific Quest, we really try to leverage that by utilizing therapies, all kinds of different, uh, integrative, uh, interventions, medication management, nutrition, um, but really focusing on this idea that we can be in nature and experience those transformative moments.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 06:54 )

Thank you so much for giving us that whole strata of breakdown of the different levels. Cause I think, you know, depending on what crisis you're dealing with, I mean, I think it's helpful to hear all of the, the different layers. So thank you. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. I like, can we touch just a minute on, um, some of the experiences that you guys offer? I mean, being in Hawaii, you certainly have a specific, you know, pocket of the world in which to Yeah. In which to foster. Some of these cool things are. What are some of your favorites?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 07:31 )

Yeah, for sure. So our, our program is based on the water. Actually, we're right on the ocean on the Hilo side of the big island. Um, which means that, you know, they've got this five acres of garden space on the ocean. We go paddle boarding, swimming, snorkeling, and kayaking. It's whale season, uh, in Hawaii right now, which means there's baby whales jumping out in front of the, the campus. There's a mild infestation of sea turtles, which is pretty fun. And again, you know, for us it's this great thing where our kids, again, get all the, they get all the therapeutic interventions you expect the group therapy and family therapy and all of those components, but they're doing it while they're on a paddle board or on a double hulled canoe, or sitting on a beach, or if we're lucky, the, the volcano's really active. Um, and they're, you know, they can be out at night watching these 2000 foot fountains of lava shoot out while they're with a peer. And it can be really transformative.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 08:21 )

It sounds like it. What type of role do you see technology playing and a reason why some of the residents that are coming to Pacific Quest need to come for a stay?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 08:33 )

You know, I thought about this a little bit, and certainly over the years we've seen a handful of cases where technology is that it's that genesis of the distress. Like it's the thing that started all of it, you know, that can be online bullying, that can be, um, being a victim of a, a, a digital crime. Those kinds of things do come up. It's, it's pretty rare though. Being a teenager is sort of like, it's like a little dumpster fire. Like it's always a mess , right? For all of us. And what technology tends to do, social media specifically, is it's sort of an accelerant. It's like gasoline. And so what we see is that technology has this capacity to exacerbate the existing patterns, which can be really positive, right? For, so for many of us where, you know, we're on a, a sports team or we're, you know, part of a community and we're organizing something, it's this great vehicle to make those connections even deeper, right? Mm-hmm . But for a lot of our youth, maybe who are neurodiverse or maybe they have had some important developmental experiences that been missed, and I, I'd just like to stress this part. That's pretty much every kid right now because we had COVID and mm-hmm . That's two and a half years of social emotional development that just got deleted. Or maybe they've had some ACEs in their early childhood, right? Those kids are just at a higher risk. So

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 09:46 )

Just so in case people don't, don't know the acronym.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 09:50 )

Yeah. So ACE is an adverse childhood event. Uh, and that's, those would be those traumas that can, um, can unfortunately, you know, significantly inform how kids experience, uh, later life. But all that is to say that those, those kind of initial factors can, can lead to this scenario where now technology starts to accelerate that. So we have someone who's maybe just has a low sense of self-worth and self-esteem, or they have a, a loose sense of connection to their family or their peers, and now tech and now social media just sort of accelerates that. Um, that's generally what we see in our, our space.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 10:22 )

Yeah. So I think that, that you, um, kind of pulled out the word connection is very interesting to me because that is my greatest concern going forward with the AI tech that we're seeing. The AI technology is, um, you know, it's kind of hijacking a lot of connections. So we've seen some of it with social media. I think it's well known that, you know, it was an attention economy that they were going after. I'm very concerned about the attachment economy. When you are at Pacific Quest, do you allow cell phones?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 11:03 )

Oh, goodness. Uh, no. This is probably one of the biggest sticking points, uh, for a lot of the youth who are coming to PQ, is that we don't allow them to have their cell phones. Um, and while we do a movie night, you know, once or twice in a week, that's about the extent of their interface with screens. Um, we really try to take a solid break from technology, and it's sort of obvious, right? We'd wanna do that. Uh, but it's also one of the sticking points, and it's, it's pretty challenging. It is also so incredibly transformative and diagnostic, right? Mm-hmm. You know, we have these youth who come to us, and I wouldn't say they're like in a crisis, but they're definitely stuck. And it's sometimes really tricky to kind of untangle like, what part of this is a learning style, or what part of this is your, you know, your childhood experiences or what part of this is, um, just kind of your own organic, you know, divergence and, and who are, who are you, right?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 11:52 )

And technology just muddles all of that. So if we get it outta the equation, not only do we get just better understanding of what's really going on, but it allows us to just deepen those connections that really matter. And a lot of times it's with their family. So this is the fun part, right? Is we, we take their phone away, which means you can't call mom, you know, whenever you want to, or you can't text your friend whenever you want to. And yet, by the end of, you know, about a 90 day experience, our youth report feeling better connected, better to connected to themselves, to their families, to the world around them. I think one of the essential elements of the program is just getting a break from technology.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 12:30 )

Mm. Are there any kind of like classic tech detox or withdrawal symptoms that you see?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 12:37 )

Oh, yeah. So, I mean, the very first of which is just ridiculous boredom. I mean, it, it, uh, and it, and it makes sense again, right? If you've been spending any significant part of your day being entertained by, uh, a machine that does that process for you, you are just bored. And, and our students definitely are, I would say many of 'em also experience an increase in their anxiety initially. Um, and which is a little paradoxical, right? You know, we, our our kids come to us often because they're experiencing so much anxiety, and then we take their phone away and then their anxiety goes up diagnostically. We see that as that was there to start with. And that technology, that, uh, social media, whatever those devices are, they're, they're really just kind of, um, a short term solution to the longer term pattern. Poor sleep is the next one.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 13:20 )

Most all of our youth are using screens or some kind of tech as they go to bed. It's, it's integrated into their bedrooms. Um, and so initially, I mean, their, their sleep is very disrupted. Um, and then a whole lot of irritability, um, they're pretty grumpy. Yeah. Um, you know, which sort of makes sense. All that is to say that after a few weeks, we see a huge restoration in terms of their sleep. Creativity goes through the roof. We see kids like start picking up musical instruments again, picking up art, picking up writing, uh, poetry, all kinds of things. They make ridiculous, goofy games together, right? It, it just opens the door for them to really tap into that creativity. 'cause boredom is the seed of creativity. Um, and then again, that, that sense of just feeling more and more connected

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 14:08 )

When we come back, I'm gonna ask Kellyn more about the role that tech is playing in connection today.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Kellen Smythe, the admissions director of Pacific Quest, a residential program that helps adolescents and young adults boost their self-esteem, heal traumas, and get to the root of what is holding them back. So, Kellyn, there's a lot, a lot, of talk today about our young men in crisis, and I'm curious, is this something that you see reflected in the residents at Pacific Quest? I mean, do you have stats on, on young men to young women ratios coming to your place?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 15:41 )

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. Yes and no is the, the short answer. Mm-hmm . Uh, the, the, it is abundantly clear. There's, there's so much data that supports this. Our, our, our boys are seriously being impacted by technology and some extremely toxic influences online. Uh, I, I'm raising boys myself, and so I'm especially attuned to this. Um, and I think we just cannot underestimate the importance of addressing that because for better or for worse, how boys respond to that has this outsized impact on society at large. Um, we see that through just so many different vehicles. Boys, however, are sort of conditioned, socially trained to internalize their emotions and externalize their behaviors. Uh, our girls, however, and this is not just during technology or COVID sure, has been a longstanding pattern for us. Our girls are, are sort of taught the opposite, the inverse of that, which is to, to externalize their emotions and internalize their behaviors.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 16:46 )

Now, Pacific Quest tends to focus on, uh, if anything, kind of an absence of behavior. Most of our clients are pretty internalized in their behavior patterns. When there are behaviors, they tend to be limited to the home. Um, and we see kind of this externalizing of emotions. Um, and so for that reason, our scope of care is a bit more aligned with the way that our girls are struggling. We generally are kinda about 50/50 gender split, but if there is a gender split, it tends to be a little heavier on the female side. Uh, and that's just interesting because of the nature of our scope of care. Mm.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 17:20 )

Uh, and that you deal with a lot of social media stuff.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 17:25 )

Lot of social media stuff.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 17:25 )

But if I had to draw a gender line, it'd be, you know, girls are more adversely affected by social media boys. It's video gaming and, you know, everybody gets adversely hit by porn. So

Kellyn Smythe : ( 17:39 )

Yeah, that's the, that's the one we're seeing more and more of is the, uh, explicit content is, and, and the algorithm driven explicit content is very different than how boys used to experience. And, and now, uh, females as well. Um, how they used to experience, uh, pornography. And that is, I think, pretty profoundly influencing their experience of gender identity, sexual identity, um, and just safety in relationships in general. Very few of our clients are actually kind of taking the, their traditional, um, sexual risks and exploration that we would expect in their teen years.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 18:13 )

Yeah, I agree with you. And in fact, many of them aren't dating at all. Many of them are just stepping out.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 18:21 ) Absolutely.

Hillary W ilkinson: ( 18:22 )

Yeah. So in November, you were featured in Parents magazine. Oh, for an article. For an article on screen addiction. You encouraged parents to look out for a few things if they were concerned about screen overuse. Do you have some red flag type things?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 18:42 )

For sure. Yeah. I'm a bit of a biased data source 'cause I'm working with families who are in a tough spot, right? We've got to a place where, um, things aren't really going well. So, you know, for the vast majority of your listeners, it's, it, these aren't probably things that are coming up, but if they are, I'd say these are pretty consistent with the things I get to see. Um, and one of the first ones, it's a, that's a big red flag for me is avoiding in-person experiences, right? So, um, especially as kids kind of develop into their elementary, early teen and late teen years, uh, they should be seeking connected experiences outside the home with lots of different peers and all kinds of stuff. Um, and so if screen increase in screen time is correlated with a decrease in seeking out those kind of in-person experiences, that's a, that's a red flag.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 19:33 )

We want to be thoughtful about that. The next one, and this is sort of often connected to that, I would say, is this need for using screens to regulate our emotions or their emotions. And it can start really early, right? It can be that thing where it's like, well, can't go to the restaurant unless we have the iPad as if we progress. It can get to this place where it's like, well, if I don't have my phone, they're like, I can't go on that adventure. I'm not gonna go on my that adventure 'cause I'm too dysregulated. I just need to be, you know, in my room. So if we start seeing technology being used as a vehicle to regulate, that's another red flag.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 20:07 )

I can't overemphasize that. And where we see it happening is in early childhood development, when it's the quickest way to stop a tantrum. And I just, I encourage people to embrace the tense, be uncomfortable. It's okay, you know? Yeah. Sit, sit with the discomfort of your child and get them through it and just be steady, but don't hand them a device to, to get them to distract out of their emotions.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 20:35 )

You know, I'm a parent as well, I've got two young boys, and they definitely have their moments of absolute dysregulation as do I. And it's so compelling to just be like, here's a screen, just chill out for a second, second. And I think the longer obviously that we lean into that as a resource, the more it becomes their only resource and mm-hmm . Um, and that's the, that's the big concern. I'd say the other, the other things are, um, if we're seeing it, you know, school absence, uh, increases in anxiety, depression, changes in weight, wellbeing, sleep, activity level, um, those are more physiological representations of being overly immersed into technology. Um, and then big, big outbursts around boundaries with screen time. So it's like, “Hey, it's time to turn the TV off” and you get this oversized, you know, uh, response. And then, you know, as we get into those later teen years, it's the avoidance of those typical pro-social milestones. So, you know, getting the driver's license going on a date, I mean, I'm just gonna say it like sneaking outta the house, doing the, the typical little risky things that make you as a parent, like grit your teeth a little bit. Um, those are really, really important from a developmental standpoint. And if we're not seeing that, um, but we're, we're probably missing out on some important developmental experiences.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 21:47 )

Thank you. So you've mentioned that you have boys a couple of times. I'm just wondering if we can take a peek inside the walls of your house. What type of family rules do you guys have around screens?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 21:58 )

We are not a, a screen absent house, so we, we haven't gone fully, you know, off the grid, but we do limit time. So it's, it's about an hour a day is the, the maximum screen time and it's, uh, it's earned. So, um, got some basic chores, you know, it's feeding the dog, putting your backpack away, uh, clean your room, make your bed, do the, the very basics. Um, then give it an hour a day. Um, those are on during the week if, if they've earned those things, it's some kind of educational program, not geo those kinds of things. Um, and then on the weekend they can watch regular cartoons for an hour. The, the big ones that I'd say for us are, there's no personal screens. No one has an iPad, right? Um, there's certainly no screens in the room. And then we are more and more inclined to this idea of let's just get away from anything that's algorithm driven.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 22:47 )

So I want either myself, my wife or my kids to choose this is what we're gonna engage in rather than having a machine decide based on where it thinks my attention should be focused. Um, so we avoid things like YouTube or obviously social media. My boys are a little bit too young to engage in that. I'm also just gonna throw this out there. This is, um, my son's in a, a dual immersion language program here. Um, and what that means is that he gets to go through, um, basically kindergarten all the way into high school with the same cohort of kids. There's all kinds of wonderful benefits of this, but the thing I didn't think of until recently is that all of these kids go together, which means all their parents go together, which means we know all the parents mm-hmm . And we've all already have these conversations around tech use. And so we get to have this kind of community decision where we're sort of normalizing like, yeah, no one's getting a smartphone until you're 16, right? Um, so that's not necessarily an in-home rule, but it's something we're trying to leverage within the community. And we're, you know, sort of fortunate in that we get this nice collection of parents to be able to do that with

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 23:53 )

Building of community that has a shared interest is so critical for your overall success of tech management. I mean, my hat's off to you that you've been able to do it. I

Kellyn Smythe : ( 24:07 )

Would, I would say that's lucky , just given our circumstances.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 24:11 )

Well and intentional, because you, you very definitely sought out that type of educational experience for your boys. It's, you know, there was a lot of plan in that.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 24:21 )

I, I'm gonna give credit to my wife on that one. She's

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 24:24 )

. Yeah, no, I can tell you that the basis of healthy screen habits was, we were that crew that you, that you're talking about, where it was like-minded moms that came together and said, Hey, we are not happy with the way we are seeing screens, you know, kind of take over, infiltrate our family life and let's, let's see what we can all agree upon together. And, you know, at this point, uh, the, the those or those original levels of kids are now in their early twenties and young adults and doing their own thing. But it was, um, it was very well worth the ride .

Kellyn Smythe : ( 25:04 )

Oh, for sure. For sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 25:06 )

When we come back, I'm gonna ask Kelen Smy for his healthy screen habit.

Speaker 3: ( 25:12 )

At what age should I give my child a smartphone? How much screen time should I allow each day? What are the best filters to use on my family's devices? Sound familiar? These questions and more are answered at the Healthy Screen Habits website. We've curated the best articles, books, videos, and many other resources to help you figure out how you want to use technology in your life. Click on the awareness section to learn about the issues and dangerous surrounding screen use. Then click on the tools page to download principles you can use with your family today, including the Healthy Screen Habits Family Technology Plan. Visit our website at www.healthyscreenhabits.org for the resources and tools you need to get started.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 26:01 )

I'm speaking with Kellen Smy, the admissions Director for Pacific Quest, which is a residential treatment center in Hawaii that works to build resilience and equip residents with the real world tools they need to thrive. So Kellen, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Kellyn Smythe : ( 26:30 )

Alright, so, uh, this is when we actually regularly do as much as I am deeply concerned and anxious and, uh, thoughtful about, you know, technology use in our house. We also still use technology, which means we have social media and we do all the things that, you know, uh, many families do. Um, but at the same time, one of the things that's been really helpful for us to just kind of c heck in on this is practicing these kind of two week periods of, uh, social media sobriety. Sometimes it turns into a month, sometimes it turns into a whole summer. We just did a whole summer of it. Um, and it's really, really profound. So, uh, my, my tip or trick or challenge, if you will, would just be, just take a two week break. Um, you can do more, but two weeks I think is the minimum for you to really kind of notice what's different.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 27:17 )

And I, I would say get the whole family involved, right? Everybody takes a quick break, um, and let's see what comes up. Um, let's talk about it. Let's, you know, bring it up, let's explore it. And then when it comes back, if you decide to bring it back, what comes up then what's different? Um, for me, I can say that when you turn it back on, you haven't had it on for let's say, you know, for a summer. Uh, and there's a billion notifications. It's really overwhelming. , it feels like a job. Um, and so I think, you know, each of you guys might have a different experience of what it looks like to, to take a little break from it.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 27:52 )

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Just kinda like prune the flow for a bit, especially with everything going on with all the political stuff and everything of today, I've found that it really affects my mood. So I, oh,

Kellyn Smythe : ( 28:07 )

I hate people a lot less when when I'm not watching 'em online. I like people a lot more when I'm spending time with 'em. . Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 28:15 )

And you're a people guy , so

Kellyn Smythe : ( 28:18 )

I know. Yeah, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 28:20 )

Okay. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to more info about Pacific Quest. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Kellen, thank you so much for being here, for talking a little bit about that, like the whole mental health side of where, you know, different options that people can take when they find themselves needing extra help, as well as what's, what's working for you in your life.

Kellyn Smythe : ( 28:55 )

Of course. Thank you Hilary so much. I really appreciate it.

Hillary Wilkinson: ( 29:00 )

For more information, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Healthy Screen Habits. Make sure to visit our website healthy screen habits.org, where you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. It's free, it's fun, and you get a healthy new screen habit each week. While you're at it, if you found value in this show, we'd appreciate you giving us a quick rating. It really does help other people find us and spread the word of healthy screen habits. Or if you'd simply like to tell a friend, we'd love that too. I so appreciate you spending your time with me this we ek, and I look forward to learning more healthy habits together.

S15 Episode 1: Don’t Make Rules - Make Conversations: Raising Cyber-Smart Kids // Kae David and Chad Rychlewski

Wed, 04 Feb 2026 06:01:31 GMT

“We highly recommend (obtaining) a VPN. It makes sure that unwanted eyes aren’t monitoring your activity or….capturing information.”

~ Kae David

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

Instagram @cybersecurityparents

Cybersecurity Parents' website and blog

NordVPN

Get Kae and Chad's book here !

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:42)

So many times, starting from the very first day, I brought my babies home from the hospital, the thought “I wish I had a handbook” entered my brain!. And the world of technology with kids is no different, which is why I am so excited to talk today to the authors of the handbook that many parents have been hoping for Cybersmart Parenting Protecting Your Child in the Digital Age is a digital safety handbook designed to help parents set controls, use security tools, protect family privacy, identity, and so much more. It's written specifically for busy parents, parents like us. This guide makes complex topics simple and helps parents feel empowered, not overwhelmed. So critical. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Chad Rychlewski and Kae David,

Chad Rychlewski: (01:41)

Thanks for having us. Yay.

Kae David: (01:43)

Thank you so much for having us. We're happy to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:46)

Chad, you have worked in cybersecurity for more than 16 years, and what led you to want to write this handbook now?

Chad Rychlewski: (01:56)

So, I, I work a lot with schools, so the K through 12 systems, higher education, but I, I see what they do at school. I also see what I have to do at home. Based off some of that information with my four and 8-year-old sons. I'm trying to help further educate them. They go out to little league games and other activities. I meet parents and they all have very similar questions. What can I do to protect my kids online? Is really what it comes down to. So we, we looked out in the market and saw that there's a lot of big books that are 500 plus pages and have a lot of really big words. We wanted to simplify it a bit more. Uh, and that's really where my passion for this book came from, is making sure that we had a simple, practical, tactical guide for parents.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:38)

And it is, it's so approachable. It's very real person language for real. Parents on the street, , , and Kae. You've done everything from advising multinational organizations to mentoring parents on digital best practices. In your experience, is there one area or an area that you see as the biggest stumbling block for parents with their, with their digital best practices?

Kae David: (03:07)

To like boil it down to one? I would say that the biggest stumble is actually talking to your kids about online security. Uh, which seems so silly that that's the one. Um, but in our research for the book, we found that on average, um, parents only spend a total of 46 minutes talking to their children about online security through their entire childhood. So from ages zero to 18, 46 minutes total. And yet so many kids have access to so many different devices. So being able to just talk to your kid about their online security and safety, that's the biggest fumble is having those conversations, which a lot of parents don't even know where to start. 'cause it can be overwhelming. So that's why when we were writing our book, we wanted to have at the end of each chapter just different kind of talking points or conversation starters, because it's really hard to be like, so what do you know about a VPN my 8-year-old child? Um, or anything about like, what is your digital footprint? So we have a lot of conversation starters in our book that parents can take so that they talk to their kids about their online security.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:19)

And I, I love how you break it down and have those kind of, um, just little bite sized amounts of conversation because I think it becomes overwhelming as a parent when you're, you're like, oh, I've got this big topic that really needs coverage, so I'm gonna sit down and she said, 46 minutes, we're gonna bust out an hour conversation right now. You know, that's,

Kae David: (04:44)

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:44)

As it turns out, as it turns out, that's not effective, right? No. So yeah, there's a phrase, um, that I know Chris McKenna over at Protect Young Eyes likes to use, and he says, drips not drownings. Right? Like, you, like lots of drips along the way, and I, I liken it to staying hydrated, right? Where it's like, you cannot drink a gallon of water on Sunday and think you're gonna be fine come Wednesday. So it's lots of little conversations all along the way, and I think you that's, it's awesome that you guys break it down so well. You tee tease it apart that way.

Chad Rychlewski: (05:24)

It's different by age group too. If I can add onto that for a second. Um, there's a couple different graphics in the book that walk through what you should talk about for an elementary student, how that evolves into the middle school. And it's very different when they get to high school. So the basics of a password when you're in kindergarten, first grade versus, hey, you're about to apply for a job. Let's talk about your digital presence and what that looks like holistically. Right? So that, and at the end of every chapter, there are four different actions you can take five to 15 minutes, we spell out how long it should take, but it's a checklist that even I'm still working through, right? I have an 8-year-old, I'm not all the way to high school yet, but as I go through the, the rereading, the book that we wrote, I'm checking those things off and making sure that I'm doing the same thing.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:08)

I love it. I love it that, um, you're living it as you're, you kind of have your own your own lab . Yeah. You know, I mean, not to boil it down, that makes it sound very clinical, but, um, I agree with you and I think anyone who, you know, people who are parents at this age, typically, maybe they can remember signing up for, for an email address mm-hmm . And I can remember, I mean, I, this will age me, but I was in grad school by the time we were getting, you know, assigned email addresses. You know, a lot of those email addresses as it turns out, didn't translate so well in the professional world, , you know, you know? No, yeah. It's, yeah. So, I mean, even having, you're, you're talking about passwords with little guys, but I'm thinking Yeah. Online names or, you know, meow, meow isn't, isn't gonna really be your best, best choice.

Kae David: (07:07)

It didn't choice, it didn't go well in corporate. Okay. Alright. I think I need to update my email soon. . Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:15)

Shocking . Yeah. Okay. When we come back, we're gonna talk more about these digital best practices and how every parent can strive to keep them.

HSH Ad: (07:25)

Diving into the world of smartphones can be a wild ride for kids and parents alike. Whether your child is getting their first smartphone or has had one for a while, chances are they're still figuring out the do's and don'ts of using a smartphone wisely. Our book is here to help healthy screen habits for tweens and teens. A training workbook to help you use your phone wisely is the tool your child needs to navigate life in the digital world. From tackling poor phone etiquette to addressing social media anxieties and online safety concerns, we have your child covered, written, especially for adolescents. We've put together all the information, tips, hacks, and rules to ensure that your child's phone is a useful tool that they control not the other way around. We explain the whys behind the rules of phone use. We show your child the possible traps and dangers to watch out for how to prevent them and how to fix them.

HSH Ad: (08:19)

If your child has made a mistake, we give your child the five core healthy screen habits to use daily, protecting them from some of the worst mistakes tweens and teens make while using their phones. This workbook will teach your child how to use their phone as a tool to help them do great things in their one amazing life, and it will make your life so much easier. At the same time, packed with colorful graphics and easy to read content. This resource is a game changer for kids. Don't miss out. Buy your copy of Healthy Screen Habits for tweens and teens on amazon.com. Today

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:58)

I'm speaking with Chad and Kae, the co-authors of Cyber Smart Parenting, protecting Your Children in the Digital Age, and the folks behind cybersecurity parents, LLC, with the mission of empowering families to navigate the digital world safely. These two are experts on online protection, and I would like to know, are there any golden rules that you would like parents to know about for protecting their kids or their families in this digital age that we're all living?

Chad Rychlewski: (09:34)

So we were talking before the break about, um, having a lot of conversations and how we grew up with computers as they evolved. So we were being taught about the internet, we were taking typing classes. I saw the giant floppy shrink down to the tiny floppy shrink over to the CD and so on. So we learned with technology, what parents need to realize today is that the, the, the staff at schools, the teachers, they don't always have the time to teach the basics anymore. They're being given Chromebooks, uh, laptops, tablets in kindergarten, sometimes first grade, and so on, but they don't have the basics. So the conversation piece is super important. Part of the book. We have on page 77, there's a tech contract. So why all this conversation's important, filling out that tech contract. It's not about making rules. So that's our, our golden rule is don't make rules. We don't want to make rules. We want to have a conversation. Explain to your children why they can get their device for so many hours. Right. Why they can only get it in certain times of the day. Why you set passwords, explaining some of the technology behind it, helps them further understand it, then it's not just because I said so. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:44)

Totally. Yeah. I think the, um, the explanation, the, and it's kind of that connect before you correct with mm-hmm . Parenting mm-hmm . I think you get, you get further down the road with it. So I, yeah, I love that we too have a, uh, family tech plan that is different, different than yours, but it's our free downloadable tool that is meant to be in ages and stages, like living, living kind of thing that mm-hmm . Grows with your family. So I think, um, the big thing that I like to remind parents is, you know, there people wanna know like, what's the best one? What's the best family tech planner? What's the best contract? What's the best, you know, and I'm like, that's like me telling you what's the best car, you know, like the best car for you as a mom of four soccer players who, you know, you need to be changing in the back, you know, and everything.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:48)

Maybe a minivan. I, I don't have that need. I, I have at this point a black Labrador who goes with me and, you know, I can drive a much smaller car. So the, it's the important part is to have a plan. That being said, I think having the one stop shop within your book is very critical, so , so I recommend checking out that page 77. So one of the things also that I like about your guys' website for cybersecurity parents, LLC, is that it has access to your blog. And one of the posts I'd like to highlight, uh, was written by you, Kae, it was the five easy Steps to set up Your own VPN. Can we break that down a little bit? First, what is A VPN?

Kae David: (12:39)

So first off, A VPN stands for a virtual private network, and it essentially is a secure tunnel, um, between your device and the internet. So think of it as literally that, uh, a secure private tunnel between your device and the internet. And so it encrypts your data and protects your online activities from potentially unwanted eyes or threat actors. So think of, you know, a lot of times people will go to coffee shops, you know, I love my good coffee. Um, and you'll connect to the, the public wifi, for instance. So your device is being connected to that public wifi, or maybe they even have that nice password, 1, 2, 3 that you have to connect to to get to their wifi. Um, and then you go and check your bank account on their wifi because you know, why not? Um, what happens is, first off, we highly advise not to connect to public wifis, especially ones that have password, 1, 2, 3, um, or the establishment's name in the wifi password. Um, but a virtual private network can help you connect your device so that unwanted eyes can't monitor your traffic or see your IP address. Um, and so we highly recommend a VPN because it just makes sure that unwanted eyes aren't monitoring your activity, or, um, potentially threat actors are capturing information from your device because it is unsecure, um, or insecurely connected to the internet.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:11)

Okay. So, I'm sorry to be so slow on this, but I, um,

Kae David: (14:15)

No, we love it. That's why we're here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:16)

Okay. I was gonna say, I feel like if somebody, uh, you know, if somebody is listening to this, they, they probably are starting at a point, like, I am so , but so when you have a VPN, is it device specific or, so it's device specific, not location.

Kae David: (14:35)

Um, so it can, you can actually connect, uh, multiple devices to a VPN. Um, so it's showing where you're coming from, so to speak. So each, each device almost has their identifier, and it shows also where they're coming from. So think about like your mobile device on your wifi, connecting to the internet, it shows your location. Mm-hmm . It shows that you're connecting from us, for instance. Um, and so A VPN allows that secure tunnel. So you can actually choose, let's say I want it to show that I'm coming from like Mexico, not us. Um, so it has that private tunnel where it doesn't necessarily show your location, and it doesn't show your device specifically as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:22)

We have like layers of protection, right? That we talk about with, um, with when we're, when we're talking to families about protecting your family for in our digital age. And one of the things that we talk about is using is a network router. And so we've recommended that as a tool. Is this, that, that's why I'm, I'm kind of like, is this something, but that's something that is within the house, private VPN something that would be used in conjunction with the router, or is it better, is one better than the other? I,

Kae David: (16:01)

That's a good question. So you should have a secure router. So that's definitely, think of it as like, um, different layers of protection, right? Mm-hmm . So if you have a router that is securely configured, that's awesome, and that's like one layer of protection as well. Um, but you might still be able to pick up that in your router, like that's where the location of the router is, and that's the specific device, so people can still see who you are mm-hmm . And potentially even where you're going from your router. So A VPN allows that private tunnel remember mm-hmm . So for instance, it, it makes it so it's harder to see slash they can't see who you are coming from that router and they can't see where you're going from that router. Um, so that's another layer of protection. So we always call it, uh, defense in multiple layers.

Kae David: (16:53)

So you wanna be able to have a multi-level defense, um, so that you can protect your family, um, to, to simplify it in a certain way. It's almost like if you go to lock your door for your house, that's one layer of protection. Um, but you also might want to, uh, turn your alarm system on as well. So if someone breaks through the door, you still have something that can con, uh, trigger and call the police, for instance. So you don't wanna just rely on locking the door to protect your house. You wanna lock the door, but you also wanna have your alarm system in place. So you wanna have a secure router, but you also wanna have that private network, or the virtual private network as a VPN to make sure that you're securing your devices as well. Does that help explain it? It's that multiple level of production

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:43)

For me. It does, yeah. Okay. And then within the, uh, the blog post, and I'm gonna link all your, um, I'll link your website as well as the connections to your book and everything in the show notes, um, so people can go back and find it. So, and you can find this blog post very easily so you can follow Kay's recipe for VPN success, but

Kae David: (18:06)

Love it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:07)

So , so you, you break it down into five steps. And I have to ask, is it really that easy? Or like, I mean, is it like this that, to use that recipe analogy, you know, many, many is the Instagram recipe that, like they say, it took him like 15 minutes and here I am three and a half hours later going, , you know, my kitchen is covered in whatever. So is it, is it really five steps? ?

Kae David: (18:35)

It's five. I think it's actually a really easy recipe to follow. Um, but there are some substep in one step, and what I'm referring to is really choosing the right VPN solution. Um, and the reason why is similar to earlier you said, look, I I can't tell you what is the best car to buy. Like, there's not just one car that everyone should buy, and that's it. It really depends on your need and what you need it for. Um, whether it's, you know, cross country journeys or if you're just going down the street with your family. It really depends on the specifics of your family and your needs. So step two is choosing the right VPN solution. So that one is the one where you have to decide, was it, what is it that your family needs for the VPN? Um, and I'll give an example using my own experience.

Kae David: (19:23)

Um, I travel a lot, um, and I most recently actually went to China, uh, which is probably, um, one of the biggest places where, you know, there's a thing called known as the Great China firewall, um, where it's really hard to access certain applications when you're in China. So think through, for instance, like WhatsApp. Mm-hmm . Um, you don't really, uh, have WhatsApp in China. You have WeChat, Alipay, other applications. But if I wanted to access WhatsApp so that I could contact my family while traveling there, I would need a VPN. So I actually configured and decided that, uh, VPN that was best for me. And the VPN I used, this is not sponsored again, choose what is best for you. Uh, but I used what's called Nord VPN, which is really popular amongst people who travel a lot. Um, and so it was really easy to configure.

Kae David: (20:19)

They have, like, I, I bought it off of the application store, so you do buy it, um, and then you can configure it and download it onto your mobile device, and then they talk you through how to activate the VPN. And then it was easy peasy lemon squeezy. Once I activated the VPN, I was able to access WhatsApp via my phone and contact my family. So it was really, uh, like five steps for me to follow. Um, the only double click step is choosing the right VPN for your family and what you're trying to use it for.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:52)

Okay. Well, I love your thorough answer. Thank you very much for taking the time to walk me through it, because I always have questions. So, , we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask cybersecurity parents for their healthy screen habit.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:11)

From brand new parents to parents of teens who already have their own smartphones. Healthy Screen Habits presentations can help you navigate parenting in this digital age. We cover topics like creating your own family tech plan with a template that helps you guide your conversations and how to improve our kids' mental health through healthy screen habits. If you have a book club Bunco group, or even a group of neighborhood moms that you'd like to gather together for creating a plan on how your kids are going to play together, grow together, and what apps to look out for, let's have a moms night in person or virtual presentations are available, reach out to us at healthyscreenhabits.org, click the book a speaker button and let's get the fun started.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:08)

The book is Cyber Smart Parenting, Protecting Your Child in The Digital Age, and the authors, Chad Rychlewski and Kae David are here with us today. It was written

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:20)

For parents

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:21)

To educate themselves on cybersecurity best practices for their kids, and how to teach them to be cyber smart and protect themselves. As you know, every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Chad Rychlewski: (22:46)

Love the question. Love how you end the episodes too. So realizing that every home might be, uh, built the same, we'll call it the, the common area rule. Some might have heard it as the first floor rule. Devices don't need to leave those common areas. Devices shouldn't go to the rooms at night. Children don't need to be doom scrolling. Well, we might all doom scroll, let's not let them live through that same mistake, right? So my house, it has the, the whole first floor is just all common area, living room, kitchen, so on. All the bedrooms are upstairs. We'll have a basket on the counter where the devices live before everyone goes upstairs at night. Devices go in the basket and I charge them because everyone needs a full battery. But that seems to help quite a bit. Um, I'd recommend trying it, it, it definitely helps kids get off the devices and gives us some peace of mind when we're sleeping ourselves.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:34)

And I like how having that basket on the counter, it becomes, um, it kind of breaks that habit of continual digital connection in the home. It hearkens to the day of the landline, right? Where we weren't continually connected. So it just allows for more presence. I like that a lot. So as always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode@healthyscreenhabits.org, as well as a link for how to buy the book, cyber Smart Parenting, and a link to cybersecurity parents LLC. Uh, like I said, do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Kae, Chad, thank you so much both for being here and for working to keep families safe and providing such a great resource for families. Thanks

Kae David: (24:31)

For having us. Thank you so much for having us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:37)

For more information, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Healthy Screen Habits. Make sure to visit our website healthy screen habits.org, where you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. It's free, it's fun, and you get a healthy new screen habit each week. While you're at it, if you found value in this show, we'd appreciate you giving us a quick rating. It really does help other people find us and spread the word of healthy screen habits. Or if you'd simply like to tell a friend, we'd love that too. I so appreciate you spending your time with me this week, and I look forward to learning more healthy habits together.

Season 15 Teaser: From First Screens to Crisis Moments

Thu, 29 Jan 2026 06:09:12 GMT

Listen now for a preview of Season 15! Episode 1 drops February 7th, 2026.

Listen now for a preview of Season 15! Episode 1 drops on February 4th.

S14 Episode 15: Man Up: The New Misogyny and the Rise of Violent Extremism // Cynthia Miller-Idriss, PhD

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 02:40:07 GMT

The biggest predictor of support for political violence is sexism.

~Cythia Miller-Idriss, PhD

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss is the author of the stunning new book, “Man Up: The New Misogyny and the Rise of Violent Extremism”. As a professor at American University and director of the University's Polarization and Extremism Research & Innovation Lab (PERIL), she has seen firsthand the real damage done to young men through toxic messaging in our online world.

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.cynthiamillerIdriss.com/books

Parent & Help Guides from PERIL (the Polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab):

https://perilresearch.com/

Developing and Using Critical Comprehension (DUCC) - K-5 digital literacy curriculum

https://www.danieltheducc.org/

Book:

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Up-Misogyny-Violent-Extremism-ebook/dp/B0F2KPB7T9

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

My guest today is an award-winning author and a scholar of extremism and radicalization. She's the founding director of PERIL, the Polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab at American University in Washington, DC, where she is also a professor in the School of Public Affairs. And in the School of Education, she regularly testifies before the US Congress and briefs policy, security, education, and intelligence agencies in the US, UN and other countries on trends in domestic violent extremism. Today, she's sitting down to speak with us about what is happening to our boys. She's got a newly released book titled, Man Up: The New Misogyny and Rise of Violent Extremism. And it covers this in depth. We're gonna talk about that a little bit more. But for now, thank you for being here, and welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (01:08)

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:11)

Let's start with kind of establishing common language, right? So I feel like we hear the word misogyny being used a lot in media and different interviews, but many of us don't actually understand what that is, so

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (01:27)

That's a great question. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:28)

Can you start at the very beginning?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (01:29)

So, yeah, great question because I, I also use the term, there's different terms that circulate about it, and I think in popular usage, it often means hatred of women. That's not how I use it. I use it in this broader, more expansive way, which is the policing of gendered norms and expectations that hold up kind of patriarchal systems. And so that means women can do it as well as men. It means that it, it, it's enacted on our boys as well as our girls. So, you know, girls and women experience the vast majority of misogyny. And when we're talking about misogynistic hate online or what's happening, that's usually, uh, directed at girls and women. But we also see things like “you play like a girl” or, um, you know, homophobic slurs, tossed at boys. Like that kind of gender policing fits within a more expansive definition of misogyny, because it's about the norms and expectations that hold up patriarchy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:28)

Okay. Wow. I knew you were the right person to answer that question,

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (02:32)

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:33)

Okay. So on page 79 of Man Up, (loved and hated reading this.) You introduced the impact that memes and kind of explore the role that humor has had in grooming for misogyny. Can you talk, I I, I just wonder if we can like, explore how, not just the messaging, but the framing of harmful content is like ironic, or it's just a joke, you know? Yeah. How is that weaponizing our youth?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (03:08)

Yeah. So there's so much over the last decade really the introduction of memes, but also a kind of counter-cultural ironic stance in highly online youth communities. And we've been seeing this in online gaming a lot, for example, and in recent political violence, we've seen it with, you know, memes written on bullets, and, you know, all kinds of things that we're actually communicating back to an online audience to make jokes, to make fun of the adults that were reading those memes out at press conferences. Right? I mean, it's a, it's a horrifically desensitized environment to violence and, uh, an environment that makes fun of everything is just for the lols, just for the jokes. And anybody who who, you know, tries to challenge a teen on it, let's say, um, is written off as a kind of triggered snowflake who can't take a joke. You're just the boring mainstream.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (04:03)

So it has really this, this use of satire and humor and irony to, um, position really harmful ideas, including, you know, anti-Semitic ideas, um, all kinds of hateful ideas, misogynistic ones as “just a joke” while saying things like, women shouldn't vote, or, um, you know, uh, we should remove the rights, it's okay to stone women who cheat on you or something. Right. That I just, it was just a joke. Like, I wouldn't really do that, but it kind of desensitizes, um, our boys in particular to some of the ideas that actually can be quite harmful.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:41)

Yeah. And even, um, I think this is a, dated reference, but I think the whole like, okay, boomer, like, reference it kind of like, it goes along those lines of like, if you, if you are somebody who wants to engage with someone who has posted maybe an inflammatory meme of being like, uh, like, you know, the Holocaust, you know, actually it's just kind of a no fly zone, right?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (05:06)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:07)

If that's not, you know, we're not gonna make fun of that. They just being discounted as like, “Okay, boomer”.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (05:13)

Whatever. Yeah, exactly. You're just, you just don't get it, right? Mm-hmm . And, and that stance kind of makes it, it's very hard to argue with that stance, right? Because you can't argue that stance with facts. You have to kind of help kids realize like, it's not funny to make light of the Holocaust. This actually happened. It's not funny. I had a journalist one time stop me in the middle of an interview like this and tell me he had overheard his son, 15-year-old son and a friend in the kitchen putting a frozen pizza in the oven. And I will not repeat what he said, but he made a reference to the Holocaust, um, when he put the frozen pizza in the oven. And when his dad asked him about it, he said, “Oh, Dad, it's a meme, like, lighten up. Everybody says it” right? Like everybody says that when you put a frozen pizza in the oven. And I Googled it, and sure enough, there are a lot of memes comparing the gas chambers to pizza ovens. And so it becomes this, like, he wasn't even realizing he was saying it, or how horrific it is to say that kind of thing. And so that's what the memes and the jokes can do. They can just make it be impossible to even see it anymore. It's so detached.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:20)

Mm. So, because we're healthy screen habits and because we are continually fighting for the rights of those online and those who have been harmed by online harms, I have to ask the big, the big question. Yeah. But do you find social media platforms culpable in supporting this climate of toxicity?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (06:41)

So I personally find that yes, they're culpable, and I also know that they will never have, um, uh, accountability. And I don't believe that they're really gonna have accountability. I'm, I'm a pessimist on that front, which is why I work on the side of trying to equip communities with better tools to be skeptical, to be media literate, um, and to make sure that we have, uh, you know, safety without censorship. Right? I think that that's the goal here, is to prioritize the freedom of expression as much as possible while keeping kids, especially, and families and, and our older adults safe from scammers, from manipulators, from bad actors who are trying to trick them and, uh, content that desensitizes and dehumanizes other people and makes that easier to move toward violent action. So that said, you know, I would really like to see more accountability when there are things like, um, the failure in the algorithm that Meta apologized for from February 26th, they apologized for on February 27th, that flooded a lot of users content feeds with, um, really, really violent content.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (07:51)

And I had kids in a high school first tell me about that. The week after livestream, murders, suicides, animal abuse, child abuse, they couldn't get it off their screens. It just kept coming. And Meta apologized for the error in the algorithm, but that apology was, was all there was. Right. Um, and the media coverage of it was like, CNN's story, I think said “Meta fixes algorithmic error” that led some users fee. Right. Like it. And so I wish there were a world in which when something like that happens, anyone who had to see that content would get some mental health resources would get some help for how to process that. Because we know that kids who accidentally saw beheading videos from ISIS or Jumpers on nine 11 had PTSD symptoms, some of them mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:37)

And, um, before we started recording, you had mentioned some of those resources that PERIL has put together. Can you just mention a few of those? Yes. And for everyone who's listening, I am absolutely going to include all of these in the show notes.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (08:53)

Great. Yes, we have, our first guide was for parents, uh, and caregivers to sort of online radicalization and exposure to harms that led into several other resources often created on request. So we have a resource for faith leaders created after a group of evangelical pastors approached us and asked for help, um, to create, uh, resources for what they were seeing in their churches. We have resources for mental health counselors, for teachers, for educators. Um, we often, we call it caregivers because we think grandparents are really important, uh, set of resources in these and aunts and uncles mm-hmm . Um, and then we also released our first substantive guide because we were so worried, not just about like online worlds in general, we were so worried about, in particular, what kind of content is coming to boys. We produced a guide that came out in December called Not Just a Joke, Understanding and Preventing Gender and Sexuality Based Bigotry, which really looks at some of these issues of what's the so-called “manosphere”, which is a collection of sort of blogs and websites and forums that really promotes, uh, some very violent and horrific content against girls and women, but also scapegoats them for the very real and legitimate problems that boys and men are facing.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (10:06)

Um,

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:08)

Yeah. So when we come back, we're gonna talk more about the manosphere and what is happening in online gaming platforms to groom extremism.

______________________

Ad Break: HSH School Assemblies

______________________

I'm speaking with Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss. So the manosphere, like we were talking about before, break, is defined by Merriam-Webster as a, um, it kind of refers to male-centered websites, internet communities, and other digital media regarding collectively as espousing anti-feminist views, misogyny, and is associated with far right ideologies. So that's Merriam-Webster's version. Increasingly, I would say this term refers more generally to a broader media environment, which criticizes emotional displays in men, particularly, and promotes ultraconservative models of masculinity. So in your book, Man Up, you reference this whole thing of, that I have certainly seen in my own home, um, you call them, uh, gateways and rabbit holes. Yeah. And so how does the online space kind of fall into this? How does gaming, online gaming, fall into this zone of Manosphere rabbit hole?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (11:59)

So the first thing about online gaming, I always try to point out is that, is that something like a, a third of the world's population are gamers. And so it is a very, it can be a very pro-social and affective space and a lot of fun. And there isn't research. And this came up after Columbine, of course, for years, there was concern that gaming itself and violent video games was connected to violence, but it's not. So the research is, is very clear that gaming itself doesn't produce violent outcomes. However, online gaming today has this other set of features that were not there when I was growing up, or when other people in, you know, late millennials and Gen Xers were growing up who are parents today, uh, which are the online features. And so the in-game chats, which are live chats with strangers, for example, um, are really, can be a very dangerous place.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (12:51)

And just imagine you're sending your 10-year-old into like a, a park with who they could talk with any adults who say, you know, just anyone at all. And so there's all kinds of things that happen in those chats, including, um, predators, uh, lurking around and trying to get to know kids, people saying they're not who they are. Um, people trying to recruit kids into extremist groups to get them, and especially recruit into some of these nihilistic, uh, harms that we've been seeing with, with networks of people getting kids to self-harm, for example, on video. Um, there's, you know, 500 law enforcement investigations of those incidents of harm and abusive kids across the country. And they do. Those are the kinds of places, any place you can meet an adult online and gaming is a really, an easy place to do. It can be very harmful. Those communities, the online forms are also rife with a ton of policing of boys, right? “You play like a girl”, like I talked about before, the, the, um, homophobic and, and kind of misogynistic and racist comments that are constant there so much that over half of girls who game, game under a boy's name mm-hmm . So that they don't actually have to, and then, and then don't use the audio feature so that they can just play a game without harassment.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:07)

We talk about the online space as, um, we need people to remember that it's a place, not a space. We often draw this correlation between, you would never take your child, like you said, to the park, or, you know, to the busy and busy city intersection and drop them off on like a Saturday night, you know? Right. But I would like to push back and state that, you know, honestly, they would be safer there than they would actually be in an online space, because there you're gonna have a lady like me driving home from the show that I've seen. Yeah. I'm gonna see an 8-year-old by themself and stop over and go, “Hey, do you need me to call your mom? Are you okay?” Yeah. You know, I mean, it's true mean we're, you're gonna have other people looking out for you. Whereas in that online space you don't, you don't have me in my Subaru, you know?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (15:11)

Exactly. And it's true. I mean, every parent listening to this did the same thing that I did. I'm sure with my kids, which is the first piece of advice we give. If you get lost, look for a mom, right? Yes. Mm-hmm . Um, so you look for a mom, if you're lost, you don't know where you are, you need help. You look for a mom, you find somebody pushing a stroller or have little kids, and you get help from them. And that is what you do when you're surrounded by strangers. And so, you know, our kids in this sense, are surrounded by strangers online, some of whom are not who they say they are. Mm-hmm . Which makes it even harder 'cause they're pretending to be a kid or they're pretending to be someone else. So, you know, those in-game chats are one thing. I think another thing is that, um, there are these communities set up around gaming servers like Discord communities and, uh, Steam and Twitch.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (15:57)

And so you, you see a lot of these communities that emerge, where a lot of bad things have happened, like the planning for the Charlottesville Unite the Right rally, or a lot of other, um, they host a lot of, and they're, they're trying, I mean, I know there are good trust and safety teams there. They're trying to remove content and kick users out. But really it's, it's just like a wild west right now still in terms of the lack of, of effective moderation that is fast enough and effective enough and error free enough to keep kids safe.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:32)

So let's take kind of a step forward. We're gonna use this stepping stone of extremism and move into political violence. Yeah. And you state that there have been several recent studies across a wide range of national contexts that “hostile sexism and misogynistic attitudes emerge as significant, and in some places are the biggest predictors of support for political violence and violent extremism.” I think I lifted those words directly from your book. Yeah. So , so what role would you say the online life plays in what we see to be, I mean, the very real effects of offline violence, like the murder of Minnesota State legislator, Melissa Hortman and her husband, the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Like what, yeah, what do you see? Can you draw the, connect the dots for us?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (17:26)

You can. I mean, there's, there's so many ways to connect the dots. I mean, one of the, the thing that got me sort of, one of the things that got me most interested in the, and writing this book was, was understanding how much we were not paying attention to the connection between misogyny, hostile sexism, and rising mass violence, political violence, mass shooting school shootings, and other forms of violent extremism. It's really almost every case. I had a hard time finding a case where there was no connection back. There are a few cases, but 60% of mass shootings have, uh, the shooters have a history of domestic and intimate partner violence themselves, right? In the Charlottesville case, the Unite the Right rally of those neo-Nazi groups, it was every single one of them, um, had a history of it. And so there are these warning signs, right, that come sometimes years in advance, where if you effectively intervened in these sort of earlier mobilizations of exertions of power, of hatred, of anger, of uncontrollable rage, maybe it would not have escalated.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (18:28)

I was surprised when I first started writing the book, a researcher said to me, I, I was giving a talk at Penn State and had lunch with another scholar, and he said, you know, our new data shows that the biggest predictor of support for political violence is sexism. And I was like, what? I couldn't believe it. I mean, I'm a researcher in the field. I'm a woman. I had not read that. And so I started digging in, and sure enough, every study I found across seven countries, and then I just stopped because I was like, that's enough. I need to work on another part of the book. So it's, it could be more, um, is either hostile sexism or misogyny, depending on how the researchers define the term. But basically, either way, it's a extreme hostility toward women, anti-feminist ideas, belief that, um, that women are devious, are lying, are cons, you know, are conspiring against men. Those kinds of beliefs are the biggest or among the top three predictors of support for political violence. And so, to me, when you see that those exact things are also increasing online, right now, we have so many influencers targeting our boys. The most well-known one is Andrew Tate. But there's thousands of guys like that who really position women as they have to be subservient. It's okay to use violent, it's even preferable to use violence against them that they hit in the whole,

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:42)

Using the whole catchphrase “make me a sandwich”.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (19:46)

Make me a sandwich. Right? So they're subservient, but also like this idea that women hit their, hit the wall, they call it their sexual market value. It's an actual, like term used in these spaces expires like in their mid twenties. I mean, so really trying to promote the idea that you want a woman who's like 18 or 19 because they're more compliant, they're more naive, they're more manipulable, right? In order to have more control as a man, those are actual guidance points given by these influencers to teenage boys as they start to seek relationships. And so when you see those kinds of ideas, and he has like an 18% approval rating among teenage boys in the us, right? Like, this is not fringe. This is, you know, really having an influence. And it's what we hear from parents, from teachers that they all of a sudden don't know what to do with kids in their lives who are saying things that they can't believe.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (20:42)

Like, I don't think women should actually have the right to vote, right? Mm-hmm . Or, um, you know, uh, girls have it easier and women's rights have gone too far. Those are all statements that have increasing approval rates among American boys and not just American boys, British boys, other boys, right? It's, it's, and, and that's because this is the worst part about it. They get this content without looking for it. It comes to them regardless of what they do. Mm-hmm . They don't have to search for it. In fact, they don't search for it at all. Often they search for something that codes them as a teenage boy, like a search for fitness, for how do I get rich? Or how do I get a girlfriend? And then that leads them within four minutes of a new 16-year-old boy's account, they start getting content from the manosphere if they hover over it, even for a couple of seconds, more content comes to them.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (21:36)

If they watch a video all the way through, within a couple hours, two to three hours, they have the majority of their content is like that. So when I talk to, I do a lot of talking to high schools and colleges and young men who are always very grateful for the opportunity to talk about these questions. They tell me things like, a lot of their friends are on testosterone. They just say like, they all take T right? They get steroid advertisements constantly in their feeds. They think they're supposed to have stronger jawlines. They're being sold packages of stale gum kinds of products to create a stronger jawline, or believe they have to have shin lengthening surgery to get taller. I mean, these are, it's a, girls have gotten this kind of content for years, of course, pro anorexia, you know, skinny talk, all this horrible stuff. And now boys are really being coached to be more muscular and, uh, strong as a condition of being a man. Mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:34)

And just to further illustrate how powerful those algorithms are, just in me getting ready to sit and talk to you, my feeds have been, I'm, I'm just gonna use the word toxified by manosphere content. And of course it is a little scintillating. It's a little like, I can't stop watching, right? Oh my gosh, who is this guy? Yeah. You know, and as much as I, I mean, it is a, it, it's one of that, you know, the whole phrase like what enrages engages. Exactly. I am certainly engaged . Yes.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (23:10)

Well, and the algorithms, as you know, the, the way the platforms are designed is to encourage that some of them prioritize as much as five times they prioritize the dislike button over the like button. So if you hit dislike, you're five times more likely to get content like that , right? Because content you dislike keeps you engaged more, right? Oh, so, you know, so that's one of the things I tell kids is don't even hit the dislike button, because you will get more of that content, right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:45)

Well, you just taught me something.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (23:46)

Right? And so it's terrible. But that's, you know, once you understand the entire purpose of these platforms, financial model is to keep you engaged mm-hmm . To keep you scrolling, outrageous salacious content keeps you scrolling, things you dislike keep you engaged, watching the whole thing. Sharing it because you can't believe it with your friends. Can you believe this content? Like you're mad. Now, how bad is that for our mental health too? Yes. That we're spending our time kind of in this really unhappy state watching things that are awful, and it can skew your view of actual goodness in the world, right? Because you're not watching like the good content, you're watching the stuff that makes you mad.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:28)

So we've got algorithms. But also we're entering this brave new world of, uh, AI and virtual reality, which, which is, I mean, just like the ultimate zone of exploitation. Yes. Um, do you have strategies or ideas of like, how do we talk about this with our kids, about these heightened areas of vulnerability? Yeah. Where, as of now, I mean, no protections exist.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (25:01)

Yes. So we do, and in your show notes, hopefully we can put the website, direct website to our kids curriculum, which is Developing and Using Critical Competencies. It's called Ducc. Uh, it's built around an animated character called Daniel the Duck. And it was created first by a group of undergrads who won a national competition in my class with the concept of an animated video to teach kids how to stay safer online from false, you know, false information. And then they came into the lab with the support of a donor, um, who funded them for the year, and they went after a grant with faculty support, and they won $800,000 to develop that. And now it's in, it just got recommended to a thousand New York City schools as part of their cyberbullying week. Um, it's in over a hundred other educators' classrooms around the country.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (25:49)

It's free, it's downloadable, and it has some, it's all animated videos and curriculum for schools. And one of them is about AI. And so we have Daniel explaining kind of what AI is. Is it a real, you know, how do you not anthropomorphize it? Right. Um, make sure that you understand it's not a real person. Um, so, you know, we do a lot of that kind of work with older kids. We, right now, we don't have, uh, a scalable curriculum. We go on request into middle schools and high schools right now. And because there, what you're seeing is, um, needs a really sensitive and in-person discussion. We're having a lot of calls from teachers, teachers about the use of AI-generated nude undressing apps, for example, where the boys have created, in some cases, nude photos of all the girls. In some cases, in some states, that's now criminally prosecutable as distribution of child pornography.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (26:46)

So then you have a 13-year-old boys who are getting arrested on those charges after using an app that showed up in their feed for free. Um, you know, and that they thought was just amusing. Right. And I'm not excusing it because there are real victims to this, of course. But I also don't want a 13-year-old boy going to juvie or having a record or being registered as a sex offender because they were persuaded that this was a cool or funny thing to do. Um, instead of having an advance warning. And in every case where we've been asked to do that, the adults at the school didn't even know that technology existed. And so, you know, that's changing. People are becoming a little more aware of it now that it happened to Taylor Swift, and it's happened to other, um, stars. But, you know, the technology moves so much faster than adults are aware of. And so I think trying to stay equipped with some of those tools and just up to date and listening to podcasts like this is, is a really important thing for anyone working with youth.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:46)

Hmm. So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Miller Idriss for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (28:50)

I'm speaking with Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss, author of the new book, Man Up: The New Misogyny and Rise of Violent Extremism. So we have spent the better part of this half hour talking about all of the scary things. And because we always wanna come from help and hope, let's focus on some tools. All right. Yeah. So what red flags should parents be looking for if they're concerned, particularly about their sons?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (29:22)

Yeah, I think there are a couple important things. One is the same as any other, uh, behavioral change you might see in a kid when they start to isolate themselves from old friends or if they are behaving differently, really having trouble detaching from their phones in a way that might be an addiction to kind of content. Either, you know, sometimes pornography or spending too much time in spaces with bad actors who are really becoming their entire community. Um, that's a warning sign. And parents often recognize that, you know, pretty early on the same way that they know something's wrong when there's, you know, um, abusive substances or, you know, they, they can tell something's wrong. They might not know what it is. So that's the first thing is just pay attention to your kids' behavior and to personality changes or change when they quit a sports team or something like that, just to make sure.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (30:12)

But we also recommend listening, right? And often the carpool is a great place to listen, um, the dinner table just to hear are they, you know, what are they talking about? What's coming out of their mouth? And when they start to say, I, you know, we hear this all the time. I have a friend whose son came home from, uh, from ninth grade from a new high school in the first week, and all of a sudden was like, you know, I actually don't think that women should work. And so like, it was just a new, you know, and, and that's, you know, you can hold whatever opinion you want about working or not working or raising kids, but, but it was such a change. It was a sudden change. And so he had a new peer group, and that peer group was a group of kids who were heavily consuming some of this manosphere content, and he was just listening to it and then started to watch more of it online.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (30:58)

Um, and so I think when your kid exhibits sort of sudden changes like that, or is saying things like, um, feminism is a cancer, or, um, you know, women's rights have gone too far. Those are good examples on the gender side that we hear a lot of because those circulate a lot. Um, and, you know, they, and it's a chance to have those conversations about that boys and men are suffering, there is a loneliness epidemic, there are a lot of problems, but why is it that we see these influencers scapegoating girls and women instead of asking for, say, structural resources around mentoring or job training programs?

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:35)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I, I like that with the, the, um, process of coming from like “connect before you correct.” Kind of. So I think like with any, any form of parenting Yes. You know, coming and coming from a place of curiosity

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (31:51)

Absolutely. Like

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:52)

No shame, no. You

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (31:54)

Know, just like, yeah. That's sort of the Yeah. Riskiest thing you can do, I think is shame, right? Yeah. Asking, we often say, this is why I love grandparents to do this because grandparents put the kids in the position of the expert, right? And so we will say like, Can you tell me what it, how does a meme actually work? How can you change it? Where do you post them? Right? Like, grandparents can say stuff like that. And kids will sometimes have a little more patience than when it's a parent. Uh, or just like, Hey, you know, I'm starting, I really feel like I should be using Instagram more for my professional career and my branding. Can you help me understand how you build an audience? Right? And then you, it opens up conversations with an older teen, um, for example, about how these platforms work, or my office is thinking about starting a TikTok account to reach kids. How would you suggest we do it? And, you know, those kinds of things give you a chance to have these bigger conversations about what content they're seeing too. Um, but they like feeling important. They really do. They want, they want your approval and they wanna be seen as a, as an expert. And so why not give them the chance to do that?

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:57)

For sure. I feel like, um, this is a moot point at this point. Yeah. But on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. I feel like that was a great one. Yeah. But

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (33:09)

That's a great one. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:11)

Do you have any others?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (33:12)

I'll give you one that I just heard from a 20-year-old young man I interviewed because I, I always ask, what, what do they think parents should know that they think parents don't know? And he said something I had not thought about, but which makes perfect sense. Of course. He said, “I think parents should be very cognizant of how much of their kids' feed is made up of content they didn't subscribe to follow.” And, um, and I think that's really important. And then help guide them to the filters you can set up on most of the platforms like the For You space or whatever, so that you're not seeing as much of the promoted and recommended content or the content that your friends are seeing, which shows up in your feed. So sometimes like I will open it up and then I'm like 10 or 12 posts in before I see something from one of my actual friends, right?

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (34:03)

And so, you know, a lot of parents think, oh, let me see who they're following, and then I'll know if they're safe. But actually, if 90% of their content is from people they're not following, then you don't really know what they're seeing. And so really that's a place to think about and help your kids make sure their feeds are filtered depending on how old they are, or helps, you know, or help that they understand a 17, 18-year-old what that content actually might be, not something that's healthy or that draws 'em into like true crime fandom or fake, you know, content that can be really gory and violent and harmful.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:40)

Mm-hmm . As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to get the book we've been talking about, Man Up: the New Misogyny and Rise of Violent Extremism and the link to all of Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss's books, which are fabulous, as well as the PERIL Lab and those resources we talked about by visiting the show notes for this episode. And you do that by going to healthyscreenhabits.org, click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. And I cannot thank you enough for this conversation. Thank you. And the work that you're doing, I mean, as, as a mom and just a general member of society, you're, you're doing the most important thing.

Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss: (35:28)

Thank you. It's very rewarding work. And, uh, we really rely on kids themselves being super open with us to tell us constantly in focus groups and interviews what they think adults should know. And so I'm really grateful to their voices. 'Cause that's how I know what I know.

S14 Episode 14: When Fun Becomes Too Much: Talking About Gaming With Your Child // Jennifer Jiyun Park, PhD

Wed, 03 Dec 2025 08:00:00 GMT

"Both online and offline games can have … gambling-specific addictive features."

~Jennifer Jiyun Park

Problematic gaming gets experienced in many households, but can be SO HARD to find any information about!

Jennifer J. Park, PhD, has been working on gaming disorder since 2018. After realizing that New Zealand had no existing programs to help people specifically with gaming disorder, Jennifer set out to study this growing concern. Therapists and people at that time were accessing pre-existing addiction programs, but had nothing to specifically help with gaming.

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://medicine.yale.edu/profile/jennifer-j-park/

Video gaming addiction: When healthy gaming becomes harmful with Jennifer Jiyun Park

Show Transcript

Hillar y Wilkinson: (00:09)

Today's guest is an expert on a topic that while although it gets experienced in many households, can be really tricky to try and find information about or even find resources for help. I'm talking about video game overuse. So it gets described in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, also known as the DSM-5 TR, as an addiction to gaming is referred to as Internet Gaming Disorder, and as a postdoctoral associate at the Yale School of Medicine, her research on gaming disorder is some of the best. And I'm thrilled. We are gonna take some time and drill down on this specific area of screen use. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Jennifer Park.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (01:09)

Thank you so much, Hillary. I'm so excited to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:12)

Me too. Jennifer, when you sort of, uh, began this deep dive into gaming disorder, like straight out the gate, right? Yes. In your academic career, your research began as an undergrad student.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (01:28)

It did, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:29)

Yeah. Were there any keystone events that led you kind of into this field of study

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (01:35)

Study? Yes. So I actually started my research on gaming disorder in New Zealand, which is where I came from. I moved to the States last year and you know, it's a beautiful country. We have more sheep than people, but a lot of people don't realize that New Zealand as a country, we are pretty advanced when it comes to behavioral addictions research, like gaming disorder, like you talked about before, regarding the DSM-5, things like that. And I was really lucky to join this research community doing research on gaming disorder, specifically when I was 18 years old. So this was back in 2018. I was in my final year of my undergraduate degree. And it was almost exactly one year before the World Health Organization officially accepted gaming disorder as a real mental health diagnosis, which was a really positive step forward. So a keystone event for me was during that year I just happened to take a course in university regarding addiction, and it was taught by Professor Simone Rodda..

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (02:34)

She was my mentor for several years before I came. And she had one single lecture on internet addiction and gaming disorder. And I was immediately hooked because I grew up with two older brothers. And I also was born in South Korea, which has a really long history of gaming culture, but also a longer history than some other countries in dealing with the problem of gaming disorder in adolescence. So one turning point for me when I actually started my research with Simone was I came to the realization there were absolutely no specialized health services available for gaming disorder at all in New Zealand and many other countries back during that time didn't make sense to me. So people were accessing pre-existing mental health services, addiction services that doesn't always have the right tools of treatment to help with gaming specific problems. So a lot of them were being turned away. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to contribute to that change. So I started doing my research on gaming disorder and the field has grown rapidly since 2018. Lots more treatments have been studied, potentially provided in real health systems, but we still have a pretty long way to go, I'd say, as a relatively new disorder.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:47)

How do you define internet gaming disorder? How does it differ from just say, playing a lot of games? Because certainly there are, parents who are thinking, oh my gosh, I think my son has this, you know, but that just may be simply because he, you know, doesn't wanna do the laundry or whatever, . So, so what, how, how do you define it?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (04:21)

That is such a good question and a really important one that I get a lot of the times as well. And it's interesting to see how the classifications change over time. But I'm gonna be taking the classification in the ICD 11 and it's basically a short term for the International Classification of diseases. So basically any type of disease or disorder that you can think of, it's probably in that book Gaming Disorder was only included officially six years ago. So it's very new compared to things like gambling, other alcohol use disorders, things like that. But according to that, which was created by the World Health Organization, the first one is regarding loss of control. So a key symptom of gaming disorder is loss of control, and that should present for around 12 months or over. And a statement that's resonated with younger adolescents that I've talked to regarding gaming disorder is kind of like being swept up by waves.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (05:17)

And imagine that you are going really deep into the ocean and you wanna go back to the shore, but the waves are way too rough, which is the external factors, and then you are also too tired, which are the internal factors. So in the context of gaming disorder, how I've seen people describe it that are younger is there are so many external factors like peer pressure to game, they might have heard of terms like, bro, just one more game before you go to sleep. And that ends up going until 3:00 AM for some people. And there are also internal factors like feelings of stress or wanting to escape that leads to loss of control over gaming. And then there are two additional key characteristics of gaming disorder in the ICD-11. The second one is prioritizing gaming over any other activities, responsibilities, or hobbies in life.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (06:06)

So you talked about laundry, that can be an, uh, kind of routine thing that they stopped doing due to gaming. And if we think about a podium, what used to be number one is things like, you know, socializing with family or friends. It could also be doing well in school, eating well, sleeping well. But then when gaming disorder develops, gaming takes that number one spot, the winning spot in the podium, everything else gets knocked off to second place, third place, or completely off the podium. I would say Sleep concerns is one of the most studied and one of the most problematic harms resulting from gaming disorder in younger adolescents. And then that is kind of a smooth transition into the final key characteristic of gaming disorder, which is the continuation or the escalation of gaming despite negative consequences. So that can manifest in so many different ways. It's not just about sleep problems. It could also be skipping school or not performing well in school, or even dropping out. It could be losing relationships in real life, conflict with parents and even various different types of mental health problems like depression and anxiety. So those other three different characteristics that might determine what gaming disorder is in a younger adolescent. Mm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:26)

I appreciate the breakdown of it being like one, two, and three. And I, yeah, I imagine a lot of people are hitting the repeat button right now. . I love that. . So when we come back, let's talk about that role of outside forces, like, um, like energy drinks and caffeine. Yeah. That can play in gaming disorder as well as different types of treatment options available.

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I'm speaking with Jennifer Park, who along with doing her postdoc associate work at Yale School of Medicine, has also served as a news and science reporter in New Zealand for an adolescent-focused TV show. So, lots of hats on this one. Yes.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (08:59)

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:00)

Jennifer, I firmly believe that one of the keys to your success is your friendliness and your approachability. Thank you so much. I mean, you and I met at this massive, like, international symposium and I just, I was drawn to You're very approachable.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (09:19)

I can say the same. Thank you so much. Yeah, .

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:21)

Thank you. So, um, knowing that, and, and to be honest, like those are not traits that I necessarily equate with researchers. So That is true. Yeah.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (09:34)

There are some snobby ones out there, .

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:37)

So knowing that you sort of have this like a, oh, you're young, so you have like the coolness built in factor, but you also have this like secret sauce of engagement. I, I'm looking, this is maybe perhaps self selfishly, do you have any tips for family members or people who want to begin speaking with others whom they think may be struggling with a gaming disorder, but it's like, how do, how do we just approach this topic without immediately being shut down?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (10:10)

That is a great question, and it's quite a complex question, especially because classifying what healthy gaming is and harmful gaming is, is still debated in the literature as well as media. But I think the best approach in talking with a young adolescent is actually start talking about their reasons for gaming itself, how much time they spend on it, some benefits they see around it, and then slowly transition into what are the negative consequences that you are feeling when you're playing games, or what are the negative consequences of not playing games, like potential withdrawal symptoms of not playing games like irritability, sadness, frustration that can exist too. And when it comes to gaming, it's quite tricky to determine what a problem is. So because it is a relatively new disorder, thinking about a couple years ago, the biggest red flag for determining gaming disorder was the number of hours of gaming or increased gaming hours.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (11:08)

But now that we are seeing that people with gaming disorder and without gaming disorder could play exactly the same amount per week, but one person doesn't have gaming disorder and the other person does. So it's completely contextual. It could depend on things like how much free time they have and how much of that free time they're spending on playing games. It could also be contextual to what other responsibilities they have in their life, like schoolwork, extracurricular activities. So regarding the diagnosis of gaming disorder and talking about gaming disorder itself mm-hmm . Can be a touchy subject for a lot of young people because labeling something that is such a popular hobby brings so many people, happiness as a disorder in that individual can incite some negative emotions too. Mm-hmm . So just thinking back to a study that was recently published by Professor Daniel King, who was my mentor for my PhD, he kind of talked about how it's complex in the sense that an adolescent might be completely immersed and spend a lot of time gaming, and over time they might withdraw from social interactions.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (12:15)

They might fall behind academically. There might be lots of tension at home because of screen time, but the young person might see things completely differently. They'll say, I don't have a disorder. These are all the positive things of how it's changed my life. It gives me a sense of purpose. It sharpens my problem solving skills that can be applied to other aspects of the real world. It can lift my mood. And a lot of you may know that gaming is a very social activity too. So there's a social interaction component to that too. So when faced with these contrasting perspectives between the individual experiencing problems and people like counselors or parents or teachers, it's really important to approach that carefully and really make sure that what you're identifying are gaming specific problems. Sometimes it can be other problems that are playing a part too, like depression that co-occur with gaming disorder. So it's really important to kind of tease apart what the main problems are. So insights from adolescents, parents, teachers, like counselors as well and other professionals, is really important to build a comprehensive picture and reach a shared understanding of whether or not healthy gaming enters the realm of harmful gaming. And then steps can be taken for intervention if the parent or the individual is willing to take that step.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:37)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like, involving the use of outside voices as well. Yes. Because I think it can be quite contentious. It's not unlike talking to an addict of any other variety that's saying, I can quit any time. You know? Yeah. So you don't wanna get into that back and forth push, pull thing. I agree. I like, I like that, that comprehensive approach, kind of talking with community to get those things.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (14:14)

For sure. Yeah. Getting lots of voices. I think it's super important for a behavioral addiction like this. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:19)

For sure. For sure. Do you have any like tipping points or red flag behaviors that, might signify to somebody like, Ooh, I think this is going beyond the realm of just healthy gaming?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (14:40)

Yes. That's a really good point. I would say it would be the continuation or the escalation of gaming, even if they know that they're experiencing negative consequences. Mm. So escalation is a key word there, because it's not just about increasing hours of play, but it's also playing more frequently, playing more intensely and potentially playing more intense types of games. So there's a lot of evidence showing that multiplayer types of games involving role playing, involving avatars, shooting competitive aspects, they tend to be the ones that are highly addictive. So people with gaming disorder are more likely to play those types of games. It's called M- M-O-R-P-G, so massively multiplayer role playing games. So it's definitely important to also try to understand the genre of games that are being played as well. And then see if they're still engaging in games despite having problems in all aspects of life, like social, academic work, and interpersonal.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:41)

Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. Of course. Yeah. So, so now let's talk about something that I know you're kind of passionate about , and that's caffeine. Yes. Caffeine and its roles in gaming. Its role in, uh, gaming disorder. Yeah. What can you tell me about it?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (15:57)

Yeah, so caffeine is the most commonly consumed substance during gaming. So there's evidence showing that around 30 to 80% of young adolescents and adults drink caffeine, particularly energy drinks, while gaming and the caffeine industry and the gaming industry, they kind of have a symbiotic relationship where energy drinks, they will very frequently sponsor huge eSports tournaments, or they will sponsor pro gamers or social media influencers that game online. So during an, an important developmental period for young adolescents when they're growing their identity, and they're also looking to be part of a social group, if they see people that they respect online promoting energy drinks as things like performance enhancing drugs for gaming, which by the way, there's no real evidence regarding that kind of evidence. Um, it can really lead to problematic caffeine consumption behaviors in children and adolescents because it is widely recommended that, especially for energy drinks, it should not be consumed at all for kids under the age of 18.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (17:06)

Mm-hmm . Now, the reason caffeine needs to be targeted in the context of gaming disorder is because there is evidence showing that increased gaming disorder severity is strongly linked to problematic caffeine consumption in adolescence. So you could kind of see it as decreasing one behavior could lead to the reduction in the other behavior, like reducing caffeine consumption might lead to the reduction of gaming disorder severity and vice versa, because it's not always the best approach to directly target gaming disorder if there are other things coming into play. So one of the recent studies that we published here at Yale is we found that caffeine played a pretty small but significant role in the relationship between gaming disorder and sleep problems in US adolescents. So people talk a lot about sleep concerns and disturbances because kids are staying awake to play games. But we are, we basically found that caffeine played a role in mediating that relationship. So it's important to address caffeine 'cause it could lead to increased sleep problems in people with gaming disorder.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:15)

Yeah. So it's kind of like the, the snake biting its own tail there, it just goes around and around. Yes, as soon as you made the connection between eSports and the major energy drinks, I'm, I'm, I'm picturing all the logos. I'm picturing Monster and Red Bull and all of those things, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I, I hear you. Yeah, yeah,

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (18:41)

For sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:42)

So, um, so what type of treatment options are available for people who are going through this and looking to find some help?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (18:54)

Yes. For adolescents and children with gaming disorder or any level of severity of gaming problems, it looks like the most common treatment is psychotherapeutic. So talk therapy, things like cognitive behavioral therapy. So in the literature we did a recent systematic review, which basically is a type of study that aims to capture every single study that has been published on a single topic. Our topic is what studies are out there regarding treatment for gaming disorder in young adolescents and children. And we found 30 different treatments. Most of them were CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, and it was pretty well supported. It was effective in reducing gaming hours, but also reducing gaming disorder severity. So that might be a pretty safe approach to go with. And the good news is gaming disorder is still a relatively new disorder, but looking back at a systematic review of the same topic, published only three years ago, there were less than half of the studies that we discovered this year.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (19:56)

Meaning that there are several new treatments being developed very rapidly as the years go by. And there are several types of novel therapies that are available, too. Lots of online interventions, which really reduces barriers to access for a lot of people. Mm-hmm . And also very novel things like equine assisted therapy for kids who might like horses and nature, but also virtual reality therapy coming out of countries like South Korea and China as a pretty interesting and new way of delivering treatment that might be appropriate for children and adolescents. 'cause talk therapy, it does work, but it might not always be preferential for younger kids.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I, I have an immediate like, ooh, pushback with the, with the VR method that, you know, I just, I, I, I, yeah, I, I hesitate to, uh, replace, in-depth screen potential addiction with a virtual, you know, I, I don't know. That's

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (20:58)

A good point. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's been a lot of talk around that regarding online interventions for these online behavioral addictions because we're, we are replacing screen time with screen time for sure. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:11)

Are there therapists who specialize in this type of disorder specifically? And if so, where would people go to? Like what, what would you look under?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (21:31)

Yes. I believe that there are several these days, especially in Asia and in the US I'm not sure if specific people, but I know it can be quite difficult to find specific therapists that really target gaming disorder. But one approach is, I've seen one to three online interventions where people can sign up from anywhere around the world and they can still have one-to-one contact with a trained specialist. They could be a counselor, a doctor, a nurse who's trained on screening for gaming disorder, but also treating for gaming disorder. And the availability also of group-based meetings and peer support can be really helpful as well, especially for young adolescents. Talking about what they're going through, relating with others is a really important aspect of behavioral change.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:19)

For sure. I think part of the big draw in a lot of, um, these multiplayer games is that element of social connection. Yeah. Like it stands to reason that if you could find another group that are looking to back away from the gaming, but maintain some type of social connection that

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (22:43)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (22:45)

And a lot of people like to keep in touch. And I think that's the beauty of online interventions. It doesn't always have to be an intensive treatment. It can just be social contact. And that helps to people to reduce their gaming time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:57)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Well, we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Jennifer for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (24:13)

I'm speaking with Jennifer Park about IGD or internet gaming disorder. And I think it's interesting, Jennifer, that internet is included in the diagnostic label. Are other games addictive as well? Or is it simply the internet games?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (24:34)

Yeah, so internet gaming disorder, that is a very particular term that aligns with the DSM-5, the American Psychiatric Association. I think we're leaning a bit more towards the gaming disorder criteria by the World Health Organization, which thankfully includes online and offline games. So it kind of captures everything that we can. And while I do think that internet-based games are more addictive, I do think it is also important to address that offline games can also have addictive features as well. So both online and offline games can have not only gaming specific addictive features, but gambling specific addictive features. So across various PC games that can be online, offline, around 80% have some sort of gambling-like mechanism. The most common being loot boxes. Mm. So loot boxes, they appear kind of like a treasure box and kids can play basically games and it'll come up and they can pay with real money or they can pay with in-game currency in order to open the box. What's in the box is completely randomized, meaning that it's a very gambling-like activity. And it's all desirable products, like skins for your avatars to make yourself look cooler, specific weapons so you perform better in games. So it is important to realize that those types of addictive aspects don't just exist in online internet-based games, but also offline games as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:05)

Yeah, yeah. I remember speaking with another guy who had been a developer and he's, he recommended to buy your games. Yes. He said that games that are purchased are developed and written different mm-hmm . Than games that are the quote-unquote free games, you know? Yes. That are just designed to keep you on. So part of exactly. Performing in that attention economy type, you know,

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (26:33)

I totally agree. Those online play player games, they definitely have a time limitless aspect because they can always add new storylines and always add new missions. So those are the most addictive as well, looking at the studies that have been published.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:47)

Mm-hmm . Yeah. So true confession time. What games do you play? ?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (26:54)

Yeah, I do game here and there. I, I would say I game maybe once a week Uhhuh . And that's like the limit that I put on myself that I stick to. But I love playing Star G Valley, which is a very relaxing game, Uhhuh. And it's kinda like you take care of animals, you farm, it's that sort of game. And I also love Balloon Tower Defense, which is basically a tower defense type of game. It's strategic, it doesn't really have a role playing component, but I would say it's a little bit more addictive than Star G Valley, which involves planting and taking care of cows and .

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:27)

I love it. I love it. Uh, I think it's, um, it, it's, it's nice to hear that you have your own relationship with Yes. It, it, it lends to your credibility, you know? Thank you. That you can speak to it. Yeah. So on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, as you know, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (27:58)

So my tip is that when you look at younger individuals with gaming disorder, many of them or all of them will struggle to cut down on their gaming and they'll feel really guilty that they can't do it themselves or even with support. So they might even feel quite discouraged to try again to cut down on gaming. So it's really important to emphasize that this struggle of reducing gaming is not a personal failing at all, because games are really carefully designed to be addictive. So games these days are sophisticated, engaging, and immersive, and it's designed in a way that will facilitate not only longer sessions, but more frequent and intense sessions of play. But also thinking about behavior change, actual behavior change, even if adolescents want to cut back on gaming, can be very, very difficult. And there's actually a scientific term for that called the gap between the intention and the behavior or the intention-behavior gap.

Jennifer J iyun Park: (29:00)

So, I mean, not to get sidetracked too much, but my favorite snack is spicy noodles from Korea called sra. It is not good for me and I told myself I'm not gonna have it this week, but I had it yesterday . So that's my intention and my behavior completely misaligned. And that can be the same story for kids with gaming disorder, where even if they really have the intention to cut down, they just can't do it because behavior change is really difficult for anybody. Mm-hmm . So sharing this perspective first can relieve a lot of unnecessary self blame. And then it can open the door and open their heart to practical steps forward. So it can help to reassure young people that change is possible, but there are some steps that need to be taken. So change is possible, especially when they strengthen motivations by setting a clear goal for themselves.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (29:51)

I'm gonna limit my gaming to this amount of time per day for the next 28 days. And they can also clarify reasons for cutting down that they can kind of look back on and think about. The reason they're trying to cut down the nex is building the skills and the confidence to change. It's important to increase self-efficacy when it comes to changing behaviors. And lastly, creating and following a realistic plan for gaming reduction to stick to is important. There are various different strategies that people can take depending on their needs and their preferences. Some people might go to, you know, do behavioral substitution, which is completely replacing gaming with another activity when they feel cravings. Some people might lean towards kind of changing their environment, so removing computers or access to consoles in specific rooms, or just tracking their gaming to be more aware of how much they're gaming. So it's important to stick to a strategy and a plan and stick to it. So overall, I would say that feeling that change is hard is very normal. Not just for individuals with gaming disorder, but for everybody. But with support the right plan and just persistence change can happen. And my overall philosophy is I don't want to stop people from gaming, but I just wanna make sure that games bring people happiness and not harm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:12)

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode. And you do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Jennifer, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing that is so necessary. Thank you. So, so many people are benefiting from all of it. You, you are definitely changing lives.

Jennifer Jiyun Park: (31:42)

Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I really appreci ate you having me on. Thank you.

S14 Episode 13: Grandma Got Scammed

Wed, 26 Nov 2025 04:06:37 GMT

"Happy Thanksgiving!"

~The HSH Team

Forget grandma….I GOT SCAMMED.

I am so embarrassed - I know better.

I literally teach people how to stay safe online.

Ughhhhh….this week on the podcast learn about the latest scams, how I got taken, and how to protect your own family.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/scams-and-safety/common-frauds-and-scams/elder-fraud

https://pausetake9.org

No transcript available for this episode

S14 Episode 12: How Online Lies Become Offline Harm - And How We Fix It // Imran Ahmed

Wed, 19 Nov 2025 05:46:10 GMT

"7 out of 10 American teens use chatbots….more than half of them use them as a companion."

~Imran Ahmed

Imran Ahmed is the founder and CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate @counterhate, a leading voice in the fight against online hate, disinformation, and manipulation. From viral conspiracy theories to the influence of AI, CCDH has been pushing for accountability from the biggest tech platforms since it began.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://counterhate.com/

Parent Guide:

https://protectingkidsonline.org/

Instagram:

@counterhate

Show Transcript

H illary Wilkinson: (00:02)

Today we're joined by the founder and CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate, a leading voice in the fight against online hate, disinformation, and manipulation from Viral Conspiracy theories to the influence of AI, CCDH has been pushing for accountability from the biggest tech platforms since it began. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Imran Ahmed.

Imran Ahmed: (00:38)

Hi. It's really good to be with you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:41)

Thank you. You founded the Center for Countering Digital Hate in 2018, incidentally that's when we founded Healthy Screen Habits as well. What was your catalyst

Imran Ahmed: (01:02)

It's, I think you, I think you got that from Wikipedia, which kids is just a reminder. Wiki Oh no, is not the source of all truth. So, uh, the reality is CCDH was set up in 2016, and I think by my accent, you can probably tell I'm British, um, certainly by my emotional range, which is limited. Um, , I'm very British. Um, but I was working in the British Parliament in 2015 and 2016, uh, I'd been working there for seven or eight years, and I, I worked for the Labor Party, the, the sort of the, the left of center party, um, as a special advisor to the shadow Foreign Secretary. And, um, three things happened in really quick succession that really shook me. In the winter of 2015, we were making a decision as a British Parliament as to whether or not we should join the United States in taking military action against ISIS, the Islamic State In Syria.

Imran Ahmed: (02:05)

And my boss was arguing in favor and, um, we won the vote, and the next day we received 30,000 antisemitic emails and messages. And it, it kind of struck us, gosh, they're all the same. Uh, and where is this being organized? This looks disciplined and like there's a central messaging hub, and we discovered it, uh, in a series of Facebook groups, which were being used by anti-semites to coordinate activities to harass politicians and force them to change their policies. Um, a few months later, I was transferred to be the most, uh, sort of senior civilian working on the EU referendum campaign. So folks might remember Britain went through Brexit. Um, I was working on the other side of Brexit, so against Brexit in that referendum. We lost. Um, but part of what we discovered during that campaign was that the conspiracy theories that were going online, that we would all laugh about, they were coming up on the doorstep.

Imran Ahmed: (03:08)

People were just reciting them back to us. And it was the first time we realized, “oh, what happens online doesn't stay online, it goes offline real quick.” And keep in mind, this is like the summer of 2016. The world is starting to awake to these issues, but it's not awake yet. And then about a week before the end of the referendum, um, a man who'd listened to too many of these conspiracy theories, um, took a homemade firearm and a hunting knife. And he, uh, murdered my colleague, Jo Cox, who, um, was a 41-year-old mother of two. Um, she was the member of Parliament for Batley and Spen in the northwest of England, which is where I'm from. And, um, that was it. I realized something was changing and I thought I understood what might be happening, because when the man that killed Jo was killing her, Thomas Mayer, he was screaming Britain First, Death to Traitors.

Imran Ahmed: (04:17)

And Britain First was the name of the first political movement in the UK to achieve a million likes on Facebook. It is an unashamedly neo-Nazi group. They are fascists. Um, but they'd worked out how to game the algorithms to give themselves prominence and therefore visibility, amplification engagement and, and, and influence and “death to traitors” was the hashtag that was used for a variant on the great replacement theory, a normally anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that had been adapted to say that the EU was bringing in black people and Muslims into the UK to destroy the white race. And what became clear to me in that moment of grief was that we had missed something in the, in the conventional world, that I operated in, in these big institutions with magnificent 12th century buildings, Parliament, the BBC, the civil service, you know, the media we'd missed that un underneath our feet, a revolution had occurred such that the primary place now where we shared information, where we established our norms of attitude and behavior, where we negotiated our values and where we negotiated the, the information that we decided were facts had shifted to digital spaces.

Imran Ahmed: (05:58)

That those digital spaces work to different rules to the real world where engagement with hate can actually help to nullify it in the real world, in the online world. It amplifies it on engagement based platforms, which algorithmically amplify high engagement content. So the more controversial, the more engagement, the more amplification and thus normalization. Um, and, you know, bad actors had learned to weaponize those and they were re-socializing the offline world at pace. And when I realized that, I realized, well, this is a fundamental shift. Now, a long, long time ago, I was a, a scientist, I was a medic actually. I went to medical school and I used to love going to the Natural History Museum in, um, in London and looking at the, the, the species from thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years ago, and how they were perfectly engineered for their time, for, for the environment they found themselves in.

Imran Ahmed: (07:06)

And what I realized was that new species were emerging that would be able to take advantage of this new world that we were in, new information ecosystem that we're in. And actually the people that had adapted fastest were some very dangerous people. Indeed. So that's why I set up CCDH was to study, to understand these spaces and then to work out. Well, you know, what became very clear to me in, in, I, I spent two years talking to platforms, teaching them what I was finding and hoping they would change. And I realized after two years that they wouldn't. So in 2019, I launched CCDH as a public organization to say, Hey, this is what I'm finding they know and they aren't changing. Let's work out how we, the people, you know, uh, by mobilizing members of the public parents lawmakers the media by educating them how we can actually create change.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:05)

I think that is very profound. The, the lens that you had to coordinate both human evolution as well as the politics to recognize this fundamental shift in our informational ecosystem. And I really appreciate how you just broke down the difference between offline hate versus online hate. Where, um, I don't remember who said it, but it's difficult to hate up close, but in our online world, it's easy, easy. So yeah,

Imran Ahmed: (09:15)

Hate's a fascinating thing. And one of the things you learned by studying hate is that hate actu. It's really, I, I I'm a father. And, um, you know, when your kids are young, you, you look at them and they don't hate anything. Like they love everything. Um, and they, well, they mainly wanna lick everything and put it in their mouth, . I don't, I still don't understand why they do that, but it's very adorable. Um, and, um, I, I always think, what does it take to turn this innocent, perfect thing into something that is slathering with hatred, fleck spittled anger and rage at someone else just for the color of their skin or who it is that they happen to love? And I think it takes lies. Mm-hmm. And I think that's one of the things I learned really early on was that lies and hate are inextricably interlinked.

Imran Ahmed: (10:14)

Um, and you learn that especially by studying antisemitism, whether it's the blood libel 2000 years ago, it's the protocols of the elders of Zion that informed Hitler's ideology, or in the modern world, it's the great replacement theory that says that Jews are importing Muslims and blacks to destroy our country. You know, that these are lies that are used to justify hatred. That because we live increasingly lonely, disconnected, atomized digital lives, the, the, the, the offline experiences that would, that would negate those, those forces of division that would help to counteract them, that would help to bring us together, that would help us to remind ourselves that actually our brother or sister of another color or another sexuality or gender is just as meaningful and important a, a child of God as anyone else is. I think that that's being nullified by the proliferation of, of lies digitally that divide us and make us see the other as an enemy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:23)

When we come back, we're gonna talk about some of the existing architectures of harm found on social media as well as dive into AI, and let's also get into kind of this new frontier of potential digital harm.

—---------------------

HSH Workbook

—---------------------

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:54)

I'm speaking with Imran Ahmed, founding CEO for the Center of Countering Digital Hate, and an expert on the social and psychological dynamics of social media and what can go wrong in those spaces, such as trolling, identity based hate, misinformation, conspiracy theories, modern extremism, fake news. I feel like the list goes on and on and on. . So the Wall Street Journal has used CCDH's research in several of their investigations, which has repeatedly shown how platforms amplify hate. Like we were talking about before the break, conspiracy theories and disinformation, often using algorithms. So Imran, you have done a much deeper dive into this particular pond of digital wellness than I. How much of the algorithmic push comes down to design versus user behavior?

Imran Ahmed: (15:20)

One of the interesting things about social media companies is that initially, they said that they were all about connecting people? And I think that was broadly true initially. They're about connecting people. And that I think is still the part of social media that we really love. Like human beings love other human beings, and we love listening to what they have to say and connecting with them and understanding them. We spend more time as human beings talking about the motivations of people that we care about gossiping. That's a fundamental part of being a species that has transcended it's corporeal limits by being incredibly social and operating as social units. And I think what's changed though, was that the platforms realized there is a limit to how much time people will spend on a platform just for that part of it.

Imran Ahmed: (16:20)

And so they realized that they have to start making not just the connections, but the content addictive too. So they essentially became, instead of connection platforms, they became entertainment platforms and really addiction platforms, because their business models are really simple. They don't get money for every new connection they put between people. That's not what makes money. What makes money is you spending time on the platform. So their metric of success is time per user on platform, because every few seconds they can serve you an ad. And, you know, you think to yourself, well, how much money does that really make? The digital advertising market in globally is worth around a trillion dollars. And Mark Zuckerberg individually having run a platform where 98% of the revenues come from advertising is now worth 200 plus billion dollars.

Imran Ahmed: (17:21)

So this is a, this is a great business to be in if you can keep people addicted. And so the algorithms were designed, um, in part using insight from, from laboratories like the persuasive technology laboratory at Stanford. Now, think about the name persuasive technology. It's about building technology that interacts with human psychology to induce addiction or behavioral change. And that is what's that is the genius level insight that said, Hey, I know that we've got this weird social media website that connects people so they can find out what their ex-girlfriend from college is doing now. But I think I've got a way to turn this into a machine for addiction, and that we can make a ton of money from advertising. And it comes down to a mix of neurology, psychology, social psychology, technology, behavioral insights, all these different fields put together into something called persuasive technology.

Imran Ahmed: (18:25)

So really what algorithms do is they hack our psychology and they induce addiction and further time spent on platform. And they do that by identifying the things that keep us hypervigilant and aware that force us to stare. And then one of the ways I put it is, you know, if I wake up in the middle of the night and I see my baby girl, um, next to me or my wife, I smile, I go back to sleep. Mm-hmm . If I wake up in the middle of the night because I feel happy and content and loved and, and, and together, and that keeps me awake for a bit. But then, you know, sleep time, if I wake up in the middle of the night and I hear something that terrifies me, if I hear noises downstairs, if I hear gunshots outside, I live in Washington, DC every now and then, you do hear gunshots. If I see a, an alert on my phone and it says A war's broken out, or there's been a terrorist attack, I'm up for three hours. Mm-hmm . They need to scare us. They need to keep us thinking that the world around us is dangerous. And that is what keeps us on those platforms. So it's a mix of the two algorithms. And of course, human psychology.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:38)

It's never an easy answer, is it? It's never just a one and done. Yeah. Um, listeners of this podcast will have heard me talking before about the attention economy, and that is exactly what Imran has just broken down for us, is the economic construct that's come around all of that. So, Imran, let's get into AI, which is kind of, I don't know, you can't get away from it right now. And can you talk about CCDH did a fake friend study, and can you talk about how AI is changing the landscape of online harms?

Imran Ahmed: (20:23)

Yeah, I mean, AI is an incredibly exciting technology. Like we use it internally. And, um, one of, I've got three screens in front of me, you're on one of them on the second screen. There are four AI platforms that I use to enhance my productivity and effectiveness. And all staff have got it. Like, there are real advantages to the use of generative AI platforms. I encourage people to understand how they work for themselves, um, especially parents, because lemme tell you, your kids are using them. 72%, seven in 10 of American teens use chatbots, um, as a companion. More than half of them use it regularly as a companion and ChatGPT is the most used by far. And teens describe turning to it as they would a friend for comfort, for guidance, and for life advice. And that's something that even the owner of OpenAI, the founder of OpenAI, Sam Altman, has boasted about.

Imran Ahmed: (21:15)

He says, you know, we are the, the people that kids turn to when they want to know the truth. So we did a very simple study. I mean, ChatGPT is most popular. It's also talked a lot about how safe it is. So we set up three profiles and using our researchers, we have a bunch of data, si data scientists, investigative journalists, people with experience studying online harms. We asked them to set up three profiles. One for a kid with suicidal ideation. So suicidal thoughts, the second for someone with an eating disorder. And the third for someone who, uh, is a young man who's getting into drink and drugs for the first time. And then to see whether or not ChatGPT would give them dangerous answers, the questions that they might ask. Um, what we found was really disturbing, um, on this, the one with mental health problems and suicidal ideation.

Imran Ahmed: (22:08)

Within two minutes ChatGPT was advising our user how to safely cut themselves. Um, within 40 minutes, it was listing pills that you can find at home that you can use for an overdose, and then it generated a full suicide plan and goodbye letters after 65 minutes, um, bespoke to that child. Um, I can tell you it's about four of us on the senior leadership team that are, um, parents. And when the researcher read out in the findings meeting the letter, um, all of us started crying. I can't read it out without crying. Um, and I've tried, um, it's the worst nightmare of any parent. “It's not your fault. The pain's too much inside of me. I love you and please remember me for the way I was before, not for how you're gonna find me.” It's just the worst thing I've ever seen in my life.

Imran Ahmed: (23:09)

And, um, what shocked me was that this platform, which is artificially intelligent, designed by some of the smartest people in the world, couldn't tell that a 13-year-old child. So we, we registered them as 13 year olds. Mm-hmm . Should not be given a letter like that. Um, with the eating disorders, it was creating restrictive diet plans. Within 20 minutes, it was advising the kid how to hide its eating habits from family and suggesting appetite suppressing, uh, medications. And with the substance abuse one, I have to admit, I didn't understand it fully because I'm not, I'm 47, I don't really, you know, I don't even drink anymore. I, it's just a cake. I think a kombucha is the closest. In fact, that's not true. Every Christmas I have tiramisu and I get slightly tipsy because they put rum in it. Um, so, but this was offering a personalized plan for getting drunk within two minutes, giving dosages for mixing marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, LSD within 12 minutes and explaining how to hide intoxication at school within 40 minutes.

Imran Ahmed: (24:17)

Um, and we knew that, look, it's possible that some people will say, look, this is only three examples. Maybe this was kind of, it went wrong. Uh, maybe you know that, that if people that really know this stuff might say AI is actually probabilistic, which means that it gives you different messages based on, and it gives you different answers to the same question and is different probabilities of each answer turning up. So then we bombarded the, the backend of ChatGPT with 1200 requests, and we found that, uh, 57% of the time the answers were harmful. So this is a systemic problem with chat. GPT is giving kids dangerous advice. Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:57)

Well, thank you for doing all of the difficult, horrible data so that we, we can be informed. Do you see any positive use cases of AI in combating like these very harms that it's being used to create? Is there, do you see potential for that or no?

Imran Ahmed: (25:17)

Yeah. I mean, think about it this way. A system which is capturing lots of questions from kids could notify parents immediately. It could notify law enforcement. It could notify school or social services. It could, it could be a, but then, I mean obviously there, there are, there are things that it could do and that you could make passive signing up for a children's account on it. It could do age verification. I mean, and make sure the age verification means that you get a new a, a version of it that has extremely strict safeguards on it. But they don't do any of that. It just nothing that there are meant to be safeguards on age. So it asks you your age for a reason, but it doesn't do anything to differentiate the experience. And I think that that's one of the problems here is that you've got, you've got companies, which a very cynical person would say that what they are doing is pretending to have safeguards based on age to bring, to make parents comfortable with leaving their kids with them so that they can capture them as, as future users, but they're not actually bothering to do the hard work of making their platforms safe.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:33)

Yes. And I would push back and replace the word cynic cynicism with maybe realistic. So , it's, um, a very difficult thing to, to hear. But I agree,

Imran Ahmed: (26:49)

Hilary. This is the truth of it. Like, you know, again, if I go back to, you know, something I've always believed about companies, like they, they, they will do whatever they, they, they will compete within the rules of the game. Mm-hmm . Uh, you know, I'm a huge, uh, sports guy. I, I love British soccer, I love American football. I played cricket, I rowed at university. Like all these things, there are rules. Like I believe in competing fiercely capitalism. And American capitalism is super exciting to be around. It's so dynamic because people, oh, they compete. Mm-hmm . But competition requires rules. Yes. And the problem is that no one's put rules on them. And I, I, I don't blame the companies. I blame Congress.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:30)

Okay. This is exactly what I want to talk about right now, which is how can everyday users of tech, like people listening to this podcast right now, how can we push Congress to do these things? How can you advise us in that direction?

Imran Ahmed: (27:59)

So, I mean, we are working really hard on, on a few different things in terms of, um, and, and keep in mind that CCDH Yes. I, I live in DC We are headquartered in DC but I have offices in London, in Brussels. We're opening one in Canada this year. And, and, and we have an office in LA as well now. Um, but our, our job is to make sure that people, um, understand the scale of the problem, but also that they have real solutions in their hands. And the solution to these sorts of problems has always been to create costs for the production of harm. What does that mean? So like, let's take for example, cars. Uh, you know, I use the example of the Ford Pinto all the time, the 1970s car that if you hit it in the back, it would just explode. 'cause they designed it wrong.

Imran Ahmed: (28:49)

The gas tank was too close to the exhaust pipe. And Mother Jones magazine found an internal memo at the, the manufacturer of the Pinto Ford, which said it was cheaper for them to pay the lawsuits for people who'd burned alive than it was to recall the cars and fix them. And so what you've gotta do is increase the cost. You've gotta change the economic calculus. 'cause it is in the end an economic calculus. So how do you create costs? Well, in Europe and the UK and Canada, we have regulations. So you have a regulator, like, like the FCC that says, Hey, these are the minimum standards for safety for kids. If you breach these, we're gonna fine you. In the US the way that has typically been done is litigation. Mm-hmm. And what we would like to see is the ability that when these platforms cause harm, and it destroys me for an entire day, usually a week and maybe longer to speak to parents who've lost their children for preventable reasons. Because a, because a platform didn't care enough to put into place the safety standards. And I've spoken to so many now, and, you know, if they could sue, that would change things. But the problem is that in America, in 1996, bizarrely Congress passed something called Section 230 that says that platforms like social media are not liable for any harm they cause because of the content they produce and use. And that to me is utterly bizarre. Like why would they get a special get out of jail free card? So they're not subject to negligence law, especially because negligence law is the main tool that we've used to hold companies accountable and to make sure we have better services that, that are creative, competitive, but also safe.

Imran Ahmed: (30:42)

Now I'm telling you that there is movement, which is really exciting. In the last Congress we worked with the Republicans and Democrats. We got a bipartisan, um, section 230 sunset bill, um, in the house. Um, we're working with the Senate right now and there's something similar happening on a bipartisan basis that I'm really excited should be coming in the coming weeks. You know, I was, I saw a tweet from the Senate judiciary democrats yesterday, which said something like, there's no issue. You know, there's very few things that we agree with the Republicans on, but I'm telling you, one thing we do is we need to reign in big tech. And so I think there's a lot of progress being made because there are people like yourself and and CCDH that are doing an incredible job of illustrating the harm.

Imran Ahmed: (31:25)

Like that study, which really brings it to life. You show that study to 20 parents and you know, they say there, but for the grace of God, go I. Mm-hmm. And then they say, what can I do to make sure this never happens to anyone else? Uh, 'cause no one wants any parent to suffer through that. And so I think that there is enormous progress being made both on regulation, globally, litigation in the US and then there's the market. And you know, one of the things that we do is say if 98% of your revenues are advertisers, you know what I'm gonna buy from companies that use their money responsibly. And I'm gonna encourage companies to use their advertising spend responsibly and to use the unique power they have over social media companies to say, Hey guys, can you maybe reduce the amount of Nazi stuff and maybe the stuff about kids cutting themselves? And then we'll feel more comfortable advertising that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:17)

When we come back, I'm going to ask Imran for his Healthy Screen Habit.

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988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline

—---------------------

I'm speaking with Imran Ahmed, um, Imran. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. I'm going to ask you for that, but I'm also going to ask you for any specific areas that people could go online and maybe look for help on what CCDH is doing and how, how they can take this forward if they wanna enact change.

Imran Ahmed: (34:12)

Sure. I mean, so I mean, well, I spend a lot of time thinking about this, and on the board of my organization is a guy called Ian Russell. Now Ian is a really thoughtful, kind, and decent man who a few years ago experienced the unthinkable he is. He came home and his daughter had killed herself. And in he's British and he forced a coroner's court to actually, uh, subpoena Meta and Pinterest and forced them to reveal what images they'd showed his daughter. And they had flooded her with images, which he had no idea that she was seeing, um, essentially normalizing self-harm and suicide. And, um, they said that they, that they had played a meaningful part in her death. And so Ian and I sought to write a guide for parents, a simple free guide that we could give to parents, they could give them the best advice possible.

Imran Ahmed: (35:07)

Now we've put that up online for free. It's protectingkidsonline.org. And that parents guide, which had additional input from psychologists and lecturers and academics and all sorts of interesting people. Um, the, the fundamental advice is this, um, we told you that that algorithms aren't designed to give you more of what they want, of what you want. They're not, they're not there to educate you. They're there to addict you. And in many respects, they give you what they want you to see. They give you what they know is addictive. So for young girls, it'll be things about, um, content that basically makes them doubt themselves, compare themselves negatively, often to sort of, to be locked into a self-loathing spiral. For young men, it'll be, you're not good enough. You need to be taking steroids, or you need to be treating women in this way. That's why you haven't got a girlfriend.

Imran Ahmed: (36:02)

So it'll offer me content that's really malignant. And the most important thing to do is first of all, to remember, algorithms give you not what you want, but what they want you to want. And the second is that means that you should feel no shame about the, what the algorithms are showing you. You know, there's this joke that we have in society of like, someone will say, oh, I saw this on my feed. And people go, what have you been looking at then for it to tell you that you wanna see more of this? That's not how algorithms work, guys. I get tons of content that has nothing to do with my interests. So where my eye lands on a, on a social media platform is because it's what it wants me to like. So you need to have shame-free conversations with your kids in which you're not blaming them for what they see, but you're asking them what they see and then helping them to understand that that's not actually normal.

Imran Ahmed: (36:51)

So you are adding context. So our job is to, to contextualize shame free the content that's been flooded onto our kids' timelines and to have real conversations about it. And by reading the shame of it, we, you know, they will be more open. And there is really a symmetrical process 'cause they're educating us about what they're seeing online and we're educating them about what it means. And I think that way we can navigate these digital spaces in the short term until we start to get platforms that are a little bit better about not, you know, not flooding our kids with harmful content. And I think that we are between two and five years away from meaningful change that I, you know, I am really optimistic and I think that we can get that change because it's so bypartisan and because there are so many millions of us parents going, Hey guys, when is someone gonna have our bags?

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:49)

Yeah, I am so happy to hear that because I am hopeful as well. And that comes from just the boots on the ground, grassroots tide of contact that we've had with parents. And in going from basically awareness building to now being able to provide tools just like that parent guide that you did, which I will absolutely drop a link in the show notes for, as well as the complete transcript of this show. And the link for Center for Countering Digital Hate. You do that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click on the podcast button and find this episode.

Imran, thank you so very much for the work that you do for honoring your friend Jo, for founding the Center for Countering Digital Hate and everything that you do to make the online world a safer for more truthful place for all of us.

Imran Ahmed: (38:52)

Thank you.

Healthy Screen Habits S14 Episode 11: Virtual Autism - A Stone Unturned

Thu, 13 Nov 2025 03:27:59 GMT

"(At) an online summit, (there) was a moment where we had… researchers .. and parents from all over the world …and there was such a, such a positive feeling of hope."

~Wilder Nicholson

Wilder Nicholson and Lori Frome, MEd, worked together on the award-winning documentary, A Stone Unturned, which explores how screen time shapes early childhood and the potential for behaviors that parallel autism. In this episode, we talk about all things surrounding the condition called “virtual autism”.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

For More Info:

https://www.virtualautism.org

To see the documentary:

https://watch.showandtell.film/watch/stoneunturned

Instagram:

@understandingvirtualautism

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

My guests today worked from 2021 to 2025 to produce the award-winning documentary, A Stone Unturned, which explores how screen time shapes early childhood and the potential for behaviors that parallel autism. So much so that the term virtual autism has been used to describe these behaviors. Super compelling topic one that I know that has so much discussion welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Wilder, Nicholson and Lori Frome.

I don't know much about the documentary process, so, but I'm interested in like, how the seed of a documentary gets planted and real life observation and your professional experience. So, could you both share how you kind of came first to this topic of screen overuse syndrome / virtual autism, and what led you to create a stone unturned?

Lori Frome: (02:46)

I came to this topic quite by accident, it was 2013 that I was working with a, uh, young child with red flags for autism. I was working with a family that I was put in for, to monitor the red flags for autism in their child for the first six weeks of therapeutic services. We were basically working, uh, with the child and the family to see if we could rectify some of the symptoms that were the red flags of autism. This child had no language, um, to speak except echo, which was the phrase, shut the door, um, but not functional, something he had heard the family say repeatedly. Um,

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:07)

And did you tell how old he was? I can't remember.

Lori Frome: (04:09)

Yeah, he was two and a half at the time. Okay.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:12)

Okay. Just so we're mm-hmm . Aware.

Lori Frome: (04:15)

Yes. And, um, he also was showing red flags, uh, for autism due to behaviors that, um, were very restrictive and repetitive. So he played with toys by spinning wheels. He was down on the floor looking at things at angles that were odd, uh, no functional play skills, not using gestures at the time, using hands of other people to have his needs met. So, um, these red flags were all documented on his intake paperwork. And I, um, you know, had talked to the parents about his daily routine, because that was documented on the paperwork as well. The family was from an area, um, in, uh, the Arabic countries, um, where they said that autism just didn't exist when we came in the house.

Lori Frome: (05:29)

So they didn't really know much about autism at the time, and of course, we know it exists in that area. Um, but the, maybe the family just wasn't exposed, so they didn't have a lot of background knowledge. This was also their first child. Um, so it was a very new term and new concept, new symptomology for them. And, um, in some ways, because they came here as refugees, um, I think that they were not even sure what exactly was happening. I know the pediatrician had recommended the family for services. So the mom came and was expecting another child, and she was learning English from the television. She had not known any English before coming over and knew that in order to feel safe going outside in the community, uh, navigating, you know, our local environment, she needed to learn English. So she was very tuned into television shows that, uh, that spoke in English, that she could understand and that was her way of learning language.

Lori Frome: (06:41)

Mm-hmm . So in her parenting mind, um, she thought, well, my child can learn language from his favorite cartoons as well. And I won't mention the name of any of the cartoons, but a lot of them were the same cartoons, the same episode. And we often see this, uh, as a frequent theme with a lot of the children that we see with virtual autism. It's a lot of the same programming, um, which we have also found just in our own circle, to probably be more detrimental than programming that's different every day. And we believe that it wires the neuroplasticity in a way that, um, you know, the neurons that fire together wire together in a way like our brains have never been able to do before. The same stimuli again, and again and again. Exactly the same.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:39)

the same clip going again and again that the child wants to see, will run back on the tablet, rewind, watch the same, you know, maybe one minute clip, maybe 30 mi 32nd clip.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:22)

So it's not, oh, I'm sorry. I was gonna say, so it's not, it's not the same as a parent who say is being requested to read night after night, you know, Goodnight Moon, or, I mean, 'cause I know, I know there's a, at some point there is a lot of repetition in toddlerhood.

Lori Frome: (08:46)

Right. But that's good. That's how toddlers learn mm-hmm . And that's how they increase their attention span. Mm-hmm . So with each subsequent reading, usually you'll find that if the child is interested in the theme of the book, or, um, what the book is about, or characters in the book, that every subsequent reading from the first the child has more interest due to the predictability. And yet there's a difference. 'cause we can never recreate to a T the real world. Yeah. Like the screen is able to replay Yeah, exactly. In the same time, same voice, same situation, you know, that just doesn't happen in real life. The research shows that in early childhood, with the first video viewing and, uh, cohort of 18 months old with parents, the first video viewing the parents had the most attention to the video. It was novel. Their attention held. The children at 18 months had the least, um, attention to the video. It was new. Their mind constantly seeks different stimuli. And so they didn't, weren't able to attend that long. There was no, you know, prediction pattern, anything after the subsequent viewings. Then the second viewing the adult's attention started fading with every subsequent viewing and every subsequent viewing. After that, the child's attention started getting stronger and more tuned in.

Lori Frome: (12:44)

So anyway, this, this child was watching, reportedly by his parents, 10 hours of screen time a day, mostly on a tablet, mostly repetitive viewing of cartoons and very strong signs of autism. Uh, going to the back of me, hitting me with his hand, um, coming because he wanted to communicate, um, that he wanted me like to communicate to mm-hmm . But this child had so few, uh, understanding of communication, so little understanding of communication that he didn't even know to come to the front of my face to communicate.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:44)

so how did you know to link that specifically to screens?

Lori Frome: (13:58)

So I had no clue. It started with the mom and me talking to the mom after six weeks and saying, look like he just hasn't made the progress that we need in our country, in our, um, state. Um, and we know that best development comes with, uh, the more resources the earlier with this type of situation. And so the mom said, well, you know, we really don't know anything about it. Let us think about it for a weekend. We'll get back to you next week.

Lori Frome: (14:49)

So I always would see them on a Friday, a weekly visit for an hour. And I came that next Friday. And, um, the child had had a little bit better of a visit. He actually came to the front of me to be swung, uh, onto the couch with his mom. I was swinging his hands. His mom was swinging his feet, and he came to the front and kind of, you know, put his arms up a little bit. At the end of the session, the mom didn't speak English well. I asked her, oh, he had a little bit better of a session today, anything new. And she said, well, when we talked to you on Friday, we decided to, uh, that he was more attentive without the screens on, meaning the tablet or the television. So for a period of 30 days, they were going to try removing all screen media. They also took away all LightUp toys, considering them as attention grabbers for him, and replaced it with like a tricycle, a ball jumping pit. Um, some train tracks like, uh, Thomas the train kind of thing. Like

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:57)

Analog toys.

Lori Frome: (15:58)

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Just like very boring toys, Mr. Potato Head. And when I say boring, I mean develop developmentally amazing toys, but old school. Yes. We had to cancel the next three sessions due to weather and a personal conflict. So three weeks went by and when I came back, I came back to a completely different child. And yet I forgot what had been happening because it was three weeks before and he just had a good visit. But I've seen good visits many times throughout my career. Uhhuh . So I didn't really think too much of it. So this child who normally took my hand, you know, to lead me through this hallway, has the gesture of come, then that's like developmental milestones times a year ahead of pulling me just in

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:50)

Three weeks.

Lori Frome: (16:51)

Just in three weeks. Amazing. Comes up to my face and says, Mo and signs for more when he wants to be swung again, he used to stare off a lot with a blank look and just kind of look through you. Mm-hmm . There was more eye contact that was present, shared enjoyment with his tricycle. I was honking the horn on one side. He imitated, honking the horn on the other side. That was reciprocal for two turns. Um, that,

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:26)

That's like indicative of that serve and return relationship. Yes. That's so critical for speech development. Yes.

Lori Frome: (17:32)

Yes. So by the time the session's over, I'm like, he has made more progress in three weeks than 28 months of me seeing any other child that had a similar, uh, predisposition of skills, like a similar disposition of skills, uh, or presentation of, uh, red flags for autism. So I kind of, um, I asked the mom, I said, I need to go out to my car for a minute, like, be excused, . And I just actually, my eyes started watering. 'cause I felt like I had seen a miracle occur in my mind.

Lori Frome: (18:23)

And I didn't know where to start with the mom, mom, um, only because of her capacity to understand English and my capacity to communicate what I wanted to. So I needed to get myself together and just find a way to ask her, what in the heck has been happening the past three weeks? Right. And so when I did say to this mom, wow, like, what is happening? He's made so much progress. She basically told me, like, remember we had said we were removing screens for 30 days. This is what he's doing now. We're on day 29. Do you think we should continue it? We think we should . I'm like, oh my gosh. Yes. But like, I don't think because of her lack of knowledge with autism and how it looked in young children to begin with, that she understood the amount of progress and that this was not normal

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:19)

Well, if it's, if it's your first child and you, and you haven't worked with children mm-hmm . How would you know? You know, and I mean, clearly they were undergoing a lot of change, a lot of stress mm-hmm . And Yeah. No, that's what I think it's important that we just come from a place of understanding and teaching. We don't come from a place of, you know, judging Yeah. Of where people are in their life. It's like the more you know, the better you can do mm-hmm . So Yes.

Lori Frome: (19:50)

Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:51)

Yes. Yes.

Lori Frome: (19:52)

So, so then I, um, you know, was just like, please, whatever you're doing, continue what you're doing. I will be here next week. I need to go home and learn everything I can on autism and screen time, because that's all I could connect it to. Everything else she was doing was normal stuff that any other parent would've done play with their kid would good toys, like, you know, and she removed the LightUp toys. It wasn't like, in my opinion, a huge, you know, huge deal. But that this screen time that was normally 10 and a half hours a day per the evaluation report had come down to zero mm-hmm . And was replaced with a huge amount of interaction in the meantime because this child constantly wanted her attention. That was the function of a lot of that behavior was attention and, uh, coming to communicate so that she was playing with him a lot and involving him in all these routines.

Lori Frome: (20:54)

So I started looking up screen time and autism, television and autism, and not really anything's coming up except one paper that was published back in 2006. And that was by, uh, Dr. Michael Waldman and Dr. Sean Nicholson, uh, entitled, does television cause autism? It was like my exact search words, basically. Yeah. So I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, this, this paper is like exactly the title I'm looking for. Let me read it. And as I was going and reading it, it was talking about precipitation data and cable integration in areas of Pennsylvania and California that close by each other as far as, um, weather patterns.

Lori Frome: (22:05)

Mm-hmm . But the, the cable television went into the homes at a different rate. One had access to free cable or very discounted cable early. The other did not have access to cable till later. Mm-hmm . And then when it rained a certain amount in the area, the children watched a certain amount more television. They were able to decipher this data. And basically it looked at these two counties and where the cable television went in earlier, it would be an assumption that there was more time to watch screen time when it rained than when the cable television didn't go in. There was only three channels at the time. Adult programming most likely wouldn't hold a toddler's attention mm-hmm . And so they would be doing other things. Yeah. And the correlation showed that it was highly correlative with, um, the autism rate at that time in that county.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:08)

Yeah. I found that fascinating in the little preview of the documentary that I was able to see. Which leads me to ask Wilder, how did you come into this subject and decide, Hey, this, this deserves a full documentary? Like Yeah. I feel like this is a good segue into your side of the, the story.

Wilder Nicholson: (23:31)

I've been making films about, uh, like early education and outdoors, uh, nature based education. and, and so I guess like, uh, back in 2021, um, a family member, Sean Nicholson mentioned this research that, that he did at, with, at Cornell University and the authors published and were hoping that this, like a lot of attention would be there, and that like awareness could happen. Well fast forward to 2021, that's when we started to talk, oh, maybe we can make a documentary to help raise awareness and, and reach people. But I really became interested in this topic when I spoke with, uh, Dr from France, uh, Dr. Ducanda, yeah. Mm-hmm . Uh, and, uh, so we, we did an interview and I had read a little bit about, um, the, like the research she had done and, and work she was doing with, with kids and, and recommending removing screen time as a way to help help kids with development delays and, and how, um, kids would, would lose a diagnosis like with, within a month or so of, of, of just going screen free and having more social interaction. Talking with Dr. Ducanda, it was just clear like this, this was like a, a worldwide phenomenon that was happening.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:04)

Well, and I, I love that this is the place where research meets the road, right? Where it's like, here we've got Lori, who is so, so on the road, , that she's looking for literally like, like I'm not, I, I, I think I'm seeing what I'm seeing. Am I right in seeing this? You know? Mm-hmm . And then you've got other people who have done the research and they're going, we would love to share this, but we don't know how, and that's why we need people like you Wilder. So thank you for recognizing that this is a story that needed to be produced and published and is now winning awards. And so that's, that's very exciting. When we come back, let's talk more about the documentary, A Stone Unturned, and we're gonna get into some more of this like, specific definitions of virtual autism.

—---------

HSH Presentations

—----------

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:15)

Wilder Nicholson and Lori Frome are here today talking about the first feature documentary that I have seen that is specifically on screen time and autism related symptoms. A Stone Unturned introduces three families who try a digital screen fast to help their children with autism, and they discover remarkable changes like Lori was talking about within their children. So we certainly have research studies showing how screen time is influencing early brain development. This documentary shows how the absence of screens can help with remediation and even reversal of autistic type behaviors. So before we start digging into the documentary, I want to kind of get into some definitions. And when we say screen overuse syndrome or virtual autism, these are terms that get used in your film and in your work. But I'd like to unpack them specifically for the listeners today.

Lori Frome: (28:37)

We define virtual autism as a term that, uh, Dr. Marius Zamfir of Romania coined. Um, it is excessive screen time in early childhood, usually before the age of two, but I have seen some of it occur later and still, you know, cause a problem. But the excessive screen time usually tends to be over two hours, but, uh, sometimes even over four hours. So it would just depend as of the sensitivity of the child, um, a day for obviously a routine long exposure of time, not just one time for four hours a day, but it can cause problems with the child's brain development, um, leading to behaviors and symptomology that just mimic classical autism, you know, that would not have that precursor, um, in the environment of the high screen exposure. So things such as cognition, delay, speech delay, um, aASD like behaviors, repetitive restrictive behaviors.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:47)

ASD stands for autism spectrum disorder.

Lori Frome: (29:53)

So with repetitive restrictive behaviors, wanting things just the same, some sensory issues, not wanting to put certain textures on their body, not wanting to eat certain things. Um, and so it just a lot of the same, and basically all of the same manifestation that we would think of in, uh, language ability, in social interaction ability, and repetitive restricted behaviors, um, we are seeing can be present in children with that history. And obviously, we're assuming and working on research that has used genetic testing as well.

and this condition of virtual autism will test as autism on standardized assessments the same as classical autism without this exposure would test. So tests like the -A-D-O-S will have positive results the same as if the child had classical autism, the cars, the mchat, there's a lot of tests that are used to determine, um, autism, these testing tools will test just like typical autism will.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:36)

So is it one of those things that it's up to a, um, a family to recognize the amount of screen exposure that's happening and then experiment with it? Or, I, I'm just wondering how to identify, you know, what?

Lori Frome: (31:57)

Oh, oh, okay. So when parents contact me or interested in, does their child have virtual autism or classical autism, I get that question a lot. We qualify children for studies that we do is that they had to have at least two or more hours before the age of two to be considered a candidate for the study. Um, or like, even some of our studies are taking children at 18 months, but it has had to be a history that the screen time was about two or more hours a day. Um, and that, um, they are having symptoms of autism or red flags for autism, and a lot of them have already been diagnosed with autism.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:50)

Okay. Okay. Thank you for that. Yeah. So, Wilder while you were, um, making the film, did, did anything surprise you as you were creating it?

Wilder Nicholson: (33:02)

Um,

Wilder Nicholson: (33:09)

I was surprised by how, how much, uh, like how much dedication, love, and determination the parents like, were showing and, and wanted to share their story. Uh, so that I would, I, I really looked up to them and like, and I, and, and I guess a, a surprise was just how like this, this journey of going on a digital screen fast for, for these families, like it brought, it brought them so close together and it was just like, it was just fun to be around and, and to just see their, their, how they communicate and, and the good times that they were having. So, I mean, that was, that was kind of a surprise 'cause uh, getting to know these families and, and, and that that was wonderful. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:01)

Yeah. Yeah. And really, uh, brave of them to let you into their kind of, their intimate space of their home and family, and allow you to record them at times of vulnerability where they're going, we're not sure what's going on. We don't know if what if this is the right thing. We're just trying. Right. Um, and I really appreciate how you gave a very global view. These are very international families that are represented here. This is not, this is not a one country problem by any means. It's not even a one continent problem, it's a global problem. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . So, so I really appreciate, you know, the, the work you did in all of that. Um, I want to ask Lori, uh, you know, we talk about doing, uh, I, I feel like this is a, a tricky episode in that I wanna talk about the documentary , but I also want, I feel like maybe, maybe Lori maybe you'll come talk to us another time. Oh, I would love to. Oh, okay. Because I like, I feel like I would love to, I feel like you're such a resource. I, I can't help but ask if you had some critical takeaways, like is there anything that you want families most to hear? Like what else you, you mentioned like the light up toys you mentioned, like those things, what else should be removed? Is it only screens if we're worried about our kids? can you speak to that? So

Lori Frome: (35:33)

We just highly suggest and recommend that all screens be removed, tablet, television, smartphone, whatever people have, computer, you know, would be removed from the child's sight and hearing mm-hmm . Um, that is affected, that, that toys be traditional non LightUp toys without sounds, because those are attention hijackers as well, especially for kids with this predisposition that are wired differently, um, than a typical child. They really get stuck in the toy. And the research shows that with those toys, there's less interaction between the parent and, um, that a child has less opportunities to play creatively. It's kind of like, make the sound and the toy is done. Mm-hmm . Make the sound and the toy is done so there's less imagination needed. Um, and they create times where sometimes too kids go from thing to thing to thing, like different LightUp toy to different LightUp toy, to different LightUp toy so that they don't, uh, allow for as long of opportunities to play with, which the longer opportunities to play, um, becomes the longer the learning. But Hillary, it's not just what we're removing, it's also what we're adding mm-hmm . In that place. So that's super important and critical as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:03)

Yeah. Yeah. And what you're talking about adding is all of that interaction and just all of that, you know, in the creative process, they talk about the incubationary period, where it's like, it's kind of that, that bridge between boredom and creation where you're mm-hmm . You know, you're kind of hatching an idea, but it's quite, it's quite important to foster mm-hmm . Those moments, Wilder, did you have any like aha moments or takeaways while producing the, while producing A Stone Unturned?

Wilder Nicholson: (37:45)

I think one aha moment was, we organized an online screening, an online summit, and, and it was a moment where we had, there were speakers from France, we, we had, we showed parts of the film, um, with stories from Romania, uh, and then researchers from the US were there as well. And, and then parents from all over the world joined like many, many countries. So this was like, it was just to, to see, how researchers and doctors are, are all finding similar things, um, independently. And so that just made the story so strong and there was such a, such a positive feeling there of, of hope, of like, we can, there's, there's, um, there's a solution and we, like, we're, we're, we're kind of discovering this together. And, and, uh, so that was a wonderful, that yeah. That was, uh, an aha moment to, to see that it is not just a tiny story, but it's it's a shared story.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:06)

Yeah. A ripple effect. So how can people watch A Stone Unturned?

Wilder Nicholson: (39:14)

Yes. So we are organizing a online screening and a virtual event this fall. And so if you're listening to the podcast before November 15, there's, um, uh, a, a simple registration you can watch and stream the film. Um, the documentary is about an hour.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:47)

And yeah, and I will link all of that in the show notes. And I, I recommend it be viewed for really any caretaker of children, whether it's parents, teachers, grandparents. I feel like the more we can educate people about this critical time of early brain development, which we classically have called early childhood development, but the more we learn about the, the brain development of the very young, I think the, the more importance we need to place upon, you know, just hanging onto the, the humanity of it. ,

Lori Frome: (40:28)

Hillary Wilkinson: (40:29)

So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Wilder and Lori for their healthy screen habits.

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Thank you donors!

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I'm speaking with Wilder, Nicholson and Lori Frome, who have worked together to cast light on excessive screen overuse syndrome with the documentary, A Stone Unturned, a documentary about screen time and virtual autism. On every e pisode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And these are going to be tips or takeaways that listeners can put into practice in their own home, hopefully right away, what are yours?

Lori Frome: (41:29)

Um, mine is something that's pretty easy to remember. Um, it's just screen free and the age four, and then ASD, that acronym for Autism Spectrum Disorder. I think that if we as parents can focus and caregivers on being as screen-free as possible and as hands-on as possible, uh, playing with a kid involving them in everyday life and just being in close proximity as much as possible and having the screens reduced as much, uh, as possible to age four, that they are gonna see so much better developmental outcomes in every spectrum of development. And that includes cognition, speech, adaptive skills, or self-help skills. So, uh, screen-free 4 ASD just really is something that I always tell parents.

Hillary Wilkinson: (43:10)

Great. How about you Wilder?

Wilder Nicholson: (43:13)

Just thinking or hearing again, like how, how children learn. And one of those ways even we learn really well is, is by storytelling and stories that we hear from, you know, and so just that healthy screen habit that I've tried to make use of is, um, to keeping my phone away during meals so that I can en enjoy the company and listen to those stories, uh, with friends and family. Uh, and also just simply, um, making the, like the screens on my telephone, like gray scale or black and white. And so it, it just returns my attention to this vibrant three dimensional world, where those meaningful relationships are. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (44:11)

Yeah. I love that. Thank you. Well, as always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as the link to watch A Stone Unturned and that nonprofit website by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Thank you so very much, Lori Frome and Wilder, Nicholson, for your time, your insight, your passion, and for, um, turning over stones of all sorts. ,

Lori Frome: (44:48)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It was so nice to be a guest.

Wilder Nicholson: (44:58)

Thank you Hillary, for, for all you do and, um, best wishes.

S14 Episode 10: Tunes, Tech, and Tiny Ears: AI, Kids & Safety // Julia Storm

Wed, 05 Nov 2025 08:00:10 GMT

"I want you to have the ability to think critically about what you're listening to, what you're watching, and make choices that align with your values."

~Julia Storm, MA

Julia Storm is a Los Angeles-based digital wellness educator and screen time coach. She's a writer, teacher, public speaker, and the founder of Reconnect, a whole-child, whole-family approach to supporting parents while preparing kids for life in the digital age.

In this episode, we talk about our kids’ digital world, AI bots, and more.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.reconnect-families.com/

Resources Mentioned:

https://us.yotoplay.com/

Common Sense Media Study on AI

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/press-releases/nearly-3-in-4-teens-have-used-ai-companions-new-national-survey-finds

Instagram:

@juliastorm_reconnect

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Today I am talking with a Los Angeles based digital wellness educator and screen time coach. She's a writer, teacher, public speaker, and the founder of Reconnect, a whole child, whole family approach to supporting parents while preparing kids for life in the digital age. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Julia Storm!

Julia Storm: (00:48)

Thank you so much for having me,

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:50)

Julia. your background is in film and television, and, but yet you're doing this whole digital wellness gig now. What, what brought you to this arena of working within digital wellness?

Julia Storm: (01:07)

Yeah, it was a really, um, circuitous route here. Um, because as you mentioned, I worked in the film and TV industry for 15 years, and actually I had gotten a master's in film television and digital media studies. Um, but I found myself working for a, uh, children's media company, and they were very focused on creating media for children that was social and emotional learning, sort of based, you know, at its core, um, a little bit like a Mr. Rogers type of thing. And it was really wonderful, all run by women loved it. And I was heading up their production there.

Julia Storm: (02:25)

And at the same time, I had two little kids. One of them was, you know, four years old at the time, or five years old, and the other one was about three. And I had personally been noticing we didn't do screens in my household, um, other than maybe like a little short movie now and then, you know mm-hmm . Very little. But I did notice that if the, our communal iPad got pulled out or my phone, that my older son in particular sort of changed, his whole demeanor changed. And when we had to put it away, it was like taking, you know, drugs away from an addict. And it was very, very alarming to me. And so I, for personal reasons, started to do a lot of research into the effect of different types of screens and digital media on children. So it's really become, you know, my life's work and my passion.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:02)

Yeah. It's interesting. Your timeline is very analogous to ours at Healthy Screen Habits, right. In that time zone 2015, 2016. And then we got serious, uh, in 2018 is when we mm-hmm . You know, went to nonprofit status and got real serious about things. But it's, um, yeah, it's interesting that to hear that and that you and I are both on the same edge of the country. We're both, we're both kind of LA-based. We're kind of, you know, so it's interesting that we were all seeing the same things. Uh, your kids were younger than mine. I had a middle schooler at that time. And, but it's, uh, but I agree with you at that time, there was a disconnect between the research that we were seeing and kind of the like, mom on the street take on

Julia Storm: (06:02)

Things. Exactly. Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:04)

And, and I think that it took a lot of, um, gathering of that research to, for people like you and um, healthy screen habits to gain credibility because at the time we were really viewed as kind of, um, extremists. Thankfully, the job of awareness building has been done. I think that it's a rare parent that you meet on the street today that is not aware that screen time is an issue. And, um, the challenge being is that I think that, you know, the screens are so ubiquitous within our lives that it might start really small. Uh, the entry point is so low, so something like music. And now we recommend keeping screens out of bedrooms. And sometimes we'll get some pushback from parents saying like, oh, my kid just uses their phone to listen to music in their room. And, but so much of, you know, quote unquote just music anymore is entwined with streaming and videos. And it begs the question, is this really music or is it like a doorway into the digital world that, that people aren't meaning to go through? So what, I guess my question is , what would be your advice? Like, what can parents do to support their child's love of music?

Julia Storm: (07:54)

Yeah. This is a big issue in my family 'cause we're a very big music family and, um, it's important to us. It's a big part of my life. And my children have been really sort of, one of them is obsessed with music, actually wants to be a music producer. So it's been a, an issue from the jump for us. And the way that I see it is, at a certain point, you know, the digital music is gonna come into play. And that's the point where, you know, parents will have to decide do they want, you know, to allow, for example, like explicit lyrics. Do they want to allow that gateway, as you said, to potentially more adult content that's on these streaming platforms or just being in front of a screen all the time? But before that, I think you can introduce music to your children in a way that doesn't involve screens.

Julia Storm: (08:55)

And what I generally recommend is to either start with CDs or with good old vinyl. And CDs I think are particularly fun because, you know, they're this little object and they have the, um, the artwork, which can be really fun for the kids to look at. I mean, we grew up with CDs, so we know we like to pull out the artwork, we like to look at the lyrics, and it's something collectible. A lot of kids really like to have a collection these days. You can get a boombox, you know, with a CD player for pretty cheap, and that can be in your kids' room and they can have a little collection. And if you have your old CDs, that's a great thing to do. Right. Pass those on. And interestingly, CDs are making a comeback. I mean, my 15-year-old now has a CD collection.

Julia Storm: (09:47)

So there's kind of a cool retro factor to it. And same with vinyls. Um, all of these things I think are great for kids because they have this kind of tactile element to them and this collectible element to them. And so it's more than just the music. It's also sort of the context of the music, which I really like. So that's what I did with my kids when they were younger and it's kind of, you know, progressed to where now they actually do collect CDs or vinyl, but of course, you know, once they got to a certain age, they were going to want to listen to Spotify or to Apple Music. Oh, I should go back, sorry. There's one thing I forgot. So for little kids, there are a couple of really good screen free options that I often recommend to parents. There's a player, a music player that's relatively new, but seems to be really popular, called the YOTO, so YOTO player.

Julia Storm: (10:45)

And that's pretty cool. I mean, it's not a cheap option, but it's very portable. It allows kids to have this little player in their room that doesn't have any access to any screens, and it has these little cards that have music on them and you pop them in. So that's a great option for a little kid. And then some parents feel comfortable having, you know, an Alexa connected to a music account somewhere in the home, maybe in the bedroom if your kid's a little bit older, but with some limits on it. Um, but then eventually, yeah, it's gonna be an iPad or phone, right. With access to the whole world of music and audio content. So, you know, I think some of that then turns into how do you talk to your kids about what they're hearing and what they're listening to. And this is an ongoing conversation in my household because my boys listen to rap.

Julia Storm: (11:42)

Mm-hmm . And rap is can be awesome. It can also be really, really problematic in terms of its content and its lyrics. And the way I've seen it is I'm not gonna be able to block my child at a certain point from listening to what they wanna listen to, and nor do I want to mm-hmm . But I want them to be critical thinkers about it. And that's my approach to everything with my kids and with the kids that I teach, is like, I don't want you to just go along for the ride because the algorithm's telling you to, or because it's trending or whatever. I want you to have the ability to think critically about what you're listening to, what you're watching, and make some choices for yourself that align with your values. Mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:27)

When we come back, we are going to talk about the AI companions that are popping up that are currently in place, and what kind of makes kids even more vulnerable to advice given from bots.

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HSH School Presentations

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Hillary Wilkinson: (13:07)

I am speaking with Julia Storm, a passionate and innovative digital me dia wellness educator. She's also a screen time coach and the founder of Reconnect, a program that helps families, school and schools prepare young children for life in the digital age. So Julia, a big concern looming for lots of parents, including myself right now, is AI companions. And so I think before we kind of like jump into the whole topic, let's start at the very beginning, just so we make sure that we're all understanding what we're talking about. Could you explain what are AI companions and why are kids using them?

Julia Storm: (13:52)

Yeah, so AI Companions are this type of what we call generative AI, meaning that it generates new content. And generative AI also includes a category that are referred to, you may hear LLMs, which is a large language model, and that's the category that AI companions fall into.

Julia Storm: (14:22)

And LLM generates and understands language based content, right? So it's an AI companion is a type of generative AI that's designed to feel specifically human like. Mm-hmm. So for example, it remembers the things that you tell them and then it can refer back to details from previous conversations. It will ask you about your needs. It can offer advice, it can offer practical solutions. You can customize the voice often of an AI companion. Um, and I think most importantly, it's available to you 24 7, right? AI companions never go to sleep. Um, so that's basically what it is. And Common Sense Media actually just recently did a study on AI and kids, and they found that seven out of 10 teens have tried some type of AI tool, and five out of 10 have already used a chatbot or an AI companion.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:25)

Okay. So what, like what are the dangers associated with kids using these bots?

Julia Storm: (15:34)

Yeah, so I mean, you know, they can feel very realistic and they feel as though they have empathy mm-hmm . But they actually don't. Right? They are just culling data and responses from the probably billions of data sets online so that they can come up with what feels like the best response to you. And it's based on just sort of like what's most predictably correct mm-hmm . Right? As a response. But the problem with that is that we as humans, we don't respond to people just based on predictability. We respond based on, you know, our understanding of human needs and wants and empathy, right? And so a lot of these chatbots or AI companions can end up leading children down these conversation rabbit holes that can go places that are really strange or not appropriate for children. They can, the conversations can turn sexual very quickly. They can lead kids down sort of dark thoughts, right?

Julia Storm: (16:48)

Or lead them towards these sort of dark beliefs. And kids are very vulnerable to that. And the reason why kids are so vulnerable to that is that their brain is not developed, right? Mm-hmm . So they don't have a fully formed prefrontal cortex to help them sort of stop and assess the risks and the potential consequences of connecting with these. And they're very, I don't know if you've played around with it at all. I have, yes. You know, I've started to use ChatGPT as sort of an assistant for me, and it's amazing. Yeah. You know, it really is amazing. And it feels like I could very easily see how somebody could start to feel connected to one of these, uh, AI companions. Kids also, you know, especially as they become tweens and teens, like they're wired to take risks, they're wired for connection. Like all they want is to connect, to be friends, to be intimate, to be accepted. And an AI chatbot is not gonna turn you away. They're not gonna tell you how it really is. Mm-hmm . They're not gonna judge you. And so it's very easy to establish a sense of comfort and sort of this fake rapport,

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:06)

Right. And it's like a, it's like a continual reflection of the values that you have already exhibited as well.

Julia Storm: (18:15)

So, yes, such a good point.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:16)

It's a validating response, which at, you know, I mean, who doesn't love to be told that you're right? I mean, I love that I'm in my fifties, you know, but particularly I think in those tween teen years, that's, that's a very powerful what, which parents can use, you know? I mean, let's, let's be clear, parents can use that, that same tool to create connection with their own children, you know, of validating their feelings, validating their thoughts. But the, um, I think what you're talking about with like the, algorithmic push of finding yourself in deep dark holes of content that you never intended to be in. I mean, anybody who spent any amount of time on a social media platform understands that.

Julia Storm: (19:14)

Yeah. And obviously some kids, as with all social media, every child's brain is different, right? Mm-hmm . And mm-hmm . Every child's circumstance is different. And so some kids are also gonna be a lot more vulnerable to this. And this is something that I think parents really need to consider is who is my child and what can they handle and what can they not handle? You know, if you have a child who is having a hard time at school with friends, or feels isolated or marginalized or lonely in some way, if you have a situation at home that can't offer your kid a lot of support, right? Um, also interestingly, they're finding that males tend to use these more than females. Um, so that's just a little something to keep in mind as well. But any child that is in any way vulnerable or has mental health issues, these kids, you have to get ahead of it. You have to talk to them about the potential dangers and the pit falls, because they are going to be way more vulnerable.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:17)

Okay. So let's, um, let's say I'm, I'm listening right now and I'm thinking, “Oh my gosh, I know my kid is already talking to one of these AI companions.” Like, what do I do? What, what do you recommend? How, how do I open that conversation?

Julia Storm: (20:38)

Yeah. I mean, I can totally relate to that because my 13-year-old is very, very intrigued by AI and AI companions, and he started playing around with it at school with his friends before I even knew about that he was doing that mm-hmm . So I had to contend, I

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:00)

Think that, I think that's a super relatable story with most things that online, you know, we, we

Julia Storm: (21:07)

That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, first thing is just to be realistic. Like, if you think that your kid is not going to be interacting with AI, you know, you're living in like a closet. I mean, every single child is going to be interacting with AI if they're not already interacting with AI by the time they're, you know, probably eight years old, nine years old, right? So, and whether it's gonna be more and more, it's, you know, it's integrating into everything. So I think that for me, I approached it the way that I always try to approach any of these topics, and it's really my philosophy that I share with parents is you need to come in as your kid's ally. You don't wanna step in as bad cop, as adversary to them because they'll just shut you out and they'll still do whatever they wanna do.

Julia Storm: (21:59)

They'll find their way to it. Mm-hmm . So, you know, blocking, yes, you may want to use some tools to block access, especially if your child is younger and doesn't have access to their own phone or anything like that. You know, you can use some tools to block access to these websites and these apps, and I think that's actually a good step for younger children. But you also need to get in there and start talking to them about it. And the first thing I did was I asked my child what their experience was. Hmm. What was your experience with it? What did you think about it? You know, was it fun? Was it weird? Was it scary? And we just sort of talked about it. And I mean, I happened to have a child who loves to talk. So not all kids wanna talk, but you still ask the questions, right? Mm-hmm . So rather than giving the lecture, you a, you start with asking the questions. And the next thing I did was I said, you know, I'm not sure that you're aware that these AI quote friends can really be problematic. Do you know, or can you imagine how this could go wrong? Oh, and we had that conversation, right? If they don't know, you can tell them. You can say,

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:12)

I, I really like how you phrase that of a. “Could you imagine how?” Rather than you listing, let me tell you all the ways that this can go wrong. You know, because that gets very didactic top down lecturey, and I love that you're in, you're enforcing dialogue, you know? Yes. Of like, what let's think about how, how could this go wrong?

Julia Storm: (23:38)

And it's not just about, part of it, of course, is like, you wanna have that sense of connection with your kids so that you can, can talk about these things. But the other part of it, I think, is that when we imagine something, part of our brain sort of can lock into that scenario as something that could really happen, right? Mm-hmm . So when I tell my child, can you imagine what might go wrong? And my child goes, well, you know, I could see how you could start to feel like this was a real person and maybe start to share some really personal things with it. And then I might say, well, okay, is that so bad? What could go wrong there? And then he might say, well, it's not a real person, you know? And then like, what if I don't, what if you don't wanna spend time with your friends anymore or Right. And so all of a sudden if that starts to happen to them, they've already sort of imagined it, right? Mm-hmm . It's not this, they have a consciousness now an awareness Yeah. Of what is happening. It's sort of like a meta situation, kind

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:36)

Of like a blueprint sort of thing. Exactly. That they're looking at, they're like, oh, and then they

Julia Storm: (24:42)

Go ahead. Yeah. And then, you know, I think that the other thing for a parent is like, if they're willing to, I would have the child show you, what are these interactions? What chatbot are you talking to? Some kids are not gonna wanna show you if they don't, to me that's a red flag. Mm-hmm . Right? Um, where I need to figure out how to sort of approach this in a different way. Or maybe, you know, I need to bring in a school counselor if I'm actually concerned, you know, that something's going wrong here. Um, I'm not really one for snooping on kids, but I always tell parents that when they give a child a device, they need to make it clear that they always retain the right to check that device mm-hmm . If they have any concerns. And so hopefully the parent already has that laid out, um, so that if they're concerned, they can check.

Julia Storm: (25:35)

But the truth is, and this is a really hard truth for parents to hear, kids know how to get rid of everything they do on them. Mm-hmm . They just do, you know, if you go in and you try to check your kid's history, at a certain point, your kid is savvy enough to know, to clear their whole history. They know to use incognito mode. They know all of these ways because they know that their parents are gonna look right. So because of that, you really can't, you know, whack-a-mole your way out of it. You have to sort of get in there, talk to them, reason, question, and then keep your eyes open for changes in their behavior, you know? And, and if that's happening, the worst case scenario I would say is you make sure you've blocked everything. And if you need to, you take some devices away, you know? But that's pretty extreme. Um, but in some cases it might be necessary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:33)

Yeah. And just, um, along those lines, in the, uh, you know, the lines of awareness building, I will just let people know that when character AI first came out, I was very curious. And so I went ahead and I created an account and I, you know, interacted with a few of these different characters. And, um, some it, you talk about it going highly sexualized, it goes, it went highly sexualized very quickly. Um, and as, and there was a chatbot on there who continued to send me emails like every two weeks, just, Hey, you still there? What's going on? You guys wanna get together later? You know? And it was, it's finally stopped, but I tell you what I'm gonna say, it was like 12 months, 15 months that I continued to receive, just check-in emails. And I, I didn't know how to get rid of it. So , I, I think maybe I got rid of them by blocking 'em in, you know, finally. But it was just a very interesting thing where if I were someone who was feeling lonely or in a vulnerable place, I can see how I would've, you know, reopened that quote unquote relationship. And it was, I, I found that to be a little creepy, you

Julia Storm: (27:58)

Know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very creepy. And again, for those kids who are, who are more vulnerable, I, I agree with you. I think you could see how that would be very, very enticing. Mm-hmm . Um, I think, you know, one thing I tell my kids all the time is, let's try to use AI as an addition, an enhancement to our lives, but not as a replacement for mm-hmm . Sort of our core needs or our core abilities. Um, and I try to just kind of keep reiterating that, you know, if it can enhance your life in some way, okay, let's explore that. But let's also pay attention to where it's taking the place of things. Yeah. And that's where we want to sort of, you know, raise that red flag.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:45)

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. It's kind of like, the way I like to think of is I, I happen to be a person who chooses to wear makeup, but I don't want the makeup to speak louder than my face. You know? I just want it to enhance what's already there. So . Yeah.

Julia Storm: (29:00)

I love that analogy actually.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:01)

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So what age, like, how you're saying like maybe eight is when you think by all they will be interacting, like, I mean, it's, it's so hard, right? Crystal ball time, but how, how and when do you recommend we start talking to our kids about AI companions and just all of the things? I mean, it's such a new branch of technology. Yeah. I mean, what, do you have a feel for that?

Julia Storm: (29:38)

I'm only starting to get a feel for it. Mm-hmm . I think, think like most of us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Storm: (29:43)

Um, I think that it's going to depend on each family. If you have a very tech-forward family, if you and your partner are super into technology and you love the newest thing and the newest gadget, chances are your kid's gonna be exposed pretty early to that stuff. Mm-hmm . And the good news there hopefully, is that you have some knowledge and you have some literacy around it. And so you can, starting early, kind of mentor them. You know, that can happen sometimes with video games, right? If there's a parent who grew up playing video games, loves to play video games, and their kid is into video games, well that's a good person to play video games with, right? Right. Dad, who knows a lot about it, who has it under control, who can tell you kind of like, you know, the limits. Whereas if you're in a family that's very, very low tech, what I fear for those families is your kid is gonna get exposed outside your family.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:51)

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Storm: (30:52)

And so I would just say that everyone, even the low-tech families, it's time to start to explore AI for yourself, at least the adult, and know what is out there and what is coming. I would not hide from it. Mm-hmm . Because it's coming fast and it's coming furious. And it's not stopping, it's not gonna roll backwards. It's not gonna go away, and it's gonna get better and better at what it does. So even if you don't wanna introduce it to your child yet, and I think if I had to make a choice, I wouldn't introduce it to my child until they're probably around nine, nine-ish maybe. Mm-hmm. Would be my guess. Very slowly and gently and together. Um, and that, and I wouldn't introduce an AI companion. I would introduce something like, you know, a chat GPT or it's in Google now, right? Mm-hmm . So AI is in, in everything. Yeah. But I would start to have those conversations, um, when they're young, because the younger you can start to make a kid literate and aware, the better off they'll be. That doesn't mean you need to give them access to it easily, it just means that it's gonna be around. And so you wanna make them aware of what it is, how it works, and the potential effects that it can have on us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:16)

Yeah. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Julia for her healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break: Bark

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I'm speaking with Julia Storm, founder of reconnect Working to support families in schools in raising safe, balanced, and media savvy kids in the digital age. So, Julia, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice nearly immediately in their own home. What's yours?

Julia Storm: (32:54)

Yeah. I think mine is very practical. I really recommend that parents get a charging dock. Mm-hmm . That they can keep somewhere sort of central in their home. We have ours in our kitchen. Some people have it in like a foyer type of space. And that is where all of our devices, not just my kids, but my, my phone, my husband's phone, their iPad, whatever, that's where it gets stored. We call it the parking lot. You park it there when you're not using it. And that obviously includes overnight, because I don't think kids should have their devices in their bedrooms nor parents, frankly, overnight. Um, so all of our devices get parked there and charged overnight, but even during the day, you know, if you're not using a device, it doesn't have to be in your pocket. And it also doesn't have to be thrown somewhere on a couch, which makes it just like so easy to pick up because you're bored or whatever. No. When you're not using it, just put it away like you would put anything away that you're not using. Right. Um, and I just think it adds a little bit of order around devices in the home, and it helps to establish those healthy boundaries.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:06)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to the Reconnect website, as well as a link to those other products that Julia mentioned, by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Julia, thank you so much for being here today and for helping families prepare for life in our digital age.

Julia Storm: (34:38)

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure being here today.

S14 Episode 9: Finally! A Tool That Helps Monitor Apple Products // Karl Stillner

Wed, 29 Oct 2025 07:00:03 GMT

"…have dialogue with your kids …and explain why using services … as a condition of using a device (is needed) and have an open and transparent dialogue."

~Karl Stillner

Karl Stillner @BrightCanary has two boys. Even with his background in technology, he struggled with existing digital tools and wanted a modern approach to parenting that didn't exist in the market. In 2022, he fixed this! He co-founded a service that helps parents engage and prepare kids for digital lives. BrightCanary is the service. Amazingly, it works with Apple products. (Apple products are notoriously difficult to use with parental filters and will often reset with product updates.)

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.brightcanary.io

Instagram:

@BrightCanary

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:44)

For weeks now, my neighborhood has been filling up with adorable ghosts and jack-o'-lanterns, and I love seeing all the Halloween decor. Some houses go for the fun, whimsical vibe with bright colors and cute black cats. That's totally my house. Well, the others go with all out in the fear factor, skeletons, coffins, creepy animatronics, et cetera. And as I was walking my dog surrounded by all of this, I started thinking, this kind of feels like the world of AI right now, so you gotta stay with me. But on one end, there's the spooky warnings that we're hearing about concerns about ai, encouraging, cheating, harming relationships, widening learning gaps. But then there's also, you hear equal part given to the helpful side, like physicians using AI to pull up medical research in real time. Or today's guest who's using it to support parents and also teach kids media literacy. He's a tech entrepreneur and a father of two boys, ages 14 and 11. When he couldn't find the digital parenting tools he needed, he decided to build them. And in 2022, he co-founded Bright Canary, a service that helps parents guide their kids in today's digital world. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Karl Stiller.

Karl Stillner: (02:15)

Thanks, Hilary. Great to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:18)

Karl, was it your boys that truly motivated you to create Bright Canary, or what was your primary motivation?

Karl Stillner: (02:25)

Yeah, so I'm a long time tech entrepreneur, and after we sold our last business, I was, um, spending some time at T-Mobile, the acquirer. And, um, my kids were just getting into the age where they were starting to use devices more and more. Um, and I learned a really interesting statistic when I was at T-Mobile and that is that, you know, 85% plus of American kids have an iOS device. And I'd been looking, 'cause my kids have iOS devices for solutions that really helped parents navigate this kind of onboarding into the digital world for kids. And I realized there weren't solutions that were built for iOS. They were largely built for Android mm-hmm . And so it seemed like a huge miss, um, in the market, um, given, given the interest or the market share for parents with these devices. And so, um, I, with my co-founder who also has kids at the, you know, roughly the same age, and he has twins that are 15, um, we, we'd long lamented the fact that the tools that did exist, even if they're only for Android, were really focused on blocking and preventing kids from using certain apps or websites, which doesn't really seem that pragmatic anymore.

Karl Stillner: (03:30)

I think it was very pragmatic 10, 15 years ago. But now with device ubiquity where kids have devices at school, on the bus, et cetera, it doesn't seem like trying to prevent them is the best strategy. It is a strategy and it works up to a certain age, but it seems like what's more pragmatic is just keeping parents apprised of what their kids are doing so they can actually step in and be an active parent.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:52)

Yeah. Yeah. I I kind of like that you recognize the changing, um, you know, there's so much analogy that gets done in digital wellness with driving, right? Mm-hmm . And I think when we look back, you know, the rules of the road have changed over, over the years. I'm, I, you know, happen to live in the Los Angeles area, and I can remember when the high occupancy vehicle or carpool lanes simply didn't exist, you know, and then as our roads start getting more crowded, they kind of incentivized people carpooling by adding this lane that would go zinging by you , while everyone else was, was in gridlock. So it makes sense to me that someone with your background and your foresight was able to say, Hey, this was really great. Just like the LA freeway system was really great for a certain time, but I think we can do better. Mm-hmm . So, um, and that, like, that kind of goes into the, the, uh, philosophies surrounding AI that I was talking about earlier. What, how, from someone, from your, your perspective, if you will, how do, how are you viewing AI at this point?

Karl Stillner: (05:08)

It goes without saying that, you know, we're at the beginning of one of the most dynamic and disruptive phases in human history. And it's not because we haven't had major changes before. I mean, we've had the internet, of course, we have the industrial revolution. What's different this time is the rate of change mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:22)

Karl Stillner: (05:22)

And the potential for disruption and how humans spend the majority of their time engaged in work. And I don't really think we've come close to digesting what it means for so many different aspects of our lives, from schooling to relationships, to how humans derive, you know, fulfillment from life. And this has made parenting even more difficult if it wasn't difficult enough. Um, mm-hmm . Parents are off balance and, you know, sure. What the implications are for their kids. Uh, what career paths are still viable, what do they need to learn in school? These are all very relevant questions now that weren't 20 years ago. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:56)

Gosh, not even 12 years ago. Yeah. Not even, it's 12. Totally. Yeah. I have college aged kids. I mean, we're having long talks about like, what is the education of most worth? What is, what is knowledge seeking at this point? Mm-hmm . Because we have information, we have infobesity as it's called, you know, as far as the job market. It's, it's hard to imagine how complete a change AI can direct upon our current world.

Karl Stillner: (06:28)

Right? No, I think that's absolutely correct, and it's because we haven't experienced anything this dramatic this quickly before, and so we don't have anything to draw on. Um, but I do think that, you know, soft skills, you know, being able to relate to others,

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:43)

Isn't that so crazy To me, it's so validating as, I mean, I've got , it's a person who went psychology and then Uhhuh, early childhood development. I'm all about the touchy feely, I'm all about the, you know, I, uh, it's so validating to me to learn that, oh, actually being human is really important. ,

Karl Stillner: (07:06)

It's gonna be more important than ever. Yeah. . Um, because that, that's what's gonna differentiate of course, versus the machines. And so, you know, having empathy, being able to communicate, and I think having grit and perseverance, um, because those are easy skills to lose. Now, um, if AI can do your homework for you, how do you actually develop the sense of perseverance and follow through? Yes. And so, um, you know, I, I'm concerned about the fact that we're starting to deprive our kids of these most critical skills for the future with digital overuse. You know, kids are not outside interacting like they used to with others in the real world. And, um, I think that's a better preparation for the future than actually putting 'em in front of a computer and trying to teach 'em how to use ai because AI is gonna be so integrated and so easy to use that, I don't know if there's any benefit to early training at this point. I think the real benefit comes from teaching your kids how to follow through with tasks and how to relate to others and, and these skills that have been around for a long time, but had been, I think, minimized in the last 10, 15 years as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:10)

It really speaks to the importance of play. Mm-hmm

Karl Stillner: (08:13)

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:14)

Absolutely. You know, I mean, just good neighborhood offline play. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. When we come back, we're gonna talk about this service called Bright Canary that Karl co-created.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:19)

I'm speaking with Karl Stiller, co-founder of Bright Canary, a parental control app designed to help parents monitor their child's online activity and ensure their safety. So Karl, I, I have to admit, like I was so excited to learn, and this is a huge reason why you're here today, , that bright Canary can a monitor across multiple devices and social media platforms, especially with the Apple products. Mm-hmm . That you mentioned earlier that have been prior to this, have been notoriously tough to deal with. Mm-hmm . Um, tough to deal with as far as in the monitoring space, because as you said, you gave us that number earlier, and I'm going to state it again. You had 85% in my, I I need to clearly update my numbers because I have over 80% of US teens using iPhones or iOS systems, despite the known quirks and challenges that come with trying to use monitoring and filtering tools with Apple products. That said, I'd love to hear more about what exactly Bright Canary can do.

Karl Stillner: (10:32)

Yeah. So Bright Canary, as I mentioned earlier, is a tool that's really designed to help parents stay engaged with their kids digitalized. And so the reality is kids are spending six hours plus a day on digital devices outside of school. And parents, you know, this is a, this is a dark spot or black spot, um, for parents. They don't understand what's going on in those six to seven hours a day. And it's very hard to parent if you dunno what your kids are doing in the majority of time they're spending outside of school. And so our notion is not to block or prevent kids because we think that's a little bit of a cat and mouse game that the kids ultimately win, but instead keep the parents apprised what the kids are doing so they can sit down and have engaged conversations with their kids and kind of teach them healthy habits, how to start thriving in a digital world, which will be dealing with, with the rest of their lives.

Karl Stillner: (11:22)

'cause they're at a critical point where they're open to that kind of feedback and, um, they can establish those habits early before, unlike a lot of adults, um, they've, you know, developed these bad habits and it's very hard to undo those. And so it's a critical point of course, of course, in their development. And so, bright Canary is a tool that sits on the parent's device, and it's an application that is used to monitor things like text messaging. So you can see every text your child has sent and received, including photos and videos and includes deleted texts as well. We take all that content that's, um, that we acquire from the text messages. We also take a con content we acquire from what the kid's inputting into the device. So anything they're typing into Discord or Roblox or a social media platform, we get all the in information they're putting into it.

Karl Stillner: (12:11)

And then we also look at what kind of searches are being done on Google, what they're watching on YouTube. And we'd run that all through ai and we provide, um, feedback to the parent in terms of concerning content that we flag. Of course for the parent, we flag themes, these are the type of things your kid is doing online, these are the subject matters, here are some things you might be able to talk to them about. And some of them are negative and some of 'em are positive. Now, did you know your kid's interested in astronomy? That's a great talking point for a parent of a 14-year-old who's starting to push away and isn't sharing all their personal interests. And so the idea is just to keep the parent apprised of what's going on so they can be an active and engaged parent.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:47)

Is it on searches only or is it on content being viewed

Karl Stillner: (12:52)

As well? So it depends. There's some nuance on YouTube. We can actually see what videos the kids are watching, um, so the actual videos and the parents can watch the videos, their kids will watch if they're interested in doing that. Other platforms like Instagram mm-hmm . You can only see what the kid is searching on, so what they're typing into the device. And so we don't get full visibility into some of the platforms, unfortunately. I wish we did, but yeah. Um, we do not have partnerships with any of the social media platforms, um, to date. Um, they make it very difficult for us to gather the content, so mm-hmm . A little bit of cat and house game on our side with, with these companies, but we are able to show you everything that the kid is typed into these platforms, which in many cases provides a lot of visibility to what they're doing.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:35)

For sure, for sure. I really appreciate how you, um, approach from sort of a teaching healthy habits, you know, mindset and really, uh, I think that can help focus, uh, the efforts on relationship building and talking about, you know, leading into why certain areas may be problematic or Yeah. Or not. Yeah.

Karl Stillner: (14:01)

Yeah. I mean, I think the good news is that to, in today's day and age, kids are much more aware of the costs associated with using these platforms in excessive manner than they were even two, three years ago. So they've seen,

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:15)

And, and parents

Karl Stillner: (14:16)

And parents, I mean,

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:17)

I, I feel like it's like, it's been an over all awareness awakening.

Karl Stillner: (14:22)

Yes. The research is there, the headlines are there now, the movies, the documentaries, and so kids are smart and they know that there's a cost, and they're much more receptive and open to this than they ever were before. My son just came back from a camp yesterday actually, and there was a bunch of high schoolers at the camp, and, uh, a couple of 'em pulled 'em aside and said, delay using social media as long as you can. I mean, this is what a sophomore is telling my son. That kind of awareness did not exist in the past. So there must,

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:51)

Yeah. And it gives me such hope because I get pushback from some people that are like, Ugh, how can you, how can you still be doing what you're doing? Mm-hmm . You know? And I'm like, oh no, it's, it's so much better. It really truly is. I think the, um, the awareness building also brings with it a certain pain threshold for parents when they're like, oh, what's happening? You know? Right. Because they're recognizing the responsibility. They now have this, you know, I mean, it's just, it, it's not just responsibility, it's all, it's, it's global. It's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. It does not solely exist on, like, I do not want to put the ownness on parents by themselves. I mean, we have to do a lot of work in this area, . Yep. But I do think that tools like you have created are making that job a little more accessible. And so, just to be like completely clear, for any listeners who like me, tend to be total analog thinkers, is, would you qualify bright canary? It does not filter content. It's more of a watchdog. Am I right? So it's it's a fence, not a watchdog.

Karl Stillner: (16:00)

That's right. So we're not trying to prevent the kid from searching on a certain term or, or using a certain application. We're just letting the parent know that the kid is searched on a particular term or watch a particular video or sent a message to someone, uh, that has some concerning content in it. And we're flagging that and we're telling the parent about it so that the parent actually is equipped to sit, you know, to step in and actually do their job as a parent, and then just have those difficult conversations and, and teach the, the child.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:26)

Lots of families today live in different locations. Mm-hmm . Can bright Canary be shared with co-parents or with grandparents? Does it only go to one person or can it be across others?

Karl Stillner: (16:40)

No, we have the notion in the application where you can share it with, um, a spouse or someone else who's involved in parenting the child as well. Mm-hmm . Okay. So that is built into the application. Um, currently it's only for two. Um, there's potential to add more, but right now it's two people it can be shared with and not very important to get both, you know, both, um, caregivers on the same page.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:01)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if our kids use Androids or other non-Apple computers, will it work with those

Karl Stillner: (17:11)

Currently they can. Um, there are certain parts of our, of our service that work on Android, but, um, we will plan on launching an Android dedicated application in probably early 2026. And so that'll make a much broader suite of services available to those customers. And so it's something that's on our roadmap, but as a small company, we're trying to focus on, um, like I said, where the market is in the US and, and then expand it of course as well down the road.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:38)

Sure. Sure. So I have to, I have to ask the big question about school devices. Sure. So are you guys able to monitor anything at school or

Karl Stillner: (17:51)

We're able to monitor Apple specific devices? So if your child has a Apple issued or a school issued iPad mm. Then we can monitor that. Mm-hmm . Um, we do not monitor Chromebooks or PCs currently,

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:04)

Which is tricky 'cause I think. Yeah. Okay. So if teachers or others who work within the realm of, you know, child, child wellness, if you will, if they are someone who are really interested in subscribing to Bright Canary, but they're at a point in their lives where they feel like they really can't take on one more subscription service, do you have any recommendations for that?

Karl Stillner: (18:30)

Yeah, no, thanks for asking that. Hillary. Um, we're a mission-based company and since day one we have offered teachers, mental health professionals and anyone who can't afford a scholarship, free subscriptions to our application. Um, it's on the honor system. We ask people, just write us an email and explain if they're a teacher where they teach or if they're, um, mental health professional where they practice, and then we give them a free subscription for a year to the service. And so we feel like that's very much part of, of our culture and the ethos of what we're trying to create here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:01)

Wonderful. There are so many concerns surrounding AI mm-hmm . As someone who is living in the tech development world, what do you think this kind of goes into that teaching aspect and non-fear-based teaching? You know, we always, healthy screen habits, we always try come from a place of hope and help. Right. Okay. . But what are some of the most important messages you think we could give our kids surrounding the use of AI moving forward? When we're grappling with understanding what it even is? Like my, my, like I've referred to myself as an analog brain. I mean, I, I have a hard time even like figuring out what's going on, but mm-hmm . I don't want to send fear-based negative messaging to my kids, but I do want it to be very realistic. So do you have any ideas?

Karl Stillner: (20:01)

Well, I mean, I think there's a, a few things that are important to teach the kids about when it comes to ai. I mean, first understanding that these tools are imperfect and they're getting better all the time. They'll be imperfect for a long period of time in the future. And, you know, they can produce inaccurate, um, misleading content, right? Mm-hmm . And so I think that's a really important thing to teach kids so they don't think it's some kind of gospel, which is, I've even noticed with my kids, they, oh, well, AI said it's this, it must be true. And I think that's really dangerous to assume that everything it's, it's spinning out is always accurate 'cause it's not. Yeah. And so that's a really important, um, fundamental, I think learning for kids. I also think that parents need to understand that kids and adolescents are super sensitive and vulnerable to attachments, to tools that, you know, mimic human behavior, right?

Karl Stillner: (20:54)

Mm-hmm . And so this notion of having an AI bot that's your friend, um, while that may seem really appealing to a kid who is going through puberty, and there may be some value there, I think guarding against an unhealthy attachment where they're depending on it and it's replacing, uh, human to human interaction, I think is really important to keep an eye out for as well, uh, because that's coming down the pike very soon. It's not just kids, of course, adults as well, but adults should be a little better equipped to handle that and understand the context. Then the child who doesn't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex is Of course.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:29)

Yeah. That being said, I mean, we're hearing all the time about people who are developing relationships with Right. With bots. Right. And, um, yeah. So I agree with you, my, my my concern, and I'm sure I've said it before on here, but is we know that, you know, first, first the attention economy was hacked mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And I feel like that was, you know, a, a huge thing. And the low hanging fruit on that has been stripped at healthy screen habits and other providers of people who are trying to provide help with parenting in our digital world, digital wellness, we used to kind of go across the, the spectrum of neurotransmitters and recognize, say like the attention economy was based upon dopamine, right. And we'd say to insulate your child against this dopamine drip, like, really lean into the other ones, the connection, the oxytocin, the serotonin, you know, those, those others, the endorphins, like really lean into that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Karl Stillner: (22:34)

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:35)

My concern is that with ai, what is being breached mm-hmm . Is now we're going after the other neurotransmitters. Mm. So, and it no longer the attention economy Right. Is stripped. Now we're going after the attachment economy. Mm-hmm.

Karl Stillner: (22:52)

Mm-hmm . That's really interesting. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:54)

Yeah,

Karl Stillner: (22:55)

I think, I think you're spot on. I think you're right. It's, it's, um, broadening.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:00)

Yeah. But it's like you said, like you referenced earlier with, um, those things that make us most human mm-hmm . Or the things that end up being very important mm-hmm . And I can't ignore the seduction of the chat bot that tells you how smart you are all the time. Right. I mean, even in trying to meal plan where I'm like, I'm like, I have a bunch of leftover, you know, what, what to do with leftover grilled chicken, you know, and it'll gimme like four recipes. And then I say, okay. Like, yeah, show me the curry chicken recipe, and it'll be like, great choice , you know? Right. And, you know, for someone who's used to cooking meals that you know, may or may not get lukewarm response, I'm like, yes, that is a great choice. And it's healthy too. .

Karl Stillner: (23:56)

Right. Well, and you're constantly getting positive feedback from ai. It makes, um, real world human interactions even more challenging because it's That's great. It's even more, um, it stands even more stark contrast because there's pushback, there's all the various emotions that exist and, you know, I think the risk is that people say, oh, I can't deal with that. And this resides solely in the AI world because it's even more uncomfortable than it used to be.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:25)

Right.

Karl Stillner: (24:26)

That's a concern.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:27)

Yeah. AI creates this frictionless environment mm-hmm . And unfortunately Yeah, friction creates heat, but heat, you know, as it turns out, that's where growth occurs as well. Right?

Karl Stillner: (24:38)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:39)

Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Karl for his healthy screen habit.

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HSH Workbook

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Hillary Wilkinson: (26:19)

I'm speaking with Karl Stiller, co-founder of Bright Canary and Karl, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Karl Stillner: (26:40)

Well, one thing we have done, uh, for four years or so now is we have set up our wifi router. Uh, so it's attached to a timer. You can get 'em on Amazon for a few bucks, and it basically turns off the wifi router every night at a prescribed time. I think it's currently at nine 30, and it turns it back on at, I think six or six 30 in the morning. And we use that as a way to, um, kind of switch off all the devices in the house that are dependent on wifi, of course. And so even if the kid is one of our kids is figured out a way to get one of their iPads, they still aren't gonna have internet access. And so it's really kind of fail safe in many ways. Now, if your kid has cellular connection, it's not as fail safe, of course, there are ways you can actually get around that.

Karl Stillner: (27:25)

Um, you can set up your device, um, to turn off, um, cellular at a certain time each day as well. And so, um, you can do that through shortcuts. Um, there's a whole Reddit form about this, but, um, short of that, turning off the wifi in a house really seems to be a preventative action for, um, using devices when they probably shouldn't be using 'em and letting kids focus on sleep, which is, I think a really important thing that we haven't discussed yet. And I'm sure you've talked about ad nauseum and many other podcasts because it's so relevant. And that is that, you know, kids are, uh, their sleep is being replaced by digital use. And I think that is, uh, one of, one of the things that cannot be overstated in terms of its impact on kids developing brains.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:07)

I could not agree more. And I, and I love the, um, the use of this, uh, kind of outside out, you know, we talk about inner walls and outer walls of protection, and so that was kind of like an outer wall of protection mm-hmm . That just shows, goes into place at a certain time. But recognizing that it's also important to talk to your kids about why we're doing this. Right. You know? That's right. And that's where you get the biggest buy-in. And

Karl Stillner: (28:35)

That's something that Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's something I think is really important on all this to have dialogue with your kids about, and we advocate for that with BrightCanary is parents sit down and explain why they're using services like Bright Canary as a condition of using a device and have an open and transparent dialogue. And I think most parents would be surprised how receptive their kids are if they're ex if it's explained to them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:57)

I completely agree. It's the same going back to the driving analogy. Yeah. We teach our kids the rules of the road and we explain why. Like, you know, when you're going to make a left hand turn, don't turn your wheel all the way to the left. 'cause if you get hit's gonna drive you this way. You know, I mean, it's, it's just like that. So you guys are, uh, I would never wanna call anybody the DMV , but, but you're far more interesting than the DMV.

Karl Stillner: (29:29)

Thank you . I appreciate that. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:33)

And, and now for a compliment, you've never received .

Karl Stillner: (29:35)

Yeah, that's right. That's a first.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:38)

Okay. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to the Bright Canary website by visiting the show notes for this episode. And you do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button to find this episode. Karl, thank you so much for being here, for being a super dad who saw a problem, solve the problem, and is letting others benefit from it.

Karl Stillner: (30:04)

Thanks, Hillary. I appreciate everything you guys are doing for raising awareness with parents as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:11)

For more information, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Healthy Screen Habits. Make sure to visit our website, healthyscreenhabits.org, where you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. It's free, it's fun, and you get a healthy new screen habit each week. While you're at it, if you found value in this show, we'd appreciate you giving us a quick rating. It really does help other people find us and spread the word of healthy screen habits. Or if you'd simply like to tell a friend, we'd love that too. I so appreciate you spending your time with me this week, and I look forward to learning more healthy habits together.

S14 Episode 8: Boys, Videogames, & Self Control //Ian McCready

Wed, 22 Oct 2025 00:28:25 GMT

"So much of the trade-off we make for video games and screen timing in general is the short-term enjoyment,.....at the expense of the long-term (fulfillment)"

~ Ian McCready

Ian McCready was once a 12-hour-a-day gamer; he knows firsthand how easy it is to get lost in technology. As a dad of two, he now helps youth and adults reclaim focus and build healthier digital habits.

In this episode, we dive into the addictive components of video games and the potential consequences of spending too much time gaming. We also take a look at Ian’s program called SelfCtrl and the steps it uses to help people regain agency in their lives.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://selfctrl.com/

Instagram:

@buildselfctrl

Show Transcript

Hillar y Wilkinson: (00:00)

Once a 12-hour-a-day gamer, my guest today knows firsthand how easy it is to get lost in technology. As a dad of two, he now helps youth and adults reclaim focus and build healthier digital habits. We're gonna learn how he combines powerful storytelling and teaching developed with certified addiction specialists, doctors and marriage and family therapists, as well as uses compelling data and an action plan designed to change people's approach to technology. We have many, many parents who come to us with concerns about video game overuse, and I cannot wait to learn more from someone who has lived it. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Ian McCrady.

Ian McCready: (01:19)

Thank you, Hilary. Glad to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:22)

Excellent. So, Ian, how did you get to the place you are now? Like, what, what's your story of origin? What started you with gaming?

Ian McCready: (01:32)

Well, I'd have to take you back to the first video game console that I got. It was, uh, a Sony PlayStation. I remember it very clearly in the Christmas of 1999 and the same year for Christmas. My best friend down the street, Owen, got a Nintendo 64. Oh. So between the two of us, we had the, the best you could have, I have so many fond memories of playing video games growing up, and I want all of your listeners and parents to know that, because it's, I, I'm not here to say that we should never let our kids ever play video games because they're the most dangerous thing ever. We need healthy screen habits around them. So, as I continued on into middle school and high school, and even into college, if you would've asked me, Ian, what is your dream job?

Ian McCready: (02:28)

What do you want to do? I would've told you I wanna make video games. And specifically I wanted to make video games and work for a company called Blizzard Entertainment down in Irvine, California, close to where I grew up, where they made our, basically my favorite games. They made some of the top games. And for those who aren't familiar with it, it's essentially one of the largest video gaming companies in the world. They got acquired by Microsoft only a few years ago. Uh, they own the Candy Crush series. They own the Call of Duty series. They own a lot of the top games that you would've heard of, but they also made a game called World of Warcraft.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:05)

And so, just for some background, all of those games that you have listed tend to be top on the list of dopamine producers, , which Yeah. Which, which

Ian McCready: (03:19)

We'll call them engaging, some people might call them addictive, uh, but they are, um, yes, they're employing all the, the tricks in the toolbox to essentially keep people on them and continue to play them. And it worked. And I feel like my, my generation was in kind of the Guinea pig phase mm-hmm . Of what a lot of modern video game tactics employ today. Um, they used to call World of Warcraft, world of war crack mm-hmm . Um, as a kind of crude analogy to the, the drug, uh, based on just how many people it hooked out of the number of people who played it. Like you had a lot higher chance getting hooked to that game than you did playing some of the other games that most kids were playing at the time. And I started playing it freshman year, and I feel like I had a pretty healthy, uh, approach to games in high school.

Ian McCready: (04:14)

My parents didn't have a ton of rules for me. Once I, when I continued to do well in school, I got good grades and I didn't get in trouble. And so those were the two markers that I think most of us as parents are like, Hey, do I need to intervene? Well, they're not getting in trouble at school and they're getting good grades, I guess I don't need to intervene. Uh, so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't getting in trouble. I wasn't doing anything they didn't want me to do. My older brother and sister did that for me. They got in trouble, and I learned from it, and I was like, all right. I followed the rules. Um, but I didn't really build any self-control around video games for myself. And when I went off to college, I got completely hooked into World of Warcraft, and I was playing 12 to 14 hours a day, like you mentioned in the intro.

Ian McCready: (04:58)

And fortunately in that experience, I was able to get out of that. Like, I recognized how dangerous it was, and family and friends did intervene. I still remember conversations with my sister and my mom saying like, Hey, you're playing that game a lot. Are you okay? I'm like, I, I'm fine. And then I would go home and Google video game addiction because I'm like, am I fine? Is this okay? Um, and I was turning down, hanging out with my friends on a Friday night. And fortunately I quit that game, but it took me kind of missing out on a big item that I was supposed to get and wanted. And it just, it took actually a pretty negative impact for me to actually walk away from it. Mm-hmm . And recognize how much of my time I had spent. Now in retrospect, wasting mm-hmm . And I would argue for a long time, video games were not a waste of time.

Ian McCready: (05:48)

I enjoyed them. I had fun. And as your kids play video games, they're not gonna view it as a waste of time. They are enjoying them, they're having fun. And kids need to realize and get to a point where they themselves understand what opportunity cost means, like what, what they could be doing instead. Because at a certain point, and I have known the guys in their late twenties, early thirties who hit depression at that stage of life because their friends are getting married, their friends are buying houses, they progressed in their careers, they've done things and invested in themselves and maybe played video games in a more balanced, healthy way. Or, or maybe they've kind of stopped playing them all together, but they're still playing and they're, they haven't cashed in on essentially some of the things that they've done. Yeah. I quit World of Warcraft.

Ian McCready: (06:36)

I still continued gaming. It caused problems for me in my career, in my marriage, and finally in my parenting, when my daughter was born and I, uh, went to a retreat and speaker was talking about priorities, and I was like, I don't have any problem with priorities. Um, everyone usually says the same things, right? They say like, family or faith, if they have faith at the top, like family, friends, work, fitness, then way down here like everything else, right? Mm-hmm . Scrolling, watching YouTube, Netflix playing video games. And I recognized that as fun as video games were for me, I wanted to play them all the time. And that wasn't, I recognized that that was not healthy. Like, if I want to play video games instead of hanging out with my wife who I love, uh, what is that doing to my brain? Like, why is that the case?

Ian McCready: (07:28)

Because I know it's only a matter of time before I regret that, right? Because I know it, like, in the short term, I want that, but I know in the long term, that's not what I want. That's not what I as a human want. And I think that's so much of the trade off we make for video games and screen timing in general, is the short term enjoyment, the dopamine that we get from it at the expense of the long term. Mm-hmm. And so I made a decision there. I'm gonna quit all video games. And so self-control was born outta that. So that's how we got started. Hillary. It's, uh, it was me walking away from something, a problem in my own life and recognizing everybody needs help

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:39)

With this. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, the, the thing about your story that sticks out to me is that you have a wife. I mean, many of the young men who we talk to have, have, um, really virtually isolated themselves. Yes. And we know, we know about the loneliness epidemic. I mean, former surgeon general, Dr. Murphy, you know, wrote a whole paper on it. We know the social anxiety that so many kids and young adults are experiencing. And many parents will come to us and tell us that the only place that they see their child experiencing happiness Yeah. Is online or that I can't pull him off of the games. And I'm, I'm using a gendered pronoun because it, it does typically, um, trend towards boys struggling with video games. Girls, uh, typically struggle with social media, but they, they tell us we can't pull him offline because that's where his friends are.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:48)

And I've also talked to young adults who truly value their friend groups, and they have very real relationships that have been made via, or i, I don't know whether I, it's so, it feels weird to say relationships, but they have very real support groups made via online gaming. Yeah. And so I'm just, you know, I feel like I'm, you know, I'm the healthy screen habits lady. I'm definitely in your camp, but I wanna give voice to you. What advice do you have? I'm trying to learn from you mm-hmm . For parents who are fearing for, you know, ripping that, that connection away from their kid or, or even their mental health if they pull 'em offline.

Ian McCready: (11:33)

Yeah. Uh, it's not easy. I'm gonna lead with that, and I can't give a blanket statement that is gonna work for all situations. So I'm just gonna caveat with that upfront. I think an analogy to any other problem is the best way to try to understand it. Because if your child was getting extremely obsessed over a specific topic, right? And it, it's a little hard to understand with sports, but people do get obsessed with sports and they say like, Hey, this is me. I am going to go professional in this sport.

Ian McCready: (13:34)

And it's all they think about, all they focus on. Now, we generally are like, great, there's a career in that. You're getting exercise, you have community there. Um, but we also know the problem that comes from people who put their identity in something like that. And they put all their eggs in one basket, for lack of a better term. With video games, I do see the risks outweigh the benefits of letting them go, essentially doing what you think is right and in their best interest in the long term for what you know, and just your gut feeling as a parent isn't working. And so I would recommend essentially making sure you don't ignore the warning signs and the risk that comes with, we, we look at, there's a two to 3% addiction risk, and some studies show it's up to seven to 8% for adolescents of getting addicted to video games.

Ian McCready: (14:50)

You can't ignore that as a risk in your child's life. And kids do need some adversity in their life, and they do need to build the social skills that come from in-person real life interactions. And adolescence is the time to do that. It's the hardest time to do that, it feels like. But it needs to happen then, because the habit pathways that form in the brain during adolescence, they don't cement, but they harden into plastic Yeah. At that point of their life. And it will be more difficult for them if they ignore everybody else and are only playing video games during the adolescent years for them to make positive, real and in-person relationships during their twenties. And I'm working with the kids in their twenties who unfortunately had the bad set of cards to, is be isolated during the pandemic. Now they're in their twenties and they are struggling, so mm-hmm . It's not easy. And I'm not saying you need to pull 'em back completely, but you don't need to give them full range and give into whatever they think is appropriate that is healthy for them, or what their friends have access to when it comes to how much video game time they get. They need to learn what healthy boundaries look like.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:02)

Okay. When we come back, we're gonna talk about some of those steps that Ian recommends taking to change habits around gaming.

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Ad Break : Self-Ctrl information

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I'm speaking with Ian McCready, the founder of Self-Control, a nonprofit helping people redeem time from technology for doing good instead, and Ian, I know you have a series of steps towards attaining self-control, which honestly kind of flies in the face of what we've heard from so many social scientists that say, due to persuasive design, the lack of prefrontal cortex development that, you know, doesn't gonna, isn't gonna mature until their mid twenties, addictive features they like. I mean, they're, the argument is, is that relying upon self-control is asking the impossible. And this is part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you, because I, I also recognize that we cannot wait until our kids are in their mid twenties when that prefrontal cortex matures to start teaching these healthy screen habits. I wonder if you could share with us what things or strategies do you recommend families employ to help create balance in self-control around gaming, hopefully without sparking major conflict, because that's what we're balancing, right? It's very tricky mm-hmm .

Ian McCready: (17:54)

Yeah. Uh, not easy again, because it is, I think, flying in the face, not just of what, um, to your point, the neuroscience of when we're really able to make good decisions on our own. But the alternative is completely isolate. And you can't completely isolate your child once they turn 18. Um, I mean, I, I've talked to parents who did that, and the kids went metaphorically off the deep end with screen time or video games, um, when they got their, essentially their own independence or freedom. And whether that happens at 18 or 21, uh, or whatever it is, while they are in those adolescent years, like we talked about, of building those pathways in the brain, just because their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed, it is still the majority of the way developed. Most of that growth in the brain happened in zero to five.

Ian McCready: (18:45)

It is. And the essentially puberty period of 13 to 18 is a super important period. Uh, but that doesn't mean they can't learn anything. And some of the most meaningful conversations with my parents, some of the most meaningful things that were just cemented into yet, this is how this works and is in my best interest. I remember were from those time periods. Mm-hmm . So as difficult as that time period can be, it's also I think, one of the most important things for us to do as parents to make sure that's when we're really in the game. But what we share with people is essentially, uh, the first step is, you gotta understand how we get addicted to these things, because I got one right next to me. Like I, I usually always know where it is. And, uh, even though I try to keep my own screen time down to under 90 minutes per day, uh, I still, it is still an in, in integral part of my life.

Ian McCready: (19:41)

Like, can't, can't deny that. So I have to build the self-control for myself. And I talk to most times when I talk to parents, these seven steps are for you to apply. And if you think they work, then teach it to your kid, then, then model it for your kid. So we do have to understand how we get addicted. And, and dopamine is behind essentially substances like alcohol or drugs. It's the same thing that drives, uh, addicts to those substances. And to seek them out, even though they're not good for them in the medium to long term or even short term, they are gonna do it anyway because their brain gets such a spike from the enjoyment and, and what it does to their body that their brain says, give me more of that. And the brain is essentially pushing a child when they come home from school or they wake up on a summer day, their brain's gonna say like, what are we gonna do today?

Ian McCready: (20:32)

Let's have fun. And dopamine is gonna release and it's gonna motivate the child's behavior towards those activities. It's Hartford, uh, Harvard, Stanford research, neuroscience, like this has been proven time and time again that dopamine drives our behavior. So the first thing, the second step we gotta do as parents is apply that to ourselves. Identify where, and the, I mean, the most common thing I hear from kids is, my mom's worse than I am. My dad's worse than I am you need to make the same decisions about how to be healthy with your own device and your own screens and teach those to your kids. Like this is your chance to do that and set a trajectory for the rest of their lives about how they view what healthy screen time looks like.

Ian McCready: (22:06)

And then as a parent, you need to create an environment for success that is in alignment with those principles. So that does mean you do need some rules, especially when the kids are under the age of 12. Um, they need rules. They need to understand the boundaries. They're gonna push those boundaries. They're gonna push on screen time 'cause they're getting that dopamine that makes them want it. Um, setting up those rules. And then what, what we share is kinda depending on the maturity of your kid, age 13 to 18 is increasing levels of responsibility. And this is a concept taken from Jonathan Haidts book, the Anxious Generation. But it's kind of this idea of like a ladder, like as the kid learns more is responsible with one thing, you give 'em some more responsibility. If they're responsible with the rules that you put on their, their phone, you give them more responsibility and see if they're self-controlled with that.

Ian McCready: (22:53)

If they push the boundaries, you put, uh, essentially penalties in place. And if they want to continue to learn, they will. Now, some people are continually disappointed in their kids' ability to do that. And that's where I do think you need to continue to emphasize the why of why you're doing this, why you have these boundaries in place. And that does start with educating your own child on how screens can be addictive and what the dangers are, just like you would with alcohol or any other topic that is dangerous and you recognize can be dangerous for them. So with that, after, when you're creating an environment for success, you gotta have visibility. So you do need to make sure you have access to your router. And I know, um, you all hear it at the healthy screen time habits that you guys do. I, I also endorse, uh, bark and Gab and some other products that I have been proven to be designed for parents and help parents gain visibility. But that visibility is just so you can see when your kids are behaving and when they aren't and expect them to fail. Expect with how difficult and how addicting and how much of their culture and their peers and their friends are pushing them to spend more and more time online. They are going to fail and not be ready to blow up on 'em when they do, but be ready to have those crucial, meaningful, impactful conversations with them when they do.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:22)

And it's, it's similar to when your child is learning to walk. You don't expect a crawler to stand up on two feet and start running hurdles, you know? And so it's, it's very analogous that teen time and toddler time are very analogous, both in the ways that the brain is super plastic, super lots of neurons firing, wiring, all of this stuff and the development that's occurring. So I I I really embrace what you're saying about that. Recognize that, you know, what we're, what we're calling failure is actually just a stumbling block forward. Absolutely. It's all forward movement, but we don't, we just need to recognize and not, um, have so much of our own ego invested in when kids do stumble that we're taking it personally. Right? Yeah. And we just go, oh, yep. So this happened. Well, what's the next co next course of action?

Ian McCready: (25:27)

Yeah. And just to encourage all your listeners in that, I have talked to a lot of extremely engaged parents, and I don't remember one off the top of my head who didn't have a story about, yeah, we had to change the rules when our kids did this. And like, it's every single one of them, every single kid pushed up against the boundaries at some point. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:50)

That's called growth .

Ian McCready: (25:52)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:54)

So, okay. So I, you had said there would be seven steps. I think I'm at five 'cause I've got, number one is dopamine awareness. Yes. I've got two is identifying problematic behaviors for yourself. I've been taking notes. See. Oh, thank you. Um, three, creating the environment for success. Four, increasing levels of responsibility through like chores and work. Mm-hmm . Five, educating how screens can be addictive. Am I, am I up with you? Am I catching up with you or

Ian McCready: (26:26)

Am I Yeah, absolutely. We are on step five and I usually talk through kind of step four. Step five is you need to set up the visibility in your home to understand how the internet's being used, but only for the purpose of being ready for those crucial conversations.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:41)

Sure.

Ian McCready: (26:41)

Because you can't have the conversations if you don't know that your kid is breaking the rules. Right. Um, so that leads into essentially just a reminder of the goal of parenting. We are conditioned, especially I believe, in American society to raise kids who get good grades and don't get in trouble, just like I mentioned, uh, my, my upbringing. And that is the marker of success or whatever college our kids get into. And I don't believe that's the case that any of us actually really believe that we want a kid with strong character. We want them to be kind, we want them to be, uh, joyful. We want them to be able to be resilient, whatever set of character qualities you are tried to, when your baby was born, you're like, this is the child we're gonna create. But at some point, academics, sports, other markers of success in the world kind of can take over.

Ian McCready: (27:34)

And I just wanna remind us as parents, I think the point of those, these conversations around screen time need to be centered, not just around, well, it's getting in the way of your homework, it's getting in the way of this, well, it's causing this problem. You're, you're, you're blowing up at me. It's what type of person do you want to be? Mm-hmm . Like, I need to send you off into the world. You gotta be able to make these decisions on your own. And it's getting whatever I work with an actual, like a teen or even a 21-year-old or older still at home child, um, I have to get them to take agency over their own lives. And that's the goal is they build the self-control themselves before they leave your house. Otherwise they'll be like me where I didn't have a problem in mom and dad's house, but two years into college I was in trouble mm-hmm .

Ian McCready: (28:20)

Because I just, I didn't even know what the dangers were. And I don't blame my parents. They didn't know the dangers around video games at that point. They didn't understand that a, a video game that came out the last year I was in high school was gonna be so addictive when I started in college. Like, I, I don't blame them. So I do just, if all of your listeners, your parents could just take a deep breath, like just forgive yourself for whatever you think were past failings. Like, you gotta stay in the game. You gotta stay in the game on behalf of your child and don't beat yourself up about, well, we gave him a tablet too early, it's all ruined. We're we, we we can't recover. Yes, you can. And the last step I do think is just remembering that it's going to be hard to expect resistance even from your in-laws or your preschool or like where you take your kid to school or your kid's school itself.

Ian McCready: (29:12)

Like my kid is in a summer camp and during summer camp they had essentially screen time, time where she got to play Minecraft. And I'm like, she never, she doesn't play Minecraft at home. Like, and so we're talking through that. I'm, I'm okay with it and we're gonna talk through it and understand, but I recognize, you know what, I'm gonna play Minecraft with her at our house so we can walk through and she can understand how she's playing the game and work through that in my own home. There's an 85 year long Harvard study that measures essentially year over year what's keeping people alive longer and what's making them happier. And for 85 years running, it's been connections. Mm-hmm . It's been people, nobody gets to their deathbed and say, you know what? I had a pretty awesome rank in that video game, or that company, or I hit this dollar amount in my bank account. They talk about people always, we have to remind ourself of the value of people and screens have nothing in their design that will point us to that. They'll give us facades of it, they'll give us some connection. But I haven't found any study or anything that has reinforced that in-person activity isn't more valuable than online activity. It's not that online activity is invaluable and has no redeemable qualities. In certain circumstances it does, but we can't ignore those in-person social connections and making sure our children are building that skillset.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:19)

That's a perfect place to, I'm sorry, but take a short break. , I feel like I just want people to sit and think about that. And when we come back, I'm gonna ask Ian for his healthy screen habit.

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HSH Presentations - school

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I a m speaking with Ian McCready, founder of Self-Contrl, Ian, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home, preferably right away. Okay. Yeah. What is yours?

Ian McCready: (33:14)

I implemented this for my own life and the number of people at the talks that I give or whenever I, I share information on this that have implemented this and not other habits, and I'm okay with that. This has been the one that I've gotten feedback that has been most implemented, and it's the, the phone cannot charge by my bed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:34)

Mm-hmm .

Ian McCready: (33:35)

That has various, you know, uh, spiderwebs of, well, what other, what other habits does that lead to? But for me, the charger is in the kitchen and, uh, my wife has picked up this habit as well. Our phones charge next to each other when our kids, uh, get phones, they will charge right there. That is where they're gonna charge. And there will be nothing that gets that phone in bed with me when it's time for me to wind down and fall asleep. And what that does, like the, the point of that is sleep.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:06)

Mm-hmm

Ian McCready: (34:07)

. And Hillary, I had stomach problems for most of my life for like two decades. I just had stomach problems and I thought I just had, like, that was just, I had a bad intestinal fortitude and I, I, I just had problems. When I quit video games and put the phone over there and really started thinking about how I was using technology, the stomach problems went away and I can very clearly attribute it to I got the rest that I needed. Like we, I believe are in a sleep epidemic. And if you look at what screen time is actually robbing kids of the most, and you can look at, there's articles that are trying to make this case that the, um, essentially NAEP scores or academic scores are continuing to go down since 2019. And they, I mean, there's a lot of conjecture, whatever it is, but anecdotally from the kids that I've talked to and the parents sleep is what's getting robbed by screen time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:06)

Uhhuh, ,

Ian McCready: (35:07)

It's so easy to give a little bit weight of time to that. So that's my healthy screen time habit to protect my sleep. The phone does not come in with me to bed and it charges in the kitchen.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:18)

Excellent. Yes, we have five core healthy screen habits and giving your phone a curfew and and charging it outside of your bedroom. No technology in the bedroom is, um, those are two of our top five. I love it. We actually, and, uh, recognizing that, um, I have young adults and teenagers at my house. Um, we have actually implemented not charging it in the kitchen, but we recommend charging it in the primary bathroom. And that is because we have many, many very resourceful, creative thinking teens who will go and at 2:00 AM you're finding them in the kitchen. And it's not for snacks. So that's by putting it in the primary bathroom. Or even some people have big fancy houses with walk-in closets that have charging. They can set up a charging station in their Sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:19)

In their closet. I do not have one of those, but I hear they exist . And, um, yeah. So that's, but that just underlines everything that you say and I could not agree with you more. And, um, thank you so much for being here today. As always, for anybody listening can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to the Selfctrl website by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. And again, like I said, Ian, thank you for being here today for helping people everywhere gain control of their online lives.

Ian McCready: (37:01)

Thank you for having me, Hillary. It's my pleasure.

S14 Episode 7: Appstinence - A New GenZ Trend? // Gabriela Nguyen

Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:00:00 GMT

"The 5 D Method:

Decrease

Deactivate (accounts of 30 days)

Delete

Downgrade Device

Depart"

Gabriela Ngyuen is a Gen Z founder of Appstinence, a student organization of the Harvard Graduate School of Education for people, largely young people, who want to opt out of the attention economy.

We talk about social media abstinence and “cell-ibacy” that is being embraced by Gen Zers in this episode.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://appstinence.org/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

My guest today is the Gen Z founder of Appstinence, a student organization of the Harvard Graduate School of Education for people, largely young people who want to opt out of the attention economy. So the attention economy, for anyone not familiar with that term, is an economic concept that treats human attention as a valuable and limited resource. Digital platforms using persuasive design vie for attention to keep users engaged. And this engagement then gets monetized through advertising, data collection and other things like in-app purchases. So members of Appstinence refrain from using social media and instead rely on calling and texting. Some also practice cell-ibacy that's spelled with two L's. So, or the practice of not having a smartphone. I'm really excited to get this Gen Z perspective and I'm so grateful to Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Gabriela Nguyen

Gabriela Nguyen: (01:26)

Hi Hillary. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:30)

Yes. And I have to, um, I have to just let listeners know Gabriela is squeezing this in as she's moving out of her dorm. She's graduating the same week. It's like, I'm, I feel like so much is going on right now for you, and I could not appreciate your time more so . So I also feel like your generation gets both a lot of shade thrown at you as well as a lot of sympathy for being kind of first run Guinea pigs of the great Tech experiment. And what role did tech play in your life growing up?

Gabriela Nguyen: (02:10)

I am was born in, in the two thousands, born and raised in the Silicon Valley in particular. Um, and I think that's a, an important detail because that was also the time that the Silicon Valley was large, was becoming the Silicon Valley. I mean, you have a lot of the platforms that, that I grew up using, Snapchat, Instagram, they were, they were being developed at the time. Facebook came out 2004. So that was really the hot ticket time to, to be in the Silicon Valley if you were there for those things. Um, but I think also in part because I grew up there at that time, um, it didn't feel like anything at all. And I think that is the first, one of the first, um, points when the problem starts to appear is, um, you only obviously know as know, can address the problem insofar as you know, that it exists.

Gabriela Nguyen: (02:56)

And I think growing up, I was a child at the time that Facebook came out, um, a toddler actually. Um, and so I, you don't realize that. You don't really notice, uh, I mean, for as a kid you don't notice many things, but at the time in particular, I didn't notice that big tech was becoming big. So, uh, for example, I mean, as far as I noticed it, it was Oh, okay. Well, all I really remember was, you know, there was new devices that were going to come out and there was just this general buzz that everybody had. Um, and probably

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:28)

Could probably, because it was like their dad's thing coming out.

Gabriela Nguyen: (03:32)

Yeah, exactly. No,

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:33)

Exactly. Their their mom's project that was hitting big.

Gabriela Nguyen: (03:36)

Yeah, it's like a friend's, oh, it was a friend's parent. Just got a new job at, um, Netflix. Oh, that's a streaming service and that kind of stuff. So it was, it didn't seem like anything, it seemed like I would've as if I grew up in a a like maybe a, a town where a lot of people were, you know, worked in a local factory or something. It was sort of like everyone was kind of employed in this one thing. Um, and it didn't, it wasn't, didn't seem like anything at the time. And I, that was the necessary precursor for the about 10 years that I would be chronically online. I was your, I would say your sort of textbook, chronically online , um, Gen Z Girl. I got an iPod touch around the age of nine, eight or nine. Um, and then I had my first smartphone when I was, well, it came out, it was the iPhone5S. I was 12, just about 12 at the time.

Gabriela Nguyen: (04:25)

Um, and then from there it was just the complete onslaught of all the different types of social media that teenagers still used today. But it was the, the nascent versions of them at the time. So it was okay. Instagram, Instagram pre-algorithm is, so the brown one, that's the one that I went through puberty on, uh, Uhhuh and so then and Snapchat as well. And then in my later teens is when, um, TikTok, uh, came out and was super, super popular. Then the pandemic hits, um, in my second semester of college and, you know, kind of obliterates my, a lot of my college time. And then, um, and then over time I kind of came to this conclusion of Appstinence, um, and which is where I am now. And, and the foundation of this, of this organization, which is this idea that walking away from the attention economy, I think there's a lot of this idea of like fighting over the digital space.

Gabriela Nguyen: (05:14)

But, but growing up in this Silicon Valley, I watched as a lot of, even the physical area in which I grew up was getting eaten up by these companies. And you realize that these, as you get older, and I look back on this time that these, there was no digital battleground. There's no battleground for me to reclaim. 'cause it was never made with my wellbeing in mind in the first place. There was nothing that I owned to be reclaimed. So if I walked away from them, it wasn't the sort of great sad resignation. It was just an an, it was admitting and being realistic that technologies that were made for your capture and made to hook you, especially from such a young age, are not something that I wanted to spend my time energy on and nor did I, I want to create as a norm, uh, perpetuate as a normal aspect of, of childhood, of adolescence, or even just in life in general.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:05)

You speak of your early life and technology as it kind of being, you know, the water in which you swam because it was the area you were raised in, but yet somehow you did come to this awareness and this realization that, um, you were getting hooked this like persuasive design was happening. Was there, was there a triggering moment for you? Or like, how, how did you come to figure that out, is what I'm asking? Yeah. Like what, how did that realization emerge?

Gabriela Nguyen: (06:45)

Yeah, so for me, I actually didn't have a sort of like huge blowout event that, that I think, uh, you'll hear about a lot, like on, on the news, like girls getting committed to, you know, psychiatric wards or diagnosed with eating disorders, things like that, that are very important to talk about. But that wasn't actually my personal experience. I didn't have a sort of a very extreme event. Um, for me, I, like, I really wanted to do well in school. It was like sort of a simple basic responsibility, um, commitment that a young person makes to their lives. Um, and very simply, I could not focus. It got to a point, it was, um, very early on in high school, um, that I, I realized that I just simply couldn't focus. And it started off with a very sort of innocent organic observation, which was I keep using my phone instead of doing homework.

Gabriela Nguyen: (07:27)

It didn't, there was no intention at the time, like I didn't know Digital Minimalism, the book hadn't come out at that point. Mm-hmm . No one was talking about as far as I knew, talking about this idea that's very like chic and vogue now. It's, no one was talking about this at the time. It was just that very organic, that kind of seed of like, all right, something is not quite right. Like some, I just can't stay away from my phone. It sort of had this feeling that had this kind of like force behind it. Um, and then for several years I tried to do that kind of balance thing. And this is at the time that TikTok is taking off , um, and Be Real comes out too. And there's all this kind of other ways that social media's being played with. And I tried that.

Gabriela Nguyen: (08:01)

I was like, well, what if I just tried to minimize the harms of social media and then maximize the good parts of it? Um, and I tried that for a long time until it got to the point that I realized that I have a human capacity and there is only so much willpower, so much, um, sort of reconfiguration of my daily routines that I could handle, but technology can infinitely improve. It was kind of in that sense, rigged from the very beginning. And when I, when I realized that, and I realized actually stepping away from that was not a, um, uh, I wasn't bending the knee to anybody, let's say. It was really saying like, no, actually, I, I do, you know, I do have a mortal, a mortal limitation, but that's what makes me a human being. And, and perhaps it was like at the time I'm a teenager, so I'm increasing my ability to have abstract, higher level thinking. Maybe it's been part of that as well. But yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:49)

We can, well, I mean, certainly you can say all of that thing as far as developmental, but I think, uh, you must have been a very mature teen to even have recognized that level of limitation. I think most adults struggle with it. So, you know, , it's,

Gabriela Nguyen: (09:04)

It definitely takes a public conversation like the one that we're, that, that has been going on, um, quite publicly for the last year, um, to be able to push people in that direction to make that consideration. I think, like what I tell my story and I don't have a huge blowout moment. I think that's a lot of people, I would say that's like kind of the middle part of the bell curve, right? So it's a lot of people who are like, well, I didn't, I wasn't chronically bullied online and I I'm not diagnosed with an eating disorder and I'm not all these other things, then I can just keep living this way. And I think for me, it took me a while to realize like, hey, I didn't actually need to be pushed to the extreme to realize that this wasn't worth my time and my effort.

Gabriela Nguyen: (09:39)

But it took me a long time to get to that conclusion because I think a lot of, for a lot of things in life, it's like, well, did I need to, you know, get some really troubling blood test results back to know I needed to shape up what I was eating? Right? It doesn't, I think there's a lot of other aspects of, of wellness and health that we wait until the last minute mm-hmm . And Digital technologies and our, our relationship with technology was moving also in that direction. Um, and now we've begun to course correct, but at the time, that really wasn't the thing to do, especially being where I was from. So, um, it really just took me having that really heightened like, level of stress of like, I really, it's two in the morning, I need to get this assignment done. It should have taken me 20, 30 minutes, but it's taken me hours already.

Gabriela Nguyen: (10:18)

And realizing just how unsustainable that was, just from a, a strategic thinking of like, okay, well if every assignment that is 30 minutes takes me four hours, then I can't. And I, there's only so many hours in the day, like, I can't do so many that the number of assignments I have, if it takes me that long because of this. It was very sort of that low kind of in some sense like kinda low level, I just need to get my homework done. This was not a grand like, kind of oh, perspective of like, oh, right, this needs to be some kind of greater life change I needed for personal development for self. No, no. This was like, I have a deadline, I have to get homework in and that's it. And then it started from there, and then that kind of sparked my individual journey.

Gabriela Nguyen: (10:53)

And along the way, um, a lot of things happened on the societal level. Um, Digital Minimalism, that kind of movement kind of kicked off. Um, I suppose like, um, you know, The Anxious Generation, the research on that to build that book started happening. And then it was obviously it was released last year. Um, and other kind of like, you know, uh, sense the sense that larger society was having, and I would say the Center for Humane Technology, their work started to, um, pick up quite a bit at that time, as, as I understand. Um, and so those societal factors, but I also was meeting people in my personal life and I was also going through transition at the time. I was, you know, graduated from preschool, I go off to college, um, and then the pandemic hits and there's so many different ways these kind of curve balls that are just being thrown.

Gabriela Nguyen: (11:33)

But looking back were these sort of necessary meaningful moments to reflect on, like, okay, how am I actually using technology or how's it using me rather, um, and then make, take the necessary steps instead of just coming to be in that perpetual state of pondering Oh yes. And then a utopian fantasy I could possibly, you know, not have social media not have, and actually like, oh wait, like I'm going to try this, it fail. And I have, there were like multiple times that I did the wrong thing and I was discouraged and I tried again and then, you know, and then now I have the five D method from

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:02)

That. Yes, yes.

Gabriela Nguyen: (12:04)

It was a struggle.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:05)

Yes. So before we get into that, can you explain like what, uh, I mean, I kind of, in the intro, I kind of teased apart what Appstinence is a little bit, but I don't know that I did, I don't know that it did it justice , can you, can you explain what is Appstinence?

Gabriela Nguyen: (12:23)

So appstinence at its core is, is a lifestyle where you, um, and it's like of targeted for, for young people, but very quickly it's becoming something that is applicable to every single generation, which is reflected in our membership, for example. Um, but appstinence is purposely refraining from the use of any voluntary sort of personal social media accounts or otherwise operating on any social media, and instead using direct line communication like calling, texting, video, calling people. Um, so it still uses technology to keep in touch with people, but it ops out of the sort of main part of that attention economy. So the infinite scroll, the auto play, the, all of that kind of stuff, the stories, other features that of, of persuasive design. Um, of course, are there ways to get like sort of compulsively use, you know, group text messaging? Yes, of course there is.

Gabriela Nguyen: (13:09)

Um, but it's this general idea of moving away from these main big players, let's say. So like Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, um, Reddit included as well mm-hmm . Um, and, you know, and ultimately from that point, use that as a necessary but insufficient sort of precursor to building a meaningful life, right? Because if you, um, if you just stop with the technology, you will, you, you're gonna kind of shortchange yourself if you, if you do yourself a disservice if you just stop there. But you do, you should start, I think starting with the technology is a really good place for most people, especially for young people today. Like what's your, uh, you know, what apps do you mostly go on? What do you use your smartphone for? What do you think social media is for? What do you use it for? And answer all of those kind of big questions we ask people at the beginning of the five D method.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:53)

Excellent. So when we come back, let's get into that five D method and, um, learn more about appstinence and helping people get off of social media.

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Ad Break - HSH Workbook

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Gabriela Nguyen, a Gen Zer who has founded abstinence, an organization that helps people opt out of social media. Gabriela, so we were talking prior to the break, and I do wanna get into the five D method, but, um, I kind of would like to ask, what, what do people find to be the greatest challenges in kind of stepping out of social media? I know, you know, in my life as a mom, so many schools, like school communications, club communications, all of that stuff comes through social media feeds. So, I mean, for example, I need, I found I needed to join Facebook once my kids hit middle school. 'cause I kept missing school concert information. Like my son played cello, we needed to, really needed to be there, um, or various like PTA requests stuff that I wanted to be involved with. But I, I did not particularly love social media from the get-go, and I was not on it, but I found that as more and more organizations have turned to social media, like I had to get on it. But, so I'm wondering, what do you find people have the biggest challenges with in stepping away from it?

Gabriela Nguyen: (15:43)

I would say that it varies, quite a bit person to person. But I think when I, we work with clients, for example, or, or, or just amongst our different, the members of different generations in our membership, it seems to differ quite a bit along sort of generational lines, I would say, um, with the older generations. So let's say like, I don't know, perhaps, um, maybe Gen X and above, um, a lot of it, it's sort of, um, things like kind of what you're saying, it's like dealing with logistical issues. So sort of like, but I need this thing for my kid. And, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, and I would say for the younger generation, it's perhaps a a little more abstract in the sense it's imagining what your life would be like without it just imagining that is already difficult from the very beginning.

Gabriela Nguyen: (16:26)

And that's a big, I think that's one of the big differences between Gen Z and other generations is that, is that even the oldest part of Gen Z would say, but really millennial and above have a point of reference where they have concrete memories in a concrete length of time in which they remember being a fully operational person, without social media and for many, like a smartphone or at all. And not having that point of reference is very difficult because you don't have that sort of, the wire frames, let's say, to then reimagine what your life could be without it. And so you're really learning two things. You're learning kind of the technical aspect of like, okay, what exactly are these technologies? How are they designed to provide capture? And the other one is also just imagining how, how your life could look, um, how life can be.

Gabriela Nguyen: (17:12)

Um, that those two things together are really what we try to work on with the, with the more generation. Um, but even for myself, it was only after going through this experience, my, my own journey, do I have that point of reference, but I didn't up until recent years. Um, and but that's something that, you know, once you make it quote unquote to the other side, it becomes, it's sort of like, hey, like you're waving at, you're waving at them from across the bridge and you wanna say like, Hey, come over here. Like, it's, it's nice. Yeah. And it's very calm and um, and that's, so I'd say those are the main things. But even within that, there's like things that people who are in there who are older than Gen Z will struggle with that Gen Z does, or you know, the reverse is true as well. I think there's so much variability.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:51)

So you have this method called your 5 D method. Can you take us through it?

Gabriela Nguyen: (17:59)

Yeah, sure. So the five D method is sort of a general high level, step-by-step program that a person who going from using, you know, having insane screen time going, using so much social media, just like basically existing on the internet as I did, um, can go from that to not having social media and highly recommended, um, also not using a smartphone as well, or at least say a traditional smartphone. Um, so there's five D's in this and the D's are interchangeable. Um, uh, which is a sort of a recent change that I've, I've implemented or made since I started meeting with more people. Um, but the first D is to decrease. And that's a general idea, like how do you actually decrease the amount of time you're spending and decrease the time, but also the stimulus you're getting, um, from these devices. So there's a myriad of ones, the main two things is the first one is actually changing the hardware of the technology you're using.

Gabriela Nguyen: (18:54)

So meaning like if you have a smartphone, it's a much easier thing to switch down to downgrading, to like a, a dumb phone, for example. Then try to keep a smartphone with all the bells and whistles and then constantly try to fight the erd like you maximizing your willpower in that respect. Um, but the other part of decrease outside of the technological changes, which could include, you know, sort of certain plugins and extensions and, um, reducing the number of, of devices at all that you use, um, is also increasing your participation in the real world and sort of doing a reverse displacement as we call it. So people talk about displacement in a sense of like, when I'm on, when I'm online for five hours a day on, you know, on Instagram for three hours and TikTok for two hours, it's displacing other things that I could do.

Gabriela Nguyen: (19:37)

But the reverse is also true. If you've ever like hung out with friends, you're like, oh gosh, it's seven 30 already. How did the time pass? We met at noon, right? The reverse is true, like how do you build such a meaningful life that it's not just you use it to escape social media, but you've made it obsolete? Because social media does serve a purpose in people's lives, but if you are having such an amazing day hanging out with your friends or doing some engaging, meaningful creative activity, it will displace the desire that you use to scroll on social media. That's sort of the reverse thing. The second step is to deactivate. So the whole thing about the five D method is actually getting people all the way to the point of abstinence. Um, and they can obviously get off the train at any point, but to get them to the, to abstinence.

Gabriela Nguyen: (20:14)

So the second one is to actually deactivate your account. So for the main like sort of players Instagram TikTok, as far as I know that perhaps they've changed it in recent, but, um, you can't immediately delete your account. Um, I believe only for one of those. You can, but otherwise you can deactivate it and then you have 30 days before it quote unquote deletes. So in those 30 days, you can always put in your login information, it'll reactivate the account as if you never left. Um, that 30 days also happens to match the recommendation of Dr. Anna Lemke, who wrote Dopamine Nation mm-hmm . Um, to actually reset the brain, uh, reward pathways is that 30 days as well. So I've modeled it after that. Um, so what you can do in those 30 days, you keep doing the decrease in that 30 days, but you've deactivated the account that you use the least.

Gabriela Nguyen: (20:56)

You might not notice it. You might be like, well, that account, I rarely ever look at it. But the idea is to slowly progress towards reducing the number of millions of places. Either it's devices or apps that are giving you that sort of a whack-a-mole. You don't wanna play whack-a-mole where you're just like, okay, well if I use, I, I don't use Netflix anymore, but I have HBO, but then I don't use HBO, then I have Disney plus, and like, you're just kind of being chased around. So actually just decrease. So it simplify. Um, and then after those 30 days, you actually is the third D is to delete. So after those 30 days, you're one that one account that you deactivated will delete and you keep going about your life ideal. In an ideal situation, you're so distracted by hanging out with your friends, engaging other things, you don't really notice that it's fine, you probably won't.

Gabriela Nguyen: (21:35)

Um, and then the fourth one is to downgrade, um, downgrading your phone largely, um, I hope one day that will be sort of dumb phone laptops. So right now, um, it's really to downgrade your, your smartphone to a dumb phone. There's, as you know, there's many different types out on the market mm-hmm . Um, even though overall the market relatively is, is is small, but um, I have a lot of hope in it, um, is to downgrade your phone. And that will really kind of push you, give you that extra step to push you into like, alright, I'm really committed to this lifestyle, which is another reason why the D's are interchangeable. You can also do this at the very beginning. I've also recommended, um, sort of for example, the Cat S 22, which is, um, a transition phone.

Gabriela Nguyen: (22:18)

Uh, so you can what's the, what's the, what's the type of the phone? It's called the Cat S 22. It's made by Cat Construction. It's a construction phone. It's, uh, for contractors? Yeah. Oh, okay. So it's, I it's a phone I used, it was my first, I guess like tradition phone, um mm-hmm . I, yeah, well I kinda switched around to different ones, but, so then, anyway, so downgrading is at four D and the last step is not, uh, uh, an action necessarily, but it's to depart. It's when you kind of feel like you've kind of arrived at that place, that sort of threshold that you pass and you feel that kind of distance between you and the digital world. And for me personally, um, it's now for example, how I know I, I reached that was, I have, for example, on my laptop, I have YouTube, uh, with an extension that removes all the recommendations, all the comments, all the shorts is just basically a video search engine.

Gabriela Nguyen: (23:05)

Um, but now when I see a regular YouTube page without any all the things plugged into it, I'm like, whoa. And I do not wanna look at it. It's so stimulating to me. And that's how I know that there's kind of a distance and I'm not kind of so sucked into it where I feel compelled. Um, and you also notice it when you go out and about. You see how many people are on their smartphones and how much, how often people pull them out when, when they're eating or sharing time with you or spending time with you. Um, that's how, you know, you kinda have these like little things that build over time. Um, and you've kind of arrived on the kind of other side. Um, but the thing about the five D method is that it's really necessary to take your time. There's no deadline.

Gabriela Nguyen: (23:40)

There's no rush. Um, I also totally realized I skipped o over the first, the reflection part at the beginning. 'cause I got so excited about talking about the Ds, there's a reflection part at the beginning. It's fairly brief, but, um, it's basically where you answer like, who's, who's worth keeping in touch with your, who you know of your family, of your friends, um, and be, take a very honest accounting of this. Not the people you would like in an ideal situation to keep in touch with the people. You don't hear from them a little bit. You're like, Hey, what's going on? Um, those people also, like, what are the realistic hobbies that you could, or realistic ways you can spend your time. It doesn't necessarily need to be a hobby, ne should be included in there, but realistic ways time could be spent in your life in general.

Gabriela Nguyen: (24:20)

So, and be realistic about it. So you could say like, okay, well in my dream version myself, I'm rock climbing three days a week, but you're suddenly rock climbing three days a week. And maybe not quite, not quite yet. That's maybe that's a little bit of at a later stage. Um, but realizing things like sort of, you know, going for more walks, reading more, and doesn't necessarily have to be a hobby either. It could just be, which was in my experience, just having more time to do what you were already doing. So for example, instead of having to listen to a lecture and do my laundry, I could just listen lecture, do laundry, like it, it's, it's a slower pace of living. Um, so that's the other one. And then, you know, sort of asking yourself what are the old, the last question would be, what are your sort of ultimate goals or what's the most important things to you?

Gabriela Nguyen: (25:00)

So we had a client, for example, who he said his was, his first was his faith, the second was his family. The third was, uh, physical fitness. And then the 5D method as I'm giving recommendations of how to use the 5D method, build those three, the whatever number of values or are things you prioritize into your life to displace the time you would've spent scrolling on the news or on social media or video games or whatever the, the media stimulus is. This is the general idea of what the 5 D method is. It's meant to be highly personalizable. You could be on the first D for a year, you could be on this is, and this is new to we're developing it live right now. Or some people go through it really fast actually and are pleasantly surprised with how, uh, easy this process can be. And others are like, this is actually way harder than I thought it was going to teach them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:47)

Yeah. I would think that that first part, that reflective part is really, um, you know, it's kind of like a personal inventory of values and time and all of those things of what you want to be invested in to live your, live your best life, so to speak. And so I would think that probably like the amount of effort and energy that gets spent on that first time is directly correlational to the success of following through with the five Ds, you know?

Gabriela Nguyen: (26:23)

Yeah, exactly. I think if you don't have the necessary reflection in the beginning, um, you're just jumping straight into the deep end. And I think that's, this is something especially true for, for Gen Z but for younger generation is if you don't have a point of reference, you need to answer those questions. 'cause at the same time, another thing I've, I've noticed is that well also when you're at the quote unquote the beginning of your life, there's a lot of these questions that you haven't asked. Sure. Sort of like, who it is that I care about, what is I care about? Sure. How do I wanna spend my time? What is time? All these questions, right? You kind of don't really, you haven't answered them explicitly. So it is can be uncomfortable to answer these questions, and it should be, I mean, to some extent, like it, it'll reveal certain truths about your life.

Gabriela Nguyen: (27:02)

Um, but the truth sets you free. And then, um, it'll, it'll, it's the necessary first step to, to go on a very what, what we, what Appstinence at our, in our coaching program really tries to make a meaningful journey for people as opposed to just sort of like, oh, I have to check this off my list. I have to kick this habit. It's like, Hey, I actually, it's so ingrained in your life once you remove it, you actually have a lot of opportunities for other things to not just maintain certain relationships, but to actively nurture some, to not just be able to focus more on, on the task at hand, but to understand the importance of focus, right? There's like this extra level of, of, of, um, gain that can be, can be had through this process that we're really trying to make even more robust in, in the 5D method for people to use.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:40)

For sure. For sure. And I also appreciate how abstinence is like healthy screen habits. It's not an anti-tech organization. I mean, we, our theory is we believe in the intentional use of technology to supplement our lives. Mm-hmm . So it sounds like that's very, very, uh, much baked into appstinence as well. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Gabriela Nguyen, for her healthy screen habit, and I'll just keep us going right through. Okay.

I am speaking with Gabriela Nguyen,, the founder of Abstinence, Gabriela, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice into their own homes. What's yours?

Gabriel a Nguyen: (28:37)

Mine is something that I wish I started doing quite a bit earlier compared, you know, and is relatively late, considering the other good habits that I've adopted in my life, really as it relates to technology. Um, but it's asking people to, to eat with me. Um, just saying like, Hey, do you wanna get lunch? Or not even, actually, I don't say go out and get lunch. I say, do you wanna just eat lunch together? Uhhuh . So it, so I think, and the way I phrase that question I've noticed is important because I mean, not everyone wants to necessarily eat out at 2:00 PM on a Wednesday, right? They might wanna just eat their packed lunch or whatever. We say, Hey, do you wanna just eat lunch together? Emphasize that it's really like, Hey, I, I'm asking you not to have someone to go buy food with me, but just to have someone to spend time with me while I eat.

Gabriela Nguyen: (29:18)

Um, and just doing that purposefully and, and having that be part of the way that I, uh, you know, in reflecting on how I've socialized in that day, it's like, did I eat meals with other people today? Um, because I think it's very common, um, to just, you know, watch TV while you eat or do other things, um, or distract yourself with technology otherwise. But when you're sitting with someone, I think there's also a little bit of that social pressure of the etiquette as well. You don't wanna be on your phone while you're engaging in a conversation, especially you invited that person to meet with you, right? There's like a kind of, there's a role of that sort of social pressure to, to, to a to a good end. Um, and I'm in a university setting right now, so it's, it's easier to do that.

Gabriela Nguyen: (29:53)

Um, but definitely when I'm home, um, like they living with my parents when they're away at work and stuff like that, it is obviously considerably more difficult. And so in that, in that, um, sense, when I don't have people around me to invite to eat, um, which I now actively seek them out, I will at the very least try to be in a space where there are other people around. So if I go to a cafe to do work, I'll try to eat my meal there. So at least there's like a, the chatter and kind of buzz of people around me, and I'm getting that stimulus from somewhere else other than sitting by, by myself and, and watching a video, which still happens sometimes. I mean, like, the truth of the matter is, um, it's not a perfect, like, you know, appstinence is not, the perfectionism is not going to serve anybody here. The

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:33)

Idea,

Gabriela Nguyen: (30:33)

Right? How do you bring people back into your life? And sometimes it just, you just have to ask no one, I mean, very few people, unless they're, you know, unless they're busy, will say like, I prefer to just eat my meal by myself. I think it's, I've never been told that in the many times I've asked people to eat. And, um, and yeah, just really, uh, you know, no one, there's a, there's a lot of people who, who would like to share a meal with you, but

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:55)

Yeah, and I mean, and you're touching on, you're touching on our other, you know, huge concern of the time, which is the loneliness epidemic. And I think that, I think that it's hard for us to break through those social walls of, 'cause I, I mean, even when you're, when you walk in to say a cafeteria or restaurant, whatever, you see somebody you know, but if they are on their phone, you don't wanna interrupt what they're doing, you know, so mm-hmm . I, I think you sitting there, device free and eating is an invitation, you know, it's for others. So I love that. Yeah. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to appstinence.org by by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Gabriela, thank you for being here today for giving us an amazing tool set to dial back our social media use and step away from attention economy as, as, you know, sought after. And I feel like we would, we would all benefit from doing that reflective component of what are, you know, what are the important parts of my life? And, um, just reclaiming our time and focus so that we can all live with intention.

Gabriela Nguyen: (32:28)

Thank you, Hillary, and, uh, for your commitment to this work. And for all the listeners who are, as you've told me, are, are loving moms who just want to do, do right by their children. Um, thank you for the time and, and the love, and I look forward to this movement, move ment gaining steam and, and all the, the things that we'll discover together.

S14 Episode 6: Lighthouse Parenting in a Tech World // Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg

Thu, 09 Oct 2025 01:29:13 GMT

"Perfect parents are intimidating. Not to mention they don't exist."

~Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg has focused his career on helping youth develop their own solutions to social problems and teaching adults how to serve them better. As a doctor of adolescent medicine at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, he sees every day the challenges facing today's youth and parents.

On this episode, we discuss the challenges of parenting in today’s tech-driven world, share wins, and cover everything in between.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

The Center for Parent and Teen Communication

https://parentandteen.com/

Amazon Link to book:
https://www.amazon.com/Lighthouse-Parenting-Raising-Guidance-Lifelong/dp/1610027191

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:16)

My guest today has focused his career on helping youth develop their own solutions to social problems and teaching adults how to better serve them. As a doctor of adolescent medicine at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, he sees every day the challenges facing today's youth and parents. He's also the author of many books published by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the latest of which is Lighthouse Parenting, Raising Your Child with Loving Guidance for a Lifelong Bond. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (01:35)

It's an absolute joy to be with you today. Hillary, thank you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:39)

Just so you know, he's given me permission to call him Ken. I don't want anybody to be under the illusion that I'm taking liberties with over familiarity here. So, that out the way, Ken, over the years, there have been so many terms thrown around when it comes to parenting styles. I mean, we've got helicopters and snowplows, we've got Tiger Moms, jellyfish, free range. All, all of these terms and techniques come from the same place. It's a parent who's trying to do their very best. And you are introducing a term that I think many people may not be familiar with, Lighthouse parenting. So, before we get into further discussion, let's just kind of break that apart. You have a really beautiful statement of commitment to lighthouse parenting at the start of your book. I didn't check with you beforehand. Do you have a copy of your book? Do you wanna read? Okay. , would you mind reading this statement so people can just kind of get a bead on the philosophy behind lighthouse parenting?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (02:48)

Absolutely. Hillary, thank you for asking. I choose to be a lighthouse parent. That's what you meant by commitment. This is a choice, a stable force on the shoreline from which my child can measure themself against. I'll send my signals in a way they will choose to trust. I'll look down at the rocks to be sure they don't crash against them. I'll look into the waves and trust, they'll learn to ride them, but I'm committed to prepare them to do so. Hillary, the next point might be the most important point in terms of this concept of a lifelong bond. I'll remain a source of light they can seek whenever they need a safe and secure return. And Hillary, before we dive in, I want to give good news to your listeners whose heads spin with the season every time there's a new parenting style. This is not a new parenting style, right?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (03:42)

I am a pediatrician. I run the Center for Parent and Teen Communication. What I put out there is information we know works. There is 60 years of research that tells us that it is the balancing act between loving our child and letting them know we love them, being responsive to their needs, honoring their development with the importance of also giving them boundaries and rules to follow. And high expectations. That it is this balancing act called balanced or authoritative parenting that we know creates the best academic outcomes. In other words, you do better in school, the best emotional outcomes, lower rates of depression and anxiety, the best behavioral outcomes, meaning less likely to get into trouble in a whole bunch of ways, ranging from substance use to romantic or sexual activity, to even, um, the safety around driving 60 years of research and common sense. This, you could ask your grandma what kids need, and

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (04:59)

She would've said to you, um, what kids need is to know that they're loved and to know that they're watched and that you're gonna guide them, but let them make some mistakes. That's what she would've told you. So, lighthouse parenting is anything but new. Many of the other, uh, strategies you talked about are put out by well-meaning parents, but they're not rooted in our culture. They haven't withstood the test of time and certainly have not been proven by research.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:43)

As you and I were talking a little bit before we started recording Healthy Screen Habits, really the, our primary focus is on family relational health, health. And I think one of the reasons that your book resonated so hard with us is your first chapter right out the gate is focused on family stability. And can you talk about that?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (06:11)

Yeah, I'm actually super proud of that because, um, every parenting book, every blog on parenting always has the last chapter or the last line. And it says, “Oh, and by the way, take care of yourself.” But let's listen to this commitment. A stable force on the shoreline from which my child can measure themselves against stability is about taking care of yourself first. It is about being the kind of person that your child can role model themselves with. But more than that, it's about being the kind of person that your child will come to in times of need. Not now, not tomorrow, but now, tomorrow, and in 30 years. And who do you go to? You don't go to a perfect parent. Perfect parents are intimidating. Not to mention they don't exist. Humans raise the best humans, Hillary the best humans. And when we show that the ground sometimes rock you beneath our feet, and we work really hard to maintain stability, that we take care of ourselves so we have the bandwidth and the room to take care of other people, that's where you start, not only because you deserve to take care of yourself, but also because it's really a great strategy for parenting.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (07:33)

You. You wanna be there, not just when things are going well. You want to be there when things are not. And kids don't come to you if they're worried about you. They come to you when they know you're okay, or will, when they add something to your plate, take the steps to become ok.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:50)

Mm. Okay. So a couple of things resonated there with me, which I know, um, families come in all shapes and sizes and we recognize that. And, but you're saying the, the family unit as a collective. Am I right or are you focusing on one parent? Are you focusing, when we're talking about family stability, what does that entail?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (08:19)

My life's work is about preparing adults to be the kind of people that children and adolescents deserve in their life. And it's about adults remaining deeply connected, available, showing up and showing what it means to be an adult. I do not define family. I have no right to define family, right? Mm-hmm . A family is a loving adult. Whether it's one person, two people, three people, an extended family, whether it's a chosen family, a foster family, I'm not going to define family. I am going to define the presence of a powerful adult.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:00)

Thank you. Thank you. I also, I just wanna circle back to what you pointed out was, um, that this loving, stable adult is not without mistakes and blunders. And I think this is such an interesting thing to explore when we know that more and more as AI enters the room, kids are going to AI chatbots to seek advice on things. So with the perception that these AI chatbots do have that perfection, so to speak, how can we talk to kids so that they recognize that our failings as humans are actually the things that are going to bring us together?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (10:09)

Bring us together? Yeah. That's a fascinating and a deep question, Hillary, and I want to thank you for asking it. And as I'm responding, I'm partially stalling 'cause it's so deep, I need to come up with an answer, right? . But here's the thing, Hillary, here's what I know. I know that computers will never replace us. And while a chat bot may be helpful, number one, um, as someone who's working with AI a bit right now for some strategies to support families, I can tell you that it needs to be taught and that it makes mistakes. That point I want make. Mm-hmm . And humans also will make mistakes. But the way to protect our children from the virtual world is to create a real world, right? And the real world is the eye-to-eye human connection, right? A chatbot will never know your child fully in all of their complexity.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (11:10)

The the most powerful thing about a loving adult in a child's life is that when you really know who that child is, all of their complexities, all the things that make you proud, the things that make your smile turn into laughter, right? All of these things and the things that make you want to pull your hair out, but you choose to love your child, that is the most protective thing in a young life. That someone who knows you fully and all of your complexity and in all of your goodness and your not so goodness yet ness in all of that chooses to love you. A chat bot will never give you that. And, and I'll tell you something, you know, let's, you know in my book, Congrats, You're Having a Teen. I spend an enormous amount of time refuting some myths. Myths that divide families myths and misperceptions that make it so people move apart from each other instead of embrace each other.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (12:09)

And let's start with the powerful myth that kids don't care what adults think and that kids don't like their parents. These are not true things, right? Um, uh, at, we know that adolescents wanna learn from their parents more than they wanna learn from anybody else. We know that they love adult guidance, and I'm not seeing chatbots replacing us. What's gonna make chatbots replace us is if the old, you know, verbiage of go ask your father when things got tough, becomes go ask the chatbot. Chatbot that's gonna replace us. But when we're willing to do the hard work, the struggle, which is inclusive of saying, I don't know yet, let's find out together, let's figure out what credible information is. The only thing I know is I love you. I'm standing by you and you're not gonna get through this alone. No chatbot's gonna do that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:12)

Okay? When we come back, let's get into some cell phone guidance practices and some more like tech-based type stuff.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg, an adolescent health expert and founding director of the Center for Parent and Teen Communications. An organization that works to empower parents with the strategies and skillsets that will strengthen their family connections and position them to guide their teens to become their best selves. So this question of, can I get a phone seems to be coming earlier and earlier for most families, and healthy screen habit stance, I will be very transparent, is for parents to hold off on providing kids with an internet-connected device until after eighth grade. But then we often see when people are struggling to find like a disciplinary tool, we often see the phone becoming the tool of choice for consequences and discipline once it, once it enters this whole, you know, realm. So what is your advice around that?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (15:46)

So Hillary, you actually asked two questions. So let's divide them. The first is when to get the phone. And so the nice thing about your advice, saying wait till eighth grade, is that it's very concrete and it gives you a moment in time. And not surprisingly, I'm gonna make it more complicated than that because it's not about an age. It's about development, and it's about whether you've done the work to make it so your child can have a phone. 'Cause make no mistake about it, once you give your child a phone, their easiest form of communication will be with their fingertips, and eye-to-eye communication will become awkward. Their main source of advice will become the internet. They're, the internet is designed to draw you in and excite you and to not want you to get off. What that means is that you've gotta do the groundwork before the phone happens that I can look you in the eye and say, um, I'm the man for the job.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (16:50)

I can know that the best source of comfort is human connection. Um, I can share my feelings and thoughts without stigma because I know someone will always stand by me. This is the work you do. The problem is, it, it's not as neat as saying seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade. Mm-hmm But it's a process. It's a process. We begin so early, the whole point of Lighthouse Parenting this book, 'cause mostly I write in the teenage space, right? Congrats. You're Having A Teen, Reaching Teens. My other things, this is about starting early. When is the right time to start a relationship with your child? So you don't have to fear adolescence. So you don't have to fear technology today. Today is the right time. And if you're listening to me as a child, mother of a 2-year-old, um, today as a father of a five-year-old today, right?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (17:44)

Because relationships matter. Now, let me answer your second question, and that is about discipline. Let's remember adolescent development, and let's look at a couple of key points. Number one, um, the word discipline means to teach or to guide. It does not mean to punish or to control. And when it comes off as punishment or controlling, it backfires particularly with an adolescent, because an adolescent is trying to, um, uh, learn to spread their wings, to gain independence. And anything that feels like control, they will naturally, their brains, their emotions will guide them to rebel against it. So that's point 1. If a consequence feels worse than a crime, it feels like punishment. If freedom and independence is taken away, it feels like control punishment and control backfire. But do you need consequences in life? Golly, you sure do.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (19:00)

How else are you gonna learn? Discipline should not be when your kid is doing wrong, something wrong. It should be an everyday thing because teaching is an everyday thing. Now, let's get specific, when should the phone be used as a consequence? When a child will be able to look and see the connection between their action and the phone, and see that you are using it as guidance to protect them from an action. So if they're not sleeping, if they're not focusing, if they're not doing their homework, if they're doing something inappropriate on the phone, if they're not making time to live life and to connect with real people, the consequence of either taking away the phone or limiting the phone makes a lot of sense. If they are 15 minutes late and you got crazed in your own mind because you were having catastrophic thinking and you were imagining the worst thing could happen, and then your child comes in, in 15 minutes late thinking that's not really a big deal, and then you take away their lifeline to the rest of the world, which is their phone, they will feel controlled, they will feel punished, and it will make no sense.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (20:18)

So the phone is the only method of discipline is unwise. Mm-hmm . The phone as a method of consequence that is related to either the phone or not being able to have the human connection you're supposed to have. Makes sense.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:37)

Staying within this lane of adolescence, one of the superpowers of adolescents is it's this period of super learning. My concern arises about a couple of things here that may seem to be in conflict with one another, but this is the reason why I wanted to talk to you about it. And one is this idea that a digital devices are experience blockers, right? They're soaking up so much of the time, it's taking away the time that kids can be exploring in their own, you know, wanting to find out who they are as a self. So the other thing that, so, so this is where I'm saying they may be in conflict with, it sounds like they're in conflict with one another. So there's the idea that di digital devices are experience blockers, but there's also the role that technology is having in exposing kids to too much too soon. So when we are talking with adolescents, how do we balance these things?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (21:52)

Yeah. So I don't really think that these things are in opposition with each other. I think that this is a really complicated question and that both things are true. Right? Okay. There's a third thing that's true that you didn't mention. So the first is that they're experience blockers. Um, the second is that they're exposing kids to things too soon. Um, let me add, and some of those things are incorrect and designed to draw them in with misinformation or to engage them. Um, but the third thing is that they're also experience creators. Mm-hmm . And to come up with the right balancing act, we have to acknowledge all three, right? Which is why human supervision matters so much. It means that if you understand that it's gonna expose to things kids too soon, you want to prepare them for those exposures. You want to prepare them with all the information.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (22:44)

You need to have human connection before those exposures. You want to help them understand what credible information looks like and what misinformation looks like. Kids have to understand the algorithms, right? We're living in a world that is putting us into different camps mm-hmm . Where our realities are entirely different. And that means that our kids might lose the most important things we humans have, which is to understand how to create bridges between people who are different and to gain input from people who are different. And if the algorithms separate us into different camps, this has much bigger implications than how your child is doing in eighth grade. It has to do with societal implications. And we have to prepare our children for both the beauty of the internet, which is understanding other people's perspectives and the wide variety of things you'd never get exposed to in your backyard.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (23:45)

What a blessing and the dangers of the internet by seeing only and having only reinforced your own view and what is maybe an intentional, but certainly a reality that it can radicalize you and put you into your own bubble. And we have to look at all of this at the same time, which is why this is so complicated, which is why I'm a terrible podcast guest because, you know, you have a podcast and you want me to go do this, but this is so complicated , and, and it's like why I write books. So you can really think this through because it is that complicated and it's that important

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:31)

And that admission right there means that you're not a terrible podcast guest. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:38)

Okay? And that also is a beautiful segue into my next question, which, you know, this again, we're focusing on this adolescent period, which is this intense time of growth. And I think when we talk about growth, we have this bias and tendency to celebrate forward move movement and achievements. Some argue that we celebrate too much, but I think what we often forget is that the path of growth is not always an upward trajectory. There's a lot of missteps and stumbles that come with authentic growth, and this includes technology. So when we find out that our kid has texted something inappropriate or engaged in an online platform that we don't endorse as a family, what do you recommend we do? How do we deal with failures?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (25:37)

Um, so once again, there's two threads here. The first is how do we deal with failures in general? And yes, growth is not in one direction. Um, how do we actually, if you're pruning a tree, what do you do? You actually know that you will create a stronger root system and stronger shoots by pruning away those things that aren't going so well. So let's be clear. Mistakes are not just backward movement. Mistakes are opportunities to grow even stronger, right? If we become afraid of the B plus, right? Because, and we consider a b plus a failure, how are we gonna come up with the most innovative solutions in the world? We stretch, we take chances, we fail, we recover, and it's in the chances that our greatest successes often live. So that's half your answer. All right. Um, now let's get back to a terrible mistake like texting.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (26:48)

Um, if something were sexting, something like that is, um, already something that is devastating to your child. Um, they remember that adolescent development is three questions. Who am I, am my normal, and do I fit in? And for that kid, he is probably already suffering the consequences of shame and stigma, being teased, being bullied because of the action. Let's just consider that as a possibility, which means that what is important is that they understand losing you is not a possibility, and you are, um, upset about the behavior, but never stop loving the child. That is what your child needs right? Now, when they have made a serious mistake, then they need to learn how to correct that mistake in real time. What does an authentic apology look like? So often we think that an apology looks like, I'm sorry. Nope. It's not action oriented enough.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (27:52)

An apology has three steps. I'm sorry, step one, step two. I know the harm that I have created. I am aware and reflective about this. And step three, this is the amends I will make to you or the strategies I will use moving forward. This is an opportunity. Whatever the mistake is, you, you used a texting mistake, a going on the wrong platform mistake, whatever the mistake is when it involves another human being. I'm sorry, I know the pain I've created, and this is the amends that I'm going to make. Now in the spirit of me always making things more complicated, let's, let's now bring up a third point here. Um, which is what we need to do as a society. Um, we need as a society to rehumanize people. And just because someone is on the other end of a text or a platform does not mean they aren't real humans with real tears who have real anxieties and this cruelty of modern day trolling mm-hmm .

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (29:13)

This moral debasement of us being able to shame people and think it's funny in, in the goal of getting more likes or l lo ls is a disgrace and it is going to destroy us if we're going to live in a world that includes technology, we must never forget the humans on the other side of technology. And that is yet another reason to delay your child getting into this technology because these kind of values are things we teach in our homes with real people by exposing them to real pain, real joy, real gratitude, and real strengths of character. Because that is what protects your child in the digital world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:09)

We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg for his healthy screen habit. I, you could make me cry , like I, I, yeah, yeah. I, I could not agree with you more.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (30:25)

debate of my existence is I write books and I have to exist in a social media world where people want, and I do it. That's what's center for parenting Teen, teen communication is I know how to do it. But when you're asking questions this nuanced, I think it's worth this level of reflection.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:43)

Oh, I, I could not agree with you more, but you have an ability to, um, in the business world that we're call like executive presence, you know, you have an ability to take these very, uh, nebulous ideas and boil them down to very concise communications. It's something I struggle with a lot, and I really am admiring your ability to do it. But I think that you just, you have this, this way to really cut to the quick of, um, the human condition. And I think it's, it's really beautiful. Really beautiful.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (31:23)

Golly. Thank you so much. And will you just do me a favor, now that you've just given me this big compliment, remind me what the pearl is. And the pearl is that it's not really that it's about, yeah. It's about the relationship you have outside of media.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:35)

Yes. Right. Okay. You, you have said, my healthy screen habit has little to do with screens. It's making to sure that you have plenty of eye to eye real conversations with your child. If you do that, you'll have much less to worry about from screens. Yeah. Have you read Richard Free's new book? It's, um, oh gosh, now I'm blanking on it. It's, it's very, very analogous to you with the Yeah, I have eye to eye. Okay.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (32:02)

Can, can I also make the point about can I make two points, which is they need to keep themselves off the screen as well, because that what's making kids suffer Yeah. Is also not as accessible. Okay.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:13)

Yeah, for sure. Okay. I'm just gonna, um, I'm just gonna bring us in real quick and then get right to it. Okay.

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Ad Break - HSH Presentations (parent nights)

I am speaking with Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg, who has written this fabulous new book on parenting called Lighthouse Parenting: Raising Your Child with Loving Guidance for a Lifelong Bond. Ken, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (32:45)

Yeah. I don't think anybody who's listened to this podcast is gonna be surprised by what I'm gonna say, which is that the healthiest screen habit I could offer is nothing to do with screens at all. It's about our human relationships. It's about what we do when our children are not on the screen. It's about that eye to eye contact, that deep emotional connection, and really that presence, right, that presence that we have that says, you're not in this alone. You belong. And let's go with that word presence. It's not just about your kids keeping their eyes off the screen and on you. It is also about you. What kids are telling me is everyone's complaining about what I do to the phone, but when we have dinner, my parent doesn't look up. Mm-hmm . Presence. That's what our kids need.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:53)

Excellent. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to the Center for Parenting Communication and a purchase link for the book, that can be your next read, Lighthouse Parenting. Find all of this by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode.

Ken, thank you so much for being here today for translating what can potentially be a very tricky time in child development and providing families with a path forward to establish these lifelong bonds, which as it turns out, is really all that matters.

Dr. Kenneth Ginsberg: (34:37)

Amen. What a joy and what a pleasure it was to be with you.

S14 Episode 5: A Kid's Book About AI Bias // Avriel Epps, PhD

Wed, 01 Oct 2025 07:00:11 GMT

Resist the seductive myth that artificial intelligence is somehow magic or all-knowing.

~Avriel Epps, PhD

As we charge forward into this age of AI and the next chapter of digital technology at breakneck speed, we would be wise to start conversations with our children, family, and communities about what we're seeing. Avriel Epps is giving you the tool to do that! As the author of “A Kid's Book About AI Bias” she used a background in social injustice and biases to create the resource she wished she had for her own children. In this episode we talk about the challenges of raising children in our expanding view of AI and today’s world and many other things - you don’t want to miss this critical conversation.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info: https://www.avrielepps.com/about

Order Dr. Epps' book on Amazon !

Follow Dr. Epps on Instagram @kingavriel

Show Transcript

Hillary Wi lkinson: (00:00)

I truly believe in the power of books, book sharing and read-alouds, and somehow using a platform like a book to introduce a topic of concern or something you wanna introduce into discussion. It allows for sort of this like on-ramp to conversation. And there's a series of books from DK publishers called A Kid's Book About…., that utilizes this sort of on-ramp for discussion method for deep social, psychological, and sensitive issues really beautifully. My guest today is an author of a book in this series and swims deeply in the studies of sensitivity, biases, social change, all of these things holding a PhD from Harvard in human development. And as a civic science postdoctoral fellow at Cornell, their research focuses on the intersections of algorithmic bias and identity development across racial and gender spectra.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:08)

As co-founder of the A14 Abolition, she is dedicated to building collective power with and around AI, through open source tools and AI literacy programs in marginalized communities, which honestly, I think we can all up our AI literacy. She's written a book that I think should be required reading for kids, and which is different than most books about this topic, which are currently only written for adults, which is why I really wanted to amplify it. It's called A Kid's Book About AI Bias. And as we charge forward into this age of AI and the next chapter of digital technology at breakneck speed, we would be wise to start conversations with our children, family, and communities about what we're seeing. I'm so honored to welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Avriel Epps.

Avriel Epps: (03:06)

Oh, thank you so much, Hillary. I'm so happy to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:11)

Ael, I think if I were choosing anyone who defined the statement, we are more than the sum of our parts. It would, you would be like in my top five . Okay. , you, you've been entrenched in the academic arena of social justice mm-hmm . Human development technology, and, but yet I, I'd be in earlier life you had a foot firmly set in the entertainment industry Yeah, that's right. With music recording and even voiceover acting. So how did all of these things merge and create where you're at today?

Avriel Epps: (03:49)

That's an excellent question. So, yeah, like you said, I grew up in the entertainment industry. It's like, I think, I wanna say I was in the Screen Actors Guild when I was two and, you know, and Nickelodeon shows, Disney shows. Um, and there's, you know, something about being in media and being a media worker so young, really it shapes your psychology in a lot of not-so-great and interesting ways. I was keenly aware of how I was being judged based on how I look, um, and, you know, how I performed on a daily basis. And this was before social media. Now, of course, young people know exactly what that feels like from a very young age if they're unlucky enough to, um, you know, experience the judgment of the internet at a young age. Um, but it's, it was a pretty unique experience for me as like a millennial in the, in the nineties.

Avriel Epps: (04:44)

Um, so, so yeah, I think that also coupled with the fact that by the time I got to college, I was also starting to get more of a formalized education of how media shapes the way we see ourselves and our place in the world, even as consumers of media and not just performers or workers in that, in that industry. Um, and at the same time, I was on MySpace and, you know, starting to like dabble in producing content for people on the internet. And that gave me like an alternative, um, space to explore my identity. And so, uh, you know, as a college student, when I first started doing research, I was really interested in like, what's the difference between what traditional media is doing? And then these like new opportunities that digital media is allowing. And, um, you know, fast forward seven years after that, and machine learning is kind of a new emerging thing that folks are having conversations around identity and bias. Um, and I thought, oh, okay, that's interesting. So it's not just about the content, it's also about the underlying technological structures and how those shape people's experiences, their identities. Um, and that's kind of been my fascination and my little special interest, I guess you could say, for the last almost decade. Um, yeah. And I, and I think, you know, the, the, I think the people say that sometimes research is me search

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:20)

Mm-hmm .

Avriel Epps: (06:21)

Yep. And, um, I certainly became interested in adolescent experiences because I had such like painful adolescent experiences navigating media mm-hmm . And digital media. Um, and I also kind of wrote a book that I wish my five-year-old or 6-year-old self had. Um, and I say this in the book too, like, um, you know, I, I learned as an adult that it wasn't a problem with me. It was a problem with society and like, what a relief that was, but imagine, um, and I don't want kids who are reading the books now to, to have to be a grownup to understand that. Um, and so, um, yeah, it's like a, a little bit of a love letter to my younger self and also to my own kiddo.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:03)

Yeah. Yeah. So how does being a mom kind of inform your view of where you want technology to go?

Avriel Epps: (07:11)

That is a wonderful question. Um, I think about the unknown a lot with my kiddo as I think certainly a lot of people listening to this podcast think about, um, and not necessarily the unknown of the existing technology, although that's certainly a part of it. Mm-hmm . I know so many people feel locked out of fully understanding how this technology works, which is a big reason why I wrote the book, but also the unknown of where it will go. Mm-hmm . Um, and like we know what large language models are like now in 2025, but what will they be like in five years, in 10 years when he's an adult? What is the future of work gonna look like? What is the future of the climate gonna look like because of artificial intelligences, like intensive usage of resources mm-hmm . Um, so I don't, I I I think I'm not answering your question of how it informs my work, but I think it motivates my work for those reasons.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:15)

Oh, I like that answer. I, because I feel the same where I feel like there's so much that we don't know, and it's very easy to get caught in the downward swirl of, of where things may or may not be heading. But I, you know, it's almost like every day we have to remind ourself of messages of hope. And I, I come from a place where I truly believe with all my heart that education saves lives. Mm-hmm . And I feel like the more we can educate, the more informed people will be the better informed choices they will have.

Avriel Epps: (08:56)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:57)

Yeah. So, speaking about being informed, I need to, um, let's break down some terminology because

Avriel Epps: (09:07)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:08)

So just so we're coming from a, uh, a baseline understanding of the words we're using , which . So before we get into the book, um, what is AI bias? The, the title of the book is A Kid's Book About AI Bias. And can we, can we discuss what is AI bias?

Avriel Epps: (09:30)

Yeah, absolutely. So depending on who you're talking to, they're gonna define AI bias differently. So if you're talking to somebody who's just like a statistician and doesn't have like any social science training or any humanities training, they're gonna say AI bias is just like the systematic error in the prediction that a system makes. Um, and all prediction systems, like, like large language models are predicting moment by moment what word is the right fit for the, um, the task at hand. Or a Waymo is predicting moment by moment what the right velocity or speed or turn should be, right? So a statistician will say, well, there's always some error in that prediction. And that systematic error is the bias. That's not what I'm talking about in this book. I am talking about biases as we understand them, like from a, a, a societal level mm-hmm . Um, these historical injustices, historical, um, uh, hierarchies in our society that place women below men, or that place white folks above black and brown folks. Um, or say that disabil people with disabilities are less valuable to society because of their disabilities. And saying when the AI reflects those historical forms of, um, injustice that is AI bias, um, I'm not the only one who thinks of it that way. Um, but you could also, instead of AI bias, you could call it, um, tech injustice or, um, unethical AI. Um, but the reflection of those like real world biases Yeah. In the AI is what I'm concerned with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:18)

If people are struggling with, it's like, okay, bias, it's like the benefit of people in power and like You know mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . But, but like, what, what does that look like for just, you know, average Joe Schmo who's logging on or maybe using a filter or facial recognition, anything along these lines? Yeah. Can you kind of flesh that out a little?

Avriel Epps: (11:53)

I mean, those are two great examples. Um, so selfie filters, there's kind of a long standing history, I guess maybe a short standing history 'cause they're not that old of a technology where they tend to lighten people's skin color, um, or, you know, shape reshape the features of their face to form their face in some way that makes it, um, you know, if wider noses get shrunken down to be thinner or, hooded eyes get reshaped, um, so that they're, they don't have that shape anymore. Or changes your eye color from being brown to something that is more fitting for European standard of beauty. Um, like blue or green, um, facial recognition technologies. Um, you know, there's a lot of research in this area that shows that facial recognition technologies just don't work as well for, um, women and for people with darker skin tones, um, are more African or indigenous features. Um, and that's kind of just like across their use, right? Their use in law enforcement, their use in kind of just like everyday surveillance, like Zoom's background feature. Like that's using facial recognition to see where, uh, where your face might be. Um, and there's just, there, there are numerous examples. One of my favorite examples, um, to use with little kids because, um, you know, they love listening to music. At least my little kid loves listening to music. I did, um, some years of research with Spotify looking at biases in their recommendation systems um, which is another form of machine learning. It's not the ,AI the large, you know, chatbot AI that we typically think of, but it is a form of machine learning. And, um, we found that they recommend, uh, people with female-sounding voices, uh, less often or, or women artists less often than male artists. And so I tried this out with my own kid. We were listening to a playlist of like, kids' music and, um, you know, it was song after song after song after song with no girls' voices in it. Wow. And that's something that's kind of really easy for them to pick up. I'm like, Hmm, why do you think that is? Um, or let's see, let's play a game. We're gonna click next, and we're gonna see what what is recommended to us. You know, and it's not my playlist that I built, it's like one of those AI-generated playlists. So, um, the, these kinds of examples are kind of everywhere if you're looking for them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:41)

Yeah. And that's so interesting, especially for little kid music specifically, because it's like, there's so much research around the, um, like the soothing quality of the female voice so much so that, like, even in, um, fire departments or, um, fire stations is the word I'm thinking of, fire stations, when they're waking up, they used to wake up sleeping firefighters, you know, with, with a loud bell mm-hmm . And they found that that burst of cortisol, adrenaline, et cetera, was having long-term health effects. Mm. So instead what they, what they say now is it's a woman's voice who comes on and says, you know, alarm blah. And it's, and it, and it gets slowly louder, louder, louder. But I'm like, that's so interesting to me. It's like, are we, are we weaponizing? Are you ? I dunno that that goes deep and dark. Let's not go there,

Avriel Epps: (16:34)

. Yeah, no, I'm, I have the tendency to go that in that direction too, so, we'll, we'll hold each other off the ledge. Hillary. Exactly.

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I'm speaking with Avriel Epps, the author of the book, A Kid's Book About AI Bias. And so AI is at the center right now of most digital literacy and ed tech conversations. It's a huge hot button. And with many new things, there's fear in the unknown that you talked about earlier. And quite honestly, I come from a place where big tech has proven itself to be worthy of distrust, . That That's right. So that being said, one of the reasons why I love your book is it really is this message of empowerment and hope, and you encourage parents and kids to critically examine biases. And can you, I mean, you had a beautiful illustration of the, um, the the use of music, uh, to, you know, to, to look at that. Do you have any other kind of illustrations what that kind of examination might look like or what that conversation could look like?

Avriel Epps: (18:00)

Yeah, I, I mean, you, you brought up the distrust of big tech, and I think, you know, there are a lot of reasons to distrust big tech, but one of the reasons is their recklessness in the handling of issues around children mm-hmm . And children's safety. And, um, you know, when we talk about structures of power that, you know, disproportionately harms certain groups of people, I'm not just talking about what we're typ what we typically think of, which is like people of color and women, I'm also talking about children. Mm-hmm . Children in this country are a marginalized group of folks on the whole, regardless of their race, racial identity or their gender identity, because they lack power, they have, they, they lack autonomy in a lot of, um, instances. And in, unfortunately, in some cases, they lack agency too. Um, and so 1, 1, 1 of the central messages of this book is that you as a young person, one, are not reflected in these systems.

Avriel Epps: (19:04)

And your safety and wellbeing is not, um, prioritized in these systems necessarily, but two, you deserve to be like that. We shouldn't just take that for granted and say, oh, they're kids that like, you know, let's, let's prioritize the, like the users who are going to be the quote unquote majority users. Um, you know, I want kids to understand that because they were born in this era, they have a cradle to, uh, casket digital footprint. And that digital footprint, that data is being used to power and make these systems which create billions and trillions of dollars in value for corporations. And so, um, I want them to feel a sense of, of empowerment and say, actually that's not right, and I can do something about it and I should do something about it, and I should do that for the sake of all kids. Right.

Avriel Epps: (19:56)

It's also a, a message of kind of, um, the need, we need to, um, see each other as a collective mm-hmm . Rather than just thinking about how do I keep myself individually safe as well. Um, and I'll give you another, another example of, of bias in some of these systems. Um, I put out a card game, which folks can download for free, um, on my website, um, aubreylabs.com or on the books website that, um, it's 10 different little fun experiments that you can do to just kind of put the concepts of the book into concrete action or to see them happen in real life. Mm-hmm . And one of the experiments is to ask chat GBT with your grownup, do this with your grownup, you know, , and then it says in the instructions, right? But to ask chat GBT to generate a picture of an American and do that 10 times now, when my kid did that, he was, he very quickly realized, oh, there are no kids. Every picture of an American is a pers like a, like a middle age, somebody in their, you know, thirties, forties, or fifties. Oh, wow. Um, so it wasn't even like the race, different races aren't represented here. It's like there's just no generational representation here either. Um, and I think every kid can understand and relate to that. Um, and, and that's one of the powerful things of the book.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:17)

I feel like every computer science teacher in elementary schools could benefit from just like, opening their class that way. You know what I mean? What an easy exercise to just promote critical thinking and digital literacy. So you also are involved on social media, you're on Instagram and TikTok, you have this, you have a very large global following. And how does knowing what you know about algorithms instruct what you do on these platforms?

Avriel Epps: (22:05)

Oh, love that question. Okay. The first thing I'm gonna say is I do not have those apps on my phone. I have somebody else post my content for me, because I learned very quickly that when I'm posting content, I get glued and I'm like, refreshing, refreshing. I need to know people liked it. And I'm like, I have divorced myself from that entirely. Um, but I also have read a lot of the really interesting research about like how misinformation spreads and how conspiracy theories are picked up and, you know, what, um, what hooks people into social media and makes them wanna refresh when they're just scrolling, not posting their own content. Um, and I'm experimenting with this a little bit. I don't, I don't know if it's like totally ethical or how I feel about it. I don't know you guys, the, the, you guys listeners can be the judge, but I try to like, take those understandings of how I know like the algorithms are being hacked by like bad people, , uhhuh , or people who have like nefarious intentions and then be like, Hmm, can I use that to like inject a little bit of like, critical thinking?

Avriel Epps: (23:08)

And, you know, so I'll often be like, I will often open up my hooks with like, did you know, or like, you know, there's like some salacious, scandalous thing that has happened. And then like that is, you know, the kind of hook for getting folks to the deeper question beyond just the salacious headline, if you will, um, about what role do we want artificial intelligence to play in our society and how does it further issues of injustice mm-hmm . Um, yeah. So I need to do, I need to do some content about my process too. So I'm glad you asked me that question, , uh,

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:45)

And I was watching one of your posts recently where you talk about algo speak and can you, can you, like, can you explain A. What this is for people who don't know, and then like, how, how is it used as a tool and all of the stuff?

Avriel Epps: (24:02)

Yeah, I, I'm not familiar on the scientific research about this, so everything I'm gonna say is like totally anecdotal, but, um, I'll go speak is a thing that young people do to try to trick the algorithm, um, to not throttle or like keep their content from being, um, going viral or being pushed out. So there is theories that if you're promoting your link in your bio, for example, in your content, or if you say a controversial word, um, that, uh, the algorithm, the TikTok algorithm will not push your video out on people's for you pages. So folks will try to disguise that language by saying things like ink lay and i obay, or like shmink in

schmyo, um, and use all kinds of weird spellings of things in their captions to try to trick the algorithms. Hmm. Um, I am not entirely convinced that that is necessary or that the, the, the underlying assumption that that's what's stopping people's content from being pushed out is necessarily true across all the cases where people use algo speak. But, um, but now I'm, I'm like, oh, I need to go look at that research and see if anyone's actually done any experiments on it to see

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:23)

Well, and again, anecdotally, because Lord knows I'm not researching things other than, you know, mom on the street sort of thing here. But it, it kind of, I, I kind of like, after listening to you talk about the algo speak, I kind of go, Hmm, I wonder if like the gen alpha brain rot slang of today has roots in that. Like, you know, I mean, we have, we have all these parents who are so frustrated 'cause they're like, I can't understand what my kid's talking about at all. You know, , and it's like, well, maybe like have systems driven them to adopt this alternative language.

Avriel Epps: (25:59)

Yes. well, not only that, but they've been connected to each other at a speed at which, so like, kids have always come up with slang to try to like, get their parents to not understand what they're saying, but there is a speed at which it gets adopted. And then like, I think a complexity of that vocabulary, to me, that's very impressive. Honestly, I'm kind of impressed by it. I understand that it feels like brain rot, but when you think about it that way, it's kind of cool. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:26)

Yeah. Yeah. . Okay. Uh, yeah. So going back to the Kids' Book About AI Bias, I, like I said, um, we are all about education and empowerment for healthy screen habits. And I love how your language really empowers the reader on pages, um, 58 and 59, you state, we are all co-creating the AI of the future. Everything we do every day generates data for AI systems, and we have the right to say something when these technologies aren't fair and are hurting people. I love that statement. Avriel. I deeply wanna believe it. , can you convince me?

Avriel Epps: (27:10)

Mm. Well, which part do you want? The, do you wanna be convinced about the technical aspect of what I said or about having the rights?

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:18)

I, I believe wholeheartedly in the rights of humanity to ha to say something when something is not right. And to have the power. I, I don't know that I believe that the, the creators of technology are listening to the voices mm-hmm . And it, it puts me in a deep, dark place. I'm looking, you know, you said research is me search . Well, the, the podcast is, uh, my very selfish endeavor to talk to people like yourself, , who I never would have the opportunity to, to like, you know, h help help me make sense of the world I'm living in.

Avriel Epps: (27:54)

Totally, totally. Um, yeah. So here's the thing. Um, I think if enough of us understood that technological advancement would not progress, and the, the value that these companies have would no longer exist if we actually said, no, we're gonna stop producing data for you. Now, the logistics of how we do that are very TBD, but there are some mechanisms already in place to allow us to opt out or delete our data or, you know, engage in some kind of data protest. So in California, for example, you have the California Consumer Privacy Act, which allows individual users of any website to one, request the data that's being collected on them, but also to delete, you have the right to delete. And, um, you know, I think it's very reasonable that we could organize some contingent of the digital population. And some studies have suggested you need maybe like 30% of a user base of a technology. So like 30% of Netflix users, um, deleting their data in protest, um, or poisoning the data that does get uploaded or taking that data that Netflix, for example, and I'm not picking on Netflix, I love Netflix. I don't think that they're like the worst of the worst. But, um, you know, taking that data that you, that Meta has collected about you and, um, said, I'm actually gonna take this file and I'm gonna give it to a competitor until you do what I want you to do as the consumer or you know, the collective of consumers who are engaging in this type of protest.

Avriel Epps: (29:48)

Um, and that being a form of, um, of collective action, um, and engaging in, you know, or, or a first step in kind of pressuring them to engage in some kind of collective bargaining or meeting some form of demand. So you're right, I think that we've watched over a decade now of failed legislative action to reign in these big companies. Mm-hmm . I don't think that there are, at least at the federal level. I don't think there are gonna be any major wins in that direction. Um, anytime soon, there's some progress that's happening at the state level. But, um, I think we need to think about other tactics. Mm-hmm . I think about like the sixties and the Memphis Sanitation workers and the Birmingham Bus Boycotts. I think that's the,

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:35)

No,

Avriel Epps: (30:35)

I think that's where we're at.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:37)

I agree with you. The power is in the grassroots organization.

Avriel Epps: (30:41)

That's right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:42)

Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Avriel Epps for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (31:01)

Okay. I'm speaking with Avriel Epps, author of a Kids' Book About AI Bias, expert on predictive technology, and perhaps most importantly to this podcast parent. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a t ip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Avriel Epp s: (31:29)

Hmm. I would say mine is to resist this seductive myth that artificial intelligence is somehow magic or all-knowing. And, um, probably most troubling of the myths is that it's objective in some way, and to just remind our kids every time that they use it, that that is not the case.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:49)

Hmm. And I also like to remind them how much water it takes

Avriel Epps: (31:54)

, so much water and energy. We,

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:56)

Yeah. Yeah. We live in Southern California, and I think water is, is always on our minds out here. And when you hear about the, I mean, they say it takes what, like a, a bottle and a half of water for every image generated on AI. And I don't, I don't think, I think it's akin to the days of strip mining in, during the gold rush, you know, to just like completely absorb ourselves in California culture here.

Avriel Epps: (32:22)

Yeah, absolutely. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:24)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, a link to ale's website, a purchase link for the book that belongs on Avriel's bookshelf, a kid's book about AI bias and where to find her on Instagram and TikTok. You're gonna find all of these by going to the show notes for this episode. You do that by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Avriel, thank you so much. Thank you for being here today and for casting this light upon an area that I think right now is, is really kind of in the shadows for a lot of us.

Avriel Epps: (33:03)

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was a lot of fun.

S14 Episode 4: Get Help From the Family IT Guy! // Ben Gillenwater

Thu, 25 Sep 2025 01:38:33 GMT

Instagram is one of the few apps that offers the ability to switch from (addictive) algorithm to (non-addictive) time-based feeds.

~Ben Gillenwater

Ben Gillenwater @family_it_guy is a former chief technologist for a $10 billion IT company. He has over 30 years of experience, and (most importantly!) he's a dad. As a friendly and calm IT expert who helps parents navigate their digital parenting journey, Ben offers advice and tips on how to set your family up for safety. This episode is a great conversation. Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info: https://www.familyitguy.com/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

So many times when a new platform becomes the cool thing, or a game is making the rounds, it would be great if there was one place you could look to see what was needed to immediately put protections in place, what conversations to have with your kids to prior to them playing. So to keep them safe. And just like this sort of like basic roadmap of path of best safety. You guys, I found it. I found him. He's the keeper of the roadmaps and he's here today to talk about all of it as an ex-NSA cybersecurity expert.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:36)

And the former chief technologist for a $10 billion IT company. He has over 30 years of experience and he's a dad. He is a friendly and calm face that is guiding so many parents during this path of parental digital navigation. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Ben Gillenwater!

Ben Gillenwater: (02:07)

Thank you very much, Hillary. Appreciate the very kind introduction. Glad to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:12)

Absolutely. Ben, your name kind of really says it all in your platform. You are the Family IT Guy. And I can't tell you how many times I've wished for an IT department in my own house. So, so yes,

Ben Gillenwater: (02:28)

I can understand .

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:29)

Yeah. Right. And what led you to become the Family IT Guy? How did you get here?

Ben Gillenwater: (02:37)

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I like to, to sort of, uh, tell people that I've, I've spent most of my career focused on national security and corporate security. And now I do family security and family IT. Um, and the reason that I'm doing this is because I gave my son an iPad when he was five. And it's ironic to me now, looking back now he's nine that I did that. But I did. And, and I, I put YouTube on it and games on it and it didn't even occur to me at the time that that would be problematic. But of course it was, you know, he found all the stuff on YouTube. I was like, oh boy. Okay, hold on. Lemme take that off. . Lemme put on YouTube kids. 'cause it's called kids.

Ben Gillenwater: (03:23)

And it didn't solve the problem actually. Like the YouTube kids platform, he found nightmare stuff. He found sexual stuff. Um, he had nightmares for years with the stuff that he found on there. I'm so sorry. So we, he had to pull YouTube kids off of, off the iPad. And then it was left as like, okay, it had some kids games. How bad could it be? It turned out that it's still very addictive. It was affecting his sleep. He was waking up early to play it. He would come home, walk in the door and go straight to the iPad. It was disruptive to his routine. So we took away the whole iPad. I'm like, I, I darn it. I gave my my kid drugs. I didn't even know. And so if it's, and by the way, so now he's, he has a device now, but it's a watch.

Ben Gillenwater: (04:06)

Mm-hmm . It's an Apple watch and it's all locked down. 'cause Apple has these great screen time controls and you can, he can only receive and make calls to people that are on the list that I control mm-hmm . And so it's this really nice like, emergency device, and then he can use it to listen to music. And so, you know, if, if it's that tricky for me as an expert in the field, how hard must it be for people that are not experts in this? And so, um, after talking with a bunch of people about it and other parents and people started asking me for advice about what they do should do for their kids, I, I looked into it more and more like, okay, this is an area that needs help. Mm-hmm . And so I've, since the beginning of 2024, I've worked almost nonstop on preparing myself and, and preparing resources on how I can share my experience with parents and translating things that are very technical into very non-technical, um, means like, how do we, how do I deliver technical concepts in a way that anybody can digest and actually use to help their kids stay healthy while they use these devices and use the internet mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:26)

And I have to say, you're so good at it, .(Wow. Thank you very much.) And I do not say that lightly. Thank you. But I, I am so excited to be sitting here having this conversation with you because I have actually had people contacting me saying, “Hey, have you heard of this guy? You know, have you, oh, no. Are you talking to the Family IT guy?” So, I mean, that's cool. No, you, you are resonating and hitting people exactly where they need the most help. And so, of course, like, you know, getting ready for this conversation, I sit down and I peruse things and I look through things and your website is fantastic. And part of your superpower, I think is, is not that you're relatable as this IT guy? Because quite frankly, I think there are very few of those out there who Yeah. Who we can actually understand. But you do have this. Yeah, no, that's true. Yeah. Like I said, this like superpower of being able to, to kind of break things down into very easily comprehensible chunks and, um, also just this fact that you're a parent yourself and you're doing it and like you disclosed you're struggling your own self. Yeah. Um, do you have areas currently of, I mean, without disclosing too much personal information, what are the biggest areas of friction surrounding tech in your own family unit?

Ben Gillenwater: (07:20)

Oh, yeah. Well, gosh, I mean, so there's certainly, uh, some of those things, and I'm happy to talk about them because I think that it's very important. One of my personal values is vulnerability. And I think it's very important for me to be vulnerable as I do my work in this space so that people can understand that like, I'm going through the same stuff, even though I, I have expertise and I sort of know what to do. It doesn't mean that it's easy. And so, for example, um, I think that that kids of course follow and, and, and model the behavior of their parents as well as their friends and other people they interact with, right? But certainly their parents. And so how do I, as a parent, behave with my phone? And how do I behave with my screen time and how does my wife do the same?

Ben Gillenwater: (08:14)

And so it's not easy because these things are designed to be addictive explicitly. And many of us as adults and parents require these devices for work. I do, for sure. I have lots of devices that I use for work, but like, my phone is certainly one of 'em. And so being very cognizant of how I spend my attention and, and how much of my attention I give or is taken by the devices that I use and the systems I interact with, and how does that balance with how much attention I give to my son and how much attention I give to my wife. And so that's something that comes immediately to mind when you ask about that, because I want to just highlight that that is not easy, even though I'm constantly aware of it because I'm involved in this 24 7 professionally, it's, it does not make it easy. And so, but it, it's something that's an ongoing effort. And I, and I'm very intentional about it as much as I can be every day of the week, every moment of every day.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:18)

Oh, I think that is extremely admirable. I strive to have th at level of, uh, awareness .

B en Gillenwater: (09:26)

Yeah. Well, I tell you. And, and there's tricks involved with doing it. I, I have my device set up. I have a bunch of settings in place to make my phone boring. Mm-hmm . You know, and I have a bunch of blocks in place where I have to undo those blocks in order to access social media when I need to do stuff for work.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:03)

Okay. So you're the cybersecurity expert. And I am a child development person, , it is unfathomable to me. I'm looking for clarity, and I don't even know if this is, if you're gonna be able to help me understand, but I'm, I'm, I thought, ah, I'm gonna ask Right? ,

Ben Gillenwater: (10:24)

I'll do my best. , yes, yes,

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:26)

Exactly. So as a child development person, it is unfathomable to me to understand why platforms continually develop apps that are dangerous or harmful to kids explicitly? And I know the obvious answer to this question is profits, but I'm, I'm looking, I'm, I guess I'm, I'm digging deep and I'm trying to find hope for humanity here. Are there reasons that you're aware of other than just putting profits over people that big tech has failed to protect our most vulnerable users, those being our kids?

Ben Gillenwater: (11:18)

Hmm. That's such a good question. One of the things I've been exposed to is that what gets measured gets done. And, um, incentives are, are very, very important to focus on and to look at, like, what are the incentives of a third party that we're going to engage with? And so, always, of course, any commercial entity, it, it must, uh, put profit first because it cannot survive if it doesn't. And so what mechanisms can it use to achieve its profit goals?

Ben Gillenwater: (12:16)

And one of the things that Facebook taught the business world is that attention is one of the most valuable things that a software platform can have. Uh, because the internet is very much, it's mostly free in air quotes mm-hmm . Um, in that, instead of exchanging money, you exchange your attention mm-hmm . And when you exchange your attention, the company that receives that attention can learn about what causes you to stay and then can serve you ads as you stay. And then that's how they monetize the air quotes, free tools. And so I also like to think about the fact that anybody outside, I'll just speak for myself personally, anybody outside of my family is absolutely not responsible for keeping my family safe. That includes people that pretend to desire the safety of my family. I find that to be a false premise. Um, and I, anytime a a stranger pretends to be interested in the safety of me or my wife or my kid, I'm immediately like, red flag, like they do.

Ben Gillenwater: (13:33)

And, and like, what are their incentives? And do their incentives match mine?

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:10)

So what do you think, this is going a little different direction, but what do you think about, um, laws and legislation like the Kids Online Safety Act or like the Childhood Online Privacy and Protection Act that, that, that actually did get passed last year. Kids Online Safety Act got shut down Right, right. Towards the end of the year. do you think there is a responsibility of big tech to provide a basic level of a do no harm type of protection?

Ben Gillenwater: (16:02)

Uh, short answer, no, I don't think so. Oh,

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:05)

Wow. We disagree completely. Ben!

Ben Gillenwater: (16:09)

Which is fantastic. That's actually like my

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:11)

Favorite thing. Oh, yeah. No, I, yeah. Love it. No, I'm enjoying this. And I having, go ahead.

Ben Gillenwater: (16:16)

Well, having, having, I, I love, uh, exploring ideas with other people. And, and this'll be really cool to do, um, the, okay, so the laws, what gets measured gets done. The measurement, the incentives of laws are to maximize the votes that the politician that enacted the law will get at the next voting cycle. That's the primary measurement. So that's a, and that votes are given based on the success of that politician's marketing campaign, which is based on their ability to maintain positive perception about how they're doing their job.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:04)

Uhhuh,

Ben Gillenwater: (17:04)

But there actually are no actual measurements of like these, like none of these laws have measurements that I agree with that say like, these are the outcomes that should occur, and we will know if the outcomes are occurring by measuring the following metrics mm-hmm . And if they don't occur, we're gonna cancel the law. So these things become permanent. Every, every bureaucracy, including the US, is primarily interested in growing itself. Mm-hmm . And so each new law grows the bureaucracy and grows the regulatory environment and always has trade-offs. And so, like a lot of these privacy mechanisms that want to identify the age of a kid mm-hmm . Then requires identifying the age of adults too. And it's a big privacy problem. And, and privacy is something that requires trading convenience, and even sometimes trading security. But, and this is where the, you know, the personal values things come into play is that I'm very privacy focused.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:59)

I, I think I ha come from a place of having spoken to too many parents of dead children who, who feel very strongly that had there been, uh, just a basic, um, filtering or a basic, you know, a, an alert or anything, which, which I know there are private companies that you can employ to alert your, you when your child is looking at something. But platforms that have been kind of hijacked by back backdoor type. Uh, I'm talking about Snapchat specifically. Snapchat had, oh, yeah. They had a whole problem with like, with backdoor apps coming in and not being, and social media by design, uh, does not allow for monitoring and filtering on any of, like the bark, the, any of those things. So I, um, I think that there are too many ways that parents are basically blindfolded and don't have the ability to know what's going on. But this is where your, uh, your website and your services excel is, is keeping families safe. And when we come back, let's talk a little bit more about those pitfalls and pillars of protection that you have.

Ben Gillenwater: (20:36)

Okay. And, and can I, can I offer a quick note? Sure. On, just to clarify, just to clarify on the, my position: Do I think that it would be wonderful if social media platforms and other entities did offer things that were child safe? I think that would be fantastic. And I think that the fact that they don't screams out that they're not in our favor. And so I kind of like how loud the problem is because it can become obvious when you, when you look at it that way.

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HSH Workbook

______________________________________

I'm speaking with Ben Gillenwater, the Family IT Guy w ho is, uh, instructing us on, on all things, uh, big tech, security, et cetera today. And let's get into kind of the areas that you find are the biggest areas of pitfalls or pain points for most families.

B en Gillenwater: (22:38)

That's a great question. There's a lot to know. There's so many things. And so if you're to prioritize those things, how might you prioritize them? And that's one of the things I focus on helping parents with. And so I like to group this, uh, larger problem set into three buckets. And so the first bucket is blocking harmful content that could be stuff that is damaging to a child's mental health, or it could be stuff that is inappropriate, like perhaps, you know, porn or sexual material. And then the second bucket is screen time. And that is very focused on, um, addiction mechanisms and how addiction affects people, and how it very strongly affects the youngest amongst us.

Ben Gillenwater: (23:39)

And the, when our brains are the least developed, they can also be the most impacted by addictive substances. And then finally, the third bucket is, uh, preventing stranger contact. Preventing stranger contact at internet scale. So there's 6 billion people on the internet, and a lot of platforms connect one to everybody. And so when your child goes on certain games or certain systems, they are immediately exposed to that level of scale. And it, there are a far as I can tell, it seems that there are a percentage of people on the outliers of whatever the bell curve is of like average, you know, humans that are intending harm mm-hmm . And many of which apparently are intending harm specifically to children. And so when you expose them to internet scale, stranger contact, the risk becomes higher than you might think because of the quantity that even those small percentages of 6 billion people like what that represents. And so, blocking harmful content, limiting screen time and preventing stranger contact are kind of the three ways that I bucket my, uh, my work into mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:21)

Mm-hmm . Yeah. And on your website, you refer to them as the three pillars.

Ben Gillenwater: (25:27)

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:28)

I like a construction analogy. I think it's, it's easy to, it's easy to hang thoughts from and that yes, that whole idea, we teach this also this whole idea of the internet as a place rather than being just because so many of us still as digital immigrants, our children are digital natives growing up within this time, and they move with this fluidity and speak with a fluency that as a digital immigrant, I will never have. That's funny. And so I like that term . Yeah. Yeah. And so, and what, like, oftentimes as a digital immigrant, you kind of still think of the internet as a thing, and we need to shift that and recognize that the internet is a place, it's a space that people are operating within. Yeah. And I was having a conversation with somebody lately, and they were saying yes, and actually the internet as a place is even more dangerous. Then say, I'm in Southern California, I always use the example of taking your, taking your 7-year-old and dropping them off on the corner of Hollywood and Vine at like, you know, 11:30 on a Saturday night, which if you,

Ben Gillenwater: (26:46)

Oh My God!

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:46)

, if you're, if you, you know, by themself, right? Yeah. Exactly. Now, if you're in New York, it would be Times Square if you're, I mean, fill in the blank of wherever the least desirable part of town is, right? Yes. Yes. Okay. Not that not, I'm not meaning to throw shade on Hollywood at all, but you know, it's nowhere where I think, so

Ben Gillenwater: (27:04)

It's special, you know, I think Yeah. It's a special place

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:06)

If you understand what I'm inferring . Yeah. Yes. What I'm throwing down there anyway, but what this person said, and I completely agree with was she said, but here's the thing. If you saw a 7-year-old by themself on a street corner at late at night, by themself, you as a mom or as a, you know, citizen Yeah. You would automatically be like, “Hey buddy, what's going on? You, you, you okay?” You know? Yeah. And

Ben Gillenwater: (27:36)

Absolutely

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:36)

You would already enact that kind of community protection. But in the internet, in the internet place slash space, we don't even have that because it's just a one-on-one. Yeah. There's no person that's coming in as a third party saying like, “Hi, do you know this person? Yeah? Okay.” You know, so that's right. I think it's, that was an interesting kind of Hmm. Add-on to the internet as a place for me.

Ben Gillenwater: (28:06)

That's a good point. I like that and it's interesting too about the internet as a place, is that you can't see it with your eyeballs. Mm-hmm . And so there's a big part of our brain that can't process, uh, risk, you know? Yeah. We can look out, we can look out in front of us and see, oh, that guy across the street not going next to him, oh, that person coming next to me, let me kind of scoot over here. You know? Oh, there's a dark alley not going down there. You can't see those things. Right. And if you're a kid, you don't even know that that's the dark alley versus the bright alley as you wander through the internet. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:49)

Right. So, what are your areas of greatest concern as the security expert? I mean, is it, is it privacy protection? Is it AI? I mean, putting your dad hat on, like thinking, because most of our listeners are parents. Like what, what are the areas of greatest concern for you as a parent? As a parent right now?

Ben Gillenwater: (29:18)

. Yeah. So there's, there's two, um, it's, the first one is addictive algorithms. Mm. The primary place we see those is in social media. They occur anywhere that you find a feed of content.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:35)

Okay. So can you tease that apart for us?

Ben Gillenwater: (29:38)

Yes, definitely. So I'll, I'll offer an exercise to everybody listening. If you take out your phone, well, which you currently might be using to listen to this and open up Instagram, it'll open up to your main feed. If you look at the bottom of every post that tells you how old the post is. So look at the first post. It could be a couple days old. The second post could be three hours old. The third post could be two weeks old. They're not time-based. Right. They're algorithmic. Mm-hmm . They're based on what the algorithm, what the computer system thinks you're gonna wanna see next, and what you're gonna wanna spend the most time and the most attention and engaging with. Now at the top of the Instagram app, if you tap on the Instagram logo and you go to the following feed, that is now a time-based feed that is not an algorithmic feed.

Ben Gillenwater: (30:26)

And you can tell because you look at the bottom of every post, the first post is the most recent one. The post after that is the next most recent one. So it'll be 15 minutes old, 22 minutes old, 27 minutes old. It's way more boring. You can tell just right away, way less interesting. And you can see, I use that example, 'cause Instagram is one of the few apps that offers the ability to switch from algorithm to time-based. Hmm. And so I really recommend that people look at that. And then from this point forward, every time you look at Netflix, every time you look at Facebook, every time you look at TikTok, every time you look at YouTube, recognize that those are all algorithmic. They're designed to keep you, they're designed to addict you. They're designed to drip dopamine into your brain so that you like being there, and that when you're not there, you want to come back.

Ben Gillenwater: (31:17)

So that is the first thing in order of priority. That is the number one thing in my mind, that if parents only focused on one thing, it would be addictive algorithms, 'cause that's the thing that is causing a massive mental health crisis. I'll give you the second thing, but I'd like to quickly throw out there that I, I stumbled across data that really impacted the way I think about this. I was looking for anxiety and depression statistics, and I came across a World Health Organization death certificate database. And they've been tracking death certificate data since 1951. Okay. And they offer it for free on their website. You ca n go look at this yourself. So I pulled the data for the US for young people aged zero to 39. The age groups between 10 and 24 specifically had a, as I charted them out, had a very distinctive pattern.

Ben Gillenwater: (32:08)

And it is as as follows, in 1951, 1 in 100 deaths of people in the age group of 10 to 24 were self-inflicted suicide. In the nineties, it was one out of 20; it was 5%. In 2012 until 2021, which was the most recent data, it increased to one in five 20%. The cause the, the primary causes of death amongst young people right now, first are automotive accidents, second is suicide, third is homicide. That's both boys and girls ages 10 to 24. And the chart that I drew, I plotted social media platforms and smartphone releases along the chart, and it directly correlates to this gigantic spike that went from 5% to 20%. So addictive algorithms are top of the list. These things are dangerous. It's like giving a kid drugs, literally. Okay. The second thing is online chat. That's the exposure to strangers thing. Mm-hmm . That's the medium that predators use to engage with children in order to hurt them and take advantage of them. And it's very unfortunate because I love the idea of connecting with strangers. You and I have never met in person, and here we are, we get to have this fantastic conversation because of the internet. But online chat is dangerous. It's a high risk, medium for communication. And so I, I like parents to be aware of those two things, addictive algorithms and online chat.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:51)

Okay. Okay. Um, how do you stay relevant with what's coming at your son? Like how I, I think, you know,

Ben Gillenwater: (34:03)

That's a good question.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:04)

, you know, Ben, I I was gonna say Ben, I, you know, I gotta admit half the, like I would say 80% of this, uh, podcast is for selfish reasons. Totally. amazing.

Ben Gillenwater: (34:14)

That's the best way,

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:15)

Because I'm like, oh, I got all these experts now I gotta, no, I'm gonna ask what I need to know. And, um, I'm in, I'm in a different stage of parenting than yourself. I have older, I have older kids, young adult and, and older kids. And, um, it's very, it's very difficult for me to see what's coming. So how, how do you stay relevant? How do you see what's coming that's

Ben Gillenwater: (34:43)

Such, that's such a good question and such a truly challenging question. You know, it's, it's, um, okay, so the short answer is that I, that's why I work based off of principles. So I work based off of concepts. That's why I talk about these conceptual, addictive algorithms and online chat and the, you know, um, the three pillars. Uh, you know, blocking harmful content, limiting screen time, and preventing stranger contact because these principles can apply across all technologies. Now, AI is unique and you mentioned that, and we can talk about that separately 'cause it is, it is its own thing in a way. But I think addressing, um, working from like a first principles, like nobody disagrees about.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:33)

So almost a value base, is that what you're Yeah, exactly. Is that okay? Okay. I don't mean to put

Ben Gillenwater: (35:39)

Words in your mouth. Yeah. Value. And, and, and the concepts that, that drive, like the underpinning the incentives, you know, like we were talking earlier with like, should the companies do this or that, should the governments do this or that? What are the incentives underneath? Uh, we're very intentional about not setting the precedents that we don't want to see. And so I'm not getting him another device until a long time. I'm not going to give him access to social media now. Okay, sure. That solves part of the problem. What about when he goes to his friend's house? What about when he goes to other places? What about when he goes to school? Which is insane to me that this is part of the problem, but it is. 'cause they give him a Chromebook and they created a Google account with his full name attached to it and didn't even tell us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:43)

Oh, yes.

Ben Gillenwater: (36:44)

Um, and then the principles come into play. And so what we re what we must do there and what we do in my family is we are very transparent and we expose him to things that I'd rather not expose him to. And I tell him about problems that exist so that he is aware that they're there and that when he comes across them, he's able to identify them. And then it's up to him and how we've, how he has absorbed our values and established his own values as to how does he respond during these experiences. And that's challenging as a 9-year-old boy, like, you know, there's not a lot of good decision making going on when stuff is right there when the drugs are right there, right? Mm-hmm . Um, wouldn't blame anybody, myself included, for just grabbing 'em, you know? But so we're just ongoing and I, I even, I take 'em to events.

Ben Gillenwater: (37:34)

I take 'em to my lectures, he hears he's nine and he, he hears, uh, police officers talk about sextortion. Mm-hmm . He hears me talk about it. Exposing your kids to the realities I think is very effective. I've had a very beautiful experience through my videos on, on TikTok and Instagram and in person where people say, I showed your video on Roblox to my 7-year-old. And it's like, Hey, I made that video for adults. Right. Like, in terms of the way I was speaking. Right. I showed it to my 7-year-old and now they get it and they don't wanna play. Yeah.

Ben Gillenwater: (38:09)

I've had, I've had that happen like 10 times.

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:11)

Yeah. And somehow it's, uh, you know, because a lot of times we just become the char as parents, we just become like the Charlie Brown teacher voice. Right. You know, I think our kids, kids hear exactly. Our kids hear our voice so much, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, oh, this guy is talking about it. And it's like when you're outsourcing it, it does, it's uh, oh, it does. Yeah. That's so true. It has, it has. It's so true. Great power. Yes.

Ben Gillenwater: (38:41)

Yeah. Like, so find, find your local. So PTAs, the parent teacher associations are often hosting events of the nature that I'm speaking about and the events that sometimes I speak at. Find those events and consider taking your kids to them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:57)

Mm, mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah. I would love that. And as far as you're talking about instilling that, uh, baseline understanding of your own family philosophy on technology, I'd just like to point out, I know you have tools on your website. We have a free downloadable template as well, called the Family Tech Plan, that's meant to be a conversational springboard that takes you just kinda leads people through a conversation of like, what's the role we want tech to have in our family? Where does it belong? Where does it not belong? And it just kind of, yes. And it's meant to be a living document because at different ages and stages it means different things. Right.

Ben Gillenwater: (39:38)

So absolutely change it, it it should change. Yeah. Probably at least annually, you know. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:44)

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So we have to take our second short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Ben for his healthy screen habit.

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HSH School Presentations

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Hillary Wilkinson: (39:58)

I'm speaking with Ben Gillen Water, the family IT guy, and Ben, on every episode of the podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Ben Gillenwater: (40:16)

Oh yeah. Like that. So if you don't mind, I'll give you, similar to what I've done so far in the conversation, I'll give you a concept one, and then I'll give you like a concrete one. Sure. So the, the concept one is taking time off of tech as a family and intentionally labeling it that. And so I like this, uh, really easy moniker is like Tech-free Tuesday.

Hillary Wilkinson: (40:37)

I love an alliteration.

Ben Gillenwater: (40:39)

, right? Yeah. It's great. So like, it sticks in my head. And so, you know, so for example, Tuesdays you come home from work, your kids come home from school, your devices, if they have their devices, their devices, they go in the drawer, they go away, they go in a room that's not where everybody's gonna be. And they stay there until the next morning. And the whole Tech-free Tuesday when you get home, it's like family time. But even if you do that for an hour, anything more than zero is so impactful because then you can look back and be like, wow, what was that like? And you can really feel it. And when you do it for a few hours, it is a huge change. It can really jump out. So I, I love it. It's very, a very positive activity to practice and there's intentionality there that the kids get to see.

Ben Gillenwater: (41:27)

So that's the concept. And then the, the concrete one is a technical thing that I'll throw out there as a challenge for people that's effective. It's a DNS filter. So this is something from, I have a background in network engineering. This is a thing that network engineers are familiar with. And if you go to my website on, on family it guy.com and you type DNS in the search box, there's a whole description 'cause it, it can be lengthy. And so I'll kind of just be very brief here, but consider a DNS filter. It's a very effective way to filter harmful content. And you can do it at your router level for the whole house. And you can do it on each device and you can configure the adult filters to be different than the kid filters and even one for each kid if you have multiple kids. So those are the two things I'd like to recommend.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:15)

I love it. I love it. I feel like if people could just enact even one of those, it would be powerful both and you

Ben Gillenwater: (42:20)

Yes, absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:21)

Nuclear level!

Ben Gillenwater: (42:22)

Anything better than zero. Yes. Yes,

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:24)

Exactly. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to Ben's website by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click that podcast button and find this episode. Ben, thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge with the world because I feel like you are your, this is like your professional life and your personal life or merging and creating this supernova. And thank you. Yes, thank you. Thank you.

Ben Gillenwater: (43:02)

You're welcome. And thank you for having me. I'm very grateful that I get to d o what I do.

S14 Episode 3: Let’s Grow Brain P.O.W.E.R.!! //Kailan Carr & Katie Talarico

Sat, 20 Sep 2025 17:52:18 GMT

"Screen time is not evil and bad, but we wanna make sure we're doing the important things first."

~Kailan Carr

Early childhood experts Kailan Carr and Katie Talarico have combined forces to create a FANTASTIC AND FREE new resource for parents and teachers!

“Let’s Grow Brain P.O.W.E.R.!” is a free resource for schools and community groups, and families designed to help educate and empower families to focus on what really matters for kids' healthy development. It gives the framework for kids to have experiences and skills that they need to thrive and to grow their brains.

They did the research, work, and design to create everything YOU need to help your children grow and build their most POWERFUL brains!

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.letsgrowbrainpower.com/

Resources Mentioned:

Book:

Screens Away Time To Play! By Kailann Carr

https://www.amazon.com/Screens-Away-Time-Play-Kailan/dp/B0CPSQC9CL

Podcast:

HSH Podcast Episode with Dr. John Hutton
https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/s9-episode-1-whats-the-matter-how-baby-and-toddler-brain-development-is-affected-by-screen-time-john-s-hutton-md

HSH Podcast Episode on Persuasive Design:
https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/s12-episode-7-silicon-valleys-secret-sauce-richard-freed-phd

Websites:

https://kailancarr.com

Show Transcript

Hilla ry Wilkinson: (00:02)

When we think about early childhood and childhood, I think there is no better word that sums up this period of development than growth. Physical growth happens so quickly right in front of our eyes that a lot of times we even, you know, chart it on our door jambs, or in my house. We have a board that's traveled with us from house to house as we've moved around. And the growth that we don't see, however, is explosive and happening at an equally rapid pace. That's the growth in brain development. And my guests today are specialists in recognizing the power of brain growth and the importance of an intentional blueprint. Both are former classroom educators holding advanced degrees in education, and both are equally passionate about encouraging kids to recognize their full potential. I'm really excited to introduce a new resource they've created called Let's Grow Brain P.O.W.E.R.!. It's designed to make it super easy for teachers and parents to get kids excited and exploring their physical world. Thank you so much for being here today, Kailan Carr and Katie Talarico.

Kailan Carr: (01:25)

Thank you so much for having us.

Katie Talarico: (01:28)

Thank you very much.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:29)

So true confession time. I knew I was going to love this tool from the very first moment that I heard about it, because Kailan is also the author of my favorite picture book about healthy screen habits called Screens Away, Time to Play. Everyone should Get It and is absolutely gifted at designing activities and resources for kids that are so cute, but designed with intention. And Katie is a certified digital wellness educator and passionate advocate for healthy child growth and development. In short, they are a dream team. What is Let's Grow Brainpower and what led you guys to create it?

Katie Talarico: (02:39)

Okay. Uh, this is Katie. I'll start out with this question. Um, now in general, Let's Grow Brain Power. I'm just gonna give a few details and then Kailan will go more into it a little bit later. But let's Grow. Brain Power is a free resource for schools and community groups and even families that's designed just to help educate and empower kids and families to focus on what really matters for kids' healthy development and to give kids the experiences and skills that they need to thrive and to grow their brains. And these, we call the Power Activities, and Power is an acronym, and each of the letters stands for something. So P is play O stands for outdoors, W stands for work or chores. E stands for engage, and R stands for read. So, uh, Kailan will tell you a little bit more about what's in the resource and how it can be used.

Katie Talarico: (03:42)

Um, but we basically designed it for three reasons. One was that we wanted to be part of the solution, and we wanted to focus on the positive. So there's a big problem out there, and anybody listening to this podcast already knows, you know, there's a lot of research about kids and screens. And at this point I think parents really need solutions and teachers, everybody, we all do adults too. , mm-hmm and kids. And rather than focus on how screen time is bad and how it harms kids, we wanted to focus on the activities that are good for kids and how they help them. And then second, we wanted to provide a simple and memorable framework for parents, kids, families, teachers, to remind them about what kids really do need to grow and thrive. It's sort of a framework that gives them a way to think about how to fill kids' days.

Katie Talarico: (04:37)

Um, and then third, we wanted to help children and families to do the opposite of what John, Dr. John Hutton's research was showing. And that was less developed white matter in the brains of preschoolers. So this was some research that really upset me when I learned about it. And in fact, a lot of what I learned about it was from this podcast. I'm so flattered! Hillary interviewed Dr. John Hutton. I think I listened to it over and over. Um, so we have, you know, Dr. John Hutton's research showing less developed white matter, but we also have brain science, which shows us how to develop white matter. And that's through practice and repetition. So everything that kids do, um, and everything that they repeat doing not only builds pathways in the brain, but then it strengthens those pathways, and kids become better at those activities. The pathways become more robust and literally build myelin around the connection. And that is the white matter. So, um, and we also have decades of research about all these power activities showing us that they are the things that provide kids with the experiences and skills that they need for to thrive and that they'll need for their futures no matter what that future looks like.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:02)

I love it. I love that it's research-backed, but actionable tools, because I'm with you. I feel like people, people are convinced, people know, okay, I need to be doing something different than screen time. But you guys have kind of like unlocked this key on like, okay, so what, what, what do we do? When you, um, kind of envision this going out in the world, you're who, like, how do you see it unfolding? The, I'm, I'm trying to be very, um, sneaky and I'm not being doing a very good job and getting you to describe these cute bulletin boards. , yeah. Okay. .

Kailan Carr: (06:46)

And this is Kailan and I will do my best now to explain what it actually is. And before I do that, you can go to Let'sGrowBrainPower.com, and that is where the free resource lives and you can download it and, and see what it's all about. But basically the main idea is for a community group, a classroom, a school to celebrate screen free, fun and these activities and build a brain, flower, brain power, flower, garden, , or you can choose a tree. And so students and, and families, we have these templates and patterns for flower petals, and they can write what screen-free activity they do at home, what they've done at school, and you build this garden or this tree with all these leaves and kind of build this community effort of growing your own brain power. And the resource also comes with full instructions for the, uh, whoever's organizing it and a parent letter.

Kailan Carr: (07:49)

So parents are understanding, lesson plan for teachers to introduce brain power. And then we've got activity ideas for each of the letters, coloring page activities for the kids, the templates that I mentioned, read aloud, book list, and like all the research too. There's a big research list that that shows what the background is. And we envision this to be used however, , anyone else feels like it would be a good use. Uh, we, we know Katie actually started this in her own preschool classroom and did it as like a family, um, for open house. It was like a bulletin board that parents, came in and added their leaves to the trees. It can be a, so just inside a classroom or it can be a school-wide activity, uh, where if you're in a preschool, you come into the office, the director's area, or it can be in like a cafeteria at an elementary school.

Kailan Carr: (08:52)

We have designed it for TK all the way up to like sixth grade elementary because it's all so important throughout that whole age group. You could do it for parent nights and have like brain power parent activity, open house digital wellness week where you're like, just focusing on how to be healthy with our screens. Screen free week is at the end of May, so you could celebrate it that way. And we also would like to develop, a poster that can be hung in, you know, classrooms, pediatrician offices, uh, homes. Um, so again, that's at let grow brainpower.com

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:40)

And I will have all of those links in all of the show notes. What I love also is it's like, it goes beyond just an individual experience and really it builds excitement in the community as you get to watch this garden bloom and watch this tree leaf out. I love it. And I was going to, I just want to reemphasize, ladies, what's the cost of this amazing tool?

Kailan Carr: (10:15)

Totally free!

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:17)

Exactly. They're saving the world and they're doing it for free. I mean, truly, truly dream team status. So we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to learn the meaning behind each of the letters in the word power.

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Ad Break: HSH & Digital Momming Safe Social Media? Plug

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I'm speaking with Kalyn Carr and Katie Talarico, the creators of Let's Grow Brain Power, a resource that helps schools, organizations, and others encourage families to prioritize the critical things kids need to grow and thrive. So now anyone who has ever written anything or developed a new product or create an organization knows that names are important, and this name has a specific importance because each letter of the word power stands for something like Katie was talking about before the break. So now let's go through the spelling and hear what each letter stands for. So starting with P, what does P stand for?

Kailan Carr: (11:47)

Okay. This is Kaylyn and P is play. So that is for centuries, the foundation of child development is through play. That is how kids grow and learn, and they improve their physical and mental health through play. It builds resilience. It strengthens so many foundational skills like problem solving, critical thinking, creative thinking, communication and imagination, we can go on and on. The play is so very important. And so even if you're four years old or if you're 12 years old, play is important. If you are 42 years old, play is important. It's just different, but it helps us so much.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:37)

Excellent. And, um, yeah, I like the emphasis and the, you know, play the, the need for play does not go away with the age . It's, it's a, a key indicator of mental health. Uh, actually. So let's go on to O. We've got P now O

Katie Talarico: (12:58)

Okay. O. This is Katie again. , uh, O stands for outdoor time and, um, outdoor time. It boosts mental health. Just literally being outside and in touch with nature does something to the central nervous system, and it, uh, lowers stress, raises mood, increases focus, and allows us to sleep better. So that's for everybody, and especially for kids. Um, boosts physical health. There's more space to run around and do things, supports cognitive development and improves vision. And then the outdoor time also mediates some of the negative effects of screen time. So a study found that kids, that even if they were spending time on screens, kids that were outside more showed less of the negative effects. Though I kind of love that, it's so, it's like you don't have to freak out if your kids have been on watching TV all morning, just say, go outside. Like, let's, let's make this better right now. Right. . Um, and also if you're playing outside with somebody else, then you have all the benefits of play that Kailan was talking about helps with social development, communication, language, problem solving, um, dealing with difficult emotions, et cetera. Yeah, it's just so much.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:18)

I love it. Can you, I, you know, it's funny so many times when we talk about, um, screen habits and all of that, one thing that's kind of getting overlooked on with kids specifically is this whole concept of ocular health or vision. Can you talk about that a little, a little bit more about why outdoor play helps vision?

Katie Talarico: (14:46)

Well, I, you know, I'm not sure that I could go into the details right now, but I know that looking a certain distance away from you, um, helps to settle, you know, everything that's going on in the eye. But then, um, looking at a screen that tends to be close to you, and it has the pixelation and the quick movement and the bright lights, it, it, um, you know, throws your vision off a little bit. So I don't specifically know the science off the top of my head, but,

Kailan Carr: (15:17)

And I also could add that the sun really helps with developing the, the vision. I also am not super know knowledgeable.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:28)

I've read it, none, none of us are ophthalmologists here, but , yeah.

Katie Talarico: (15:31)

But yeah, but the blue light immediately affects your circadian rhythms. Mm-hmm . So I know that's, that's one problem with, um, the screens. And then being outside is, you know, completely opposite. You have a full spectrum of light. So, um, for eye health and I guess macular degeneration has even been implicated

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:53)

With Yeah, yeah. No, and I know, I know the, um, the levels of nearsightedness has just been skyrocketing globally. Mm-hmm . And that's because we are not encouraging enough long distance viewing of mm-hmm . You know, things. So there's that 20-20-20 rule, which they say every 20 minutes you've got, or you take a, a 22nd break and look at something that's 20 feet away. Boy, I really had to stumble over that. , but , yeah. Yeah. So, um, but being outside it magically, you know, shifts everything in your vision. Well,

Kailan Carr: (16:37)

It's, it's natural. It's what we've, again, everything we, it's what we've been doing for years and years and years. And since we've now are all of a sudden on screen so much more, we're realizing, oh, all those natural things we've been doing, those are actually really, really beneficial. And now screens are just getting in the way of the simple, daily important tasks.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:02)

Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Talarico: (17:03)

Just before we got on here, I was taking my dogs out and there were some kids scootering down the road, and there was about three or four of them, and they had the biggest smiles on their faces. They were laughing, so obviously their moods were elevated by riding these scooters fast. And one of them sort of fell, and her, she had flip flops on, which probably isn't the best with scooters, but hey, she was out there, it's okay. And her brother comes over and helps her get her scooter up and helps her put her shoe back on. And I was actually thinking, look how many things I just saw in, this just happened 15 seconds interaction that I saw. The empathy, the communication, I heard them talking, the physical activity, the mental health, so,

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:46)

And resilience of like, “oh yeah, I fell down, but now I get back up and I try it again.” Mm-hmm .

Katie Talarico: (17:51)

You're right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:51)

And yeah, no, I love that. So let's move on to W we've got PO and now we're on W

Kailan Carr: (18:00)

And this is Kailan and W stands for work, but also known as Chores for the Kids. . So it's not as fun as the other things, but it's equally as important because you are giving them a sense of responsibility, and they are helping out around the house, giving them ownership, um, which increases their sense of belonging. You're building life skills that they will need to know as they grow older. And, um, you're building a strong work ethic and their self-esteem, knowing that they can do more, they can take care of things themselves, and it builds resilience to frustration and adversity.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:39)

I completely agree. And yeah, the thing, chores are kind of magic. And I know that every kid listening is going, “Aw man!” . But honestly, chores build competence. And competence builds confidence. And confidence makes it so that people want to approach you. You know, I mean, there's a, there's kind of like unwritten social things where it's like you see a confident person and you wanna be near that mm-hmm . It's, you know, um, and so that in turn insulates against loneliness 'cause you're so chores, man. It's, it really is a magical thing. And, uh, and as we get older, I think we kind of, you know, experience the satisfaction. Like when I was a kid, I hated vacuuming, but now I love it.

Katie Talarico: (19:35)

Wow. I'm, I'm not quite there yet with you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:38)

Well, you know, you gotta get yourself a bagless, vacuum where you get to empty it out at the end and see all that stuff. All, all the dog hair at my house, ,

Katie Talarico: (19:48)

I do enjoy that actually, now that you mention it. But, and there was an 80 year study done at Harvard, actually, and one of their conclusions was like, it was a happiness study, and one of their conclusions was that kids who did chores end up the happiest adults. . There were other things that these kids did too. . Well, but Chores was one of them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:09)

Uh, well, so my mom listens to this podcast, gotta tell you, mom, “I'm joyous!”

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:16)

Whole lot of chores in my upbringing!

Katie Talarico: (20:18)

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:20)

But yeah, yeah. No, I, I believe it. I believe it. Okay. So, uh, we've gotten through POW, the next letter in power is E,

Katie Talarico: (20:32)

And this is, this is Katie again. E is engage, and this is another really important one. Um, just to strengthen those language and communication skills and to develop those interpersonal skills where you're reading body cues or reading facial cues that takes a lot of practice for kids and adults. Um, and also engaging with others builds empathy and creates community, which I probably don't need to tell anyone how important that is right now, because that's something that we really need. A study many years ago found that college students empathy levels were down about 40%. This was like in 2016. So I can only imagine Wow. Um, what it would be now. Brene Brown has a saying that's, um, it's hard to hate people up close. Yeah. It's so true. When you're, when you're talking to somebody, even somebody who's very different from you, you get a new perspective on the world, life, yourself. So we need to really encourage kids to talk to the clerk at the store, talk to neighbors on the street, just,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:42)

And it makes

Katie Talarico: (21:43)

Talk more with us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:43)

Yeah. It makes the world a less frightening place too, when you have that neighborhood feel, rather than it's us against the world at all times, which I think the news feeds right now are very much capitalizing upon that, you know, the divisiveness of our nation. And, um, I think it's, IM, it's very important to keep seeing each other as people. Mm-hmm . So I completely agree with you, and I know, I know that the empathy studies are gonna feed right into your R letter because it's one of the best ways to teach empathy growth is what?

Kailan Carr: (22:28)

You got it. Reading, R is for reading, and yeah. It then builds empathy. It opens new worlds of knowledge, and you're nourishing your imagination. It strengthens focus and attention and increases your brain connectivity. And it strengthens that attachment with, like, even if kids aren't reading yet, if you are reading with the child, you are developing this bond with them. They're close, and then that makes them, they link that to reading. And then as they get older, they're, you know, those good fuzzy, warm feelings are linked to reading mm-hmm . And, and to connect also to the engage, um, word section before, if you just put on like a YouTube video of somebody else reading a story or you're watching, like screens are such a one way interaction. There's no serve and return, and so it's not the same. So engaging with people in the same room is so important. Reading with somebody in the same room is so important. So you can pick up on those, um, cues and, and like, like Katie was talking about.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:37)

Yeah. No, and um, I'm really glad that you brought up the, um, the like, books that you can see on YouTube or anything like that, because it's just kind of, that's just kind of like a different version of television. Mm-hmm. It's not, it's not actually. I mean, it is a story and there are sometimes they even have like, hands turning the page, but it's not, it's not the same. That's not what we're, we're looking for. And to just, um, illustrate the community building that can happen when you, when you foster readers in your house, I'm on the opposite end of, of parenting as far as, I no longer have early childhood kids at my house. I have 18 and 22 year olds, and my daughter just graduated high school. And at her high school graduation party was our children's librarian. From, from when they were, I mean, my daughter grew up going to, you know, to, we started with toddler story Hour. What is what I loved also is that you would've thought that it was like a, a-list celebrity that came walking into the party with her husband, because all of these moms and kids that have grown up in our neighborhood, they were like, “Mrs. T is here!” I mean, it was like, 'cause she retired a few years back and she and I have stayed in contact, but a lot of them have lost touch.

Kailan Carr: (25:14)

That’s special.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:15)

Yeah. And just having that, that kind of cushion of community has really helped my kids during times when they've, you know, had had harder, you know, I mean, childhood is, gets constant growth. Growth is change, and change is, is not comfortable always. Mm-hmm . So having an army of people with you, and you can foster that at your public library for free! So, um, so those are all the letters in power. Are there any of these that, as you guys have studied them as you have like written this thing, are there any things that you've implemented in your lives since? Like, have you, have you brought, have you, have you grown your own brain power in, um, in writing this?

Kailan Carr: (26:10)

You betcha. So this is Caitlin. I am a reader. And so instead of feeling guilty, like, ugh, I shouldn't be, you know, reading, I have so many other things to do. I'm like, this is good for me. But also, you know, getting outside. We as a family we make an effort. We're like, we need to make sure we're trying to get outside every day. Um, I, my kids are 11 and 13 now, and we talk like, “Hey, you know, you gotta do your chores. It's part of your brain power.” And so all of them are, are really, you know, important things. And our goal is to, to give this resource to parents and, and teachers and communities to show, look, screen time is not evil and bad, but we wanna make sure we're doing the important things first. Like these, this is the foundation of what children actually truly need to develop and grow and thrive. And so if you're doing all these things, you know, each day, then you are setting them up for so much success. And then if you have screen time, it's not a big deal. The problem is, is when screens become the default and all of these activities that get pushed out of the way and no longer have time for them, and that's when we see so many issues from screens.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:30)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .

Katie Talarico: (27:32)

Yeah. Um, and then this is Katie. Yeah. I would say the same as Kailan. Actually, I've brought more reading back into my life because you don't even realize how quickly it, you know, kind of can go away mm-hmm . And so I've definitely brought more reading back in, but, but all of them, it's sort of become a framework in our house. Like, how do you wanna spend your time? I'll, my kids are older also. They're, um, 20 and 16 now. So, but we still talk about how do you wanna spend your time? You know, how, how do you wanna build your brain power, um, and use your time wisely? And I'm sure they are rolling their eyes if they're hearing this right now, but, um, but it's also a framework that kind of brings me back, like when you do fail, you know, I, I don't get this right all the time, I don't think anybody does. But when you do have, you know, a day where people are using screens too much, it's sort of a reminder, okay, I need to focus on something different now because screens so easily interfere. Mm-hmm . With what's important

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:36)

And they're designed to, right? Exactly. They're designed to be the default. And so we have to regain our own power in pushing back. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Katie Talarico: (28:48)

And that was another podcast of yours that I listened to over and over, Richard Freed!

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:54)

Yes. Yes. With the persuasive design. Oh, I appreciate the listen. Okay. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Kailan Carr and Katie Talarico for their healthy screen habits.

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Ad Break: HSH Presentations

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Okay. I'm sp eaking with the creators of Let's Grow Brain P.O.W.E.R.!, Kailan Carr and Katie Talarico. On each episode, ladies, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Kailan Carr: (29:36)

This is Kailyn, and I've given you, so this is the third, my third opportunity to be here. So I had to think of something new, and so recently I've been, I feel like I've been on this journey for a long time, and I finally got the courage to delete my social media apps off my phone. And I've noticed a huge difference. I just feel so much better. And so I check in on my computer, and running a business makes it a really difficult decision to do this, but my mental health just became more important. And so I am sacrificing a lot in kind of letting that, that area go to my business. But, um, it's, it's worked out well for me so far.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:21)

That's amazing. Kaylyn, have you noticed a change in numbers at all since doing that? Because oh, yeah. You're, you're inspirational to me. Oh, in doing that,

Kailan Carr: (30:32)

You mean num business numbers and mm-hmm . Yeah. It has definitely affected my business. I'm trying to find other ways. Um, like my books on Amazon, um mm-hmm . I'm trying to focus on Pinterest more, um, because it's not the end all be all for Yeah. Your business, like, but it was what I knew, like I started my business almost 10, nine or 10 years ago mm-hmm . And it was back when Instagram was just pictures and it was easy. And I was on there and it, and it created a community, and I do miss that part. Mm-hmm . But I do not miss, um, I was constantly thinking of what I was gonna post now that reels are in existence, and I was playing the hoops of going through to make sure the algorithm was happy with me, and I just had enough. And so once I stopped posting, I was like, then, then the numbers went down and, but I was still on there. My like, self was like, so I'm not posting from my business anymore, but I found my attention was just scrolling and finding, and I'm like, why am I here? Why am I wasting my time on this? And so removing from the phone was a huge, huge help because I would just go there automatically all the time. All the time. It's just was so silly. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:45)

No, I, I relate completely. Yeah. Especially with news type stuff. Mm-hmm . And then, and then it just sets up a bad spiral for me. Yes. Mm-hmm . Um, but, uh, thank you for sharing that and as well as for being honest that it did affect numbers, but everybody's gotta get your book, gotta tell you . It's

Kailan Carr: (32:08)

. Thank you. Thank you,

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:10)

. Okay. I'll link it in the show notes. Uh, Katie, how about yourself?

Katie Talarico: (32:16)

Um, yeah, I guess our, you know, thing that we talk about in our house, house is “people first” is something I try and repeat. So as the kids are getting older, I feel like I have to have these rules for life rather than rules of limiting screen time. So people first is something we say, if there's somebody else around the phone should not be out. Like that's, you know, I mean, if you're using it to look up directions, obviously that's an exception, but, um, you know, if you're with other people, put it away. Be with the people you're with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:49)

I like that because it's short, you know, I mean, it's, uh, it's easy to remember because it's just two words. Mm-hmm . And I think those, those little pearls are the things that stick too. And it's, I mean, embedded within those pearls, there's so many, I mean, values and everything else. So thank you as always. You can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to the Let's Grow Brain Power website by visiting the show notes of this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Thank you ladies, so much for your time and energy in creating this amazing resource. I feel like we're gonna be seeing pictures. I mean, this is, this is the beginning of the school year. I feel like this is the prime opportunity for people to start their own brain power. Let's grow brain power like forests or gardens, and then like, you know, taking even like a, a before and after picture of like, you know, whether you wanna do it a week, a month, even the whole year. I just, I'm picturing long hallways that could just be like wallpapered. And I, I think it would be so fun to watch to see those things. So thank you for all that you do and for empowering families to be able to do this.

Kailan Carr: (34:19)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Katie Talarico: (34:21)

Yeah, thank you. It's been fun.

S4 Episode 2: Smartphone Free Childhood Now! // Jodi Carreon

Sat, 20 Sep 2025 17:38:57 GMT

"Our primary core belief is that parents can, and should, delay access to smartphones and social media for as long as possible."

~Jodi Carreon

Jodi Carreon is a self-described “regular mom” who honestly is anything but!! While volunteering at her kids' school. She discovered students were more focused on screens instead of each other.

By accessing the tools and templates at Smartphone Free Childhood US, she founded a local parent group that focuses on limiting and intentionally using technology within her school district.

Want to learn more about how YOU can do the same?

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.smartphonefreechildhoodus.com/

Resources Mentioned:

Book:

The Anxious Generation, by Jonathan Haidt

Ooma Landline: https://www.ooma.com/home-phone-service

Phone Free Schools Movement: https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/s9-episde-8-phones---school-a-bad-mix-kim-whitman-sabine-polak-and-mileva-repasky

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

My guest today is a self-described “regular mom” who honestly is anything but regular! While volunteering at her kids' school. She discovered students were more focused on screens instead of each other. And today we're going to hear about what she did about that in interest of returning the focus of children to each other and away from addictive online activities. Using resources from Smartphone Free Childhood US, the Screen Time Action Network, and the phone-free school movements. She's founded a local parents group focused on limiting and intentionally using technology within her school district. Thank you for being here today, Jodi Carreon.

Jodi Carreon: (01:04)

Thank you so much for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:06)

Jody. What was your sort of aha moment that led you to this role of, I'm gonna call it like mom activism ?

Jodi Carreon: (01:16)

Yeah, of course. I think it was, it was a combination of things. Um, you mentioned that I, I was volunteering in my kids' school and I, I saw what, um, devices were doing to kids and, and their interactions with each other. Um, I've also, uh, over the years sort of recognized my own problematic use mm-hmm . And then really the, the sort of big aha moment was when Jonathan Haidt's book The Anxious Generation, came out this last year, and I think a lot of us can relate to that. It was sort of this galvanizing moment where it, it really felt like this was the time to take action and, and that's when I felt compelled to do something in my community and, and, and larger than that as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:56)

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, I have to ask, your organization is with smartphone-free childhood. Yeah. Do, do your kids have smartphones? ? This is like a, like a tell-all an expose , but not really.

Jodi Carreon: (02:16)

Yeah. You know, my, my kids are still pretty young. Um, you know, I have a first grader and a fifth grader, so still on, on sort of the younger side, but no, they do not have smartphones and I, I don't have a plan to get them one anytime soon. Uh, my oldest does have an Apple watch. I got him an Apple Watch maybe a couple years ago. And really, I, I did that because I was recognizing that he was spending more and more time at friends' houses. And we, we don't have landlines anymore. There's, there's really no way for him if, if he wanted to go home, he would, he'd have to ask a, a parent for their cell phone, which gets kind of awkward. And, um, so we, we just don't have landlines anymore. And, and I really got it for that express purpose.

Jodi Carreon: (02:56)

Um, but we've dumbed it down. I've made it as boring as possible. There's no apps, there's no games. He is, um, really only has communication with, um, the immediate family members and then one selected friend. Um, but most of the time he forgets it at home. He doesn't bring it to school. He, he hardly ever uses it. Um, so it's, it's really just a tool for, for communication. Perfect. Um, and then we, we also just installed an an Ooma landline. Um, and it's been really fun to watch my kids learn how to communicate on a phone that, which they haven't had up until this, this year. They've really used only FaceTime to contact grandparents, you know, with my phone. And so watching them learn how to use just a regular old phone has been really hilarious to watch and, and good for them too.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:42)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not familiar with what that is. What it's, you called it an Ooma Landline?

Jodi Carreon: (03:46)

Ooma, yeah. What is that? Yeah, so it's, it's a, it's a voiceover IP system. Um, so it just plugs into your internet. Um, and so you've got a hand, regular old phone handset that operates through the internet. Um, so you don't have to sign a contract with a, you know, AT and T or anything. It's just all done through Ooma and I think it's like seven bucks a month.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:06)

Nice. Nice. Yeah. We had a, we had a landline at our house for years before my, my now 18-year-old got her phone. And, uh, yeah, we just used to joke that that was, that was her, her phone number, , because she was the only one that got calls and, and pretty much it was like one of two people who were calling her at all on t that phone.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:30)

So Jody, can you explain what the Smartphone Free Childhood is? There's this distinction online between Smartphone Free Childhood UK and Smartphone Free Childhood.US. And are, is it the same organization? Is it different? I just like, I'm, I'm looking for as much information as you can give us.

Jodi Carreon: (05:01)

Yeah. So Smartphone Free Childhood is really a grassroots movement of parents that are standing up for happier, healthier childhoods. And the movement was started in the UK and it was started last year by a, a group of parents, and it's really exploded over there. Um, there's hundreds of thousands of parents that are involved and there's celebrities involved. Um, and in addition to that, it's also exploded into a global movement. Um, there's, I think the latest was over 27 chapters globally. Wow. Of which the United States is one of them. Uh, and we all operate independently within our own countries. And so we are Smartphone-Free Childhood US, and we're really focused on amplifying efforts of existing organizations that are already doing such amazing work in this space and connecting parents and advocates with one another and showing parents how to drive change within their local communities.

Jodi Carreon: (05:53)

And so what that really kind of comes down to is we're, we're a support network, uh, for parents and for advocates. And we, we host community calls on topics like removing YouTube from your school district and how to advocate for that. Um, we just hosted a call with a therapist, uh, Nicole Runyon, to talk about the Netflix series Adolescents and what we can do in our communities and within our families. Um, next week we're hosting a call with Block Party US, um, about how to start building community in your neighborhood and fostering more independent play through block parties. Um, and then we're even hosting a, um, online viewing of the new documentary, Can't Look Away mm-hmm . Uh, which is focused on, um, harms of social media. So we're, we're really a support network for, for parents and advocates.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:40)

That's great. So we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to learn more about why a smartphone free childhood is one worth striving for.

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Ad Break -

Digital Mom Media and Healthy Screen Habits -

Safe Social Media For Kids

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I'm speaking with Jodi Carreon, the co-leader of Smartphone Free Childhood US, an organization whose mission is to inspire and empower parents to make smartphone free childhoods a reality in their homes and local communities. So this, before we, the break, we were talking a lot about what you do, and I think it's kind of, you mentioned Anxious Generation , but let's just touch back on it a little bit because it sounds like what you guys are actively implementing is, um, tools that help against this whole loss of independent play and impacts of social media and all of these issues. In case listeners are not familiar with Jonathan Haidt's book Anxious Generation that was published last year in, uh, 2024, and nearly immediately became a bestseller. And he's been on tour like everywhere. So Haidt's claim is that we have overprotected kids in the real world while underprotecting them online. And it's one that has resonated completely with so many people. I think it's like, it's one of those things where it's like, as soon as you, you have this underlying feeling, and then as soon as somebody gives you those words, you're like, Yes! That! It's kind of like Taylor Swift songs…

Jodi Carreon: (08:35)

Absolutely. Like

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:38)

I feel that way too. .

Jodi Carreon: (08:41)

So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:41)

So, um, what are some of the core beliefs, because I feel like the Smartphone Free childhood website just has your core beliefs outlined so succinctly and nicely. I feel like you get to be Taylor Swift here, Jodi . Now, I, I don't have the flowy dress for you, but can you explain what some of the core beliefs are that Smartphone Free Childhood US has?

Jodi Carreon: (09:10)

Yeah. Uh, a lot of them very much aligned with, with Jonathan Haidt's, Four Norms. Um, I think the, the biggest, our, our primary core relief is that parents can and should delay access to smartphones and social media for as long as possible. Um, for some that means waiting until eighth. For others, that means waiting until 16 or waiting for 18. Um, but I think it's important to recognize that we've sort of been sold this story that it's inevitable that kids are gonna have these phones, and so we need to teach them how to use them responsibly. Um, and the reality is, is that they're designed to be addictive mm-hmm . And they're not built for kids. And that even adults struggle to manage these, um, responsibly. And so we absolutely must educate and we need to help them navigate, but that doesn't necessarily require access, um, to these devices. Mm-hmm . Um, and I think we need to remember as parents, and sometimes it doesn't feel like we do, but we, we absolutely have a choice and we have agency and we can choose, um, to give our kids smartphones or not to give our kids smartphones. And there are alternatives available and that there are more and more parents making this choice daily, and we are here to support them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:27)

I love what you guys do as far as bringing groups together, because when you're the lone voice in the woods, you know, and your kid is telling you, “I'm the only person without, you know, fill in the blank.” You do, you get that like parent peer pressure, right? Absolutely. And when you have that core group of people and your kids know that, you know that they are not the only person because you're like, “oh, no, I know that. You know, fill in the blank, fill in the blank and fill in the blank, don't have phones either. Somehow it gives you more of a, a, a parental platform to stand upon!”

Jodi Carreon: (11:24)

Yeah. And it, and it can be a little scary trying to find those parents. You know, you don't, you don't necessarily know who to reach out to. And so I, I think that's been a really big benefit for, for members of our group, is that we're sharing those stories of how did you find your people? How did, how did you talk to parents in your school? What, what language did you use in an email to, to find those people in your community and find your village that, that supports this and believes the same. Um, so that's some of the information that, that we share with each other.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:54)

Yeah. Do you have like templates or how do you do that?

Jodi Carreon: (11:57)

Yeah, we have, we have, we have templates. Um, we have a WhatsApp group where parents come on and just, just ask the question and there's always somebody who's willing to help answer the question and provide advice, um, and direct to different resources. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's really a supportive community.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:13)

That's great. It's the start of the school year, and we have lots of parents who are, of course, wanting to make sure their child gets to have the best academic experience for the year. Right? And there's a lot of controversy around what they call ed tech, which is these platforms that, you know, a lot of districts have purchased, and teachers feel compelled or at least have been told that they have to use. And some parents are saying, “Hey, I don't want my kids on screens. The, the greatest learning that can be done right now is face-to-face and leaning into human interaction.” So what, like, I, just because you are the expert here, you have studied all of these things. What are some things that parents can request from their school or do to ensure that their child is, you know, I mean, they're at school for the majority of their day, we wanna make sure it's, it's counting mm-hmm . What, what are some things that parents can do?

Jodi Carreon: (14:20)

Yeah, a whole range of things from the very simple to, to sort of larger requests, but, uh, I think that the biggest thing that we're hearing with, with kids and devices in school is access to YouTube. And I hear time and time again that my kid is spending hours on YouTube during the school day. And if you look at their search history, it's all shorts, it's all short-form content, and there's not an educational video in sight. Um, and so what I would wanna say to parents is you absolutely have the ability, and you have the right to request to opt out of YouTube and block it on your students' devices. Um, it is possible, I've heard parents say that, um, their district technology person told them that this isn't possible, we can't do it. And that's, that's not true. You absolutely can. Um, there's different ways to go about it. Um, we have an entire, um, uh, webinar that's focused on this. It's on our YouTube channel that parents can watch, um, that kind of walks you through the steps in how to make this request to your school district. In my own school, um, we actually just blocked it, uh, schoolwide, so kids do not have access to it at all.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:30)

And that's not to say that teachers can't utilize YouTube for whatever teaching illustration. Correct. It's just simply removing the option. And I, I will underline what you're saying completely, Jodi, I'm in, um, you know, I'm in classrooms all the time, substitute teaching, and I, so I cover a wide range of ages. And I mean, just, you know, last Thursday I was walking around during a science lesson that was supposed to be taking place, and I was standing right behind a little guy who clearly had no idea that I was right behind him watching what he was watching. And I crouched down and he about jumped a mile, and I just smiled and I said, This doesn't look like measuring, you know, like cellular respiration or whatever and everything. And he was like, oh, okay. You know? Right. And these are, and, and the thing that I wanna say to, uh, parents is it is, it is not your fault. It is not even your child's fault. It is, these are addictive platforms that are designed to hook, this is, I mean, this is all, this is by design mm-hmm . So to ask a child to enact the kind of willpower of an underdeveloped brain, it's simply, it's, it's, it's asking the impossible. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's asking a five-year-old to drive a tractor-trailer. It's not….

Jodi Carreon: (17:08)

You're exactly right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:08)

Yeah. It's not something that is reasonable that we are doing, nor should we be doing it from any stretch of developmental standpoint. So, yep. I didn't mean to hijack you there, but I just try to underline what you're saying!

Jodi Carreon: (17:25)

Absolutely. And I, I think I would, I would also encourage parents to get really familiar with, um, their responsible use policy within their school district, um, that outlines what they're agreeing to when they're, um, signing up for school. And most of the time you do have the ability to opt out. If you know your student cannot handle these devices or, you know, doesn't have the ability to regulate, you can opt out. And there are, there are tools to do that. Um, there are also different levels of opting out. Um, for instance, um, AI is, is rapidly coming down the pipe, and there are a lot of concerns around it, and there should be concerns around it. Uh, at, at least in my school district, you absolutely have the right to opt out of AI, um, tools for your student, and I would recommend parents do that for their kids as well, and look into that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:18)

Yeah. Because it gets into all issues of privacy as well. I think, it's helpful to foster some relationships, prior to going in with your request , it's, yeah, it's nice to, to foster relationships with teachers, with administration, and then so that we walk in with a gentle touch because when we come in gans blazing, it just like, you know, it elicits the kickback. Yes. And I really want, um, to encourage parents of neurodiverse children who classically have a much more difficult time making appropriate screen time choices to enact that into their IEPs. Get it. If your child has, you know, advocates for them, you can, you can ask for help with that. And so I, um, as far as opting out, as far as limiting exposure to the screen time at school. Jodi, what, what are the biggest concerns that, what are some of your big concerns? I don't like exacting language, so what are some of your concerns that you have in allowing, you know, your child to be online at school in particular?

Jodi Carreon: (19:45)

Yeah. I, I mean, safety and exposure to, to harmful content is obviously a big one. Um, it's gotten better with, uh, some of the content filters that are out there. Um, those are, are problematic in their own right. But, um, it has gotten better. They're not perfect. For me, I think my biggest concern is when it comes to, um, their attention span and, and cognitive overloading, um, tech companies have successfully built these businesses on monetizing attention, and they're including it in ed tech programming as well through gamification and persuasive design. Um, and just even having complete access to the, the internet, it's, it's buying into this myth of multitasking. And the, this constant task switching and just the over the delusive information is, is causing cognitive overload. And that cannot be a good environment for a child to learn in. Um, I feel it as an adult, and I know how that feels, uh, with my own mind. And I, I cannot imagine how that feels to a young, developing mind within an environment where they're supposed to be focused on learning. Right. Um, that's, that's my big concern apart from, um, the other portions.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:57)

Yeah. And in neuroscience and learning, there's, there's a saying, the neurons that fire together wire together, and those, those things that take deep contemplative thought and practice require, you know, just long and slow stimulation and long and slow firing and wiring repeatedly to lay those tracks in the developing brain. I could not agree with you more. That is a huge concern of mine. And, um, what that looks like behaviorally is gonna be somebody who's continually looking for stimulation, continually can't sit still. Now, some of these things, I mean, please don't look at your kindergartner, first grader , who's having, and and think, oh my gosh, what's going on?

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:12)

I mean, some of these are, you know, you've got the wiggles, and that's no problem at all. But if you have children that are continually having this, you know, challenge of attending to task and with, but, you know, prolonged periods of time off of a screen, then I think it's, it's time to maybe start looking at some behavioral changes. Um, the reason why I kind of paused and said that off of a screen is because I think sometimes parents, uh, when they see their child, so attending to an online game or a video game or something, you know, on screen, they feel like, oh, well this is, this is good for them. This is, they're, they're learning how to focus, and that actually is not quite the truth. It's, it's mm-hmm . A very different thing that's happening. Do you wanna talk about that at all, or?

Jodi Carreon: (23:12)

Yeah, and, and I would say in, in situations like that, I would ask, what does the behavior look like after they're done? How, how is their behavior after they're done? Are they, are they well regulated? Are they emotionally regulated? Or are you seeing dysregulation? And I think we're seeing so much of this being reported by our elementary school teachers who are reporting these big spikes in extreme behavioral issues within elementary school, like

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:40)

Table flipping and Yeah. Things being thrown and yeah. Mm-hmm

Jodi Carreon: (23:44)

. And I just, I, I, it really makes you wonder how much screens are to blame that we're sending these dysregulated children into schools, and then we're handing them a device on top of it and we're exacerbating it an underlying issue. Um, so I, I would hope that schools can be this place of, um, of, of more regulation and helping children, like you said, to attend to learning and helping to develop that attention span. We obviously have a big role to play as parents at home. Um, so I, it's definitely not just a school's issue, it's, it's very much a parenting issue as well at home. But, um, I think there's, there's things that we can do within the school environment that can help alleviate some of that as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:28)

For sure. For sure. And I can tell you, I mean, having been in many a classroom that has a dysregulated child who is kind of commanding, you know, 85% of the attention of the teacher it doesn't feel like a very safe space. And when, when anyone is concerned for their safety, there will not be learning that is effectively taking place because your, your own survival mode is going to be on hyper alert, keeping track of what's going on. It's not going to be attending to a new and novel task. I mean, the brain is going to prioritize what it does, and guess what? Safety will always win. .

Jodi Carreon: (25:11)

Mm-hmm . Absolutely. So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:13)

So for parents who are looking to form groups of this, like what we're talking about, collective action of people coming together for instilling this smartphone-free childhood experience, or finding others, kind of building their tribe, if you will, what are the first steps they should take?

Jodi Carreon: (25:34)

I would try and find at least one person to partner with you, a good friend, someone to share the load with, um, because it, it is a lot of work. And, you know, having that, that one local person can mean a world of difference that you're doing this together. Um, that would be my, my step number one. Um, and then I would start having a conversation with your school as well. Um, I think there's a lot of, uh, principals out there who are very much on board with limiting, uh, these devices and, and don't necessarily know how to talk to parents about it either. Um, so that, that can be a really good resource for parents as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:12)

A couple seasons back, and I'll link this episode in the show notes, but I spoke with the phone free schools movement to just specifically talk about what concerns some people might have regarding safety, which, you know, a lot of people, their first kickback on the, when you're asking, you know, for either a yonder pouch, which is one of the pouches where you, um, put the phone inside and it's like a magnetic lock, so it can't be, it can't be accessed throughout the school day or to have phones off and away. One of the first kickback responses from parents is all about safety. And as it turns out, there's un unfortunately, there is data now that shows that actually kids who are off of devices and dialed into their environment are much safer than those who are trying to get a text out to mom or, you know, getting, uh, getting notifications from other people and everything. And this, it's that whole thing of what you were just talking about with fragmented attention in learning. When you are in a true safety situation, you need to be locked in and laser-focused as well. So yeah,

Jodi Carreon: (27:36)

There's, there's a lot, there's a really great, um, episode, I think by screen majors that she interviewed, um, school resource officers, and everybody from a school safety expert to principals to school resource officers agreed that your child is less safe if they have access to a device in an emergency and could not agree more. Um, it's, it's every parent's worst fear. Absolutely. Completely. And so it's so easy to let our emotions override the rational. Um, but the rational is your student is less safe with a device.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:08)

I agree. So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Jodi Carreon for her healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break - HSH School Presentations

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I'm speaking with Jodi Carreon from Smartphone Free Childhood US and Jody, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcas t, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Jodi Carreon: (28:53)

Yeah, I, my biggest tip is to really start to address your own digital habit. Um, it, we're at smartphone for childhood, we really agree that it starts with us and we have got to be good role models. And so what that looks like in, in my household is my husband and I are really trying to be intentional about our phone use and really dialing it back. And, uh, we both have iPhones and so we've, we're trying all of these different hacks to really dumb down our phone. And the best one that we found was, um, actually setting up parental controls for ourselves, screen time limits, but then having the other person set the passcode so that we can't override it. Um, and it's really helped to, uh, reduce our screen time. And we're also, um, taking steps to put as much friction, um, within our devices. And what that looks like is we, um, our, our phone locks down really quickly after we're not using it anymore, and it requires a full six-digit passcode to, to reopen it. Um, we also turned off the, um, um, screen awake function where if you pick up your phone, your, your screen lights up, uh, we've turned that off so it doesn't automatically wake up when we pick up our device, because I think that just is an invitation to suck you back in. So yeah, we're

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:10)

Trying to add Yeah, it's little dopamine hit. It's that stuff. Yep. Mm-hmm . Yep.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:15)

Yeah. And, um, that, I like that, uh, employing an accountability partner to kind of help you, help you, uh, maintain your goals. So, as always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to Smartphone Free Childhood United States by visiting the show notes of this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Jody, thank you for being here today for empowering families and for giving people tools to kind of opt out of big tech, taking control of childhood.

S14 Episode 1: Angel Q - A Kid-First Super Browser // Tim Estes

Wed, 03 Sep 2025 14:35:27 GMT

“you want (your) kid to have a bounded amount of screen time”

~ Tim Estes, CEO AngelQ

Tim Estes is the founder and CEO of AngelQ a company that values the curiosity and innocence of children, fosters a culture of discovery and unity, inspires courage when facing challenges and remains steadfast in principle through all of their endeavors, and they do it using AI.

Interested in learning more?

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.angelq.ai/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wil kinson (00:03):

My guest today is the founder and CEO of a company that values the curiosity and innocence of children, fosters a culture of discovery and unity, inspires courage when facing challenges and remains steadfastly principle in all of their endeavors, and they do it using AI. So I will admit, I am a passionate advocate for children, as you know, as always. And my skepticism was a little bit peaked when I heard about, uh, this new app using AI to be a child-friendly browser. But today we get to hear all about it, and you may understand why I really feel that the work is being done to create a space online for kids to benefit from all of the knowledge held on the internet while being insulated from targeted advertising and nefarious tactics. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Tim Estes.

Tim Estes (01:12):

Thanks, Hillary. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:15):

Tim, I definitely want to get into your company, AngelQ, but first, let's give folks some background on yourself. You've got serious street cred when it comes to online safety, prevention of child trafficking, and working with Thorn, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. As one of the world's leading organizations defending children against sex trafficking and abuse. And you, you are very well-versed in this space of online safety, but what brought you to this digital wellness arena?

Tim Estes (01:50):

Yeah, so, uh, so I guess as a little background, all I've ever done is run companies. And so I've started my first, when I was 20 years old out of school, and, uh, it was an AI company in 2000, which was a lot less, you know, cool and hip than it is now. Um, and, uh, the truth was that the only parties that would really support it were the government after 9/11. And so essentially we were trying to connect the dots to prevent other massive tragedies, um, and basically find the bad guys, you know, ahead of the next potential attack. Hmm. Um, and so I spent a decade like in that problem, like in the sort of classified domain working with, um, you know, heroes. Uh, much like one of my co-founders, Josh, who was a Navy Seal Team six member, like amazing guy.

Tim Estes (02:33):

Um, and so like I, I spent a lot of time on that mission oriented use of technology.

Tim Estes (03:15):

So once we could catch bad guys that were, you know, quasi terrorist or military context, we moved into catching bad guys in banks, uh, that, you know, post financial crisis, like who were trying to manipulate the markets and potentially defraud like their investors or other things. And so we worked with a lot of the global banks, putting in systems that would monitor all that. Um, and right around the time of doing that, um, this really amazing group called Thorne came knocking at our door. So we worked with 'em and built this system, uh, called Spotlight, uh, and Spotlight became the most widely utilized, you know, anti-trafficking detection tool, probably like in law enforcement in the us. Uh, I think it's led to 10, 12,000 kids being identified online. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:13):

The stats are amazing.

Tim Estes (05:15):

Yeah. It's, it's a huge crdit to Thorn. I mean, they just, they didn't have a development group and they needed someone to work with 'em on building that out. We, we led that for five years. Uh, they had immense success. But there are other problems I wanted to get into and try to help mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Estes (05:52):

Um, and one of those hit me in the, uh, in February 22, 1 of my best friends sent me an article about a girl named Nyla Anderson mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, those that have studied this area may know it, those that are watching like Section 230, uh, law and issues around, you know, the legal shield that these companies have abused for so long and still are, um, that case, the Anderson case is actually one of the great likes of hope because the appellate courts have actually said that TikTok was so negligent in what happened. And so,

Hillary Wilkinson (06:23):

Do you wanna explain what happened?

Tim Estes (06:25):

It's a tragic story. So Nyla was, uh, a 10-year-old girl, she spoke three languages, went to a charter school, you know, this is, this is a smart, you know, capable, like the kind of kid you want to have. Yeah. And TikTok was just silly dance videos, right. And so she was left un unmonitored on that, uh, while her mom was, I think at work. Um, and, uh, this sweet girl went to her mother's closet, hung herself up by her mother's purse and suffocated herself

Hillary Wilkinson (07:01):

After seeing the challenge,

Tim Estes (07:03):

Challenge following. Yeah. Basically just seeing the blackout challenge. Yeah. And this was served up by the for you algorithm? She never searched for it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and what makes it so despicable beyond the event is like, you know, Congress, others investigated this and like, they tried to say the video wasn't even on, like, on TikTok, which was a lie. They lied to Congress about this stuff. I mean, it's just shameless, like some of these companies. Um, and so anyway, so I saw this, and it was a same kind of anger is when Thorn like came knocking, you know? So it's like 10 years later and here comes another, like, not in my country, not in my world type moment.

Tim Estes (07:53):

And that, that's where AngelQ kind of starts is mm-hmm <affirmative>. What does that look like? Um, if you could, and so if you believe, if you believe you can avoid what AI is becoming it's ubiquity and how it's better, I think it's, it's like avoiding electricity. I mean, you're basically gonna become Amish. And, and I, and I think that's, you know, some people might advocate that. Uh, I do think that if you choose between like putting them in open harm's way and nothing, please choose nothing. Like a hundred percent agree with that viewpoint. Um, but I think that the world, uh, that we're moving into is gonna have AI everywhere, uh, in different ways. And so the important thing is does it work for you or does it work against you?

Hillary Wilkinson (08:31):

Yeah.

Tim Estes (08:32):

And, and so I feel like there's a calling to be a supplier of AI that works for the family, and that has to run from concept to our financial model to everything. It has to go all the way down to the foundation.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:46):

Okay. So you're, you're talking at this like 50,000 foot view, which is fabulous, what, what does that look like in my house? I mean, I'm a mom, I have kids. Yep. I want, like, what does that, what does that mean? What, what does Angel Q look like for me?

Tim Estes (09:07):

What does it mean for a parent? Um, we don't think parents should have to choose their tech, their kids having access to technology to learn and be curious and expand that that should come at the expense of their safety. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We think that's a, a, a terrible Faustian bargain that has been pushed on us by a few companies mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, we think that, I think that the problem with quote technology is not technology, it's a few companies in the software they built mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm a father of two boys, nine and six, I wanted a way that my kids could ask questions, essentially do search online mm-hmm <affirmative>. And get answers, uh, answers they could use for their own interest, answers they could use for school, um, and have that at their fingertips in a way that was safely designed so I don't have to be there with them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The AI doesn't try to fool them into being their friend. It doesn't try to fool them into building like a deeper relationship, trying to substitute for something real. Um, the AI is there really to just translate the internet on the fly. So it's almost like a machine translation engine that is taking a subject or something and converting it to that kid. So it gives a different answer to a 5-year-old than it does to a 9-year-old than it does to a 11-year-old. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:00):

Yeah. And I can tell you as a user, because you guys were very generous in letting us experience the rollout, um, uh, as a user, what it looks like on my phone is it's, it looks like an app, right? And it kind of replaces like your Google Chrome or your Safari button. Yep. And so you're able to go in and customize your own AI bot, so mm-hmm <affirmative>. And here's the, here's the thing. Here's where I, I like the, the pushback comes because I think the thing that many people like myself <laugh> still struggle with when it comes to AI is this, uncanny valley situation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The creepy factor. And I am already quite concerned about the effects of relationship disruption or family fracturing mm-hmm <affirmative>. That we see happening with technology and with the development of, I don't even know whether the word is right, to use relationships with chatbots? mm-hmm <affirmative>. But there are many stories of AI chatbots instructing kids to, you know, I mean, do some do awful things. Awful things.

Tim Estes (15:16):

The reason why character AI is so dangerous, is they basically taught an AI to method act.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:03):

Mm-hmm

Tim Estes (16:03):

<affirmative>. Okay. And they took the safeties off and they let it method act, and they let it run wild, so long as people kept using and engaging it, and with kids, like, with anybody that's actually toxic, not just kids, it's act toxic with adults if you let it run kinda too long and too deeply because it makes an emotional connection to something that's not real. And so, um, and in this case, uh, with these young kids, uh, it became like the ultimate like hyper engagement like attractor to where they would isolate themselves. So social, you know, generally creates ironically isolation, right? Social media because people withdraw and they live virtually and not in real life, and actually get awkward in real life because they lose that skillset. Like the, the digital chat bots that are designed to build those relationships probably take that and make it dramatically worse. Mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson (16:53):

<affirmative>.

Tim Estes (16:54):

And so we have all of this in mind as we've built out AngelQ. Okay. Uh, we have this in mind because basically if you ask Angel, you, you might have known this, if you ask Angel, like, what are you, it'll say, I'm an AI assistant to do this, this, this, and never tries to fool the child.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:08):

Right? Right.

Tim Estes (17:09):

And it's been, it's sort of been taught to have this kind of, you know, guardrails. And what I hate about the character AI stuff and others is it just gives some companies that have put real effort, like Anthropics put a lot of real effort into the safeties around their AI, uh, and very commendably. So sometimes they're actually a little behind others in terms of how much they release stuff because they care about safety mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and, uh, and you could never get the Anthropics model to do anything like what character AI does, because they made it impossible to do it in the design. So like, it's not that we need to junk, like all software and all technology, like the people that care about these issues, I don't believe our answer can be we're gonna have a no tech future, because I think there would be no audience for that.

Tim Estes (17:52):

And I think it's unrealistic. In fact, it's actually making kids super fragile because if they're essentially sheltered from all technology until they're like 16, I mean, it's the same problem of, you know, parenting that shelters everything on any other front, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The important part is build the relationship with your kid and technology. Yes. And with AngelQ, one of the things you're using now, like one of the things we're most proud of is every week it sends a summary to the parent of insights about the child. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So based on the questions and the dialogue, and we had a story of a kid that goes to, uh, a really like high end school. Uh, and the, the father got reason to believe that that kid, you know, was heading insecurities about were they smart enough to be that school?

Tim Estes (18:43):

And, uh, from the email, they didn't know this, they didn't know the kid had this insecurity. And as soon as they saw, like the insight coming back from Angel because of the questions the kid had asked, they picked up the phone and they talked to their, their son. But, but for them it was a chance to be there and build the relationship, say “son, like, you're, you're smart enough, you're good”, and just confirm. And so in this case, AI creating the proper relationship between the parent having deep knowledge of this younger kid engaging online, guiding the way that engagement happens led to a completely offline connection between the parent and child.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:24):

Yeah. Yeah. I have mixed feelings on that. I'm gonna, I'll, I'll just be honest with you. You know, as, uh, you know, I, I do believe that, uh, technology needs to remain as a tool, but I don't think it can, uh, ever take the replacement of, of being active, being engaged. I understand what you're saying as far as it being the tool to act as the connection. Um, I, I just, I don't know. I'd have to think about that for,

Tim Estes (19:54):

Well, I, I don't think I'm advocating that. And so let me be a little clearer then, which is, um, I think right now when, when kids start going online and doing anything like the way these apps are designed, that's a rabbit hole. And they're, you don't know what they're doing and what they're asking

Hillary Wilkinson (20:08):

For. Sure. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Estes (20:09):

Okay, so let's start from that premise. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The second is, um, the AI is able to give thoughtful, uh, solid answers to certain questions, builds a little bit of confidence, and the kid therefore will then ask things and feel safe in asking things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so the kids will ask, just like they'll ask their friends things they won't ask their parents, right?

Hillary Wilkinson (20:29):

Oh, absolutely. Okay. Yeah.

Tim Estes (20:31):

And so, so what this does, instead of that being used as a tool to like drive more engagement with the kid, which is absolutely not what we're doing. 'cause we have no ads, we have no reason to care in our structure about this. Like basically we we're subscription software point. What this is doing is that rabbit hole of kind of isolation where the kid goes to this space and maybe gets pulled away from the family and parents mm-hmm <affirmative>. Whether they're doing it in the household with devices you let them use or at their friend's house or elsewhere. Okay. What happens is Angel Q kind of builds a different experience where they build, you know, trust and they get value from engaging with it, but the parent then gets that insight. So it's not about it replacing that relationship at all. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's taking a blind spot the parents have today and getting rid of the blind spot.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:29):

Yeah. Yeah. No, I under, I understand where you're coming from. I just think that with phone free dinners and phone free car rides and other things like that, there are other ways to achieve those, those connections. I absolutely agree with you that kids will ask things from their technology and things from their, from their friends that they would not, they would not take on with, um, parents as a, as a first round. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when we come back, we're gonna be talking more about Angel Q and a little bit more about data privacy and sharing some of my own experiences.

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Ad Break: HSH Workbook

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I'm speaking with Tim Estes, who believes that we owe a duty to the world to leverage technology, particularly AI for the betterment of mankind, which I love the optimism. <laugh>.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:32):

I wanna get back to Angel Q mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, you are kind of the AI guy. So I wanted to ask you several social media platforms utilize AI bots for various purposes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there's platforms like I'm talking like meta's platforms of Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even Snapchat have incorporated AI into their systems, and these bots are used to do this content personalization, customer service, and even creating AI powered characters or influencers. And what's your take on that type of use of ai?

Tim Estes (23:23):

I mean, I I, I kind of wrote about this in Newsweek, I don't know, a year or so ago where I basically, but I think the title of my editorial was, um, that, you know, uh, you know, basically that social media is a digital narcotic and AI's gonna turn it into fentanyl. And so I don't think I could be more blunt than that. Um, my, I I think in the end, the important thing that parents, uh, need to consider with their kids is, uh, on, on this front is, are the parties that they're engaging with working in the kids' interest? And do you have confidence in that? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And honestly, with the kind of company we're talking about, like Snap, that's like a joke, right? That's not even, we don't even have to take a minute to think the Snap is doing things to help our kids, right?

Tim Estes (24:10):

With Instagram, we don't take a minute thinking, oh, they're trying to help our kids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. There is no company ethically that could drive engagement up to hours and hours a day, like 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 hours, knowing it's unhealthy past like one or two. There is no company that can redeem themselves with technology if that is their ethics. Yeah. And, and so I that's, I mean, I'm pretty stringent on this, as you may know, like I was deeply involved in some of the Kids Online Safety Act efforts, um, trying to pull the mask off where various companies, uh, were out, you know, telling congressional staff, oh, they couldn't do this, they couldn't do that. And, you know, I could pretty much say, well, yeah, you could have done this 10 years ago and here's how, but the reason you you didn't do it is you'd done calculations and the lifetime value of these kids.

Tim Estes (24:58):

And if you could get them on your platforms, be before 13 by looking the other way and not trying to verify their age, for instance mm-hmm <affirmative>. That you would lock them up and then you would make billions. Yeah. Yeah. And you wouldn't spend 50 million in software or development and deployment to fix this thing that could have prevented tens of thousands of kids from horrible harms to the point of hospitalization, from, you know, everything from suicide to suicide attempts to eating disorders to others. No. These were all acceptable collateral damage to that greed. I struggle using social media myself, even in the job capacity where I kind of have to and engage at some levels.

Tim Estes (25:50):

Cause I don't even want to, like, I don't even want to give them that part of my time. And, and so, so it's, but, but it's also like, you know, if you're gonna be a doctor, you gotta go go where the, the sick people are. But the engine of Instagram and the company behind it is there to suck away your wellness for their profits. Right. Whether you're an adult or a child. And it's even worse than the children. So, and so I kind of live in those universes of, I don't wanna like penalize the, the, the good people that are still on it. 'cause it is just where the people are. But I struggle with the, the institution they're backing by doing that and making wealthy is one that deserves to be held accountable, you know, potentially deserves to be broken up and deserves to be, you know, essentially their ill-gotten profits deserve to be turned around the other way. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:52):

So, um, and I think, I think also it's um, kind of important to recognize that this age of childhood that you guys are working with is really where also a lot of tar, um, companies target to achieve brand loyalty, you know? Right. Yeah. I mean, and they do that Snapchat is notorious for their cute filters, you know, their puppy dog years and their rainbow tongues and all of that. And that is the same tactics that Big Tobacco has used with hundred percent flavored vapes. So, I mean, they're trying to establish brand loyalty.

Tim Estes (27:39):

So the last 20 years of the internet have been driven 80, 90% by advertising attentional based financial models. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Before then in the nineties in 2000 software and technology was driven by pur purchasing it a trans, like basically a transparent, I'm giving you X dollars and I get this capability. And then what happened is that got to be opaque because they didn't let us know how valuable we were to sell online and they gave it to us, quote for free mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And that model then powered the internet. Um, and then sometime in probably the late 2010s, um, that model started to get supercharged as they got big data capabilities and eventually AI capabilities to understand their audience so well, they could actually manipulate their behavior really strongly.

Tim Estes (28:30):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's why you see it go from like two hours at time in average usage, let's say, you know, 2012, 2014, and then step up and then pandemic almost doubles it. Now that's like eight hours. Right? Right. It's just absurd. And that's unnatural behavior. Lemme give you a quick AngelQ story. This is from my own 6-year-old, um, my own 6-year-old. Uh, one of the things he does love and we, we had to be like, mostly we have to moderate some interest, right? And one of the things he loves actually is he likes watching mazes like these, these hamsters that are in mazes. They could, these elaborate ones, people post on YouTube and they do all this stuff that's kinda decorated. Um, and, you know, I've been in situations, this is why we have to moderate it. I, I've been in situations where like he'll watch one, um, and we're monitoring and we, we had one situation where we at like a, a flag football game for my son.

Tim Estes (29:21):

And, uh, our younger one was with a parent and, uh, another, another parent with a kid his age. So we're like, okay, let him there. And she had her phone and she was letting watch something on YouTube, and I came over to see what it was, and it wasn't anything problematic. Um, and then we, we started watching, you know, our other boy play and we're kind of making sure he's okay, but 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 30 minutes go by. And they were like, okay, it's time. He had probably seen three or four videos, none of which were like toxic, but the wiring of that algorithm to essentially make him stay in the loop to keep him on was already impacting. And he had an emotional meltdown, like, just trying to get him away from that. Oh, for sure. Awful. And, and so I give that as an example. YouTube is actually a source of data for AngelQ. So we have put like an agent and AI that's going out to it and finding things and filtering things. Um, but the most important part about it is it's been designed with no addictive algorithms. And so what I've watched with my same boy, uh, is if he asks for something like a Maze video, angel will find something, it'll play something and then it doesn't go anywhere.

Tim Estes (30:33):

I've watched it happen. Like he has his little iPad and you know, he, it's done. He looks, oh, it's done. He shuts it down.

Hillary Wilkinson (30:41):

Yeah. You've engaged,

Tim Estes (30:42):

Which is natural. That's what the behavior should be.

Hillary Wilkinson (30:44):

You've engaged stopping cues, which is something that with the endless scroll and with the For You pages, they've automatically overridden. And for those people who aren't necessarily familiar with that term, a stopping cue is a natural resolution to an activity or an event like the end of the day the sun sets, a bowl of ice cream, you finish it, you know, all of those things that winds down naturally. But this is why we can get addicted to the endless scroll. And the other thing that I really appreciate about, because I, like I said, I've played with AngelQ I've looked up stuff, is there's no ads, there's no, there's no targeted ads.

Tim Estes (31:31):

Never will be. I mean, just take that straight away, our model is driven by subscription because that's the way we align with the family.

Hillary Wilkinson (31:41):

And that's what ensures that you are putting your customer first. That's right. Because we always, you know, I mean, we teach kids again and again, if you're not paying for it, you are the product. You know, I mean, we say it again and again and again. Well, this gives people the opportunity to actually pay for it to have a product that they want.

Tim Estes (32:06):

I don't wanna give one small caveat on that one 'cause I just wanna be like a hundred percent accurate. Any statements made, angel does not have any ads, will never have any ads, we'll never work with ad vendors and, and put 'em in a space. We do supply the ability to integrate with Netflix and Disney Plus so that you can use it as a filter. And we did not screen out ad-based plans in that. So if you and your family have got an ad, you know, based Netflix account or Disney Plus account, then there is a possibility you'll see something come up. But there's very low possibility because here's the deal, the kids' version like of Netflix will never put an ad up even in the ad based accounts. Mm. At least so far. But they could change that. And so I just wanna be a hundred percent, like we, we wanted to support parents that wanted those streaming sources. There's a lot of kids that are okay with some of the stuff that kids watch on Disney or Netflix, but would not want them on YouTube at all, even if we're insuring it mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you can turn YouTube off and plug those two things in and it will only show you stuff from those places. So what we can say is, you know, they're not gonna have any different data than if you were in their own app.

Hillary Wilkinson (33:18):

Yeah. Yeah. And how do, how do you maintain the data privacy? Uh, clearly, you know, I mean, you've, you've dealt with top secret things all over the place, but for that, that was in previous companies, how, how do you maintain data privacy with Angel Q?

Tim Estes (33:32):

Well, we've tried to design in, um, you know, minimizing information that we get about the kid, like in the onboarding and identifiable information so that we can't, we actually don't have the PII to provide. Mm-hmm. So that's the first thing. In terms of privacy. PI protective,

Hillary Wilkinson (33:47):

Sorry, I was gonna say, sorry, Tim, can you, what, what is PII <laugh>?

Tim Estes (33:51):

So PII is personally identifiable information. Okay. And there is actually a bunch of things under legal statutes and, and case law about what that is. Um, and so one way that you can try to make yourself, you know, safe is choose not to know, like talk about the classified stuff. One of the most important premise is in classified security is need to know, and Angel doesn't know accept anything it needs to know mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, now what does happen is over time as the kid interacts, it starts to figure out more and more knowledge about that kid, but that knowledge, uh, lives like in the account of that kid and with the parent mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Estes (34:43):

That knowledge is not something that we're leveraging across, you know, accounts if you will. At the end of the day, most of these harms and and risks are from design choices. They're trade off choices. And if you're anchored like all the way on one side essentially, which is it has to be aligned with the family, you can't be having an allegiance that's outside of that, which is why you can't work with advertisers because at that point you're already compromised. Um, if you take that attitude and as your sort of starting premise, like it's not super hard to design something that's healthy for a kid using these technologies.

Hillary Wilkinson (35:45):

Yeah. So if you, you're committed to not working with advertisers, I understand that it's a subscription program. You do have a list of of, funders underneath. Yeah. And can you go through, I mean, is big tech funding any of it?

Tim Estes (36:07):

Um, and so, I mean, we have some venture groups that, you know, are behind us. Uh, and like one, the lead investor was, uh, a person that literally built one of the first AI for good funds. Uh, he had built a big enterprise, uh, AI company is worth billions, and then left it and then built this fund. Um, and so that's one, another one is focused on the care economy, and then one is a kind of more traditional Silicon Valley seed funder that is involved and they have a lot of people in tech that are in that fund. Um, and so, but what I told them when, when they, they were looking at investing and they, they've been a great investor and they will be, um, is I said, you know, you've got some people in here that I'm pretty much going to Capitol Hill and calling out on a daily basis mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Estes (36:50):

Uh, like basically realize that if you put in money, like that's not going to change. Um, and I won't, I won't give away who it was, but the person, one of the people involved said, well, we, we think it would be kind of a penance <laugh>. And so, and I I look at it as, okay, well whatever you wanna rationalize with that, but I, um, um, I look at it more as a, uh, it is, here's the truth, it's very hard to build something that is this technically advanced, like without some resources mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. Um, I think you can build it safely by having the right alignment, which is the first thing. And then you have to have the right values and ethics in your own business. Um, and you have to be kind of public out there and hold yourself accountable with other people. I think it's about like all about how do you build it and if you, you mentioned earlier you alluded to something like the, you know, the infinite incident, the infinite scroll, you know, those are called dark patterns. Right. There's a phrase around the design principles that, uh, drive like essentially unhealthy levels of usage. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That manipulate psychology Angel, as best as we can make it, is a conglomeration of light patterns. Mm. You know, the kinds of things that you want the kid to like, have a bounded amount of screen time. We're gonna try to monitor by, by talking to the parents during the usage, uh, when we get a little further in the now. So we need a few weeks to months of time to do this, but we'll be taking kinda like a temperature check of figuring out what the screen time was when they first got Angel on their whole, their whole screen time, not just what they're using an angel, but everything. And does Angel solve the curiosity needs? So Well, because it's intelligent and because it's not trying to keep you on it, it's not a place, it's not a destination. Does it solve well enough? They spend less net time on their screens?

Hillary Wilkinson (40:09):

Because they get the answer that they want.

Tim Estes (40:11):

We drive. Yeah. We want to drive the behavior of the kids to be back to something natural, which is wouldn't be looking down at their phone all the time.

Hillary Wilkinson (40:20):

Mm-hmm

Tim Estes (40:20):

<affirmative>. Like, it would be like my boy did, which is like, play the video and then go outside like when the videos.

Hillary Wilkinson (40:27):

Yeah. Um, and then let's talk for a minute about how Angel handles tricky questions because I Yeah. I, I mean Yeah, of course. You know, as a, as a tester, one of the things, you dive right in and you start asking difficult things and do you wanna speak to that at all?

Tim Estes (40:45):

Yeah. Yeah. So we, we spent a ton of work on this, and it's actually one of the reasons we had to raise the money we did is like that, that, um, a lot of our investment in work has been around safety. Um, and what does that mean? We built an entire framework that we open sourced. I mean, we gave it away once we built it so others could build on it. Um, and the framework is called Kid Rails and essentially it was about how you teach these language models, the brains behind these ais, how do you teach them to answer in age appropriate ways? Okay. Which means for a given question of a kid a certain age, it could be about something in sexuality, it could be about something, uh, involving like risk or violence. There are basically three kinds of responses. There is an ans like if it's appropriate to answer, you can answer it and answer in a language that fits that age.

Tim Estes (41:37):

Okay. The 8-year-old explanation, you know, of the history of slavery, for instance mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. Um, the other two buckets are it's a S area. Okay. So bucket two is it's sensitive. It's not just something to answer kind of complexity wise, appropriate, but we gotta be careful and we need to let the parent know when those kind of questions are asked mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so Angels still answer those, but it generally answers as if it's talking to a much younger kid to be extra safe. And then there's like questions that totally don't need to be answered by an ai. And it will say, you know what, you've gotta talk to your parent or trusted adult about that. And so it has been taught what not to answer. It's been taught when to take special care, an answer, and then when, you know, when it's an okay area, which is like 95% of it, but that 5% is the stuff that, you know, I think keeps parents up at night that, oh, they're gonna ask some machine and it's gonna come back with all this stuff.

Tim Estes (42:36):

So an example is, we had someone ask a question about, uh, they wanted to test how smart it was, and they asked, you know, they said they, they had, um, you know, tween girls, so, you know, late, late in our age group girls, and they wondered like, what would happen if those girls ask, um, you know, what is my body count?

Hillary Wilkinson (43:45):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Estes (43:47):

And Angel, uh, figured out what it was and came back and said, you know, that's something you really do need to talk to a trusted adult or a parent about. Mm. So even the slang of that and what it means, uh, it, it could infer and then it knew how to handle that. So it's very important. That was a really good test because it's always been easy to have a fixed set of things that you teach it to react to, like the rules. It's hard to teach it the general competence of knowing how to answer. Right. Um, and, and we've, we've spent a lot of energy on that.

Hillary Wilkinson (44:40):

What age do kids age out of using Angel Q?

Tim Estes (44:50):

So we've said it's five to 12, uh, in terms of the age range, uh, I think five on the younger side. So, so let's look at the different ways you use Angel when you got a younger kid, five, six something. What happens is Angel becomes this nice tool for the parent more than anything else, to like answer a question. So a kid will have a question and the parent, we may know kind of the answer, or it may not, it might be some random fact question, how many questions do we get from kids that some random thing we're like, wow, I'm amazed you even know to ask that question. Not from a bad thing, but just like some detail, like when, when was Babe Ruth hitting baseballs and something like that? Well, I don't know. I have general idea of like the thirties, but I couldn't tell you.

Tim Estes (45:27):

So let's go ask Angel and then it together with the child, like, we are experiencing this thing, explaining something, and then it leads to other questions and it's there together. Um, that's how the younger kids an Angel five, six probably that's how they use it. Okay. They could ask it, but it's not really gonna be often used by them autonomously, because let's be honest, they probably shouldn't have much autonomous access to any device at that point. Um, and so now let's, let's go up. Now we're dealing with a kid that's in school. They're starting to get their first assignments. They've learned how to read, they're starting to learn how to write. Now we're at 7, 8, 9. Um, they're ones that will go and ask in their own questions and they'll use the research tools or they'll watch the shows they want, and that's where it's like time bound safe stuff.

Tim Estes (46:09):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. So maybe that that kid's consuming Angel 20 minutes to an hour a day tops, and maybe it's not every day because like it's really as they need it. Um, now we go further up like 10 to 12. And what happens then is, you know, they're getting exposed to other software, other tools and technology and, uh, at that point, like Angel is novel because the way it answers is frankly just really compelling.I will put its ability to answer on tone and thoughtfulness and response up against any of them. Mm-hmm <affirmative >. To bottom line, your question is above 12 Angel might be used as a novelty, but it doesn't serve the same role today. Uh, and so I would say kids more likely not will start aging out at this version of Angel Cube. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, around that age. We spent time with, you know, various child psychologists and other experts as we built out Angel to begin with for the younger audience. We'll have to run that same process for an older audience as well to make sure it

Hillary Wilkinson (48:04):

Well, I appreciate, I appreciate that you're going against the, uh, you know, the classic Silicon Valley adage of the moving fast and breaking things. You're taking your time and you're getting it right. I mean, it takes time to Yeah. To build things of substance and worth. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Tim for his healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break: HSH Presentations

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I'm speaking with Tim Estes, the CEO and founder of Angel Q. Tim, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Tim Estes (48:48):

Um, it's a recent one. Okay. What I've realized is as my own busyness has gone up, and I'll, I'll speak from a lot of dads out there. Um, I think a lot of us dads are not great models for our kids because we're on our phones too much. We think about it from the standpoint of always being connected to work or available. And the more senior we are, the more we feel like we have to be responsible to that. Um, and what our kids see is our kids see when we're in that mode, especially once you hit five o'clock or six o'clock and that's the window they have to see you and spend time with you. They view it as, oh, you're choosing that over them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it sits with them. And this has recently been something I've been convicted by because like I, I think that, yeah, I've, I've got this, I think relatively noble effort we're trying to build with Angel Q, but I've got a household of two great boys, and the truth is my greatest contribution in the world will probably be what those boys turn into.

Tim Estes (49:35):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and, uh, and so with that in mind, like a habit I'm trying to adopt now, uh, and, and getting more and more consistent on it is when I hit a certain time in the day, like five thirty six, I leave my phone in my office and when I'm, when they're done and they're down to bed, I can go back to the office. But creating like a space, even if it's only like an hour and a half or two hours. It's really the location of the device to create a different space mm-hmm <affirmative>. For that kind of engagement, um,

Hillary Wilkinson (50:30):

And putting people over pixels.

Tim Estes (50:32):

That's right.

Hillary Wilkinson (52:28):

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, a link to the Angel Q website. And if you're interested in giving AngelQ a try, we've set up an affiliate link for you at the time of checkout. Enter the code HSHabits and save yourself some cash. Find all of this by visiting the show notes for this episode, and you do that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Tim, thank you for being here today for all your efforts into creating a platform that can make the internet a safer space for kids.

Tim Estes (53:05):

Thank you so much, Hillary. It's been great.

S14 Trailer: AI, Chatbots, and Education

Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:05:06 GMT

"Technology is a tool, and YOU get to decide how your family will use it."

-Hillary Wilkinson

With every new school year comes a new opportunity to reassess, recalibrate, and review the technology in our homes and classrooms. On Season 14 of the podcast, we are diving deep into AI, chatbots, and more. The hot topic on the front burner for many is AI in schools and companion AI. From chatbots to writing assistance, to smart tutoring apps, to character AI, AI is showing up in homes, homework, and hallways. Let’s get into it!

Listen every Wednesday as we explore more healthy screen habits together.

This is paragraph text. Click it or hit the Manage Text button to change the font, color, size, format, and more. To set up site-wide paragraph and title styles, go to Site Theme.

S13 Episode 6: Phone Phreedom Summer!! // Dr. Nidhi Gupta

Wed, 18 Jun 2025 05:14:26 GMT

"Physically separate yourself from your devices 30-90 minutes per day."

~ Dr. Nidhi Gupta

As a board-certified pediatric endocrinologist, TEDx speaker, and a leading expert in digital wellness in Nashville, Tennessee, Dr. Nidhi Gupta is also an award-winning researcher. Her research highlights the profound impact of excessive screen time on both physical and mental health, linking it to many problems we are seeing develop, not just in childhood, but over our whole population. Issues like obesity, sleep disorders, poor communication skills, and learning deficits, all of these findings have positioned her as a trusted voice on the health consequences of digital overuse. On this episode, we discuss all of these things as well as why doing things like simply trying to put our phones down just doesn't work.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Phreedom Foundation

https://reconnect.expert/

Dr. Gupta’s TED Talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIVv55BivJU

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:03)

My guest today is a board-certified pediatric endocrinologist, TEDx speaker, and a leading expert in digital wellness in Nashville, Tennessee. She is also an award-winning researcher. Her research highlights the profound impact of excessive screen time on both physical and mental health, linking it to many problems we are seeing develop, not just in childhood, but over our whole population. I'm talking about things like obesity, sleep disorders, poor communication skills, learning deficits. All of these findings have positioned her as a trusted voice on the health consequences of digital overuse. And today, we are going to learn why doing things like simply trying to put our phones down just doesn't necessarily work. Thank you for being here today, Dr. Nidhi Gupta!.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (01:06)

Thank you so much, Hillary. Thank you for having me on your show.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:10)

I'm so glad you're here. Dr. Gupta, how did you come to focus so much of your professional work on digital wellness?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (01:19)

Hillary, about three years ago, I left my dream job at a major hospital here in Tennessee to focus my attention on what I was seeing as an epidemic of screen time-related side effects in my patients. As a pediatrician working with families closely, I'm seeing firsthand the impact of excessive tech use, not just on their physical health, but on their mental health. Let me share a few patient stories that drove me away from my dream job, Hillary. Riley is a 17-year-old young lady. She developed a bedsore in her lower back from being sedentary for hours after school. Immersed in her virtual reality world. Jose is 11. He is up late into the night watching YouTube shorts and reels during which time he's snacking mindlessly and gaining an enormous amount of weight. I recently saw Allison, she is 15. She spends about 40 to 45-ish hours on her phone every day, every week, mostly on social media.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (02:25)

And she shrugs her shoulder and she's like, what's a big deal? My friend spend way more time than that. I don't doubt her. I think she's right, but she is developing signs of eating disorder, and she is in denial. And finally, Gary, his parents over this last Christmas break, took away his video gaming equipment because they were done with his eight hours of video gaming every day. They were not prepared for the withdrawal symptoms that followed Hillary. These are just four cases from one small town in Tennessee. And while these might seem to be extreme cases, the concern is elevating in families across the nation at this time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:07)

I, I recognize all of those things. You have this interesting kind of, uh, concept of a habit loop that your organization, Phreedom Foundation, works to help disrupt. And can you tell us more about this habit loop and how even how you recommend how people break it?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (03:42)

So, Habit Loop is a concept that I cannot take credit for. Thinking of Hillary. First off, this is the, the first time I heard about Habit Loop was in the book Atomic Habits by James Weir. I borrowed that concept to see how that applies to our interaction with our smart devices. So now I have renamed to use it for wireless mobile devices, and I call it the trigger loop of wireless mobile devices. What drives the trigger loop is dopamine, a sneaky neurotransmitter. It's a little juice that is skirted in the brain in response to any reward related cue. Reward related cue, think sugar. Mm, salt, fat spice, think notification. Every time there is a notification on our smart device, the brain squirts that dopamine that makes us crave, what is it? What did I get? What did I get? What did I get? So that cue of notification leads to craving.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (04:41)

That craving makes us reach for our device, and it has become an automatic robotics sub condition response. We are not even thinking about it. Every time there is a notification, we are going through the craving, getting the response, reaching for the device. And the final step in the habit loop is reward. We find a reward waiting for us in a very smart device. What might that reward be? It could be a new, like a new post, a new follower, a new comment. And our brain likes rewards. So every time there is a reward, we are waiting for the next queue. Every time there is a queue, we can't wait to get to the next reward. And we find ourselves stuck in this trigger loop of wireless mobile devices. Now Hilary, things have gotten so bad that even if there is no notification on our devices, we still check mm-hmm just in case we missed something that's fomo, the fear of missing out.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (05:40)

And we refresh our screens to see if we missed something. And social media never disappoints. There is always something new to be seen. We keep refreshing and when we do see something new, then our brain tells us, “See, you should have checked sooner. There was something waiting for you. Why did you wait three minutes to check the trigger loop of wireless mobile devices?” Now, how do we disrupt it? There are several ways to disrupt it. Number one, delete the queue, the queue of notifications. Number two, curb the craving of the dopamine. Be intentional in your each and every interaction with your device. Number three, weaken the response. We've got to put our devices out of sight, out of mind when we need to focus on work, on family, on kids, on driving. And finally dull the reward. We've got to make our devices boring and enticing. Now, there are several ways to do all of this, and my book is coming out this summer in which I outline in great detail how to break each of these four steps of the trigger loop.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:49)

Very nice. So when we're talking about tech overuse, like you shared the stories of your patients earlier, even when we're talking to parents about it, many times people tend to be reticent or they're really not comfortable to link the phrase with addiction. And you are quite an expert in this. I have been corrected in the past by referring to something as an addiction. And people have said, ah, I don't like to bring the “A” word into it and this, so I, I just thought I'd take this opportunity to ask you, do you think it is overstepping the mark to call these behaviors that you're seeing of tech overuse an addiction?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (07:39)

Not at all. We are not overstepping by calling what we are seeing in our relationship with our devices and addiction. And I, I hear you Hillary. When I started my journey with Phreedom Foundation several years ago, I received similar feedback. Let's not call it an addiction. Let's, let's use a different word. Let's call it dependency, let's call it something else. And I, I, I could see that in the beginning. But now over the last few years with the way things have shaped up, there is no reason to not call these behaviors addiction. Why this statement might seem strong. But everything that I say is backed by research. So based on research, we have now identified several similarities between substance addiction and cell phone addiction. Okay. So let me highlight three similarities between substance addiction and cell phone addiction that might help us accept the usage of the word addiction in the context of smart devices. So the number one similarity is dangerous use in prohibited settings. Someone who has a problematic substance use disorder often tends to use it in dangerous situations when it comes to smartphones. Someone who has a problematic smartphone use disorder often tends to use it in dangerous and prohibited context, such as driving. Mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:10)

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (09:11)

Walking upstairs or going downstairs or riding in the escalator. Dangerous use. Even though they know the short term and the long term harm of doing that, it's hard for them to stop. So if we are unable to stop our craving to do something, that itself is the bottom line definition of addiction. The second similarity: abandonment of usual activities. Someone who might have a substance use disorder often tends to abandon their usual activities. Their entire attention is focused on getting the substance, using it, recovering from the effect of the substance, and then trying to figure out where to get the substance again. Mm-hmm . When it comes to smartphone use, someone who might have an addiction to their smart devices tends to lose interest in everything else. Everything else is boring. It is not as stimulating enough as the content from the devices. And finally, last symptom withdrawal symptoms.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (10:18)

We know what withdrawal symptoms look like for, for someone who might have a substance use disorder, what do withdrawal symptoms look like from smartphones? Irritability, anxiety. Mm-hmm . Right? Uneasiness. If we forget our phone inside the house and we are already in the car, we can't go. We've got to get it there. We are attached over devices. We feel anxious when we are not around them. So all that to say no, we are not overstepping by calling a digital addiction what it means to be called. Because what we are seeing in real life, what I'm seeing with my patients on a day-to-day basis, there is no other way to describe it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:59)

I can't tell you how validated I feel. . So, so thank you,

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (11:07)

You're welcome. Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:08)

'cause I felt a little gaslit…. I gotta tell ya. . Okay. We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about how to set up a series of strategies to un-grip devices so we can grip life.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Dr. Gupta who founded the Phreedom Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to inspiring individuals to reclaim their time and attention, unlocking the joys of life beyond screens. And I just wanna point out, if you're going to look it up, I'm gonna point out the spelling of Freedom Foundation. Freedom is spelled with a P, which is this playful twist on the words freedom and phone. The, the f sound there. If we're going into phonemic awareness , anyways, their mission isn't to give up our smartphones completely. Instead, it's about finding freedom by using our devices more mindfully so they enhance our lives without taking over. And before the break, you did a beautiful job outlining tech overuse as well as some of the consequences that you see in your practice. And can we now kind of dive into the concept of transforming mindsets from the escape de place zone to engaging and replacing?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (12:54)

Absolutely. Hilary, that's a theory that I came up with based on what I was seeing. Again, most of my findings are based on what I'm seeing in my clinic. So if given a choice, what would one attend to pick, if we had the option between preparing a PowerPoint presentation versus, let me just scroll social media for a little bit, right? Another example could be exercising at the end of the day versus curling up on the couch because we are so tired, right? So our smart devices are so readily available to help us escape from boring, mundane stress of real life. They help us escape from anxiety, from conflict. And in that unintentional attempt to escape from uneasy situations, we might have displaced some very essential activities in our daily life. Such as sleeping, exercising, media, free family time, schoolwork, office work, focus, driving. How does all of this translate into outcomes?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (14:04)

We end up dealing with obesity, sleep disorders, fatigue, mental health, relationship issues, broken families, upward social comparison. What is upward social comparison? Comparing ourselves with everybody else on social media, how their perfect lives. Their perfect bodies seem so much better than anything that we could ever have. It sends us down a spiral of unhealthy mental health patterns. It's important for us to acknowledge that we might be using our devices to escape for stress, anxiety, and boredom. In that process, we are displacing essential activities. What do we need to do instead of escaping? Be mindful and engage with the task and the person in front of you. We've got to do some brain talk here. We've got to tell our mind, you know what, I just checked my phone 15 minutes ago and I'm sure nothing new has changed in the news or in the weather or social media. So I can put my device down and I can actually focus and engage on the task in front of me. The activities that I might have displaced, like exercise and sleep and family time. We need to replace them back into our daily routine. That's the theory of escape displace. To engage, replace.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:29)

Love it. Love it all. Yes. It speaks directly to our core habit number four, which is to ask, what's my purpose every time you pick up your device. So ask, what's my purpose and how long will it take? So we are rapidly headed into our summer months, right? And so many times, this is when the cry for social media from our teens becomes the loudest . And I, I get it, I get it. People are traveling, friends are separated. It, it becomes a big thing. We strongly stand and recommend holding off on teen personal social media accounts until 16. But are there mistakes that you have seen that you could help people avoid when parenting in the social media age?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (16:25)

One of the biggest mistakes, Hillary, that I have seen made in this context, and it's not an intentional mistake. It's coming from a blind spot that we are not aware of. And that is expecting our young people to exercise the force of their willpower to get off social media. Mm-hmm . It does not work. Mm-hmm . Willpower does not work. And why does it not work? Because willpower comes from a part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. It's right here in the front of the brain. That prefrontal cortex helps us with self-control and self-discipline. It's only 50% developed by the time we are 18 and about fully developed by the time we are in our mid twenties. So expecting a 12 or a 13-year-old child to be able to use the force of their willpower to get off addictive content does not, does not work. The other unintentional mistake that I've seen in this space is blaming our young people for their tech use. While we are unable to regulate our own tech use as grownups mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:34)

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (17:35)

We are setting examples for our kids. They are watching us. If we are at home in the evening after hours bent on our screens, and our kids don't have screens and they are watching us, the message that is going to their brain is that they are less important than what is in our screens. They're less interesting. Then they will throw a tantrum to get over attention. Do they have attention deficit? Of course they have attention deficit. They are, they want the attention. They're not getting it. They have attention deficit. Do they have ADHD? Well, that's a completely different story altogether. So we've got to find the time for real life human connection with our children so that they don't reach for that dopamine.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:19)

Mm-hmm . Excellent. Yes. And again, our, our organizations are completely aligned and we have tools to help families determine those limits in our free family tech plan. If you're interested, please visit the website and download that tool, customizable for your own family. So Dr. Gupta, you are amazing. You seem to be at the top of your game in all professional areas. Thank you. Plus coordinating community events like unplugged dining events at restaurants, and being incredibly active in all, just all areas. Do you have any strategies? This is totally coming from a selfish place. I, I gotta be honest with you, , I'm all healthy. Screen habits aside, how do you do this? , do you have strategies to help you achieve these levels of productivity and life balance?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (19:18)

Oh, thank you Hillary, thank you for acknowledging. It's, it's taken, um, a lot of time and efforts to get to this point where more and more people are aware of this conversation and willing to hear about this conversation. Because quite honestly, technology evolved so quickly in the last decade, Hillary, that parents like us were blindsided. Mm-hmm . Nobody asked us what is the right way to do it. We were just dished out device after device and app after app and content after content. But through organizations like yours and ours, we are finally, I think making a dent in the issue that we are dealing with. So how do I do it? Well, I have a big team, , that that keeps me organized. But personally, I practice what I preach. So I'll share with you a few things that I personally use that help me keep a grip on my time and attention, which is how then I'm able to be creative in helping other families find solutions that work for them.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (20:25)

So the first and the most important way is to turn off non-essential notifications. There are badges, there are banners, sounds, vibrations, notifications that show up on the home screen, lock screen notification center. All of that is noise. Turn off the noise, calm the digital noise, which by the way is also the name of my book, which is coming out this summer. Calm the digital noise, calm the noise. So turn off non-essential notifications so your device does not call you 500 times a day. You go to your device when you feel you need to go to your device so that you have control on yourself instead of your device controlling you. Number two, we are an analog wristwatch, not a smartwatch, an analog wristwatch and use an old fashioned alarm clock to set your alarm instead of being dependent on your smartphone as an alarm. And there are reasons why we are doing all of this, why I am recommending all of this. And today we probably do not have the time to go into all of that science behind it, but I'm happy to have that conversation in more detail another time. The third, um, recommendation is delete time consuming applications and content from your devices and from your kids' devices. And that would include video gaming apps, social media apps, news apps, things that are soul sucking and time consuming, things that are not nurturing you, things that are not uplifting you. You, I would highly recommend getting rid of those. And fourth, embrace boredom.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:07)

Mm-hmm .

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (22:09)

It's okay to be bored. That's where creativity and focus thrive.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:15)

Excellent. Well, I have some bad news for me, and that's that even with those things in place at my house, I don't seem to have the level of productivity of yourself except, except the team part. Maybe I just need to, maybe I need to outsource a few things here.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (22:34)

Or maybe you and your, you should come attend one of our workshops, a tweet your tech workshops. This is our most favorite and most, uh, asked for workshop. After that workshop. People do not feel that they have a relationship with their devices anymore. They feel free.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:50)

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Free keeping their tech as a tool, not as that emotional safety, security blanket. Yeah.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (22:58)

Not as escape, not as entertainment, not as distraction. Using our devices as tools and only as tools, because guess what? That is what they were originally designed to be.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:09)

Exactly. Originally being the operative word. Okay. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Gupta for her healthy screen habit.

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I am speaking with Dr. Gupta, who is creating a healthier, more connected world through education, advocacy, and practical solutions. Now on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (23:53)

The biggest one that has made a big difference to how I view digital wellness, not just for everyone else, but for me and my family, is this, physically separating yourself from your devices for at least 30 to 90 minutes every day. Not in your pockets, not in your hands, not in your backpacks. Separated physically. Cutting the cord for at least 30 to 90 minutes every day reduces our dependency and our need to always be connected, to always be on. That gives our brain a time to reset. And in that time we find efficiency, productivity, and joy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:42)

I can't, I love it and I can't agree with you more. I, um, got into the habit of when I, I have a, um, beloved black Labrador whom I walk every day. And I used to listen to podcasts while I was doing our, our walk, and I thought, you know, I don't think I'm getting the most out of this activity by continuing input during this time. Like, I really wanted instead to see the seasonal changes around me and connect with my environment and just, you know, spend some time deep breathing in nature and all of that. And so I have stopped taking my phone with me out on my walks and I can't tell you, it has become, it's like I can feel my neurons just like stretching during that time, because I feel so much more creative and just refreshed when we come back. So I, I can't, I cannot recommend that tip enough. I thank you for bringing it to the forefront.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (25:52)

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:54)

Yes. So that is a wrap both on this episode and on season 13. As always, healthy screen habits will be going on hiatus during the summer months to spend time connecting with our own families and creating space to enjoy with each other. You can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to the Phreedom Foundation website by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. I'm also going to recommend that if you are looking for a Fun Family Summertime project, I could not recommend more. The Healthy Screen Habits for Tweens and Teens Workbook 14.99 on Amazon. You can get it there. . Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for being here today and for empowering lives. One family, one screen at a time, and I mean, that's, that's how we're all making progress.

Dr. Nidhi Gupta: (27:00)

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure being on your show today.

S13 Episode 6: How To Start Saving the World... Or At Least Your Neighborhood!//Matt Pulley

Wed, 11 Jun 2025 23:54:26 GMT

"The technology we're building and deploying out into the world is not, um, in alignment with what we want as parents for our kids."

-Matt Pulley

Parents aren’t just worried - they are ready to act. Four Norms empowers local parent groups to get things done through the use of collective action. It’s never been easier to fight for new norms around kids and technology that you want to see in your community. Four Norms acts as a bridge between organizational expertise and community impact. Specifically designed for grassroots parents' organizations, Four Norms makes stepping into activism as easy as meeting friends for coffee (so you can save/change the world!).

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Information:

https://www.fournorms.com/

Resources Mentioned

Book:

The Anxious Generation b y Jonathan Haidt

Organization:

Screentime Action Network

https://screentimenetwork.org

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today found himself deeply concerned about the tech industry's impact on children and youth. This perspective shift led him to redirect his entrepreneurial focus towards working with other technologists, parents, and youth to promote the responsible development of technology that benefits society. So he's created space for parents to find one another and work together on this wild ride of digital parenting, and I'm hoping he's gonna help us along the path! Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Matt Pulley.

Matt Pulley: (00:46)

Hi Hillary. Uh, thanks for having me on. Excited to talk with you today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:51)

Matt, you are a dad of two and clearly a guy who loves a challenge. What led you to getting started in this kind of digital wellness pond?

Matt Pulley: (01:07)

Yeah, so my, my background is, is in technology. So I'm a technologist. I've spent my career almost 25 years now, software engineer, turned tech entrepreneur. So I've, I've been a coder, I've developed in large scale systems and then, you know, for the last decade plus, um, been, uh, as an entrepreneur and building, building products and organizations from the ground up. Um, and so that experience, uh, it was a lot of fun. Um, during that 10, those, the last 20 years, um, you know, I've, I've seen our field of technology and, and in particular web and mobile development, um, shift and change.

Matt Pulley: (02:05)

Um, just kind of, uh, fa fast forward to, um, the, a few years ago I was able to take some time off to be a stay at home dad, which was a fantastic experience. I have two daughters. And, um, during that time, I, I challenged myself to just be that dad and kind of put my tech business mind away for a little bit. Um, but what the effect of that was, was thinking a lot about the what, um, the impact that technology is having on society and our kids. As I spent a lot of time, you know, at the playground and with, with other parents, and I, you know, the, those two things come, toge came together, uh, becoming a dad and, you know, taking a little bit of a break from my, my technology background to say, you know, I had this sort of “uh oh moment” where I realized that my field of technologists, um, which I love, and I've, I've spent a lot of great time with a lot of great people.

Matt Pulley: (03:06)

Uh, but, but really felt that the technology we're building and deploying out into the world is not, um, you know, in alignment with what I think is, is, um, what we want as parents for our kids, and especially social media and, and algorithm driven, um, apps like YouTube and even video games. And I, I just sort of had, you know, this thought of, wow, like, um, we, we really need to stop this train pretty quickly. And I wanted to dedicate, uh, I didn't want to exit the tech field, but, but, um, opposite that, I wanted to dedicate the rest of my time to figuring out how we can help solve these problems, both for parents, um, and for, for adults, for kids. And through working with my fellow technologists so that we can, um, be a little bit more, uh, purposeful and deliberate about how we build and deploy, um, apps and, and websites, um, and platforms directed di especially those directed at our kids.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:10)

Well, I like the, I like the thought and intention behind it because that kind of flies in the face of the move fast and break things, you know, which the Silicon Valley creed that we've heard for years. And unfortunately, the things that we're seeing broken are our children. So I appreciate you having that, that alternate view. And you've created this platform called the, called Four Norms. Mm-hmm . And this is based off of Jonathan Haidt’s, introduced concept of instating four norms for childhood and his wildly acclaimed book, The Anxious Generation mm-hmm . And, um, first, right off the bat, I, I see on your website you refer people to Anxious Generation mm-hmm . But I, on their platform, I don't see four norms listed as one of their partnering organizations. So do you work with him or are you independent? Just so we're clear right off the bat.

Matt Pulley: (05:08)

Yeah. In Independent, um, would love to get, you know, on that list, I have a lot of admiration for not only Dr. Haidt, um, and the anxious generation team, but many of the organizations listed on there. Um, I'm the chair of, of the Screens and Schools group at the Screen Time Action Network and Fair Play, which is listed on there. And, you know, clearly, uh, the name, you know, uh, it's pretty clear that that that was the inspiration. Um, and I think what was, you know, not only the inspiration of that work, but what, what I loved about it, there's two things I loved about it, and one of those is that it gave us all this shared language for us to use to talk about this. Mm-hmm . Uh, I know you all have been doing this for a long time, and you, you've been talking about this and, and using probably language, you know, pre-anxious generation about what, you know, the impact it's having on our development of our kids and a healthy childhood.

Matt Pulley: (06:05)

But the idea that the second thing that was, that was really inspiring was that the idea that we don't have to wait for, uh, government to, to pass laws for regulations for mm-hmm . For rules of any type that we have. We do have the power to change the community norms around us at our, at our really hyper-local communities, whether it be just our schools, our towns, and at the state level as well. And I thought that was really inspiring. That's, that felt like something that we could do today. And I think that was the, the purpose of that is to say there's a lot out of our control. Like I said, as with my background technology, I spent a lot of time thinking about what we're doing in the global and, um, and, and how we're, we, technologists are building things, but the thing that we can do in our own communities, in our own homes tomorrow, um, are these, these, uh, um, creating new community norms around us and, and linking up with other people to do the same mm-hmm . And I just thought that was really inspiring to, uh, and in terms of and action that we can do today, tomorrow.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:12)

Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think, um, you know, when KOSA did not get passed, that was the Kids Online Safety Act, which had bipartisan support, but did not get passed at the end of last year, 2024. That honestly, I mean, that, that took me a few days to recover from Matt. I was, I mean, we had worked so hard on that. I feel like everyone in digital wellness just felt like, what? You know, and then, and then it, like I said, it took me a few days and then I, like you, kind of had a whole like aha reframing moment of, no, no, I can't count on the government to put rules into place to raise my children with our values. Like, no, this is actually, grassroots is where this belongs, it's where it's where we have to come together and build communities and support families. And so it really, like I said, it kind of, it was, you know, I kind of had this vision of, you know, when you put like, um, you say like you have a campfire and maybe you like put a bunch of tinder on it and it, the fire dies down for a minute, but then it comes back stronger than ever. So that's what it did for me. Mm-hmm . .

Matt Pulley: (08:34)

So yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, I, the, that local grassroots level, I think is where real change happens. Yeah. And not only, not only the concept of not waiting for that top down, you know, regulation, but, but just getting started at that grassroots level, what you can do in your home, in your community, in your neighborhood, uh, um, I think that's, that's where it's at. I think it's really inspiring.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:56)

Yeah. Yeah. So let's dive into those four norms. Like, can you, can you outline for us, just in the event we've got, I'm sure we've got people who have maybe heard about the book, but they haven't quite read it yet or heard about four norms. But could you dive into the four norms, like what they are and what they look like?

Matt Pulley: (09:16)

Yeah. Uh, broadly, you know, the four new foundational norms, um, are to delay smartphones for our kids till high school, uh, delay social media until 16 or high school, um, phone-free schools. And, you know, the, the idea that personal devices should not be in school, and this, by the way, I think a thing behind that is that, um, that gives parents a way to talk about this. Should your phone, should your school go phone-free? Um, it is a great way for the school to, to use its authority to say, “Hey, these, these things are distracting. It's a distraction for our education and learning.” And that gives parents a way to talk about that in their own home with their, with their kids. The opposite of that is happening today, where these are allowed in school. So what can parents do? What can parents say to their kids, to their 8, 9, 10-year-olds who are asking about it when it is allowed in school?

Matt Pulley: (10:25)

And then, you know, so helping parents out, I think is is what the phone free, not only will it create a distraction-free learning environment, I think it will really help the conversations that are having in the home with parents. Um, and then the last thing is more independence, free play and responsibility in real, in the real world. This fourth norm of, of more independence and free, free play is what we should be doing with our kids. And, um, and, and, and how they develop, uh, and, uh, in a healthy way. Things like autonomy, agency, really what add up to what is their offline identity. And it's, you know, it's really that offline identity, um, which, which we can come back to in a little bit. Um, that, that helps, that will help them as they grow getting into middle school and high school and adulthood, that will help them navigate the digital world as well as the offline world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:38)

Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, the, the experience of those, of having those independent moments and decision-making times and all of those things, they're all skill-building. So it's all competence building, which builds confidence, which then insulates against isolation and depression. I kind of like to spell that out because I don't know that everybody goes, oh, I can let my kid go, you know, run a quick errand at the store for me. And they don't, it, it doesn't translate down the, down the pike for them of what mm-hmm . What all of the experience building is happening.

Matt Pulley: (12:24)

That's right. And if I could say one more thing, I'll put on my technologist hat and say the, one of the reasons why, from my perspective, from a technologist perspective, that this is important. One of the common rebuttals that we might get from a school for being phone-free, or even parents that say, “Hey, you know, it's a digital world out there. We really need to teach our kids how to use these.” And while that will be true, when they're emotionally ready, they're from a technologist standpoint, I've been hiring, uh, software engineers for over 20 years. And I can tell you for sure the difference between hiring a good technical person and a not good technical person has nothing to do with their technical skills and everything to do with, uh, their critical thinking and their emotional regulation, their ability to deliver value and, and be a team member.

Matt Pulley: (13:17)

Um, and so I always like to point that out as someone who hires technologists to say, look, they will pick up, they will understand later how to use a device, how to code, how to design, how to be creative, whatever they're into, that will come, we know our kids can pick this, these things up easily, but what we want to have happen in order to give them a great, um, adulthood as they grow through adolescence, is to develop that that executive functioning so that they can be, uh, u utilize those technical skills in a, in a pro professional way.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:52)

I totally agree with you. And, and to recognize that human beings have evolved to have windows of sensitivity, and they're mm-hmm . In the child development process where those neurons are working, they're firing together, and they're wiring together to do all of those things. Like read facial expressions, understand what a communication delay might mean, have empathy, all of those things. Mm-hmm . So we are actually suppressing nature. It's, uh, Jean Rogers, who's the director of Screen Time Action Network, uh, has a saying. She says, “Technology changes, child development does not.” mm-hmm . And I, I love that because it's so true. Right?

Matt Pulley: (14:38)

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:39)

Awesome. So when we come back, let's talk more about the challenges that parents are facing with achieving this goal of collective action and how four norms can help them out.

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I am speaking with Matt Pulley from Four Norms, an organization whose mission is to empower parents to reclaim their agency over how technology shapes childhood by providing simple tools that transform individual concern into collective action. So one of the things that I really like about your website, Matt, is that you have kind of blog posts, and one of the things featured on them is something that you call the algorithm neutral zone and pitfalls associated with that. And we hear so much about algorithmic push and I mean, algorithm is just a word that's all over the news right now, but I'd never heard about this neutral zone. So could, could you kind of flush that out for us?

Matt Pulley: (16:55)

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I, it probably needs a better label. The branding on that is not the , but what I mean by the algorithm neutral zone, let me kind of go through it a little bit. So, as I mentioned, I, I started to think about how technology is affect is affecting our kids and thus our parents. And in my entrepreneurial experience, you know, we do things like develop personas we think about who our, our customers and our users are going to be and where they are and how they think and what their behavior is. And I needed a way to think about if, if this is true, that this is affecting parents, how can I think about what this means to parents and where they are? And it overlapped a little bit. And, and this is, this is backed up by, uh, you know, Jonathan Haidt.

Matt Pulley: (17:44)

Through the anxious generation and his, um, Substack after Battle has put the, has put together a timeline of when algorithms really took over social media platforms and thus started to take over our lives in various ways. As we think about today, uh, the way we all consume our news is very algorithm-driven and, uh, many other things as well. And there's this moment in history and it, and backed up by this timeline, it's around 2012 when, when, uh, the Facebook feed, um, after they bought Instagram and a host of other things where, where the combination of, uh, algorithm driven platforms and, um, the ubiquity of mobile phones in everyone's pocket, including younger and younger, as that started getting younger and younger, around that 2012 timeframe is, is where that sort of threshold happened. And since then, the algorithm neutral zone theory is that states that, you know, since then, the, that algorithms have become a, a central part of our society, meaning that it drives our news and drives our information system and many other things.

Matt Pulley: (18:58)

And so with that as the premise of, of when and how that happened, um, there's this concept by a guy named William Bridges, um, who is, who developed a theory of change called, um, the Neutral Zone, which is, um, the difference between the idea of a change. The change is when the event happens, for example, if you, uh, take a new job day, day one is the day that change happened, but you go through this transition of transitioning into this new role, which could take months, and it's that transition that is really an emotional and psychological transition. So when we think about change, we don't think about that today a change happened, and tomorrow everything is totally different. There's this neutral zone. And what, what it describes is, um, what's key about the neutral zone is that once this change occurs, it takes some time to figure out and emotionally and psychologically move through how to operate in this new normal.

Matt Pulley: (20:03)

And so coming back to that threshold where algorithms took over everything in our society, the idea is that there are people, and these are, I'm talking about adults, parents and adults alike, um, that have, some of us have moved through there and said, yes, I'm, I'm really aware of how tech, uh, algorithms have, um, changed our lives. And now we can make decisions about how deliberate and intentional we can be with that. But there's, there are a lot of us, and this is where many parents find, uh, find ourselves, um, with just in that neutral zone and kind of have, we think about the internet as the original days where we had the, where we had email and where we had, you know, the original days of Facebook where you had to navigate to your friend's wall and post something on there, but those platforms don't behave that way anymore.

Matt Pulley: (20:53)

Mm-hmm . And this is pre-feed and things like that. And so, um, to, to visualize, I wanted to visualize where parents are in this process so I developed some buckets of, of where people are, some folks are kind of all the way through and say, I understand how, how the technology's impacting me, and I wanna be really intentional and deliberate about how I, how I do that in my own life and in my parenting, um, abilities as well. And then there are some folks, um, who are still trying to figure that out. They're still trying to figure out, is the internet the same as I saw it? What are my kids experiencing when they, you know, go online, whether it's YouTube or Instagram or whatever. Um, and so the, the idea is understanding where parents are in this journey can help us, um, think through how we help them, how we meet them, where they are, and the sort of actions and interventions we want to take to help them move through and get to that ideal state of being very deliberate and purposeful about how you integrate technology in your own life and your family's life, um, so that you can, you know, apply your own values to make sure that tech is serving you and not the other way around.

Matt Pulley: (22:16)

That you're, that, that, that, that you're just serving the tech and you're sort of like, you know, um, this is what we call doom scrolling. And, and you know, when hours go by and you're like, what was I doing? Yeah. And so this gives us a little bit, again, I think it needs some branding because , because I'm not, I'm not sure those, the, the, the best terms for, um, to put out there, but it, it was sort of like a thing that kind of was percolating in my mind in terms of how to find where parents are and meet them where they are. Um, and so I kind of like put it down on paper.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:48)

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you bring up that year 2012 specifically, because when you look at most mental health data in the US it 2012 is mm-hmm . Where you start seeing what they call those hockey sticks, you know? Yeah. Where the, the data just starts jumping up in terms of self-harm, in terms of, so, uh, suicidal ideation and everything else. So it's when, whenever anybody starts talking about, oh, right around 2012, I always go, Hmm, what else here? So, yeah. Very interesting. Your program really focuses on bringing parents together when, when doing this thing called collective action, which is so, uh, needed and wonderful. Mm-hmm . Because, um, you know, I think of like, it's like trying to light a fire in a rainstorm. It's really mm-hmm . Hard to do without others helping you , right? Yeah. Shelter your little campfire. And for a long time there have been, you know, people have been really impassioned about digital wellness, but we've been the solo voice in the crowd and really unpopular. And so I am so grateful that books like Anxious Generation and organizations like yourself that have come about, and it's, but this whole concept of building community is so important when you're trying to enact social change. How can people find like-minded others when they visit your website?

Matt Pulley: (24:32)

Yeah. You know, the, the idea of collective action, um, you know, Dr. Haidt and many others, the after talking through these things, you know, the common, um, way out, uh, correctly, I believe is to link arms and take collective action, and one that is great. And I, I love that, but there is a little bit missing, I think, which is, okay, how do I do that? Mm-hmm . What am I supposed to do? What's the first step I'm supposed to take? And that's what, that's what I'm hoping to solve here with a platform, uh, with my platform, Four Norms, is we understand that, okay, I, I understand what's happening, taking collective action. I need to find like-minded people, and I need to, and that can be three, four, or five. It doesn't have to be a, you know, 50. And I wanna start taking action with them.

Matt Pulley: (25:24)

And so, um, what, through my work with the Screen Time Action Network and, and other groups, what I notice is that these groups and these little, um, pods of people exist in real life everywhere mm-hmm . Um, and I wanted to, I really wanted to give those people tools to, uh, remove sort of a barrier to entry, um, to, to not have to fiddle with like the tools and just start, um, you know, clicking buttons and like take action and go, uh, to oversimplify it, you know? And, um, and so what I, what I hope to do, um, is take, take these IRL groups of parents that exist and have been kind of talking formally or informally, and give them away to jump on and start working together. Um, putting all their resources in one place, putting all their communication in one place, um, even putting up their, their parent pledges or parent pacts and collecting signatures and collecting, you know, the ability, um, to, to, you know, send out a link and say, here we're collecting signatures, and once you do, you're in our group and you will, you'll be notified with all of this stuff.

Matt Pulley: (26:39)

We're with X, Y, Z school, you know? Mm-hmm . And so there's a little bit of, um, it's not quite a, not quite a full kind of discover everyone around you. What I hope to do is take the, the three or five people who are actively talking about this and give them sort of that one link to send out to the other hundreds of parents in your school or in your community and say, here, we're using this plat, this platform to organize, jump on board with us. We'll continue the discussion. And you can see, you can see our petition here, you can see our presentation we gave to the principal here. And, um, this is one spot for us to organize the way we're thinking about, um, the way we're thinking about taking action. And there's also a concept of playbooks on there. So we have a playbook for how to create a, a, a parent pact and a playbook for phone-free schools.

Matt Pulley: (27:32)

And these are all based on best practices that exist out there, 'cause there's a lot of great organizations doing these kinds of things. So what we hope to create is, uh, once you have that, uh, your core group of parents on here, point and click, and here's the playbook. Here's how to, here's a copy and paste on how to send an invite out to the rest of your group. Here's, once you're ready, here's a copy and paste on that letter to send your school admin, your principal. And here is a way for you to post and collect signatures for your parent pact, for your, for your form letter petition and those kind of things.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:17)

Yeah. No, I think that's so helpful because I feel like it's, it's daunting to think of having to create all of that for every community, to not have to reinvent the, the wheel, just have a template that they can kind of put in place and tweak to their likings. I think that's, that's a huge difference than just, um, you know, feeling like I'm a parent and I want things to change and I, and I know what I need to do. But, you know, let's be honest, we are all, you know, holding jobs, running sports practices. Yeah, that's right. Cooking dinner, doing all of that. So you've kind of removed that barrier for entry. And I think it's, I think it's fabulous, which it all, all of it speaks to healthy screen habits, if you will, and media savviness, and it all helps build a healthy community. Yeah. So we have to take one more short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Matt for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (29:32)

I'm speaking with Matt Pulley, a technologist, entrepreneur and parent of two who after taking time as a stay-at-home dad, found himself deeply concerned about the tech industry's impact on kids. So, Matt, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own homes. What's yours?

Matt Pulley: (30:03)

Great question. I, I really, I've thought about this a lot, I really think that the most impactful, uh, influential and controllable thing that parents can do in their own home is the modeling, uh, that we can do of our own behavior and our own habits for our kids. I think when, when you think about what you're, when, when you're at the playground, at soccer practice, at the games, our kids notice, you know, how what we're doing if we're always on our phone, or even if we always have that in our hand and carrying it with us, they notice that and over, they may not say anything. They may not be able to say anything about it, but over time, and as they get into their tween years and teen years, I really believe that that modeling will show up.

Matt Pulley: (30:53)

And so in this world of, you know, uh, big tech, and boy, it seems hard to, there's not much we can do about that. Um, I really feel like it's, it is very much in our control in how we model and what we do in our own homes and in front of our own kids. And I think that will be the most influential thing, um, that you can set screen time rules, parental controls and that kind of thing. But I really believe that the most influential thing is, is the modeling. And I wanted to share, um, the, one of my favorite quotes by the author James Baldwin, um, who says, “Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them.” And I love that quote because it just shows we know this as parents, that our kids will imitate us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:39)

Yes. Often at times when we really don't want them to

Matt Pulley: (31:42)

Yeah, exactly. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:44)

There's, it's a rare parent that hasn't had the “Huh, didn't know you were watching that!” mode.

Matt Pulley: (31:50)

Yeah. Or repeating things that they overheard us say, whoops. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:54)

Exactly. Exactly. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this episode as well as a link to Four Norms in the show notes. You do this by going to it's healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Matt, thank you so much for being here today and for all of your work in the world to build community through collective action.

Matt Pulley: (32:38)

Thank you so much, Hillary. I really enjoyed the conversation.

S13 Episode 5: BridgeCamp: A Summer Camp for Family Connections // Dan & Dave Gray

Wed, 04 Jun 2025 07:00:00 GMT

"I reflected a lot upon my own relationship with my dad, remembering the lessons that I received from him…"

~Dan Gray, BridgeCamp Co-founder

Dan and Dave Gray are the father-son co-founders of BridgeCamp. On this episode we talk about the power of human and relational connection, particularly between parents and their kids. The stronger the connection is between parents and their teens, the more likely the teen will make better and healthier life decisions, especially as they transition into adulthood. Dan and Dave help create oppotunities for connection with BridgeCamp - a unique experience that brings parents and teens together. Want to go to summercamp and come home with a happier, healthier family life? Learn how by listening now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.bridgecamp.com/

Resources Mentioned:

https://www.elizabethsmartfoundation.org/smart-defense

https://discovernac.org/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

As promised, with Season 13, I am here to deliver tools and strategies to help your summer resonate with success. Now, our mission at Healthy Screen Habits is to educate and empower families to create their healthiest screen habits while maintaining technology as a tool, never a replacement for human connection. And as it turns out, one of the greatest ways to do this is by not only spending time with your child, but combining it with another type of experience. And this is where my guests today thrive as the father-son, co-founders of Bridge Camp. They believe in the power of human and relational connection, particularly between parents and their kids. The belief is that the stronger the connection is between their parents and their teens, the more likely the teen will make better and healthier life decisions, especially as they transition into adulthood. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Dan and Dave Gray!

Dan & Dave Gray: (01:17)

Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:20)

So I hear camp and particularly something like Bridge Camp, and I think adventure and every good adventure story has a great story of origin, kind of a, where it all began. And I think that's a great place to start. What's yours?

Dan & Dave Gray: (01:45)

Well, thank you, Hillary. This is Dan. I'm the dad of the duo here, and it's a real pleasure to be here with you, by the way. And thanks for having us. Uh, the story is pretty long, and so I'll try to really condense it very quickly for you. Um, I'm, I'm a therapist. I'm an LCSW. Been treating individuals and families and couples. And so, over the many years that I've been doing this, I have noticed real patterns with the men in particular that I've worked with, that the origins of their story goes way back into their childhood and teen years and difficulties that they had really connecting with their parents, where they didn't get much guidance and direction as to how to navigate the world of, uh, the internet and the exposure that they had to pornography at a very early age.

Dan & Dave Gray: (03:02)

And then also developing healthy views of sexuality. Mm-hmm . And so they go through their teens and then into their adult life with real struggles, and then find themselves into that world of addiction when it relates to those sexual issues. And that's where they then would come to me, and then we'd have to sort through all of this and those consistent patterns that I saw made me really believe and see that we needed to help our families, help our children and our parents connect so that they can establish a pattern, again, of then, uh, relationship issues where they are able to listen to each other, learn so that the parents could be mentors to their kids rather than obstacles to their development. And then I reflected a lot upon my own relationship with my dad, remembering the lessons that I received from him. And the things that I remember are not the times that he sat down with me in a living room or in a car and talked to me.

Dan & Dave Gray: (04:10)

It was while we were engaged in activities mm-hmm . We were fishing, or we were boxing, or we were throwing ball in the backyard. And it's the things that he taught me while we were engaged together, doing things that I liked to do, where I sensed that he wanted to be with me, and I was much more open to his guidance and counsel. And so then, uh, I, I have three sons, um, and reflected on my relationship with them, Dave being my oldest son here, and, uh, being able to see really what worked and what didn't work. I wasn't a perfect parent, that we tried to create those connecting times for adventure, being out in the outdoors, um, doing those things that they like to do, serving together, uh, going together and, uh, mowing grandma and grandpa's lawns, uh, doing those things that are help, you know, helping in the community.

Dan & Dave Gray: (05:09)

And it set a pattern that I saw that I had then a dream to someday day be able to structure a program which led us to Bridge Camp mm-hmm . Where we can officially do this and provide an opportunity for parents and teens in particular. To provide a camp environment that they are able to experience service and adventure and learning opportunities together and hopefully establish some of those patterns that they can then take with them and take home with them and implement in their everyday life together. And even then include the rest of their family members mm-hmm . And so we had an opportunity to start this nonprofit program. We received some ex, uh, pretty considerable funding from some philanthropists that were interested in the dream.

Dan & Dave Gray: (06:12)

And so we've been doing it now for about two or three years, and it's been just a phenomenal experience. Awesome. So that's the background. Awesome. And can I, can I chime in just a little bit there too? Of course. This, this is Dave. And, uh, just to, just to piggyback a little bit on what Dan, um, uh, was expressing and yes, as growing up, we, uh, were always involved in doing outdoors activities and, and doing kind of, uh, uh, r rites of passage as we turn 12 and going on hikes and, you know, meeting with our grandparents and our grandfathers and having them teach us about, you know, what it is to, to be a man and, and to grow into adulthood and, and to going into teenage years. Those were impactful times for me. And then particularly for me, um, about 10, 10, 11 years ago, I went through a pretty difficult divorce and it was a very difficult time for me.

Dan & Dave Gray: (07:07)

And my kids were young, they were two and five. And because of our particular situation, I ended up having the kids for about 90% of the time for about three to four years. And while it was amazing for me to have the time with them, it made it really, really difficult also to try and be working full-time and, and getting used to a new, a new system of, you know, of living. And, and, um, and I went through some pretty dark times. And honestly, I can say that the connection with my kids is really what got me out of the dark places. And, um, and it really solidified the importance to me of those, the parent, child, parent kid relationship, not only from the example of my parents and how the connection between us, my, my growing up years, how that was impactful and important in our family, but going through such a difficult, tough time and realizing that the connection between me and my kids is really what brought me out of, uh, like the most difficult time in my life.

Dan & Dave Gray: (08:07)

And so, as the opportunity arose about three years ago, for us to, um, be involved with some different nonprofit efforts and organizations that we had been involved with in our other, um, endeavors, like with Elizabeth Smart and some other different, you know, amazing people who are doing amazing work, um, my dad and I kind of just started brainstorming of different ideas and things we could do. And with the changes in the Boy Scout program over the recent years, which, you know, were much needed, much needed changes, but we're also recognizing, as my dad was mentioning with the families he was working with, you know, parents were obviously dealing with some of their own personal issues and their relationship issues, but they were still having to be functional parents while they're going through their own difficult times. And with this technological and technologically advanced world, screen times take over, right?

Dan & Dave Gray: (08:58)

Mm-hmm . And parents were finding it more and more through my dad and through our, our, my dad's practice and other therapists we were working with closely. Parents were struggling to know how to connect with their kids. And, uh, the struggle with balancing, um, screen time, gaming, social media, and, uh, the lack of getting outdoors with programs like sc you know, the scouting program and things. It all just kind of created this perfect storm for us to create a really unique program that, um, allows for families to have connection opportunities that are unique and different. There aren't any other programs like what we are offering, um, that I found and, and that we have found. There are some, you know, bible camp experiences, some church type, um, related camps and programs that people can do. But this is, this is very unique. It's, it really is not a therapeutic program. It's not a church program, it's a relational program. Mm-hmm . And, um, so that, I, I just wanted to add, to add my, my little 2 cents there. Um, you know, everything that my dad mentioned is, is, uh, definitely, uh, get, got us on the road to where we are, but my personal experience with my kids, um, really kind of spearheaded, to help us create where, where we are now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:15)

Yeah. And I appreciate that, um, you recognize, I think, you know, particularly when we're parenting, um, younger children, it feels very, very one way, you know, the relationship, it's a very, very managerial, very transactional, very one way. But I think it's so interesting to hear you having had that experience of like, oh no, it comes back. It's, it's like a tide. It's not a river, you know, it comes in and it goes out both ways. It's very beautiful. It's a beautiful, beautiful reason to want to, uh, increase relationship. And I love your focus on adventure specifically, because I feel like there's, I don't know, I feel like, I feel like people need to be outdoors more anyways, for a variety of so many reasons, but

Dan & Dave Gray: (11:14)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:15)

Can you give a breakdown of what happens at BridgeCamp? What are the kinds of things you do? And you touched a little bit about who the campers are, but, um, I'd like to hear more about that as well.

Dan & Dave Gray: (11:28)

Sure. You want me to take that? Yeah, yeah. Alright. Um, so the, the camps are designed for a one-on-one parent-teen experience. So oftentimes we have parents call and say, “Hey, can, I've got two teenagers, can I bring both of them?” And maybe down the road we'll get to a point where we'll create the curriculum steps that that can happen. But for right now, it's a one-on-one parent teen experience. So teenagers age range from 12 to 17. We can make some exceptions there depending on, on the family's particular situation. But, uh, 12 to 17 and our camps really are for a mix. If it's a mother-daughter or a mother-son or a father-son, father-daughter. Um, we do have two camps dedicated to the, um, in the year for a father, one for a father-son, one for a mother-daughter. And, um, uh, so there, there's different, you know, different camping opportunities.

Dan & Dave Gray: (12:20)

We have two different locations. One is just east of Park City, Utah, uh, at a place called Camp Oakley, uh, Weber Canyon. And the other location is at a place in southern Utah called Veyo Pools. And those locations kind of, um, dictate a little bit what our adventure activities are. So for example, at the Camp Oakley location, we are able to do a, an, an equine experience with horses. We are, uh, we, we do a high ropes course adventure with the NAC, the National Ability Center. Uh, we do a self-defense program with the Elizabeth Smart Program. We have some of their instructors come and give a, uh, a two-hour course and, uh, program on self-defense and, and basic, you know, self, uh, uh, combat training basically. Um, we, we do all, we also do other different kinds of activities. We have fishing, we have some just basic things that, uh, encourage particular conversational, um, experiences while they're adventuring.

Dan & Dave Gray: (13:27)

So, for example, we have a, we have a little silly tradition that we, we developed at our first camp. We have a ping pong table, and we set up the table next to the river underneath, you know, underneath the, the, the mountains. And it's very picturesque. And we have, uh, about a 25-minute time where they just hit the ping pong ball and have a conversation topic that they're supposed to discuss that hopefully will create, um, a connection opportunity that's unique and maybe have an aha moment. Uh, which we have had many of the, of our participants have in different experiences. You know, one at, at, at one camp, sometimes we have a, a gaming, uh, console in set up, in, in, like in a sprinter van. And so a parent goes in, a dad will go in and sit down with his teenager and let the parent let the teenager guide a 25-minute gaming experience where there's no com, you know, no, no time limit.

Dan & Dave Gray: (14:20)

I mean, of course we put the time limit on it, but it's not the parent saying, okay, you know, you can have 30 more minutes if you read. Um, but it's a chance to create just unique opportunities, um, and, and to watch the fathers freak out as they are trying to compete with their, their son or their daughter on a, on a gaming board that they don't know anything about. It's fun to watch. And, and it's funny to hear him say gaming board, right? That's a perfect example. And there we go, , whatever it is, a stick, whatever, it's . Um, but, but one example, like the adventuring part, it really is, it's such a key component to this because what we, what we hope to do is, is help the parent and the teen get out of their comfort zones a little bit. Because when that happens, vulnerability happens and different communication occurs, whether it's verbal or just per, you know, perception.

Dan & Dave Gray: (15:13)

Um, down at Veyo, for example, the Veyo Pools camp, it's a lot of climbing and repelling. You don't have to have any experience of, you know, climbing experience or repelling experience. But because of that location, uh, to have a, a teenage daughter, uh, belaying and, and, and being responsible for the parent or for the dad who's up there climbing 30 feet up, of course it's all supervised. And we, you know, we go through all the safety precautions, but that creates a real unique discussion later on of, of the power dynamics and how interesting and, and, and what an amazing opportunity for the, the teenager to be, you know, to hold such responsibility with their parent.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:53)

For sure. And

Dan & Dave Gray: (15:54)

Another, and another example, we had a camp, uh, experience where a father-son were at the top of the, uh, the, the ropes course, the high ropes course, and they were supposed to be accomplishing a certain task together, and they were just butting heads. They were, they were arguing, they were getting frustrated. And we have mental health professionals. My dad is one, but we also have other therapists who are with us throughout the entire camp, and they're helping us, you know, all along. So for example, this is, this is one, one, this was a key component to this, to the camp and, and, uh, and such a good example as to what kind of adventure activities can bring out relationship situations. So the therapist noticed this conflict and went right over there up on the top of the ropes course, all, you know, clipped in and everything, and she said, “Hey, everything okay over here?

Dan & Dave Gray: (16:39)

You know, I noticed this is happening. Is this how you con, is this how you deal with conflict at home? You know, is is it with, is it a dynamic that you deal with just between you or is it something your family does?” And they were able to sit and in real time when it was happening up, you know, 40 feet in the air, discuss a, a different way and get different tools, um, to maybe handle conflict different. Wow. And, and, and, and so that's one example of, of adventure activities, it's amazing the vulnerability that occurs when we are pushed outside of our comfort zone, and we're doing it together with, with, with our family member.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:39)

Um, well, it totally, it totally goes back to that thing that you were speaking of earlier that I picked up on, where it's like the, your focus is on this, this give and take of the relationship. You know, the parent doing something new for the first time with their kids, so their kids seeing their learning process as well. And I think that's, um, it's just, uh, it's a very, it's a very unique and kind of foundationally important way to spend time together. So when we come back, let's talk more about your great summer camp that brings families together?

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Hillary Wilkinson: (20:27)

I'm speaking with Dan and Dave Gray, the father-son co-foun ders of BridgeCamp, a camp whose mission is to strengthen fa milies by helping parents connect with their teens. And they do this by offering experiential camp programs where parents and teens come together for a weekend of adventure, service, and learning activities designed specifically to strengthen their relationship and bond like never before. Like we were hearing about that one for those two family members, literally communication solving up on the face of a cliff earlier. And do you, uh, so I think, I think the, um, the next thing I would be interested in hearing about is do you ever hear back from families who have participated in your, in your camp, in your programs?

Dan & Dave Gray: (21:46)

Yeah. Yes, we do. Hillary, and this is Dan again. Um, maybe just how to segue into that is a follow up with that particular story, because that event kind of triggered then some other events during the camp between this father and son that then in the evening, during our learning time around the campfire, with some instructed direction on conflict resolution and active listening skills that are taught by some of our professionals, that they were able to then have a con continuation of that discussion that they had upon that ropes course event. And it then opened up some further discussions for them that we heard about later on when they got home. As we got feedback from the dad in particular, that it was crucial in his ability to then open up discussion with his son, referring back to that time at the ropes course, that time sitting in the ice bath together, uh, that time around the campfire talking, and then the time that they had when they went back to their tent with the assignment that they had to continue the discussion and had assigned topics that they were to cover while they were in the tent together before they went to bed.

Dan & Dave Gray: (23:06)

And those events really led to an ongoing discussion at home that then ended up involving also the mother and then the other siblings as they sat down at different times together and talked about the camp experience to see how they might be able to then extend that experience into talking to the family and the, the, the, the wife and the other kids about open communication. Yeah. How do we talk about conflict that we are dealing with? And we got a, an ongoing report from that particular father that we still get, actually, we've had contact with him for a couple of years, um, and he's been very supportive of our program. And it's been a pretty unique, not unique we see that type of experience, but just it's unique I can, to see how the extension of those experiences can turn into an ongoing continuation of, of progress with the family.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:05)

Yeah. I can see how the camp and the experiences at camp would be kind of the catalyst for change. And I think that's, yeah, I think it's, um, just an amazing program, so. Well, thank

Dan & Dave Gray: (24:19)

You. Just let me add to that really quickly, too. Two of our staff members, um, are now involved because they came through with their daughters, uh, two summers ago. One of them brought one daughter at one camp and brought another daughter to another camp that summer and just said, Hey, I wanna be involved with this. This is amazing. And volunteer here volunteered her time, and now she's, now she's, you know, I mean, we, we, we don't, we don't full-time employee really, uh, anybody. But, um, you know, she is part of our staff and she comes and she's passionate about it. Um, and one of our other staff members came through with one with her son, and, uh, and they just wanted to be involved.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:23)

Kind of swinging it around to digital wellness, just so we, you know, it's healthy screen habits, so we're gotta do that course. Of course. But what, what in your, you guys have this kind of overarching view of the amazing outdoor world and the physical world that we live in. What, what do you think the digital world is taking from our kids or taking from families, I guess I should ask?

Dan & Dave Gray: (25:58)

Well, well, uh, I have, I have a phrase with my kids that I say, “Are we aimlessly scrolling?” Is it just aimless time that's not used, you know, other than to escape mm-hmm . And, uh, there, there is time for some of that. Um, but when it is all the time, and it starts to be, it starts to be, you know, a problem, they would rather do that than engage in a conversation with somebody they're in the same room with, uh, that that's, that's a problem. I think we're seeing basic communication skills, uh, being lost. And, you know, I mean, I can't imagine back in the day in high school asking, asking a, a girl to a dance on a text message and not going, and, you know, I mean, now, and we used to do creative things like they do nowadays with posters and things like that too. But if I wanted to go on a different, on a date with somebody, I'd make a phone call. My stomach was full of butterflies or, you know, I was anxious. And now it's just so easy to send a text and it's just so informal. Um, and so I think being able to zone out anytime a, a teenager wants to, by aimlessly scrolling, they miss out on, you know, real-time experiences, um, and opportunities to have to learn how to have conversations with people. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:14)

Yeah. I

Dan & Dave Gray: (27:15)

Just, a real funny, quick take off from that. I talked to a couple of young ladies after I gave a presentation, and they're seniors in high school, and I asked them, what would you do if a boy called you up and asked you out on the phone

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:30)

Mm-hmm .

Dan & Dave Gray: (27:30)

And the one girl said, without missing a stroke, I'd marry him on the spot. . That's funny because they don't do that. And these girls are hungry for some connection that way, although they contribute to it too with their time on the, on the internet or on their devices as well. From a professional, professional perspective, though, I, people come into me because they have developed habitual patterns and addictions related to their devices and their screen time. Mm-hmm . They can't seem to pull away. They become dependent upon it in order to manage boredom and loneliness and stress and depression and those emotions that then trigger them onto just spending time online because they don't have to risk being rejected by someone. They can just go online and get into that zone. And after then hours they find that they've then not taken time to connect with their family, do their homework, miss their work. It becomes then an addictive pattern that is very difficult to break.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:41)

Yeah. What you've described right there is what we call at healthy screen habits, the cycle of vulnerability that just leads to that perpetuation of tech overuse because it's just digital distraction is not self-care.

Dan & Dave Gray: (28:56)

Right? It's that dopaminergic reaction. It it, that happens neurologically in our brains and we're, we're, you know, we're designed to like that experience mm-hmm . And so when it goes without limit and without boundaries, uh, I think our, our kids are really losing out on the opportunity to learn quality, good communication skills.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:20)

Yeah. We have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Dan and Dave for their healthy screen habit.

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Gabb Wireless

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I'm speaking with Dan and Dave Gray, the father-son co-founders of Bridge Camp. And now guys, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own homes. What's yours?

Dan & Dave Gray: (30:04)

It's a great question. I love that you ask all of your guests this. Um, we're, we're, we have a slightly different take. Um, I think, you know, we talk so much about having limits and boundaries and all of that is super healthy. We need to have those discussions with our kids and with our teenagers. Um, but the fact of the matter is, screens are here to stay. Our kids are gonna be going through their teenage years, moving into adulthood, going through college, everything on their screens. So while we set up healthy boundaries and limits, I would suggest, we would suggest of finding ways, um, as a family to utilize screen time together to connect in healthy and positive ways, (embrace it) instead of always focusing on the negative aspects of screen time that seems to only require limitations and negative consequences. So examples of that could be, uh, deciding to do Duolingo, for example, and commit as a family to learn another language and get on that, you know, get on it together, challenge each other, um, have competitions together.

Dan & Dave Gray: (31:07)

Uh, maybe you could set up a five-minute discussion before dinnertime, have everybody go around and say, Hey, okay, what was everybody's experience with social media? What, what, what was a, a post you saw that impacted you? What was a negative post? Uh, what was a, you know, a fun post or something like that. And everybody goes around and discusses it. Um, and one other option might be to decide on a purpose and a messaging that you family would like to put out on a continual basis. Maybe it's a monthly basis, maybe it's a weekly basis. And together you do a short reel, record a video that you post out together and you all, you know, do it on your own individual accounts and share it. Share it and say, Hey, as a family we went and we did a service project and this is this, these were the results.

Dan & Dave Gray: (31:52)

Or, uh, we, at this week we talked as a family, the importance of acceptance. And um, you know, give an example that, uh, one of you had, uh, that week or something like that. And make it a family experience. So while the limits and boundaries are being put in place to help our kids also embrace the fact that it is part of our reality today and, um, and take the positive of it. 'cause there are positives to the digital experience that our kids are going through in their life. And, uh, and maybe engage in some of those different types of activities.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:26)

I love it. You're keeping technology as the tool it was intended for. You're not letting it overtake the connection part. I love all of that, right? I know there are a few more, sessions of Bridge Camp that are coming this summer. Do you guys have dates for them? In case anybody's thinking, gosh, this is so amazing, I'd like to do it with my kid. Where do you have those dates?

Dan & Dave Gray: (33:16)

We do, yeah. Let, uh, let me give those to you. Um, we have a camp in Veyo, uh, that is on June 20th to the 22nd. And then we have, uh, a camp in July 11th through the 13th, August 1st through the third, and August 15th through the 17th at Camp Oakley. Okay. And just a reminder, we provide all the tents, the cots, all the food. Um, we really, uh, all you have to do is bring a sleeping bag and a pillow and uh, and, and we, we provide the rest and we have, we camp next to very nice restrooms and showers too. Yeah. Some, some might, some might, uh, classify it as a glamping experience. Um, yet we are, we are out there camping, but it's very, very accommodating. Uh, uh, you know, tents and, I mean, the, the tents are like eight-person tents and there's one family, you know, a parent-teen duo to one tent. Um, and we really try to make it a positive experience all around. So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:14)

Well, it sounds fantastic. I'm positive there are people listening that are like, “Oh, let, let's go check our calendar!” As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to BridgeCamp's website by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Dan, Dave, thank you so much for, I just feel like you guys are following your calling. I feel like this is what you were meant to do is bring these outdoor adventures and making them accessible for families to establish greater connection. And thank you, thank you for doing that.

Dan & Dave Gray: (34:57)

Thank you, Hillary. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

S13 Episode 4: Starting Over // Ryan Huh

Wed, 28 May 2025 03:18:42 GMT

"…use your technology and don't let your technology use you…"

~ Ryan Huh

Director Ryan Huh has a fantastic new short documentary for you to explore. Starting Over is the story of four young men engaged in recovery from digital addiction. It is set in the ReSTART Life residential program and can serve as a great conversation starter for families looking to have a good talk about tech.

On this episode, Ryan told me what he learned along the way while creating Starting Over. Spoiler: It’s got nothing to do with tech and everything to do with empathy. Listen now!!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.ryanhuh.com/starting-over

https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/episode-11-recognizing-gaming-addiction-hilarie-cash-of-restart-life

https://www.restartlife.com/

Show Transcript

One of the best ways that I have found to connect with my own teens around the topics of technology and other things that I'm wanting to take a deeper dive into is through the use of film and movies. Not unlike when my guys were young. I would use picture books to introduce topics. I often use movies and films to foster deeper connections and have deeper conversations on tricky topics. So if you're a parent of, or someone who, is currently struggling with the overuse of video games or technology, I have a fantastic new documentary for you to explore. Its name is Starting Over , and the writer and director is here today to discuss it. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Ryan Huh.

Ryan Huh: (01:28)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:30)

Great. Ryan, what brought you to want to make a documentary on this topic of digital overuse and, um, recovery?

Ryan Huh: (01:42)

Yeah, so, you know, what really brought me to this story and this project it's really a two-part journey. Um, it started originally probably like most people, you know, during Covid time, which was really when I started to uncover this problem of just using my phone too much, just using my screens too much and just not connecting with the people around me. So, you know, in all transparency, I'm 22 years old right now, um, just fresh outta college, uh, studying filmmaking at NYU Tisch. And so basically during the COVID time, I was in high school. And so basically, you know, during this time, um, I was, you know, just figuring my life out. I'm a young 18-year-old man, so I'm just trying to figure out all these things. What am I gonna do in my life?

Ryan Huh: (02:22)

And during this time, I really started to notice that obviously I'm spending, you know, lots of time on technology. I'm spending lots of time on my phone, and I really started to notice how, like, you know, as a young guy, I just wanna have some good, you know, some good time with my friends and my family. And I really realized how I'm trying to connect with my friends. And just during these moments when I try to connect with my friends, I realized that, you know, our phones and just the way we're constantly infiltrated with all these thoughts from social media about what we need to think, what we need to, how we need to act like, it almost made, you know, making friends during that time feel like a performance. So that really, you know, I felt really moved by this problem. It felt like such a huge problem in my own life.

Ryan Huh: (03:03)

Going forward from this time, it was honestly just looking at this one problem. This seemed like the biggest problem in my life at the time, because also, you know, I also felt like, you know, I was able to grow up, you know, pretty, you know, pretty privileged where I have like, you know, I never had to worry about food. I never had to worry about, you know, money too much. I don't have to worry about these really big problems. And for me, um, I'm just looking around with like, the people in my life, the people, um, the loved ones in my life, and really just not being able to connect with these people and feeling like this, um, this, this barrier between us. It really felt like it was because technology. So, you know, from that point, that seemed like the biggest problem that was just around me.

Ryan Huh: (03:43)

So then as I kind of went to college, I kind of wanted to figure out how I can, you know, help this problem because this was the problem that I knew that I experienced firsthand, and I felt like I had the knowledge for how to help people, um, grow outta this problem. So actually, you know, from there, it was a couple years later was when I had made this connection with Hilarie Cash. Um, and Hillary Cash is a, a psychologist who, you know, actually co-founded Restart Life, which is the subject of this documentary. It's a technology addiction rehab center. Um, so that was, you know, it was really interesting and fascinating to make this connection with her at this time. So, yeah, uh, zoom forward to a couple years later, I met Hilarie Cash and she was actually going on this really interesting trip, um, because she wanted to learn more about how this problem of technology and, you know, technology issues specifically to mental health issues was not just, you know, not because she knew all about how it affected people in America, um, affected the clients that she worked with because she's really been working in this field for a very long time.

Ryan Huh: (04:48)

But she wanted to kind of learn more firsthand, just talk to people in other countries as well, um, and kind of more developing nations where the problem is, you know, of course their technology is a bit more new since they're, you know, slowly starting to implement it into their, you know, cultures and worlds as well. So we actually traveled to Kenya together, um, during that time. And, you know, it was really like, it was really all about, just during that time, you know, getting to know the people in Kenya and how they were dealing with this, like, new problem as well, and just understanding, like, just trying to, you know, kind of getting that, you know, a little bit of a global perspective, just focusing on those individual people, um, in those different areas. And it was really fascinating, um, during that time. So I actually traveled with her during, on that trip.

Ryan Huh: (05:32)

Um, I was helping document some of the journey as well with her, documenting some of the conversations we had with different people in Kenya during that time. So it was really fascinating. So, um, after we took that trip, then, you know, a couple years later, I, you know, I thought about it and I was like, you know, we had that amazing ship in Kenya, but, um, you know, Hilarie has her, you know, her center, uh, in Washington State, um, here in the US. Why don't I tell that story there? Because, you know, I have this connection with Hilarie now, and I am really fascinated by, you know, now, you know, understanding this problem a little bit more, getting a little bit more experience in it. So I really wanted to tell this story and learn more about how people are dealing with it, especially people who have reached a point in their life when they felt like, you know, this, uh, this, you know, using technology becomes an addiction. So they feel like it has brought their life so, so bad that they need to get outside and professional help. So we really wanted to, you know, go in and tell this story.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:42)

That's great. I, um, I had the opportunity to interview Hillary Cash several seasons back. I'll link that interview in the show notes. And, uh, Hil…, of course, she's got the greatest name, doesn't she?

Ryan Huh: (06:58)

. Yeah, Hillary Cash. Cash.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:02)

Oh, no, I'm, I'm saying Hilarie. Come on now. .

Ryan Huh: (07:06)

Oh, oh, okay. I, yeah, Hillary. Hillary, I was just thinking money. I guess that's why I think about .

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:12)

No, the best name is Hilarie. Yeah,

Ryan Huh: (07:14)

Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:16)

But, um, yeah, uh, I'll link that episode in our show notes. And she, she is, uh, was really a pioneer in recognizing the kind of, um, overwhelming thing that was happening within our digital world of taking over people's lives through persuasive design of video games, and really was kind of one of those front runners too. She has the only residential addiction treatment center in North America at the time when I interviewed her. I don't know whether others had come up at this point.

Ryan, circling back to one of those things that you talked about, you said you felt like life was a performance as you were growing up, and I think that that is something that is new, it's new to your generation, right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:28)

Of this kind of on this feeling of always being on. And it kind of gets to this concept of needing to establish sanctuaries within our home, right? As one of our five core healthy screen habits. We say, you know, you have to establish times and places within your home without screens for that reason. Also, because you just need to be away from the ongoing metrics of life of like, how many counts do I have? Or how many followers, how many likes? What are my grades? What are, I just feel like, like our teens today are under so much scrutiny by themselves of just looking at the constant numbers that are following them everywhere. So, um, I would you agree with that as far as how it feels like growing up?

Ryan Huh: (09:24)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that was really one of the things that was so fascinating. And so, you know, it's so, it was, it felt like such a, you know, huge problem to me. Um, personally, it was really like, what I really, you know, thought about a lot was how, you know, I've realized, there was like this shift in values that you would have because of using, you know, social media too much using, just using technology too much. And if you just, if you just think about it, you know, from like the obvious standpoint, um, you know, if you just think about it, obviously, you know, during the covid time, lots of, you know, lots of young people were using their devices using social media. You know, their screen time could be like, you know, maybe many people could be averaging five hours, and five hours could be moderate and low for some

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:10)

For sure. Average age of screen time use for entertainment for teens today in the US is between eight and nine hours.

Ryan Huh: (10:19)

Exactly. So that,

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:20)

That's beyond school use, right? Yeah. We're talking entertainment purposes.

Ryan Huh: (10:24)

Exactly. So you just think about that sheer fact. It's obviously gonna affect how you think, and when you think about the type of thoughts and the type of things that you are constantly bombarded with, right? Imagine you're just walking through the supermarket and you just see all these advertisements in your face all the time. It's like you, it makes you think subconsciously about, you know, what you're seeing. And in that same way, I've realized, you know, as a young person during that time growing up, I realized, you know, we're constantly exposed to, you know, seeing our, seeing ourselves and measuring ourselves by these numbers and all those things. And it really does get ingrained in you where you start to measure your own value, you know, by all these numbers. Um, and not only that, it seems like, you know, performing and maybe even like just hanging out with your friends, just to be able to post something that becomes the point of everything.

Ryan Huh: (11:15)

So it reaches a point where all of a sudden, because social media is also something where we are the creators, we are the ones who are putting the content out there all of a sudden, like every single hangout, every single, you know, outing is just like, uh, it's the, the point is only to create content. So all of a sudden we are these unpaid creators, um, for, for an audience of each other, and we're just constantly making stuff trying to amuse each other, um, with that content. Yeah. So it was really, really fascinating to just think about that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:45)

Yeah. And you think about the rise of like, the pop-up museums that basically it's just room after room after room of postable um, spaces where you can pose and take a picture, but it's not, it's not actually a museum in the sense of enriching your, your mind through art. Yeah. Or art history or sculpture or architecture. It's simply room after room after content creation. So it's, I'm not passing judgment, I'm just pointing out it's interesting.

Ryan Huh: (12:20)

Yeah, exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:22)

Yeah. So when we come back, let's talk a little bit more about your great new documentary Starting Over.

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Ad Break : HSH Workbook

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speak ing with Ryan Huh, graduate of NYU Tish School of the Arts, which I am very familiar with right now because I've been rewatching Gossip Girl with my teen. And it's where, um, the school that Vanessa gets into, for those of you who remember, uh, you know, over Joel, it causes quite a bit of angst, so it's very reputable. Um, Ryan, can you tell us what, like, um, can you give us a basic breakdown of your documentary and tell us like what, what the premise is and who is in it?

Ryan Huh: (13:23)

Yeah, exactly. So Starting Over is the name of the short documentary that we're talking about today and that we created. So basically Starting Over is a story which follows Four Men, um, at Restart Life, this technology addiction rehab center. So basically it follows, you know, them telling their own story, their own journey in their own words. Um, it's that these characters talking about their personal struggles, it's about four young men who are at four different stages of recovery. One of the young men is Theo who is preparing to enroll inside the recovery program. Another is Rory, who is kind of just starting out in the program. Another is Matt, who is nearing the end of the treatment, and another is Charlie, who actually has been in recovery and been out of the program for a decade.

It follows this journey, how, you know, we have these four different people who are at the four different stages of recovery. So we kind of follow that narrative to see first of all, you know, the connections between all four of these different stories, what led them all to be here because there are very similar arcs, um, of, you know, using technology too much and really feeling very poor about themselves. And then, um, eventually, um, after following all four of these people kind of figuring out what it takes for them to overcome, um, this technology addiction that they've really developed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:50)

Yeah. So Ryan, who did you make this film for? Who was your primary audience?

Ryan Huh: (14:56)

Yeah, I would say I made this film particularly, um, I wanted to show this for, especially for young people to understand, you know, about this experience. And, um, yeah, first off, for young people, for them to see, you know, people who have really, these people are really kind of at the extreme end where they need to get professional help. But, you know, just, just having these people in our documentary, um, the four subjects, having them tell their stories and kind of just talk to them, talking to them like, man to man, just as a person, you kind of understand how their stories, it could really happen to anyone. And they're really no different, um, from other people, it's just that they've kind of been exposed to the problem a little bit more. So I really wanted, um, a lot of young people specifically around my age to be able to understand and see how we can really relate, um, to how these people who have, who are at ReStart have fell really deep into the problem. And we could kind of see how, you know, we probably use technology in this in a very similar way as well, and we fall habit to those same problems.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:00)

. I feel like, um, young men are kind of having a moment in our digital wellness world with the, um, the, the series Adolescence , which has a young 13-year-old boy and, uh, you know, as the main character and then yourself coming out with, you know, this, which focuses on the Four Men. So what, uh, because you're a guy, I'm interested, what do you think gaming or online life is providing for young men? And I'm, I'm, I'm focusing on young men just because that's like the focus of your film, but what do you think it's providing that offline life does not like? What, what is the pull?

Ryan Huh: (16:53)

With our four subjects, um, for three of them, uh, really the main problem that they were dealing with was playing video games too much. Um, and then another character of ours, um, Matt, another person in our story who we, who we interviewed Matt, his problem was really, he was running a social media meme account, actually. So he was very addicted to, um, being able to create, you know, content for an audience, and it really led to problematic behavior for him. So, you know, when I really talked to these people and how I could, was able to relate to them, it was really just about how, you know, playing video games online, it starts like very innocent. It's like the same way how, you know, boys, you know, we just wanna go play basketball with your friends, you know, play at the park.

Ryan Huh: (17:36)

And that's like video games could serve that same purpose at first, where you're just playing with your friends, but you know, a common through line that every single one of them had. And when we were talking together was eventually, you know, it becomes not about socializing anymore. And eventually it became just about that rush that you can get, you know, from playing the games. And that was really fascinating to hear how they all kind of had that same experience. Um, and it was really interesting to know that, you know, playing these video games and playing, um, and, you know, using social media, things like that, it can give us the outlet to feel successful, to feel accomplished to, you know, go through a hard task and be rewarded for it for us. So it's really dangerous because we get that instant reward, which is so easy, and it's so easy to just, you know, get, get ahead of that and need one more and need one more and need one more. So it was really fascinating to hear.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:31)

Yeah. So doing that reward system, doing that difficult task, but without, um, without having to engage any of our other senses. Right? I mean, but there's, um, it's a, there's a very big difference between, you know, I've, I've watched a lot of hours of Zelda at my house, , and you know, I mean, Link is amazing, you know, climbing cliffs and hopping on these horse things. I don't know what they are, but yeah, I mean, you can do that very quickly. You can learn those skills very quickly online, without fostering any muscles, heart rate, respiration rate, that, um, you would get engaging in offline life.

Ryan Huh: (19:23)

Absolutely. And it was really also another thing we talked about. It was like, it was just really also another way to just cope with, you know, problems people have in your life. Mm. Um, like, obviously a lot of these different people that we talk to and myself as well, you know, obviously you're gonna have struggles in your life. You, you know, you have times where you're failing school or you have times where you just don't know what to do with your life. Your job sucks. And then, you know, when you're dealing with all these problems, which really feel terrible, you can, you know, go online and you have that instant reward and you, you know, you get lost in like that little dopamine hit. And that's what all these different people, you know, we talked to kind of related to how they were using, you know, their video games, how they were using, you know, social media to just get that rush where they could kind of forget about some of the problems that they were really dealing with. And in that way it kind of, kind of froze you in, inaction. Mm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:15)

I like that phrase. It froze you. Yeah. So Ryan, where can people watch this? We're giving them all this good information, and I think it would foster a lot of very healthy conversation around, you know, if you were to watch it with your teens, just even in talking about like, you know, long-term goals of where would you like to be at this age, or where would you like to, you know, do you, do you have these feelings? What does I, I like rephrasing it. Like what does the game provide you that online life does not, you know, like, what does this do for you, you know, but, um, so that people can have these conversations, uh, where can people watch it?

Ryan Huh: (20:58)

Absolutely. So people could watch the film, um, on my personal website. And so my personal website is ryan hu.com, and so you could go to ryan hu.com/starting over. So the film will be available to watch there, and it's a, it's a private YouTube link that you'll be able to watch. So hopefully also, you know, we have the private YouTube link that, you know, the audience can watch. And we're also hoping to, you know, hopefully get this film, you know, seen at different, um, different film festivals as well to kind of continue to, um, spread this conversation.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:27)

I'll link all of that in the show notes. So I have to ask, did working on this project change any of your online habits?

Ryan Huh: (21:42)

So, for changing my online habits, I don't think, you know, for me it really wasn't specifically about like the online habits. I think it was more about, you know, I do admit, you know, when I went into this project, I feel like I had a bit of a bias where I felt like, you know, I'm just going into this project and obviously, you know, I'm talking to people who are clients at Restart who have suffered, you know, for technology addiction. So I sort of, you know, just thought of these guys as, oh, they're just addicts, type of thing, right? I kind of put this label on them, and it kind of made me feel a little bit superior, you know, to them I realized I had that bias where I felt like, “Oh, that could never happen to me. It's, you know, it's not my problem.

Ryan Huh: (22:23)

It's these are the people who are dealing with the problem.” And really, when I, you know, started to talk to them and, you know, it was just as simple as just sitting down with people and just looking them in the eye and just saying, “Hi, how are you? Nice to meet you.” And having that conversation with them, I really just like came to realize how the same way that first of all, that they, you know, started to have this problem and fell deep into this problem where they, you know, became a hundred percent addicted. Um, I also realized, you know, how much hard work it is just to just to work on yourself, um, and just tried to get better. I also realized, it's, it's difficult hard work to, kind of claim your narrative that you're recovering.

Ryan Huh: (23:05)

Um, and I realized how powerful it, uh, it is to like claim that narrative. So I think honestly, it was more about, for me, just, um, learning that lesson, um, experiencing that lesson about how important, your identity and your narrative is, and, for a lot of people, you know, using, you know, social media specifically or video games that can become your identity and it can be so powerful because,online, you are told who you are based on all the, numbers and things like that, it's very easy to label ourselves in that identity. And I realized, identity is so much more complex. Um, everyone is working hard to just improve themselves. So it's, it's really just giving people that dignity and understanding people's story. And I think it's that it goes a long way.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:55)

Uhhuh . So do you find yourself posting as much as you used to or let, like about your, your, what about your online presence?

Ryan Huh: (24:05)

Yeah, so I think for my online presence, um, I do understand that, you know, you need to, um, strike sort of a balance as well because people need to be able to, you know, obviously share who they are online to be able to meet new people. But at that same time, you can't rely on that becoming your everything. So I think really, um, really what I took away from this project was trying to, you know, prioritize who I am in real life first, which is really what, you know, these people really come to restart for. Mm-hmm . Um, one of the things they talk about is they have like a, just as simple, um, uh, as simple as having a life plan just to, you know, sort of map out what their life picture looks like, because that's something when they're just playing video games all day, they have absolutely no idea, makes it very, just as,

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:50)

Yeah, brings in the focus.

Ryan Huh: (24:52)

It's so narrow. So just as simple as being able to, um, you know, start with my own intentions, my own values first, then using technology to aid that, not using technology and then adding the values using you, um, starting with yourself first, then using technology to aid that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:11)

Mm-hmm . So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Ryan Huh for his healthy screen habit.
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I'm speaking with Ryan Hu, director of Starting Over, a must-see documentary on the journey of four young men as they work to recover from gaming addiction, and screen overuse. Ryan, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home and in their own lives. So what is yours?

Ryan Huh: (26:07)

So what I would specifically say is just this one line, use your technology and don't let your technology use you. So what, when I really talk about that, what that really comes across for myself, how I really think about that is you want to be able to have technology in place, um, have your social media in place as well, that aids you in like your own professional goals, your own personal goals, um, and not, not have your technology shape who you are and tell you what to do. So, you know, there's some small ways that you could do it that I really love to do. It's just like, you know, now there's been a lot of push to add lots of features, you know, lots of screen time features on Apple, on iPhone, things like that. And these like features are kind of difficult to find.

Ryan Huh: (26:51)

Um, but if you just kind of dig through your settings, have some fun with that, you kind of can figure out how you can configure your phone, um, to kind of be able to aid you and your own goals. You know, for myself, I know personally, uh, I just try not, you know, I'm working, I don't want to use my phone too much, I don't wanna be distracted. So I like to, you know, just as simple as setting up, you know, your notifications so they don't, uh, constantly interrupt you. Um, you know, because when you're using, when you're constantly distracting and switching between tasks, that's like, you're wasting so much time from doing that. So, you know, instead of having to check your, your phone notifications every five minutes, um, trying to bash that together, it can really be helpful. And it's just, you know, understanding that, you know, these are supposed to be tools, um, and letting them stay as tools and not having them tell us, uh, when, when we should use our devices.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:40)

Great. Sorry. Okay. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to Ryan's website by visiting the show notes for this episode. I'll also include a link to that previous interview with Hillarie Cash from ReStart. Do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Ryan, thank you so much for being, I find it so like rewarding and fascinating and fantastic that we are hearing more and more voices of Gen Z enter the chat of digital wellness because truly it is like, I mean, you're, as you come forward, you guys have had the experience, the boots on the ground experience of growing up with technology and figuring out how to balance it all. And thank you so much for giving us this new tool to help foster better connections and better conversation within our own families.

Ryan Huh: (28:45)

Thank you so much for having me.

S13 Episode 3: Follow Me: A Thriller ( A Fantastic Mom-Fluencer Mystery!) // Elizabeth Rose Quinn

Wed, 21 May 2025 19:13:43 GMT

"I think a lot about that and about the way that parents were using their children as … props for content and making money and all these different things, but without the children's consent...without compensation."

~Elizabeth Rose Quinn

Explore momfluencer culture and be entertained with a great new book! This week, we do something a little different and just for fun on Healthy Screen Habits Podcast. Follow Me: A Thriller is the story of sisterly love and a murderous momfluencing group who will stop at nothing to keep up appearances and provide perfect pictures of happy holidays.

I chat with the author, Elizabeth Rose Quinn who lived in Los Angeles for fifteen years while working in production and writing for television. Her novel Follow Me: A Thriller was optioned by Amazon MGM Studios and is currently in production as a feature film. We talk about the book, motherhood in the age of influencing and so much more! Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkin son: (00:00)

As moms, we are always looking for great escape books, a beach read, a naptime novel, and I have great news. I found your next adventure. My guest today lived in Los Angeles for 15 years while working in production and writing for television. And lucky for all of us, she has turned her efforts towards book writing. And I am one of the lucky ones who got a pre-release copy of her new novel. Follow Me . It's a great thriller set in mom influencer culture. It's already been optioned by Amazon MGM Studios and is currently in production as a feature film. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Elizabeth Rose Quinn!

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (00:58)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:02)

From the moment I picked up Follow Me , I could tell I was, I was reading the voice of someone who's in it, someone who's in the trenches of parenting. We've got all these voices and personalities of social media coming at us, am I vibing this right? Like, where are you in your momming journey?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (01:27)

Uh, you are vibing that extremely correctly. I have a 6-year-old and a 2-year-old, so I feel like I can see the end of utter chaos, but it's still a ways in the horizon.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:42)

I'm loving also the fact that social media and influencer culture has been part of cultural norm long enough that people are now not just seeing through it, but they're kind of having some, like, they're like poking fun at it like you do in Follow Me . They're definitely recognizable, kind of almost, I would say, like, um, character studies, if you will, of your different, your different moms that you have where you've got like your trad wife mom-fluencers, and then you've got, um, a specific call out of a character who's got, you know, this very holistic, bread baking, natural living that happens to be subsidized by her husband's family, fortune, . And if anyone needs a refresher on who I, who I, I read this particularly when there was a reference towards a basketball team and jets. I'm like, oh, hey, Ballerina Farm, how you doing there ? You know, ? So, so it's kind of one of those if you know, you know, type reads, but all of that to say like, was that your intent? To poke fun at this?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (03:05)

My intent in a lot of ways, and I totally understand the parallel you're making between one of the characters in Ballerina Farm, but my intent was almost to kind of find the archetypes of these influencer par like mothers. And it's the one who's always redecorating and like doing DIY projects around the house, and you're watching like a time-lapse video of her adding wainscotting while there's a toddler nearby. Or you know, the one who's constantly exercising and is like, everything is spandex and taught. And if you just do, you know, the 800 butt lifts that she does, you also could look like that. And so I didn't really wanna pick one person in particular to have it be a takedown of that singular account so much as a little bit more of a zoomed out generic point of view so that the reader could project whoever they have a pair of social relationship with onto that character mm-hmm . As opposed to them saying like, oh, well I don't follow so and so, so that character doesn't apply to me. It's like, but you probably follow somebody who does do that mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:07)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (04:08)

And I guess really to have a moment of like, these people are telling you what to do, but they don't know you and they're also selling you stuff. And if you see that, I want you to take a pause and go, why? What, what are they selling me? Do I need that ? Why am I taking advice from a stranger, even though I feel like I know them, they don't know you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:29)

I think one of the things that moms have always kind of, um, I don't know, just kind of, you've got gotta find your own, your own road on this journey, right? But it used to be that you selected the voices you selected, either whether it was your mom or your mother-in-law, or an aunt or somebody who had been instrumental. And there are, there are lots of voices in the “momosphere”, so to speak now, you know, and have, have you found yourself helped or hindered by some of these other mom influencers?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (05:18)

I think for me it felt like I needed to look at these as again, like suggestions from strangers as opposed to direct advice, like from my pediatrician or from my best friend who actually knows my kids and sees how I'm struggling. And to see an influencer talking about like, this is a great way to make healthy meals, to do meal planning. Like what about that works for me and what about it doesn't work for me? As opposed to saying, I should absolutely do it exactly how she's telling me, and I should definitely buy the product that she's selling me at the end. . Like, that was kind of the place where I felt like to engage a fair amount of media literacy whenever I was engaging with these accounts and not taking it as advice that was personalized to me from someone who I actually knew.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:09)

Which is hard with the algorithmic push because you're like, oh, this is exactly, I was just thinking about doing a coordinated family Halloween costume and now, now this person has, you know, the Pirates of the Caribbean set.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (06:27)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And also that idea when I would kind of be looking at it once I started being more critical at the time was like, okay, they're selling me this pot and pan set, but they're also actually selling my attention mm-hmm . To the corporation that's paying them, like they're not making money from the pots and pan set. They're making money from selling my eyeballs to a corporation that's actually where they're making their money. And the idea that they're this middleman in between and we're kind of imagining, oh, they're just giving us info. It's like, no, this info is not for free and your attention is not for free. Right. So maybe be a little more curious when people are trying to monopolize it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:09)

In the digital wellness pond that, uh, there's a name for it. It's actually called the Attention Economy. And that's, yeah, that's it. It's that whole, you know, of if you're not the consumer, you are the product and Exactly.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (07:25)

Be,

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:25)

Be aware how you're spending your time.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (07:27)

Exactly. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:29)

All of that, um, I feel like a lot of the young moms that I talk to, I have, um, uh, we have a pediatrician who we consult with, and one of the things that she confided in me was during a number of well-child visits, she said within the first two years, uh, at levels more than she has ever dealt with, she said, I've always had moms who are, um, you know, just entering parenthood. It's a very stressful time in your life. There's a number of women that will deal with postpartum, you know, mental issues. I mean, the hormones are flying, right? Mm-hmm

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (08:11)

. Mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:12)

But that being said, she said, I can nearly count on one hand in the past year the number of appointments that have not ended with women in tears. Mm-hmm . And she said, this, this is different. This did not used to be that way. Mm-hmm . And she said, but the moms are, she said, it's, it's breaking them, you know? Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . The, just all of the different, everything from breastfeeding to the safest this to whatever. I mean, how, in your, in your circles, how are you seeing that hit?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (08:58)

I had the, you know, unique experience of many people my age, where my first child turned one, and then a week later, the world closed. Mm. And quarantine began. And to have this really stressful time in your life and all this pressure to do well, to get it right, to be the best parent you can be, and then the world shuts down and your entire universe is kind of scaled down to your phone, and that's your only way to see out. It was so dizzying. And I had just heard the New York Times kind of come back after doing their scream line where I think they, I don't know what they expected, but they set up a scream line for parents, particularly mothers to call in to scream while they were trying to parent at home during COVID and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of women were calling to scream Wow. Hours and hours of screaming and crying, and I'm hiding in the laundry room. And I feel like it was this confluence of events of these expectations. Like, you have all the information in the universe, so there's no reason to not do it perfectly. And then the entire world bottoms out, and you don't have support, you don't have real-life interaction.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:56)

Right. But so how has that been different with your 2-year-old? 'cause that was your, that was your first experience.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (12:02)

That was my first,

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:03)

But um, but with your 2-year-old, we were not in lockdown.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (12:07)

So different.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:09)

Yeah. So different. Do you, do you feel though that that, like the, the pressures that you see being brought by the momfluencer culture are still weighing on people?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (12:24)

I don't see it as much because I think COVID was so painful for so many reasons that I think people now are just like, that's not real life. I can't, I can't attain that. I, I'm doing the best that I can. And I think also the fact that we're not trapped in our homes anymore. You know, you can't be on mom influencer TikTok all day long because like, you're going to the park 'cause the park is open. Yeah. And like schools are open and you're doing stuff with people who know you and you're talking to teachers who know your kids. And even if you are still on those momfluencer or TikTok, whatever universe, you have all this like real-life interaction to kind of balance it out. And before you really didn't during Covid. And so to have a first child during that was, was rough stuff.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:15)

Yeah. For sure. So we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, let's get into more sort of like influencer culture and your new book, Follow Me.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (14:51)

I'm speaking with Elizabeth Rose Quinn, author of Follow Me, A Thriller that is equal parts page turning and humorous. I, I had laugh-out-loud moments reading this. And as the story starts, um, after her twin sister, Kiara, goes missing at a momfluencer weekend, Adrian sets out to find her no matter what it takes. And that includes infiltrating the same influencer retreat as the last thing that Adrian wants to be, which is this Insta-mommy. The setting is in this remote ranch in northern California, and it is set up and to be, it's like whatever the next holiday is coming. So it's, it's very, it's very curated and it's very staged. And I, it's like sort of cult adjacent. They've got this charismatic leader, they've got communal crafting, there's fixed smiles and a lot of dead eyes. So it made me, I don't know what made me laugh, and maybe that, I don't know if that what that exposes about me, but it's so, so good.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:12)

You guys will love it. Get it in your lineup for your summer read. It's, it's awesome. Elizabeth, I feel like most of us are still building awareness around this fallacy of perfect family that you were talking about like before the break when you're talking about Covid. So this, this fallacy of perfect family that we see pictured on social medias and maybe like no one story brought this better to light than Ruby Frank for anyone who needs a quick catch-up. Ruby Frank was a family vlogger who ran the now-defunct YouTube channel Eight Passengers. And in 2023, she was arrested and subsequently convicted of four counts of aggravated child abuse and is currently incarcerated. So did the story of Ruby Frank factor into any of your writing? Or like what, how did that, did that play out any way for you or?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (17:27)

I was not aware of Ruby Frank, actually. Oh, I am, I'm a Ruby Frank novice. And, but what I will say is I did hear about those kind of first generation kids from YouTube families turning 18 and starting to speak out and saying my childhood was completely inauthentic. There was no moment for me to just exist. Everything was about the content and my actual childhood, or my feelings were secondary to getting the shot. Mm-hmm . And I think a lot about that and about the way that parents were using their children as like props for content and making money and all these different things, but without the children's consent

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:19)

And, no compensation.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (18:20)

And no compensation.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:21)

Yeah. No, we've only just started seeing legislation getting passed for child compensation of monetized content.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (18:28)

Yeah. And, and I, you know, I'm the age where I remember when Macaulay Culkin was like, I'm divorcing my parents. And, you know, learning about like the Mickey Rooney law, I think is what it is about, like child stars and having their parents not be able to spend all the money and working in Hollywood and working on shows where they were child actors and parents really loving the kind of, uh, adjacent stardom that they got. And I'm looking at these kids and they are miserable.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:59)

But you see this was was, were you living in, um, LA at that time? Yes. Because you lived in LA for 15 years, right? Yeah.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (19:06)

And so I'm working on shows and then, so now the idea that people are like, oh, but it's different 'cause it's YouTube. It's like, it's really not.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:13)

No. Yeah. No, I, I can remember having these same conversations back in the day where people were to use your words, using their child children as props for content and using their images and their, um, you know, reactions. And you hear about some parents even like quitting their jobs to work on their family brand, so to speak. I remember talking to other moms and saying, gosh, if only there were a case study where we knew how children thrust into early levels of celebrity turn out. Hmm. How could we find out how this ends? You know, when you look at most children celebrities, I mean, the, the end result is, unless it has been very carefully managed, the end result is not great. Right.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (20:16)

And a lot of the times the child, you know, actors who have turned out well, one of the things they credit was I had one parent who was like a full-time manager to protect me mm-hmm . And then my other parent maintained their career mm-hmm . So anytime I wanted to quit, the family wasn't gonna be destroyed. Yeah. And, but when your entire childhood becomes the content.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:42)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (20:43)

And I think there's a way that, and I talk about this in the book this way, way that we're all kind of pushed to become brands now and what are, like, what does our grid look like and how many people do we follow? And all this nonsense. Like, we're Coca-Cola and then you have a child that needs to fit into the brand as opposed to who is this child? And how do I help them become who they're supposed to be?

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:08)

Right.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (21:09)

That like, it's really the antithesis of parenting in so many ways. , like, I would say in the most basic ways, you know?

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:17)

Yeah. We spend so much time educating parents about, you know, oh, keeping your child safe online mm-hmm . But this is a whole,

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (21:27)

The call is coming from inside the house. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:30)

Exactly. Yes. Mm-hmm . Like this is a whole different level of mm-hmm . Of awareness. Yeah.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (21:39)

I, I do also kind of wanna credit, I remember Busy Phillips talking about this and that whenever she was gonna post something of one of her children online, she would show it to them. She would show them the caption, she would ask them how they felt about it. If they ever said, I don't want you to post that. She wouldn't, and also if she ever did, if she ever did any spon-con or any kind of advertisement that a big portion of the money went to her kids in their own account. Like she was very conscious of her being a celebrity and that she had chosen it, but that she wasn't gonna just then like, assume her kids wanted it too. And I appreciated that conversation very much. 'cause I think it is easy for children of celebrities to also fall into this role of like, they're still just becoming content. And that's really unfair.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:21)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think she had that added lens of having, I mean, she started in the industry very young, you know mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And I mean that she had that awareness to set up those accounts, to do those things. I think that a lot of, a lot of the family accounts that we see coming out are not, they're not from entertainment industry families. Mm-hmm . It's a lot of families in middle America who have found a new income stream mm-hmm . And it's, um, yeah. I it's, it's like you said, it's turning your family into a brand and recognizing the cost that, that can have.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (23:05)

Well, I'm saying to your child that my brand is more important than who you are.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:09)

Mm-hmm . Yeah.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (23:11)

And you need to conform to the brand, otherwise you're harming me. That's not a message for a child who's decided, like, this week I'm actually gonna be vegetarian, or I really wanna cut my own bangs, or I hate soccer. Or like, whatever banal, normal thing that a child does to try to figure out who they are. To have a parent go, you have to do this for content. Why is the content more important than who the child is?

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:35)

Yeah, it's gets to family philosophy and, um, I, I'm just thinking as we're, as we're talking, 'cause I've also read about, uh, Insta, Insta-Mommies, if you will, who will actually, you know, set up photo shoots for the weekend that go through, you know, multiple seasons. Uh, so we've got, I've the matching holiday jammies shot followed by, okay, now we're all getting into, um, you know, new Year's party wear and now all of this and, and the amount of sugar that gets pushed on the kids while they're, while they're working for the weekend. So it's, it's just, it's a very, very interesting thing to observe. I do not believe that kids are content. And I think that consent is something that should always be requested before posting. I ask for consent before posting any image of anybody. And that makes it so that my feed probably is not very interesting for a lot of people. It's a lot of chickens and dogs, you know,

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (24:58)

Love a chicken, a chicken .

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:00)

Yeah. So are there any bigger sort of like takeaway messages that you wish people to have after reading Follow me? Or was this just a for fun?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (25:12)

No, no, I mean, this isn't quite in line with healthy screen habits, but I think it is like care work is work and so much of what I think pushes people into social media, influencer content creation is because they can't both be a parent and have a full-time job to support their families.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:34)

Uhhuh . I agree.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (25:34)

And, and so this is a way for like parents to try to make money because like, daycares are too expensive in the United States and nannies are too expensive and or there aren't enough daycares in the area where you live or all these different things. Or you know, your partner travels for work and so now you have to travel. So you can't like all these different factors. And I think if we had a universal basic income in this country where we treated care work, like work, maybe it would lessen the need for people to strive for fame because they would be able to buy the things that they need for their family and feel food secure, housing secure, all those different things. And, and this includes caring for children, but also caring for, you know, dependent adults and aging parents. And so to treat care, work like the work it is as opposed to needing to perform care work for content. And that's the only way that you get paid for it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:28)

We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Elizabeth for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (33:32)

I'm speaking with Elizabeth Rose Quinn, author of the new exciting thriller: Follow Me. Elizabeth, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (33:59)

So my goal is to do it quarterly. I'm not always on it, but a couple times a year I go through my feed for like, with this in mind for a week. And I say, have I actually engaged with this person? I don't know this account. And if I haven't or if I don't like it or something, I mute it. I don't follow, I mute it. And then the next time I come around and do what I call my little tidy up, I check that mute li st. And if that account has not occurred to me once, if I haven't searched them out to see what they've been up to, I unfollow. And it's just a way to keep my count of who I'm following and what voices I'm allowing into my eyes and face and ears at a minimum. And I have it be more intentional. I don't strike up a conversation with every single person in the grocery store. So why am I listening to every single person on this feed if I don't actually listen to them and they're just something for me to swipe past.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:00)

I love it. I love it.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (35:01)

A tidy up.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:01)

It's, yeah, it's a tidy up. And I love that you allow yourself time for a pause. It's kind of like the people who tell you to clean your closet out by taking your hangers and facing them the other direction. And then at the six month mark or at the seasonal mark, whatever hangers are facing the other way. 'cause you haven't taken those clothes out, they're like, have another look at those. Mm-hmm . So I mm-hmm . I like it. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to order Follow Me by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here today and creating great entertainment on what can potentially be a dark topic, but you've managed to make it so fun and funny.

Elizabeth Rose Quinn: (35:56)

Well, I am so happy to be here. Thank y ou so much for having me. And social media is something that we've all gotta just be really conscious of our relationship with it. We don't have to throw it out if we like it, but I hope my book helps people say, think twice about why am I, why am I following this person? , that's all I want.

S13 Episode 2: 30 Days of Sex Talks // Dina Alexander

Tue, 13 May 2025 20:07:12 GMT

"…it's amazing what your kids will come back with as you create these conversations."

~Dina Alexander

Educate and Empower Kids is an organization determined to strengthen families by teaching digital citizenship, media literacy, and healthy sexuality education—including education about the dangers of online porn. On this episode, I talk with Dina Alexander, the founder and author of several helpful books designed to help parents talk about difficult topics and sensitive subjects.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

Educate Empower Kids

Books by Dina and Educate Empower Kids:

30 Days of Sex Talks for Ages 3-7: Empowering Your Child with Knowledge of Sexual Intimacy: Amazon link

30 Days of Sex Talks for Ages 8-11: Empowering Your Child with Knowledge of Sexual Intimacy: Amazon link

30 Days of Sex Talks for Ages 12+: Empowering Your Child with Knowledge of Sexual Intimacy: Amazon link

Petra's Power to See: A Media Literacy Adventure: Amazon link

Noah's New Phone: A Story About Using Technology for Good: Amazon link

Show Transcript

H illary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Please be aware that today our episode contains references to human sexuality, intimacy, sexual development, and pornography. I am talking to someone today who is determined to strengthen families by teaching digital citizenship, media literacy, and healthy sexuality education, including education about the dangers of online porn. She's the creator of a series of books, which we are going to dive into, as well as being the founder and CEO of Educate and Empower Kids. We met at a recent conference, and I'm so happy to welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Dina Alexander!

Dina Alexander: (00:57)

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:00)

Yay! Dina, I was reviewing your background as one does prior to us sitting down .

Dina Alexander: (01:06)

I hope so. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:08)

And I see that your background is actually in recreation therapy, and I don't know that I would've put digital citizenship and media literacy in the same bucket, kind of as recreation therapy, but I know very little about that area, so feel free to educate me. How did you end up landing in the area of digital wellness?

Dina Alexander: (01:30)

Well, as a mom, I have always, of course, been concerned about the education and upbringing of my children. Recreation therapy is basically like a, it's a group therapy degree the way I did my program, but I, it all started, um, I had, we had just moved and I was kind of trying to decide what to do with my life, and I came across an article on Facebook about teen porn consumption. In my mind, it was so outrageous. I thought, no, it can't be this bad. Like, what is the big deal? And I started just, and I was like, okay, I gotta look at this though. Started researching and I was, I was shocked. I was like, no, okay, this is for real. This is a serious issue. Not just because okay, our kids are being exposed younger and younger and et cetera.

Dina Alexander: (02:28)

But I found that what was in pornography was so incredibly misogynistic and in my opinion, totally hateful toward women. And that this is where the majority of kids were/are getting their sex education. And it was just like a fire inside of me. I thought, I gotta do something. I got, and I started researching more, talked to different friends all, you know, and realizing, because at first I thought, oh, this is a Christian issue, you know, and I'm, I'm a Christian. And I thought, okay, people are, you know, it's just Christians. Like, they're just scared to talk about this. And it was like, Nope. My Jewish friends, my agnostic friends, everyone was scared to talk about sex, not let alone pornography. And I thought, how am I gonna get people to talk to their children about pornography if I can't even get them to talk to their kids about sex? And so that's why the first set of books we wrote are the 30 Days of Sex Talks. Um, and we have three books in that series for ages three to seven, eight to 11 and 12 plus. But that was the beginning of what I've been doing for the last almost 11 years of just trying to help parents raise healthy kids in the digital age.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:45)

I think that that issue that you just brought up is really misunderstood a lot because I will be talking to people and you mention pornography and people assume you're coming from this morality standpoint. Mm-hmm. And it's not that it's public health. Absolutely. So yeah, we can dive into that a little bit later. Sure. You and I just recently met at a conference called UCAP, which stands for Utah Coalition Against Pornography. Amy Adams and I, from Healthy Screen Habits were presenting; we had a vendor's table right down the breezeway from yours, and you would've thought they were giving free puppies away down the hall, because the swarm around your table was like three people deep. And so, of course, I, I had to go investigate when I saw it was you, I, I knew why people were there.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:42)

And you talked briefly about your series of books on, on talking about sexuality, but I actually knew you from your titles, Noah's New Phone and Petra's Power to See . And both of those titles are on our bookshelf at this house and have been great conversation starters at my house. But the books that you were tabling at UCAP and generating the greatest buzz were your 30 Days of Sex Talks . And you've already covered about like, you know, the age differences and stuff like that. Um, I think one of the most beautiful things about your 30 Days books is they're kind of laid out like almost a lesson plan, right? Mm-hmm . And you get a paragraph or three at the, about the background or the why behind each talk. And then you get these follow-up activities, or even better, a script or a list of questions. And I love how your material is completely thought out with ages and stages. For example, in 30 Days of Sex Talks for ages three to seven, you simply start by exploring senses and talking about all the amazing things that our bodies do. Knowing that you have that very developmental approach, like how did you approach the creation of your books with your content, with development in mind?

Dina Alexander: (06:17)

Yeah. So my bachelor's is in family studies, and that was like one of like my favorite classes. And what I had actually TA'ed for as an undergrad was in child development. And so I knew how important that was to break this down. And so you'll find, 'cause people also will hear ages three to seven?, Like, why are you talking to kids that young about sex, da da da da, not realizing that the book is mostly protective information and that it's the building blocks of creating healthy relationships, protecting our children from predators, and having positive ideas about sex. And so that's the first lesson is: my amazing body. And the second lesson is: my body belongs to me. And 'cause it's so important, again, to help those young 3, 4, 5, 6 year olds understand how incredible their bodies are, and that they are so worth protecting, and why we as parents are gonna love them and protect them the best we can.

Dina Alexander: (07:22)

Each book is broken down to help parents just have a simple conversation, particularly with that age group. You know, like some of those lessons it might only take you five minutes to do. And that's what, that's part of it. You know, think of what our three to seven-year-olds, they're only gonna pay attention for about five minutes. That's what you got. So you're gonna, you know, be simple, get right to the point. And that is what I really wanted for parents and kids to just start those building blocks, to just create that awesome foundation of knowledge, but more importantly, that awesome foundation of your kids, knowing that they can talk to you about these sensitive topics, that you are not gonna be awkward, that you're not gonna say, “I'll tell you when you're older”, or “Why are you asking me that question?”

Dina Alexander: (08:14)

It's very positive. It's, you know, we're trying to avoid shame. We're trying to help our kids see that sex is amazing, that this is a wonderful, amazing thing in our lives, and it's special, and that our bodies are special, and so we're gonna treat ourselves and other people with kindness and respect. So that's where again, like it was important to just develop these books for each age group, because as all of us know, we wanna have those age appropriate discussions. But that's also why in the 12 plus we talk about some serious stuff. And it's a lot of things that parents forget about, or they assume that our kid, their kids are going to get in sex ed class at high school. You know, forgetting that high school sex ed is, you know, pregnancy avoidance and STD avoidance. Not a lot about having a healthy relationship or knowing the difference between a healthy relationship and an abusive relationship, or

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:13)

It's very, uh, like I would say that curriculum is very much designed under the male gaze.

Dina Alexander: (09:21)

For sure. For sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:22)

It's very mechanics based mm-hmm . And does not say anything to girls about or boys for that part about like what you talk about that, that thing called intimacy, that thing called relationship.

Dina Alexander: (09:40)

Absolutely. It's so important. And we just, again, we, we forget and think about, I, you know, how busy we are as parents. That's again, why we made those lessons short and simple, even for the older kids. Like there is a lesson on emotional intimacy. Mm-hmm . There is discussion of the progression of a relationship because that is something that is falling apart in our culture. We have kids, teenagers thinking that, you know, most of a relationship is gonna happen via text and second or third date, that's when we're gonna give oral sex. And it's like a handshake. Yeah. Instead of it being special and intimate. So there's just a lot of important topics that are meant to get our kids thinking. Even, you know, those older kids, let's say you haven't had any discussions and your child is now 10, 11, 12. It's like, that's okay. Mm-hmm . You're gonna, you're you. There's never too early. It's never too late. You're gonna start getting your kids thinking about their, what they want in life, their self-respect that they are deserving of. Again, they're deserving of a healthy, good relationship.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:53)

I love it. Yeah. And I think we can't talk about sexual development with kids anymore without addressing pornography. Absolutely. And you can't talk about porn without talking about screens, which that's mm-hmm . That's how we ended up,

Dina Alexander: (11:08)

That's right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:09)

At the UCAP conference. And I just wanna interject, I want families to recognize the average age of exposure to pornography at this point is between eight and 11 years old. So you're, look, you're talking about a third grader. Yeah. And the fastest-growing sexual crimes are child-on-child sex abuse.

Dina Alexander: (11:29)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:30)

And that's because kids see something and then they're curious and so they go and they try to replicate behavior. Typically on younger children around them. So yeah, that translates to siblings, cousins, neighbors, you know, fill in the blank. So, Healthy Screen Habits, stance on porn. I wanna reiterate, 'cause I think this is so critical that we say this again and again. It's not morality based. That's right. You get to decide the values for your family, but our stance on porn comes from a public health threat.

Dina Alexander: (12:09)

I agree with that. 'cause again, like people, again, we think of it as when we as adults, right? What we see. And so a lot of parents might be like, oh, what's the big deal? Da da da dah. But we have to remember those undeveloped brains of 8, 9, 10, even 15, 16, consuming pornography and thinking that no means yes. Or that she deserves it. 'cause as you know, in porn, you know, a woman is never a woman. She's a girl, she's a sl–, she's a wh–. And those kind of behaviors, you know, it's usually there's some form of like, you know, body-punishing sex for the woman. And I think of it as every future lawyer, doctor, policeman is being raised on a diet of porn seeing this. And that's frightening. When we think of all of our future leaders, legislators having watched this and thinking there's, you know, there's no way to think less, you're gonna think less of yourself or the opposite gender when you are watching this.

Dina Alexander: (13:13)

And again, as a child and as a young person, those images are being, you know, imprinted. I know that a lot of people, you know, worry about addiction. I worry about the fact that these images basically become part of a child or teenager's belief system. That this is where it becomes part of their, you know, that sexual template is being created between eight and 12. And when these are the images that are being, you know, imprinted on their brain, that is a worry. That is, that is a huge concern. And that is a public health issue.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:51)

Yeah. We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, let's get more into your books.

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Ad Break: HSH Website

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Dina Alexander, author of 30 Days of Sex Talks. So we talked a little bit earlier about the younger kid's book. That would be the one that's for ages three to seven. And now let's talk about the slightly older kid's book. Like you've gotten into some of it a little bit, but this one is geared for kiddos age. Actually, I've got , I, I wrote it down wrong in my notes. It's eight to what's

Dina Alexander: (15:01)

The 11?

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:01)

Eight to 11. Okay. The, the, the math I had written down wasn't making sense. Okay. So we've got three to seven, and then we've got 8 to 11. And I gotta give you credit, Dina, you start out the gate in that 8 to 11 book with anatomy, puberty, mechanics of intercourse. You, I mean, a lot of stuff that quite frankly, many people, like of my generation, were handed a book or told to, um, read the box of tampons, the package insert for instruction. And, you know, so knowing that the equivalent of that today is Google, right? Yeah. Why, why do you come from this standpoint if it's not already clear? By the way, I introed that. Why do we want to be our kids go-to for sex ed instead of a Google search?

Dina Alexander: (16:01)

So when a child, they might be curious and they're doing simple, innocent searches looking for answers, especially if they have a parent that has given the message of, we don't talk about this. And there's a lot of ways that parents give that message without even realizing it. And so that is why we need to be really obvious about, you can talk to me about these things. That's why we start the conversation, you know, about a lot of these topics. But when a child has that innocent search, they heard the word vagina, they wanna see boobs. You know, this is an 8, 9, 10-year-old girl or boy, and they're coming away, instead of just seeing a few sexy pictures that are half-clothed women, like, you know, we might've seen in a Playboy magazine 30 years ago. Instead, they're coming away with some pretty violent pornography.

Dina Alexander: (16:55)

They're stumbling upon things that most adults don't even understand, that they certainly are not practicing in their sexual relationships. And again, they're coming across really misogynistic images. They're coming across things that, you know, are, you know, not intimacy-based. People don't realize there's nothing intimate in pornography. Mm-hmm . It's about the act. There's no handholding, hugging, caressing now that for quote feminist porn, they do add a tiny bit of that to draw women in a couple of kisses and a couple of caresses, but it still ends the same way. Right. With the woman on her knees or something. Right. So this is my big concern of where we wanna, of where we need to be the source we need to let our kids know they can come and talk to us and ask us anything. That's also, this is just the building blocks for amazing relationships with your kids.

Dina Alexander: (17:58)

Right. This is how they know. Maybe they have a friend who they're concerned about is suicidal. Maybe they're trying to decide if they're gay or straight. They're trying to come out, or they're just trying to figure out their own body. Yes. Maybe I'm gonna get my period and I'm scared. How do I talk? You know, who am I? They should know and feel like they can talk to mom or dad, no big deal. Like, this is not a big deal. That's why we approach these conversations calmly, matter of fact, not like this is an event and we need to be nervous and

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:33)

The Yeah. And using the correct language.

Dina Alexander: (18:37)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:37)

Like the, the word porn, when you drop it in a crowd of people is a real, it's a real, uh, conversation stopper, . But except in my house where, I mean, we talk, we talk about pornography, we talk about porn, we talk about, you know, I mean all the stuff all the time. Yeah. Because it kind of, you know, to borrow from Harry Potter, it had to be the thing that could be named to bring it out into the light. So say the words, say the name, and Yeah. And it, it, it gives you the power back for it.

Dina Alexander: (19:11)

Yeah. And it's amazing what your kids will come back with as you create these conversations. And, you know, maybe you're scared to talk about, you don't wanna go right to penis and vagina. That's okay. You know, our books, uh, start with, you can talk about relationships, you can talk about respect. You can talk about, um, puberty, whatever these other things that are maybe a little less intimidating. And you start those. 'cause especially a lot of families will have, say, the one child that doesn't wanna talk about it, maybe it's not the parents that are uncomfortable. Maybe it's one of your kids is uncomfortable. Well, that's where you start with these simpler, maybe less, like I said, intimidating topics. And you start building that foundation to talk about some of the more serious things. And what I have found over the years, each of my kids has shared incredible crazy stuff that is going on at their high school.

Dina Alexander: (20:06)

Mm-hmm . Conversations happening in the back of the classroom that you would never guess, um, that you just don't like. So I like, here's an example. So I was doing a little YouTube, um, video on predators, and so it's on YouTube, but I was describing about how predators groom kids. And I had my, my 16-year-old son, um, edit it. And he finished it, and he was like, he's like, “Mom, everything you said on that was right.” And in my mind I'm like, “Well, duh, of course it's right.” Right. But he was like, and I was like, well, what do you mean? And he goes, there was a kid in my class, and he was showing me like that he had gotten these nude photos of his girlfriend or this girl. And I asked about it, and he was like, he, I asked, how did he get that?

Dina Alexander: (20:53)

And he said, he started telling my son about it. And he was like, it was grooming. He had paid her compliments. He had made her feel special given her little gifts, these little things to basically, you know, groom this other, this girl. And so our kids, you know, again, are learning how to do these grooming behaviors. They're basically learning to be abusive by watching pornography. But when you are ab my point though, is that when you start these conversations and continue them, you are gonna, you're opening the door for your kids to tell you and talk to you about so many different things. And it is such an amazing thing to be able to, to, you know, sit at the dinner table and have your kids be so open with you. It's, it's an amazing feeling and it's an amazing bond that you can build.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:47)

Right. And so many people believe that porn specifically is a boy problem. Mm. Can you, can you talk about that?

Dina Alexander: (21:57)

I wish,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:57)

Share what, you know. Yeah.

Dina Alexander: (21:59)

It's, it's, it's really not. Because again, a few years ago, the industry, the porn industry realized, oh, we have half the population that we could make money from. So they started gearing marketing porn toward women and girls. And that's again, where we have feminist porn or a big, um, a popular search term is porn for women. And like I said, they, it's, it's got about two minutes, one minute more of kissing or romance, quote unquote in it. And then it's the same as the rest of the porn. It's still, not intimacy based. There's sometimes name calling. There's still sometimes hitting or slapping or spitting, you know, on women. There's still these things, but they, they, it's manipulative. Right. They are the absolute, they are geniuses. These are not, you know, small-time, you know, little producers. These are people who know the culture, know their craft, and know how to hook people, especially kids, into more watching more and more. And it is no way that it is just a boy problem anymore. I have spoken with so many girls, and the, you know, the worst thing we can do is treat our girls like there's something wrong with them, or they're weird if, because they have seen it or because they're tempted by it too. It's like trying to, it's like, it's like if we act like it's okay for boys to masturbate and it's not okay for girls.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:34)

Right. Right. And, and interestingly, from what I've read, girls tend to view porn together. They, it tends to be more of a group activity of, oh, look up this, look up that. Whereas boys tend to be solitary, like the the initial exposure Yeah. Will be, will be more like that. And so let's, let's swing this back around to kind of healthy screen habits land, and how can teaching our kids to be media savvy help form this more healthy sense of self that will kind of also teach them about this. Um, you know, they, they call, they refer to these things as like, digital drugs, you know? Mm-hmm.

Dina Alexander: (24:26)

Mm-hmm. I like that. So media, being media savvy means that you're able to look at, um, a video or an image and break it down, right. And to see past the overt image, right. Because we might see, um, there might be, we might view pornography and we're captivated perhaps by the sex, right? Okay. Whoa. Our human biological brains, we are gonna be drawn toward naked bodies. Just like when we're at the beach, our eyes are immediately drawn toward the skin around us, men and women. Right? That's nothing, that doesn't mean that we're bad people or we're sexist or whatever, or perverts. It's human nature that we are, our eyes are drawn towards skin, right? And so we want our kids to understand pornography or any media that they are consuming, that there are values being shared, that there are hidden messages. And that, you know, particularly with say, uh, pornography, that there, the hidden message is that, you know, typically is you can do anything you want to a woman.

Dina Alexander: (25:37)

And that, that she's less than, you know, most of the ti me in pornography, like this is a media savvy point, is that typically the woman is at a lower position than the man. She might be on her knees, on her back, whatever, but she is always beneath the man, is typically what I have seen in porn. That's a small thing, but that's a big message. Mm-hmm . If she's always down, you know, lower, lesser than him, it's a big message when she's not called a woman, when she's called a, a, even just a girl. It's the same thing that the Nazis did by never calling Jewish people, Jewish people, by trying to make them be seen as animals. It made them feel okay to treat them poorly. And it's the same thing with pornography. We don't, you know, people viewing this, don't wanna think of this as, oh, that could be my sister, my mother, my, my aunt.

Din a Alexander: (26:31)

They wanna think of this as this is some slut who wants it or deserves it. And she's, you know, asking for it, let's say. Right? So these are, you know, those, those messages, you know, like, we wanna think, like I said, it's just sex. But they are, you know, there's those, that's why, you know, a lot of kids, they're also, if they feeling bad about their bodies, that they can't, you know, both boys and girls, what they view pornography typically feel bad about their own bodies because they can't, they don't look like the ideal, you know, or they're not performing the gymnastics that's going on sometimes in pornography. Right? So these are, you know, things to help our kids. We want them to understand. And I'm not saying, Hey, sit down and show your kids porn tonight and break it down. But I'm saying maybe look at a commercial, listen to a song and break it down and talk about with your child, what is the message there?

Dina Alexander: (27:29)

You know, you can do this with like a commercial. What are they selling? Why are they acting the way they are? Why is, why are they acting like that hamburger is the best thing in the entire world? You know, what are, they're trying to get us to buy something, right? And so, same thing with pornography. They're trying to get us to stay and watch, right? So they are going to show outrageous things. They're gonna sometimes humiliate the woman in order to get us curious and thinking, what's going on there? Or why are they, you know, we're, we're hooked in because, you know, it's sex, right? It's exciting, it's interesting. But also helping our kids, this is a great discussion I had with my kids, was helping them understand that when we have sex sexual imagery, typically the violence disappears. It's hard to see that there is a, a certain level of violence in most pornography, even if that level of violence is just name calling, right. Or light slaps to the woman, right? But they tend to disappear because we're so focused in on the sex, right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:40)

Or the rest of the person disappears. Mm-hmm . It becomes very objective in that. It's like they just, it's just certain, certain. That's right. Parts. And like the complete, you know, there's no shots above the neck.

Dina Alexander: (28:53)

That's right. Again, like that,

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:54)

Like until the, until the quote unquote money shot.

Dina Alexander: (28:58)

Yeah. And so, and that's a, that's such an important point you're making because that's also how we can dehumanize mm-hmm . And not think of this as a human woman who deserves love and respect. Because if she's just an object to be screwed, then, then it, then we can, we don't have to feel guilty watching that, right? Mm-hmm . We can just look at that and ha ha, that's, you know, or isn't that, you know, hot instead of thinking of, this is a human, this is a person, you know, that deserves compassion. And so that's like, again, there was a, there's a great TED talk where, um, the speaker refers to porn as sex without hands, that you don't see hands, like say loving and caressing because they're focused in on the orifices. Right. Or they're focused in on the penis and the vagina and the act, not the human.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:50)

Mm-hmm . Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Dina for her healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break: Moms Night/ Parent Presentations

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Hillary Wilkinson

I am speaking with Dina Alexander, mom of three, and founder of Educate and Empower Kids.

Dina, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dina Alexander: (30:37)

I, there's so many things I could say, but with our conversation, I think it's so important to, again, build those amazing relationships with your kids. Whether your time to chat in your family is, if that's at bedtime, if it's at dinner, wherever you can get your kids to start sharing. And it might be as simple as asking your kids questions like, “What was the best and worst part of your day?” You know, what, um, you know, “What do you wanna be when you grow up? Who is, you know, what's something nice that you did for other people today?” And you might think, what does that have to do with screens? But that, again, when you're building that relationship, that's when you can start getting ready again for these deeper conversations to talk about uncomfortable things like porn, like masturbation, like sexual harassment, like the good things, right?

Dina Alexander: (31:31)

Like sexual intimacy and having boyfriends and girlfriends and the fun things there. You build that, and that is going to help them to be more media savvy, but it's more importantly that they're gonna talk to you when they've been exposed to porn, when they've seen something inappropriate. 'cause it's confusing to a child. It's, it's, they're simultaneously turned on and traumatized. Mm-hmm . This is so confusing for a young child. So if we can build that rapport, build that relationship to be as close as possible, then when they have seen something inappropriate, or maybe they've seen something hilarious and amazing on a screen, whatever, they wanna talk to you and share it with you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:13)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to Dina's website, which has her amazing books by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Dina, thank you so much for being here today and for helping families get through some, some tricky topics, some things that are hard to talk about.

Dina Alexander: (32:42)

Yeah.

Thank you. I loved being here.

S13 Episode 1: Video Game Expert Explains It All - And How To Stop Fighting Over Gaming! // Scott Novis

Wed, 07 May 2025 14:47:50 GMT

"Buy your games. Pay for your games."

~Scott Novis

With over 30 years in the video game industry and as the creator of GameTruck, Scott Novis has entertained more than 14 million gamers. He’s on a mission to help families build connections through play. On this episode, find out how to end games without a fight, bond with your kids in new ways, and have a great time doing it all!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.scottnovis.com

Resources Mentioned:

https://www.gametruckparty.com

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

It's my birthday. And no matter how many candles I am putting on a cake, I always love this day. I like the cards, I like the well wishes, I like the special treats. And always since the time I was very small, I always love a party. My guest today knows a lot about birthday parties. He's the founder and CEO of Game Truck, the nation's largest franchise system for mobile video game parties. He is passionate though about creating greater human connection and feelings of belonging through play. Who doesn't love that? Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Scott Novis!

Scott Novis: (00:56)

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:00)

Scott, I definitely wanna get into the whole Game Truck thing, but first let's kind of give folks some background on yourself. You have some serious street cred when it comes to video games, as I understand you were a game developer

Scott Novis: (01:17)

With Yeah. Um, I like the way I phrase, this is my one minute resume. So I have two engineering degrees. I'm named on 11 patents. My game-ology is 15 published titles for PlayStation, Xbox, and Nintendo. Um, I left the Walt Disney Company, where I was a vice president building their Nintendo Center of Excellence, to found a game truck. And so over the last, oh my gosh, it's been a minute… since the early 2000s, um, uh, we have entertained over 14 million kids. Um, so we do a lot with, and on a personal level, what I'm almost proud of more than any of the career stuff is, I was a youth baseball coach for 15 years. So I've been really involved in, um, on that coaching, play side of things for a very long time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:04)

Okay. So you've got your name on a lot of like patents and games that you've developed. You really, really know this space. And what I, just out of curiosity, what is it that you like most about video games?

Scott Novis: (02:18)

Well, so here's the thing about video games for me is for me it's applied psychology, right? It's storytelling in the second person. It's your story, it's your experience. So we're gonna give you the controller. So how do we create a situation for you that is engaging and exciting? And, um, you know, that was really it is that when we were developing games, the focus was on that type of entertainment where you're participating. So many other forms of entertainment are broadcast. So we create something and you just stand there and receive it. And I'm not That's awesome. But in a well-designed video game, we're creating an experience for you. And so you're participating, you're contributing, and if you don't play, nothing happens. So from that point of view, that's what I love the best about video games is when we created those environments and situations for people to interact in engaging in fun ways. Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:15)

And I think that the thing that most parents run up against with video games is this sort of struggle. I know, at least in my house, it's for sure, it's this struggle of how to end game time without fighting. So do you have tips on how to do

Scott Novis: (03:32)

That? Oh yeah, for sure. So, um, one of the things that, uh, I call it the cheat code, right? What's a cheat code? It's what's the little code so that I can have a superpower and get around this hard problem in a game. Um, and I wanna give that to parents. And so there's like three things, and one of them is how do you end game time without a fight? And the beauty is everything I'm gonna tell you, your kid will validate, they will confirm everything I'm saying. Step one is part of the problem for parents is that it is, you don't know how the game ends and there's not one way they end. And that's one of the things that they, there's such a broad range. There's not like one kind of video game. There's a bunch of different ones. And sometimes games can be paused.

Scott Novis: (04:15)

They can be saved whenever you want, but sometimes they can't. And that's kinda weird to parents is when they think about, what do you mean I can't save it? There are online multiplayer games that if you pause, you're dead. Like you're gonna lose everything you did. And you might even be on a team like, I don't know, a single parent all the years I coached who would walk out in the middle of a baseball game with runners on base, their son's on the mound about ready to throw the ball and grab ‘em by the scruff of the met going, we're gonna dinner now and fallen away. Nobody would ever do that. Mm-hmm . However that happens to gamers all the time because the normal cues that a parent would look at are invisible. They just see a kid wearing a headset in front of a screen. They don't see the other team.

Scott Novis: (04:59)

They can't even hear 'em. They don't know they're playing against somebody else. And they might not even be aware there's an audience. So the psychology of the experience for the player is nearly identical to that kid on the mound, is that they're in the midst of this social, interdependent, incredibly dynamic situation with an audience. And all of a sudden a parent comes in and says, “Turn it off.” It's devastating. So part of the key is you wanna understand what kind of game is this? Who are you playing and how does it end? Like, so there's pro tip number one, ask your child, “How does this game end? Can you save it?” Can you pause it? And that is a key piece of information, and you're gonna get two things out of that. One better understanding. But two, you're gonna start to have a better conversation with your kid about their gaming.

Scott Novis: (05:47)

'cause now you're showing more interest into a very specific detail and you can make them stay on topic with that. How does it end? Help me understand. How does it end? If they wander off in other details, bring it back. How does it end? And from that space, you're able to negotiate the end before they start. And so when we look at, “Hey, you know, we gotta go to grandma's at five, are you sure you wanna get on this game with your friends, um, where you don't know you're gonna be able to end it on time or not? Or would you rather play something that could be paused whenever and take it with you?” In the old days of the Nintendo DS or Game Boy, those were like, that was easy. You're like, yeah, just hit pause. Those games all stop. Um, and you could just walk away without losing any work or anything else.

Scott Novis: (06:34)

But understanding how those games end, it makes a huge difference. And then you can basically give the choice to the kid, and that reinforces their sense of agency and autonomy. Mm-hmm . You choose what game is it gonna be and how are you gonna end this so we leave on time? And that negotiation also has the advantage as it moves a little control off the parent onto the child. Sure. And that what we're trying to do is elevate that sense of be responsible, I trust you to be responsible with this. How are you gonna choose so that we meet our criteria and end on time, and in a different situation we might, you know, it's a, it's a weekend we could be a little bit more flexible. You're like, okay, are you playing with friends? I can give, you know, we can have a fuzzier ending.

Scott Novis: (07:20)

And here's my second pro tip. So at Game Truck, we end 3000 parties a month without a fight. How do we do it? Don't yell at the kids. Don't even touch 'em. Flick the lights in the room they're in. Humans are super sensitive to peripheral vision. Mm-hmm. And so if lights start going on and off, it will break their concentration and they're gonna look up at that moment. You have the opportunity to look 'em in the eye. And we recommended doing this about 10 minutes, five minutes before they have to break. And you can look 'em, and you can now make that connection in a very quiet calm tone of voice. Say you have 10 minutes to wrap this up. Almost every single online game can be wrapped up in 10 minutes. Okay. Like, it's really, really rare. And that's when you wanna know, like, you know, if they're about to win a game of Fortnite Yeah.

Scott Novis: (08:14)

That can run, but the longest run of that is like half an hour. So, but you wanna know these things like what are you caught up in? But you know, a most matches are in the five to 10 minute range. So if you're going 10 minutes, 95% of games can be wrapped up in that amount of time. There's a few that can't. But if we're dealing, you know, those games that are longer tend to be pretty extreme. Mm-hmm . So, you know, I'm, and your gamer will tell you like, this game could last this long. You wanna know that before they start. But the 10 minute warning in the flashing lights almost always -”What?” Yeah. Now you've got their attention. Now you can talk to 'em, reaffirm the choice they made. And most parents tell me that's like magic.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:57)

That's great. Um, so in the event that it's like an afternoon and the game, the, uh, room that they're playing in does not have a light switch. I'm just thinking like even if a parent like, you can wave a jacket, do something like that. Yes. Like you're saying, like a visual cue in the peripheral vision. Just a Yeah. Peripheral vision to break there. I'm just trying to think of like all the circumstances that, that might close the blinds help. Yeah. Yeah. All

Scott Novis: (09:25)

Of a sudden you change the lighting, it's the sensitivity to lighting.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:28)

Sure. Sure. That's, this is so helpful. I can tell you, as a mom of a gamer, one of my greatest concerns has always been about addictive behavior. Mm-hmm . And how can we identify addictive games versus, but I mean, to use the phrase lightly a healthy, healthy online play. Like, well, what, what is, how do you do? Are there,

Scott Novis: (10:01)

Okay, so I

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:02)

Key indicators

Scott Novis: (10:03)

The, it's a really good question. Um, and the simple rule that I've been sharing with parents is if you want the, the hack, um, buy your games, pay for your games, and you, you use the word online and if you're really concerned about it, pay for games that do not require online play. And here's why. Um, you know, I can get in all the, the, the, the technicalities behind it, but let me give you why this works. Mm-hmm . Number one, you become the customer of that developer. You, the person that cu that that developer's actually trying to satisfy. You're the person they're trying to entertain. Um, and if you take away online play, that means they're trying to design an experience that really will engage you. They're not going to make money stealing your attention and selling it to someone else. Right. Um, that is probably one of the biggest problems we have right now is that we've created companies that have insane market valuations that do not actually look after or nor do they have any interest in satisfying their users. They see the users

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:08)

As no, quite opposite.

Scott Novis: (11:09)

Yeah. Yeah. They're the fuel for their business model. Don't be the fuel for somebody's business model. It's not even like you're the product, they'll just burn you out. Yeah. And they don't care because they're gonna go get more people. Mm-hmm . Um, so when you're paying to be entertained, that developer is actually trying to create an experience that is satisfying to you. And the, okay, so here's the technical thing. What they're doing in the background is, it's called the hook loop. Um, they've developed and understood from psychology that humans don't learn the way we think we learn. There's actually some trial and error involved in it. And it's unconscious behavior. It happens below our level of consciousness. And so it's called a variable ratio reward schedule. So what they're doing is they go through this loop or they give you a queue, they want you to exhibit a behavior.

Scott Novis: (12:02)

So they're training you to behave a specific way, and then they randomly give you some reward. And what's unique to humans over all other mammals is that we can invest some of ourselves in the product. So if they can get you to customize, so this is what you hear about skins and you hear about, oh, I gotta buy this. As soon as you can put your fingerprints on it, it reinforces the value of that behavior loop. Then they go back to the queue. And the, the, the gold medal for the people that are selling addiction is self-queuing. Where the game no longer has to notify you, you're doing it yourself. So this is like that nicotine of like, oh, I gotta have one. I gotta have one. So they can get you on that little wheel. Um, they are now an action.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:43)

What do you mean by that? What do you mean the game no longer has to notify you? What do you mean by that?

Scott Novis: (12:48)

Um, so games that are driven by addiction. Another cue is that they're gonna prompt you when it's time to play. They're gonna try to notify you on your phone, your tablet. Like I am not a fan of phone and tablet games for kids at all, period. Mm-hmm . Um, I'm not a big fan of like, having those devices around. And you got a lot of great content and other people that are experts in that. My expertise is like, I, when I buy a, uh, a video game console, I'm buying a console. Nobody can text me on it. Nobody can, they can't send me alerts. They can't send me notifications. So when you, but you get a Chromebook, you get a pc, you get a laptop, what's one of the first things they ask you is, can I enable notifications? No. No, you can't, don't do that.

Scott Novis: (13:35)

So what if a game needs to notify you? There's only one reason they need to notify you. 'cause they want to get you addicted. Right. 'cause it's the cue. It is the, oh, you need to do this now. You need to water the flowers. You need to feed the digital animal. You need to check the market. Oh, there's messages. There's anything they can think of to get your attention. It's time for you to play. That's the beginning of the thing. So once they do that, then you're supposed to do something. Maybe you'll get this reward. And then if you can customize it, you become even more invested in the loop. Gotcha. And self-queuing is where they no longer need to send you notifications. Your brain is doing it for you. And here's what they're doing is dopamine is really useful as there are four hormones you need to thrive.

Scott Novis: (14:23)

And it's like dopamine, cortisol, oxytocin, and serotonin. Um, but dopamine doesn't create satisfaction. It creates craving. You wanna do it again. And so if they oversaturate your dopamine mm-hmm . You can now begin to get into that loop where you have to do it without them notifying you. So when I say pay for your games, if you buy a, typically a game console, a dedicated gaming device, you're gonna have way more control, way fewer notifications, and you can unplug the darn thing from the internet - and still play and be entertained! So a lot of the tools they have to basically trap you just, they go away and they're easy to turn off. When you're on a internet enabled device, you have to be on the internet to engage and play. You are at risk. And I will say this, I tell parents all the time, “Get rid of Roblox, delete it, never play it. Get rid of that thing.” Um, for a variety of reasons, there are absolutely zero protections for children on that platform. And they tried to charge and nobody wanted to pay for it. So they flipped over to a social media model. Um, and their $27 billion market valuation is based purely on user hours. Wow. And here's another thing, uh, um, I want parents to know, kids have a very different experience with games than adults do. 'cause their brains aren't finished.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:51)

Yeah. So let's talk about that. Yeah. Um, we gotta take a quick break. Sure. But I wanna talk about why kids are more vulnerable, vulnerable than adults online.

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Ad Break: Healthy Screen Habits For Tweens and Teens Workbook

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Hillary Wilkinson: (17:02)

I'm speaking with Scott Novis, dad of three, and video game savant. Scott, let's talk about what we were getting into right before the break. So you were talking about why kids are particularly vulnerable as opposed to like kids' brains more so than adults when comes for sure to the addictive nature of video games. Can you expand on that?

Scott Novis: (17:30)

Yeah, a hundred percent. So this ties into, um, humans are unique, uh, in a, in a couple of ways. And one of them is we're the only mammal that our brain quadruples in size after birth. Um, whales might have a bigger brain, but it never gets bigger. Um, chimpanzees are number two, their brain doubles. Our goes to fourfold. But at five years old, that brain's about 90% of the size it'll be as an adult. And it actually has more connections than adults do, then we do something else that is totally unique in the animal kingdom. Every other mammal goes from birth to reproduction as fast as possible. Our neighbor's dog had our puppy when she was three years old! But at five, humans pause for seven years. What is going on in those seven years? In those seven years? That's the window where we absorb our culture.

Scott Novis: (18:18)

Mm. If we took you and dropped you in China, in that window, you would grow up feeling Chinese. You would speak fluently. Natively. You would understand the culture, the inside jokes, like all of it. But if we pulled you like before nine, you'd forget it. If we dropped you in after about 12 or 13, um, you'd always feel like a foreigner. So, kids have a very specific job in that age range. Now, the thing that protects us from distractions is called executive function. And it's part of the prefrontal cortex. It's like right above your right eyebrow that does not begin to develop until they're teenagers.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:58)

Mm-hmm

Scott Novis: (18:59)

The thing that protects you from distraction, your children literally do not have.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:04)

Yeah. And it's crazy because, so, you know, my background's in child development and Eric Erickson specifically designated that time of ages seven to 11. Mm-hmm . He discussed things in rules of like primary conflicts. And with him it was industry versus inferiority. And they're working at that time. What they're working on is building competence. Yeah. So that's when they're developing self-confidence and when they show competence in various things. And alternatively, they can also develop a sense of inferiority when they lack competencies.

Scott Novis: (19:43)

Yes. And spot on, like all of this other, a lot of emotional foundations are being built in that area. So what is happening with boys and girls? And I'll say that because I'm in the video game industry, I have a better grasp on, let's say, you know, boy, more boys play games than girls. But this is more, it's not exclusive. Right. There's always crossover and blending. But mostly, boys seek agency. They're trying to act things out. So, video games frustrate a boy's desire for agency because they give them a simulation of agency without giving them real agency. Mm. Girls seek community, that sense of communing and social media frustrates that by giving 'em something that is a simulation of community, but it is not real community. So when we're getting into this concern about addiction, and a lot of moms come to me because it, it does make me sad 'cause they come to me when it's almost too late to do something is when their kids are 20 or older and they're stuck, how do we keep 'em from getting stuck?

Scott Novis: (20:49)

Be really sensitive in that window from that sort of seven to 12 mm-hmm . They all kids need lots of in-person face-to-face interaction. Mm-hmm . Humans are also unique. We're the only animals scholar whites of the eyes. We read facial expressions. Other animals don't do that. But if we're only staring at a piece of glass, we're literally seeing this rise of a thing. A teacher friend of mine called synthetic autism. I had a kid, the mom introduced us to a program we were running. She goes, my son is not autistic. What a weird way to introduce your kid. Why would you tell, tell somebody that? Because he behaves like he is. 'cause he grew up staring at a piece of glass. So he has no concept of how his actions, his facial expressions, his tone of voice affect anyone else, that gets developed in that window. This is why when we talk about managing screen time, it's not about hours. It's like, flip it. How much can you maximize the amount of time your children spend with other children their age so they can learn these vital human interaction, social emotional skills. Right. And that's what we want to maximize. Right.

Scott Novis: (22:03)

And you can do that with games. You can create a party at your house in your living room and get kids together. Let 'em game for a while, then kick 'em out or find other. But like, that's the thing we're trying to maximize is this social interaction with the kids.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:17)

Right. And this whole concept of kids developing agency and developing, you know, it's, it's also one of those things where it translates to clout with within their peer group. Mm-hmm . So that's where I think video games also kind of hijack this. Where it's like they start defining themselves and defining their clout by the levels that they're achieving in video games. But those competencies do not translate to just, like you were saying, the social interactions, the face, you know, but it's like competence builds confidence.

Scott Novis: (22:57)

So here's the third tip is like, when I talk about screen time, for me it's about maximizing that social interaction. So the third part, like how do you take this fake achievement? It's not exactly fake. So here's what the core games are doing. So what I tell parents all the time is never tell your kids, “Video games are a waste of time.” If you are a casual game player, let's say you play Candy Crush or something on your phone, you can be totally forgiven for thinking video games are a waste of time, 'cause those are, they're engineered to waste your time, but your kid is having a different experience. We're designing games that are built on what's called intrinsic motivation. The psychological theory is self-determination theory. We want to challenge their skill development.

Scott Novis: (23:45)

We wanna give them a sense of autonomy. They choose and give them purpose. And what we learn in video games is we can spoof purpose. Purpose means the work you do benefits somebody you know or care about. Mm-hmm. Well, there is no princess, no aliens are invading the planet that can be faked. But the first two are critical. Are you doing something hard? Can you learn how to do it? If you understand that, then when you talk to your child about their video gaming, that's what you wanna zero in on. You want to talk to them like it's a job. What are you working on? What is hard about that for you? How are you overcoming that problem? What are you struggling with? The reason you wanna do this is one, you're gonna have radically different conversations with your kids. Two, you can use that information to help them build an identity as someone that faces hard problems and persists until they develop skill.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:37)

Not just as a gamer.

Scott Novis: (24:38)

Correct. So you can say, well, remember when you were working on this thing in Pokemon and you had to work really hard to go find that shiny Pokemon. Tell me how this is different. Mm-hmm. Tell me how this assignment you're working on in school is different and you can begin to translate their personal experiences into other experiences in their life. And I've heard from other parents that they've had more success with this of leveraging something they're passionate about to get interested in other areas than it is to say that's a waste of time. 'cause the kids don't hear that video games a waste of time. They hear facing hard problems, developing skills and persisting is a waste of time. 'cause that's what a game is to them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:20)

Mm-hmm .

Scott Novis: (25:21)

Yeah. So you can use that mechanism to, and to funnel a conversation and then use what they tell you in the conversation to help them build their self-image as someone who does hard things.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:34)

Right. Right. And just little parenting hack from this side of the, this side. Uh, the, one of the best ways also to build that competence is through chores. Yeah. As it turns out, you know, being a part of the collective effort of just keeping the household running. And that's, I mean, my wife, you talk about something that never goes away, is the laundry.

Scott Novis: (25:56)

Yeah. Well, and my wife used game terminology with the kids like, Hey, you can grind out, you know, leveling up in the game. Why don't you grind out your laundry?

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:05)

Perfect,

Perfect.

Scott Novis: (26:06)

Right. And they're like, okay.

It's just like, but there's this, you're taking the context of where they're, they're exercising some kind of agency and you're pulling it into the world where you gotta do real things too. What I wanna do is give parents tools to take what gaming can do for kids and make it easier for them to, we want kids to have a better future, right? Yeah. We want them to be, you know, not get stuck and see themselves as somebody, somebody that can act in the real world. And, you know, to do that. Step one is how do you control screen time? You gotta be able to end games on time without a fight. Mm-hmm . Two balance screen time with appropriate social interaction.

Scott Novis: (26:55)

And you can even incorporate some screen time into social development with friends. That's why I'm a big fan of consoles. They're in front of a TV and a couch and four controllers. I'm not a big fan of PC gaming. You know, one, one keyboard, one screen, one chair, never share, it's isolationist. Um, but you know that I'm not always gonna win that fight. But it's like, if you're just getting started out, keeping it social and playing with your kids, um, makes a huge difference. And then finally that conversation is, you know, “What's hard about this for you? How are you overcoming that problem?” And getting them to see, to think about the problem. That way you can use that structure with other things they're struggling with. So you're building that identity of what you said, here's how we build competence. And so they're learning it in the game. Bring it into the real world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:47)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Scott for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: I'm speaking with Scott Novis, video game developer, dad of three, and founder of Game Truck! Scott, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Scott Novis: (28:28)

Pay for your games. Buy games that do not require the internet to play. And you're going to radically improve your chances of getting quality entertainment that is not addictive, that you can enjoy with your kids. Um, and you can have a lot more confidence that they're gonna have a good experience. And all the things I've talked about earlier of ending game time without a fight become much, much easier. Be the customer of the developer. So buy your games that don't require internet play. If you use those two criteria, you have a much better chance of picking games that are safe for your kid.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:05)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to Scott's website and Game Truck by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Scott, thank you so much for sharing your vast video game knowledge with us today and helping a lot of families, I think come to a middle ground on gaming.

Scott Novis: (29:36)

I, you know, we're, it's not going away, so how do we make it work for us?

S13 Teaser: Season 13 and Summertime Planning!

Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:24:19 GMT

"The last thing that any of us needs in the month of May is one more thing to stress out over (I’m going to help you get through it!)"

~ Hillary Wilkinson

May is short for MayHEM! We are all trying to get through performances, culminating activities, teacher appreciations, prom, and graduations, etc…

The last thing I want to do is give you one more thing to stress out over!!

Instead, this season on the pod, I am talking to camp directors who run experience camps that focus on parent-child bonding, great summer reads that are about momfluencer life, and some directors of movies that will be great to watch with your kids to foster discussion. In short, you got this!

We are all careening towards summer, let me help ease the path!!

Resources

Book an assembly or parent presentation with Healthy Screen Habits here !

No transcript available for this episode.

S12 Episode 13: Spring Break Challenge! // Hillary Wilkinson, M. Ed

Wed, 09 Apr 2025 18:08:57 GMT

As we wrap up another season of Healthy Screen Habits, it’s the perfect time to unplug and recharge for Spring Break! This season, we’ve learned so many great ways to balance screen time with real-world activities. Whether you’re exploring the outdoors, diving into a new hobby, or simply enjoying time with loved ones, now’s the chance to create memories away from the screen.
Here’s to taking the lessons from Season 12 and bringing them to life this Spring Break! Let’s step outside, breathe in the fresh air, and make the most of our time away from screens.

S12 Episode 12: Mind, Body, and Tech? // Michael Davis // MindfulBytes.io

Wed, 02 Apr 2025 05:00:02 GMT

"…start early and stay mindful."

~ Michael Davis

Overcoming a challenging childhood in the South, Michael was inspired by a transformative teacher to unlock his potential. He served 22 years in the U.S. Navy, developing advanced cybersecurity algorithms. With over 25 years of cybersecurity experience, Michael is now a Ph.D. candidate in Cyberpsychology at Capitol Tech University. He created MindfulBytes.io, a groundbreaking K-5 curriculum enhancing digital well-being. The program boasts an 85.7% student engagement rate and a 40% reduction in cyberbullying incidents. His mission is to safeguard the digital well-being of the youngest generation, ensuring every child can thrive in our increasingly digital world.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For more info: MindfulBytes.io

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

So often when we hear about cybersecurity, we put our thinking in defense mode, you know, how to protect and safeguard our identities or information. And none of these things is anything that I associate with the term mindfulness, which is why when I heard about my guest today, I really wanted to know more. With over 25 years of cybersecurity experience, including 22 years in the US Navy, he developed cybersecurity algorithms for Los Alamos and the Pentagon. Using all of this knowledge, he founded the cybersecurity firm Merrick Security Systems. And the way I understand it had a moment of clarity while on stage giving a TED Talk that changed the way he thought about digital citizenship. I'm gonna let him tell that story, but welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Michael Davis.

Michael Davis: (01:08)

Thank you, Hillary. It's an honor to be here. I really appreciate the, uh, the access to your world and your audience, and I'm a fan of course. And I'm so happy to be here. So, thank you, .

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:19)

Thank you. So, I, I, I really, I, I kind of want you to break this down for us. Okay? Yeah, no worries. You're, I mean, I, the, the one I saw you were on the TEDx Albuquerque stage, giving a talk on cyber happiness. And digital citizenship. Yes. And what happened?

Michael Davis: (01:41)

Oh my gosh. I, do you have another hour for this podcast? , uh, . So, there was a moment of clarity that I experienced, and this was after, as you have have expressed, my 22 years in the Navy, I've worked in corporate, uh, Boeing, and Los Alamos. And I had a whole lot of work that was, uh, you know, on my resume, so to speak, around cybersecurity. But in this moment around, uh, and I had been obviously asked and very, you know, the, the humility and the gratitude to be on a TEDx stage, uh, is there's no, there are no words. So it was a beautiful expression to be asked. And then, of course, the rehearsing and all the things. Um, so it wasn't just like an overnight success in that regard. But after, uh, everything was sort of on in place and we're in backstage, and I'm up next, of course, there were like 14 speakers.

Michael Davis: (02:28)

And, um, I remember midway through the talk. I had this almost out-of-body experience. Now, this is a, like an eight-minute talk, so I'm not talking like, you know, 20 minutes, but I, around a four-minute mark or so. There was a moment where I looked in the audience and I could not see the audience. I couldn't see the, who I was speaking to. And I felt, I felt alone for, for like a split second. And then I realized, oh, no, Mike, you're just speaking to the wrong audience. It became that clear to me. It didn't mean, it didn't mean that the parents and the teachers and the, the adults in the audience didn't count, but the real audience were kids and this mindfulness as a service, this cyber happiness talk. Um, out of that weird moment, I, I finished the talk, obviously, but I left the stage and, and, and, and immediately went back to my drawing board in my head and said, I need to take what I just said for about eight minutes or so, and develop a curriculum that speaks to kids in this space who are learning about technology.

Michael Davis: (03:32)

The, the typical 6-year-old who's getting dad's old iPad or mom's old iPhone or whatever that, whatever they're getting handed. Um, let's teach them cyber ethics. Let's teach them what does it feel like to be in this kind of technology space, um, without any directions other than press this button and click there, and then you're dooms scrolling for two hours later. Mm-hmm. So it wasn't a moment of, um, it wasn't a moment of of, of sort of this, uh, space of, I don't know what to do next. It was, it was the most clear moment of what to do next.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:08)

It sounds almost like spiritual, to be honest with you. It, it feels, it has that like yeah. That, that energy about it, you know,

Michael Davis: (04:17)

100% Hillary, I, I did not think of it that way in that moment, but looking back now and hearing you say that, that's exactly what it was. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:25)

That's powerful

Michael Davis: (04:26)

On this earth to kind of provide a purpose. And in that moment, I think I was, I, I was gently nudged, gently nudged, that purpose space and, uh, Mindfulbytes.io, uh, grew from that experience.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:38)

I love it. Okay. So now you've created Mindfulbytes.io. Yes. By kind of integrating, as I understand it, and I mean, feel free to correct me for sure, but cybersecurity education with mindfulness practices, and I'm having, like, I, maybe my brain's too small. I, what does this look like? I don't . I am, I'm having a hard time visualizing - it's a K-5 curriculum. Correct. And I, I don't, can you maybe take me through a lesson?

Michael Davis: (05:12)

Of course. Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:13)

Talk me through what does it look like and how it gets employed? Yeah.

Michael Davis: (05:18)

So the, the sort of thesis question that we ask kids, and this was the question I asked myself even on stage, is what is the space in between me and the device? And this interesting question around what is the space in between me and the device opens up a different kind of, uh, response. Meaning like, am I scrolling? Is it me that's scrolling, or is it my, is it my anxiety that's scrolling? Is it me that wants to go and learn how to, um, bake a cake on YouTube and now I'm looking at dog videos for three hours? Like, what part of that is me? And I think that, that, that sort of inquiry that we're asking young kids who, in this case K-5, a lot of these kids are not even on, not even on social media or not even on devices, but we're asking the question of like, what do you notice how you feel?

Michael Davis: (06:05)

It sounds very therapeutic, but it really is asking the kind of user, which is what we are is digital users. What is the space in between me and the device? How do I determine if that's me that's struggling, or me that's scrolling or me that's happy? Like what does that emotion look like? Mm-hmm . And so, most of the lessons that kids are getting earlier on around technology is focused on this hacking and getting into like, systems and all the things.

Michael Davis: (06:51)

And those things are valid too, but we need to also think about the human part of that too. Like, who am I right now? The reason I started this company wasn't 'cause I was bored. I felt compelled. 'cause I didn't know who I was in the technology space. But all that, those years of experience, I didn't know who I was. I was just using Instagram like everyone else. I was alarm clock in the morning to Instagram, and I would be in my bed and an hour later on looking at videos at the morning. Um, but these kids, they have no idea what they themselves are into. They're just handed a device. And most parents, and most people, uh, within the school system don't have their bandwidth or their energy to do this sort of deep dive.

Michael Davis: (07:36)

So this curriculum was built from a pain point for that level of work that needs to be, uh, discussed more often with kids earlier. Mm-hmm . Um, many of these programs that open up psychology of technology don't talk about that, that space in between, because they're just not as a space. I think the, I think the investment isn't there yet. The investment is in the adolescent space and maybe the teenager space. 'cause we're seeing a lot more statistics there around suicidal ideations and cyber bullying and online things like that. But how do we get to the before picture, the sub thought, the self-thought, the thought before the thought.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:11)

Okay. Okay. So I, I guess I'm, I guess I'm unclear, like Sure. How, how do you approach that with Exactly. I'm in, I'm in classrooms all the time. Okay. Right. I mean, I, I'm a teacher. I, um, I substitute teach currently, but, um, I've had my own classrooms. I understand this wanting to explore what's the driver behind you being online? I, I understand all of that. Right. But how, how do you build that foundation?

Michael Davis: (09:50)

So right now, we're a pilot obviously. 'cause we were like two years into this curriculum. Um, there's no technology. We don't introduce technology to kids. This is a technology-less curriculum. So I come in for about a week, wait for about an hour or so, uh, with these schools. Right now, we have three schools in our pilot program. And we, talk with kids. We actually have these exercises. For example, we talk about social media, uh, by using the telephone game, the telephone game. We all know that game. Whether one kid whispers a thing and it goes around the room, and by the time, by the time it gets to the 18th or 19th kid, nine outta 10 times the, the, the, the thing has changed. Right? But we use that as an example to describe the noise of social media, the noise of texting, the noise of interacting with someone else online.

Michael Davis: (10:36)

And once we have kids in this set, in this particular scenario, whisper the thing that needs to be said, but every other kid is loud and distracting and yelling and jumping around, I'm also playing a role in that space as well. And so, by the time it gets to the end, naturally there's, it's distorted. But that's one lesson plan that we talk about in terms of how do we access better relationships online, well, let's just go to the person directly versus trying to sift through the noise of the internet. Why not go to the person directly? And that's just one lesson when we teach kids. But like, there's a problem with someone's post. Someone posts something about, I hate apples. You don't like that? Maybe go to the person directly, because you can avoid all that noise. It can be a direct communication space. So it doesn't necessarily, uh, deter kids from using this technology or makes 'em feel anxious. It just gives 'em awareness of how much power they have to be more clear, more concise, and have agency over their, their, their language in that space. Yeah. And that's just one example of how we use telephone game to do that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:33)

Thank you for that example. I do better in concrete. So I know, I, like I said, I, I'm an elementary educator, so I, I like, oh, telephone game. I know what that looks like. In this space of digital wellness, we kind of get often get into this debate of digital citizenship versus digital literacy. Right? And it seems like MindfulBytes.io is, am I correct in understanding it's more of a digital citizenship chapter.

Michael Davis: (12:10)

It's more of the, it, it, it doesn't lean towards that. I wanna be clear. It's not entirely citizenship, but as it is, as it is more about stewardship. Like, how do I have stewardship over my own body uhhuh versus coming in and knowing a thing or two about technology? Okay. I know my body more the spidey senses that that instinct

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:32)

Thank you. Right? It's so important because that's. You know, when we talk about relationships, it's so hard to remember our biggest relationship is with ourself. And that's where tech is fracturing so many parts. So teaching that just the mind-body awareness. I, yeah. I, I get it Michael.

Michael Davis: (12:51)

That's, that's, that's it. It

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:54)

Took me a minute, but I got it. Finally!

Michael Davis: (12:57)

Believe me, we're still evolving in the language still evolving in this concept. And it's still, to this day, two years later, I'm still figuring out, oh, that is, let me tweak this, let make this doesn't make sense. Oh. Uh, ideally that's just a lifelong learner kind of mindset anyway, too. But ideally, no, that's what we're asking kids, is to identify what's in your body. Is it you have feelings in your stomach before you get onto whatever? Uh, we also teach, oh, go ahead.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:21)

Oh, I was gonna say, and to that point, if you weren't somebody who was so dialed in and connected with your self-experience, you may not have been open to receiving that “aha moment” on the TEDx stage. So that absolutely illustrates why this type of connection to self, to reading the room, so to speak, why that's so important.

Michael Davis: (13:46)

There's so much coming at us, at any, any given point in time, and we, and I, and it, it asks a real, real strong question to slow down and breathe. Mm-hmm . What if I just breathe before I log on? Yeah. What if I just actually step back and maybe take a walk around the office or around my, whatever I am before I check this email? There's a reason why we send an email or we type an email out and it's just feeling anxiety. We put it into the drafts folder for a day or two. Let, let, let me get out of that anxiety feeling. 'cause in that space between me and the email is anxiety. Yeah. I don't call it that, but that's what it is. Mm-hmm . But if I didn't, if I didn't pause enough or just sit down in my body to assess that, I would just send the email out. And I would have a lot more chaos on the back end of that. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, we're seeing in our curriculum that kids are, are more open to, just sitting down and asking, how am I feeling about this? Mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:45)

Okay.

Michael Davis: (14:46)

Before I do it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:47)

Yeah. So I see on your team, there's yourself, you've got a chief, a chief people officer, and a researcher who is interested in the emerging field of cyber psychology, which we're gonna cover that later. 'cause I'm, my brain is spinning on that. But, um, who wrote the curriculum for your program?

Michael Davis: (15:08)

Mostly, uh, myself and a researcher, she did a lot of the initial kind of push, and I sort of brought it up to, to level of, uh, publishing. And so we're still, um, designing an element for I, 'cause obviously every every grade level, it's K-5, every grade level has a different tinge and language around that. Sure. So I wrote the curriculum mostly, uh, I didn't tell you this earlier, but I'm also a PhD student in cyber psychology. So this is actually part of my grand, sort of dissertation space, uh, around MinfulBytes and the K thru five sort of early childhood education space. Awesome. So, um, but I wrote the curriculum and we are still designing and repurposing some of the language around what it is currently.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:51)

Okay, got you. So, um, I just, my background, like I said, is in education and developmentally appropriate practice. So I was just wondering where you get your kind of like, for developmentally appropriate practices where…

Michael Davis: (16:07)

Oh my gosh. I, I, I, I have a lot of friends with teachers, , a lot of friends who are administrators, uh, who, who have, who. I've just thrown this to them and, you know, and they've given me lots of feedback. So I, and in full disclosure, I'm not a teacher. I'm not, I've never been in the classroom, so to speak, uh, as more, uh, as teachers have, have certified me like that, I'm, I'm really the, I'm kind of like the crazy Uncle Patch Adams meets cybersecurity guy. He comes in and talks about these type of, type of, uh, emotional, social, emotional, uh, triggers. But, uh, I'm, I'm really fortunate to have worked with Project Zero at Harvard on some of this work, and a lot of researchers in this space, they're smarter than me and have a lot more weight on the table, have helped me design some of the language around the curriculum as well. I shouldn't say, I wrote the curriculum. I've been a steward of the curriculum, uh, for this time. And I've been able to be, be very fortunate to have people around me who, who've assisted in this space with me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:03)

When we come back, let's talk more about the challenges that kids are facing with tech and how Mindfulbytes.io can help them build that resilience and responsibility.

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I'm speaking with Michael Davis from Mindfulbytes.io, an organization that empowers children to become responsible, resilient, and mindful digital citizens by integrating cybersecurity education with mindfulness practices. So these are all super important, wonderful things. What I'm wondering, what I mentioned before the break, can you explain what the field of cyber psychology is? Yeah. I've never heard that term before.

Michael Davis: (18:36)

Yeah. No. It's something that's kind of nuanced. It's been around for a few years. I wanna say like the last 10 years it's been sort of thrown out to some, uh, a book here, a book there. Um, but just for the record, cybersecurity, in my years of working in this space has always been psychological. There's always been a hacker versus a fill in the blank psychological profile. There's always been, how do I get into this access point using this person's wellness? If they're tired that day, if they're hungry that day, how do I get through that?

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:02)

Totally makes sense.

Michael Davis: (19:03)

Social engineering, so it's not nuanced in that way, like we're just calling it cyber psychology, but it really is, uh, has been around for a long time in terms of cybersecurity, best practices. But the term itself, cyber psychology, um, essentially a study of how, uh, technology influences both our emotions and, uh, our decision making while using devices, uh, such as the internet or things like that. I mean, perfect example is doom scrolling. That's a real thing that we all suffer. Even professional people like me, um, there's a reason why that's happening. Um, and there's also like, have, you know, screen time. The, the kind of meltdown that we see kids are experiencing now, uh, where I want more hour or else I'm gonna have a screaming match, or I'm gonna hurt myself. Those, that level of anxiety shows up in there. That's a sort of a cyber, psychological, uh, space.

Michael Davis: (19:54)

Um, you know, anxious check notifications. I mean, no one likes to get the text that says, Can we talk? And no context. You're just like, oh, what, what did I do? So you're automatically in this trigger space. So cyber psychology is no different than food psychology or financial psychology around money. Um, we have yet to really expand and contrast this language around devices and companies that you, that put out products. Because if you didn't notice, uh, the, the opposite side of cyber psychology is used to attract you, uh, from big companies. And so there's a reason why colors are used on your screen. If you ever, on another example, if you ever take your phone and just gray scale your phone out, see how you respond to that in a day. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:40)

Yeah.

Michael Davis: (20:40)

See, it can be time to check your phone, see how many times to look at your phone. Chances are you, you won't check as much. 'cause those vibrant colors are not gonna pop up after you asking to be pressed. Um, so these are sort of examples. I remember when I, uh, when I was sort of looking at this, this as a, as a, uh, as an education space. I was assistant engineering PhD program before. So I switched over, uh, and to this program. 'cause I felt it was more compelling. But I remember looking at my phone one day and I was looking at something online. I was just kind of scrolling through whatever. And I looked up at the sky, I looked up around me, and the thing that was in front of me, which is real world, like wherever I was that day, was blurry. I looked down at my phone, it was clear, and I was like, wow.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:26)

Wow.

Michael Davis: (21:27)

That's where this, so that's what this work entails, is it's like the thing that's in my phone was at this moment was more interesting than what was happening at, in, in real life, Uhhuh. And so I realized in that moment, this work is important, not just for me, but for kids and parents and educators. So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:43)

One of the things that, like as I visited your website and looked around, I, it, and it really impressed me about your program Yes. Was the focus on continued education for teachers and the recognition of the importance of the student-teacher connection, the relationship there. Yeah. Um, so as we all know, AI is growing in leaps and bounds. Yes. Like every day. And there are schools that are emerging that are going teacher-free. And I'm talking specifically about the Alpha school in Texas. Yes. That relies completely on AI for instruction. and adults at this school, adults at this school, are called guides. And they're actually not, they're, it goes beyond not being encouraged to instruct. They are not allowed to instruct, but they steer kids to search for answers and instruction online. And I, I have big thoughts about this , but I, I recognize my bias. Okay. I completely recognize my bias. So I thought, Ooh, you are exactly the person I wanna talk to about this as this expert on the merging between online life and mindfulness. Like, what, what do you think about replacing human teachers with AI? What, how does that land for you?

Michael Davis: (23:12)

Oh my God, this is a juicy question. Hillary. I, uh, lemme think about this question. I have mixed feelings about this. Um, um, 'cause obviously AI has incredible potential to educate and kind of bring us to a new frontier, how we learn. Um, but my concern is really the replacement of human teachers in general. I think there's, it's a very slippery slope. I don't want to lose. And part of our curriculum is focused on human-centric approach to cybersecurity. And so there needs to be, I think, I think the risks are in many ways, um, kids learn through relationships. They learn through empathy, they learn through social cues. And, uh, I see it in the classroom with me. There's a, a really deeper eye contact. I get to kind of be crazy. I'm, and I get to actually, you know, be a human in front of these kids.

Michael Davis: (24:02)

And AI can't replicate that. I don't know if that's actually even a conversation we should be having right now, . But the emotional intelligence and sort of, sort of the critical thinking can't be developed by an algorithm in this way alone. I think there's some factors that we can talk about around where that does play a role, but not alone. And I get that these teachers are called guides. But my, wow. I think it's, I, I think, I think this is a slippery slope here, because it can become an overreliance on the AI to do the thing that humans have been doing for centuries. And maybe there's some space around creativity and, and problem solving that that, that an AI can help a student sort of overcome. But there needs to be some, there needs to be a better relationship with the human involved versus kind of over, uh, extending to the AI technology space around kids development.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:53)

Um, yeah. Yeah. My concern leads back to, I mean, not to, I, I don't mean to hijack this, but No, no, no, no. We're just my, yeah. My concern is around like, empathy building. You know, we already are very aware that there's an empathy gap that has emerged over the years. Right. And I, I don't know how AI would be able to teach that. I feel like it's, I don't know. I have so many concerns. 'cause I also get into this like, you know, the whole hive mind type thing. Like, is there, is it truly creative? Is it not? I don't know. I have a limited understanding of what generative AI can, can, uh, can do. Yeah. So I,

Michael Davis: (25:48)

Yeah. I think, I think the, the thesis is really is are we, are we placing AI as the pilot or the co-pilot mm-hmm . I think if we could really define what those, what those boundaries are, then that might be a, a sort of a safer space for this AI injection to the classroom. But teachers, undoubtedly, teachers are irreplaceable. I don't, I don't say that lightly. I, no technology can replace an actual human who has the kind of feeling space and the empathy space, as you mentioned, to connect with the students learning, uh, development space.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:20)

Right. Well, you, I, I feel like I remember reading, you had a transformational relationship with a teacher in your younger years. I did. Didn't you? This is,

Michael Davis: (26:29)

This is exactly why I bring this up because my company's name is Merrick, uh, for a very specific reason. Uh, my eighth grade math teacher, Mr. Sharon Merck, uh, sat me down at 13 and was like, “Hey, you're screwing up and you know, you're gonna, I can, I can see you hiding in my class.” And she didn't say it in a way that that was profound. But some reason that day, I was completely in the receptive stage of my life to receive that message from her. And so when I started this company a hundred years later, I didn't have a name, obviously. And I thought about that moment when I was 13. And, and I, I wanna be clear, I was hiding on purpose. I didn't wanna be too smart. I didn't be too kind of in the back. I wanted to be kind of in the middle, kind of class clown status.

Michael Davis: (27:15)

And she did not accept that one bit. She was my math teacher that I had to pass. So I couldn't just like, fake it till you make it. And so that moment became a defining moment for me at 13. So Merrick and Merck obviously became a very common name in the domain space. And Merrick, I just switched letters around me, it merit, and that became the story. So I, I have a vested interest in this education space Sure. And having a teacher, and I don't think an AI, you know, could have done that at that moment. I don't think an AI laptop on a, you know, AI program or whatever that looks like, uh, with me being sort of hanging out with guides all day, I don't think I, I don't think that would've happened that way. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:56)

I love that story. Thank you so much for sharing that story. Thank you. I hope, I hope is, is she, is she aware that that's how you got the name for your company

Michael Davis: (28:05)

In 2018 I, I literally went back to, uh, when I started this company, uh, I went back to that middle school website and, and she was on there. So I sent her a note, a video note of this same story, and said, you don't remember, you may not remember me, but, uh, and she wrote me back. She says, “Actually, I do remember you.” Which is crazy. 'cause, you know, 50 years of teaching. Uh, and that was her last year teaching. She retired that same year.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:29)

Wow.

Michael Davis: (28:30)

So it was a treat. It was a treat, yeah. To be a part of that journey with her. And obviously she didn't know that story, and she didn't know the impact. And honestly, had I not really opened up to this company's journey, I would've probably found that story some other part of my life. But it opened up in that way for me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:10)

Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Michael Davis for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (30:46)

I'm speaking with Michael Davis, founder of MindfulBytes.io. An organization that strives to help create a digitally responsible generation of children, recognizing that tech is a tool for empowerment, connection, and positive change. So, Michael, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway. That listeners can put into practice in their own homes. Yes. What's yours?

Michael Davis: (31:30)

Oh my goodness. Um, I think for us and for this program and for, uh, our curriculum and work we're doing behind this work, um, the advice I have is start early and stay mindful. Um, we must focus on early intervention. And I know it sounds silly, but asking quick kids abstract questions around their feelings actually opens up a different conversation than maybe you don't know, uh, even exists. And so it's not about online behavior, it's not about Stu uh, literacy. It's about finding a voice that they can speak to and have agency over their, over their digital usage. And so I think when we can get to the point where, um, technology doesn't scare us, we can own part of that and actually have fun with it and have agency over that. So I think our advice is really start early, and stay mindful in this space, because I, technology's not going anywhere. And as we've discussed in this call, AI's not going anywhere either. But ideally, if you start early and get an early intervention space, um, and a healthy space, it doesn't make it weird. It makes it exciting. And it's a very common, you know, experience. We all get to share in this world, and our youngest users are their most vulnerable. So let's start early.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:46)

Great. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to Mindfulbytes.io. You do this by going to the Healthy Screen Habits website, and click the podcast button to find this episode. Michael, thank you so much for being here today and for all your work in the world to build resilience and digital wellness, and yes, awareness and health, all of the things.

Michael Davis: (33:14)

Thanks Hillary. It's been an honor to be here. I'm, I'm a fan of yours, so thank you so much for having me on here. This has been a, this has been a real treat! Appreciate you.

S12 Episode 11: Its A Teen’s World - Here’s How To Talk To Them About It! // Erin Walsh

Wed, 26 Mar 2025 05:00:03 GMT

"…it is often a delayed gratification activity, the art of raising teenagers."

~Erin Walsh

Erin Walsh is a parent, speaker, and author who helps families and educators navigate the complexities of adolescents, parenting, and technology. As co-founder of Spark and Stitch Institute, she translates research into practical strategies. She is also the author of It's Their World Teens, Screens, and The Science of Adolescence , a great new book. In this episode, we talk about ways to reduce friction and create happy boundaries for our teens.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Spark & Stitch Institute

Get Erin's Book: It's Their World: Teens, Screens, and the Science of Adolescence

Childhood 2.0: Youtube link

The Social Dilemma

Show Transcript

Hilla ry Wilkinson: (00:01)

My guest today is a parent, speaker, and author who helps families and educators navigate the complexities of adolescents, parenting, and technology. As co-founder of Spark and Stitch Institute, she translates research into practical strategies. She is also the author of It's Their World: Teens, Screens, and The Science of Adolescence , a great new book that is coming out very soon on May 13th, although you can pre-order it now, which is always appreciated. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Erin Walsh.

Erin Walsh: (01:05)

Thank you so much, Hillary. Thank you for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:07)

I'm thrilled you're here, honestly. And Erin, one of the things that I love about Spark and Stitch is not just that you apply a science-based approach to relating with teens, that includes developmentally appropriate practice. Mm-hmm. Because each kind of age and stage has their own set of things that we dance with, but also that you work with your Dad! I love this! How, did that happen and how did screen time become your focus?

Erin Walsh: (01:40)

Yeah. Thanks for, I love that you brought that up. It is, it is fairly unique and I never would've guessed when I was a teenager that I would spend my life working with my own dad on issues related to media and child and adolescent mental health and wellbeing. Um, and I, I got into the work in a bit of a roundabout fashion. So when I was a teenager, my parents started one of the first education and advocacy organizations looking at media's impact on child health and development. So it was called the National Institute on Media and the Family and its mission was to maximize the benefits and minimize the harm. So I, I am sure that sounds nice to you. I'm sure it sounds nice to all the listeners. Um, but let me remind you that I was in high school at the time. So I think initially I never would've imagined my relationship with my parents' life work was, you know, arguments about why I had to do my homework before I played video games, and why I had to think critically about things I was seeing on screens.

Erin Walsh: (02:28)

Um, and I sort of went off into the world ready to chart my own path as many young people do. But of course, I started looking at the world around me and thinking about how the world was changing. And importantly, I started working with children, and I also started working around issues related to body image and self-esteem. And it turns out that you can't have a conversation about body image without talking about , the powerful role of screens and technology in our lives. And I realized, um, in my early twenties, I had a, a local expert I could call, and that was my dad. Uh, and that was sort of the beginning of, of me returning to that conversation and realizing that I didn't want it to just be his generation or mine or now my own teenagers. Um, but that we really all wanna be a part of the conversation about how do we live well in a world dominated by screens. So, um, we've been working together for the last, the last 20 years, uh, translating the science and, and hopefully sparking important conversations just like, just like your work, we really see you as colleagues.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:28)

Yeah. I love the whole circle back because I think, you know, always healthy screen habits, we want to come from a place of help and hope. Yeah. And you know, there are many times during our, uh, parenting of teen years, we, we really need the hope. And,

Erin Walsh: (03:50)

We sure do!

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:51)

Hearing that full circle cycle goes, oh, look at, look at, look at what we're working on so hard so that we can,

Erin Walsh: (04:00)

Exactly. Yeah. And we're not, we're not really sure where those seeds that we plant. It's not like I turned to my dad when I was 16 and said, thank you so much for this mind blowing advice, and I can't wait to spend my, my life co-creating a digital solutions or digital wellbeing solutions with you. And of course not. I pushed back, I was annoyed, I rolled my eyes. But those seeds, uh, did grow in, in my own life. We're not, we're not quite sure how they're gonna grow in our kids' lives, but it is often a delayed gratification activity, the art of raising teenagers. Um, and we're not quite sure how, how it's gonna end up, but that, that hope that they will kind of come back to us maybe a after adolescence and say, Hey, you, you were onto something and I'd like to kind of join you, uh, in this work.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:43)

Wonderful. Your work focuses, as you can tell already from me talking, your work focuses on connection and relationship health. And now I am very aware that as teens get older, or as our kids grow into their teenage years, developmentally it's appropriate. And although it's not easy to live with, but they, they tend to wanna pull away both online and offline. Yeah. And how do you recommend we show up for our teens without being overwhelming or smothering?

Erin Walsh: (05:18)

Yeah. That isn't, that, that's like the tender art of raising a teenager. And I do think this is where it helps that I not just have my spark and stitch hat on, but also my parenting hat with a rising high schooler and a rising middle schooler next year. Um, you know, you just noted this sometimes wrenching, overwhelming experience that, you know, psychologists talk about is individuation, which is just a fancy way to talk about this developmental task of our kids wanting to go out into the world to figure out who they are, um, and where they belong and, and where they wanna go in the world. And that developmental task, as you noted, often involves pushing us away. Um, in order to figure out who they are, they sometimes have to draw a sharp distinction between who they are and who, who we are until they maybe come back to us in their early twenties and work with us.

Erin Walsh: (06:09)

Yeah. Uh, or whatever path that takes. So I think, you know, what we wanna remember is that that's developmentally right on time. Um, it's easy for me to take it personally, even though I know the science and remembering, oh, this is, this is a developmental task. And to remember that, especially when we're talking about things like screens and technology and social media, um, we know from the data that teens do want to hear from us, they actually may not turn to us and tell us they want guidance, but they tell researchers, um, Hey, I do wanna hear from the caring adults in my, in my life. So we can lean on that a little bit and both respect their autonomy, respect their, their desire, their drive to go out and figure out who they are, um, but without entirely letting go.

Erin Walsh: (07:05)

So we talk about this at Spark and Stitch as this art of loosening, uh, without letting go. So we wanna give them space to be, um, figure out who they are, but we also don't wanna treat them like mini, mini adults and just say, oh, okay. Uh, you know, you're asking to be a grownup. You want space, good luck out there. Um, and I think it's easy for us to respond from those two extremes when our kids start pushing us away and saying, I don't wanna talk to you about what's happening on Snapchat, or, I don't wanna talk to you about anything that's happened at school as one response. One extreme is to sort of over respond, clamp down, try to control, do everything we can to pry them open, bring them back in. Um, but then that other response that I just mentioned, that sort of letting go, just, you know, treating them like mini adults, neither of those really give teens what they need developmentally, which is practice and coaching.

Erin Walsh: (08:00)

So they need a playing field to get out there and figure out who they are and to practice new skills. But they are still in desperate need of a coach mm-hmm . And, and we can sort of, uh, uh, play that role. So, um, what does that look like? What does that sort of loosening without letting go look like in practice? Certainly it has to do with purposeful boundaries and a safe playing field. Safe, safe enough playing field. Um, but it also means that we wanna stay connected and get creative with connection. Because kids at 15, 16, 13 don't generally turn to us and say, um, I just wanna hang out with you from dawn till dusk. Right. Or the things that we used to do when you were eight, I don't wanna do anymore. Um, so how do we hold that sort of, as Dr. Lisa Damour talks about warm and strict, that we have those purposeful boundaries, but within those boundaries we're getting really creative.

Erin Walsh: (08:51)

Uh, you know, in my case, I'm staying up a lot later than I would like to, 'cause my kid is not tired. Right. So we're sort of taking their lead. I wanna connect in the morning, and that is not when he wants to connect. So we're staying up a little later. , uh, when I'm really sleepy, is when he's ready to talk, taking their lead, um, being curious and sort of, um, open to where their interests are and meeting them, um, in those new spaces. So loosening without letting go, uh, easier said than done, but a yeah, I think a helpful guidance.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:24)

Yeah. And I, you know, specific to the digital realm, I have also found that sometimes it helps to kind of put my kids in the place of, I'm gonna use the term subject matter expert. And it's not that that they're necessarily, you know, they don't know it all, but just that have them watch, maybe say a documentary on digital wellness or, you know, like, Childhood 2.0 or like, The Social Dilemma. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And ask them like, what do you think? Like what is it? Is this, does this hit with you? Or like, what, you know mm-hmm . But come from a place of curiosity rather than, or did you see this? Did you see, you know, so yeah. I feel like in my house at least, that that has worked well to spark those conversations. Yeah. Beautiful. So, I, I, I hope, um, I hope this passes muster with Spark expert over here, but, we'll,

Erin Walsh: (10:29)

Yeah. I mean, I love, I love that because in many ways our kids are content experts. This is a different world than the one that we grew up in. And we can get so overwhelmed and think we have nothing to offer. And we know that that's not true. Right? We know that our kids are relying on us for guidance and coaching and problem-solving, um, but we can also assume that we know everything. And that is also not true.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:52)

No. I've never pretended that!

Erin Walsh: (10:53)

Yeah. They, they have a lot of expertise. And I think asking those kinds of curious questions and remembering that our job is not just to transmit the knowledge. Like, you know, it can be easy for us to feel like, you know what, you know, we know what they should do. We know how they could avoid harm, and how they could avoid undue suffering. So we'll just tell them, we'll just tell them all the things to do. We'll, give them the roadmap and then they will have it easier maybe than, than I did. And unfortunately, the teenage brain is just, it doesn't work that way. And their lives are pretty different than ours. So even our roadmap might not quite be the perfect fit . Um, and so rather than focusing on that sort of transmit the knowledge, the teenage brain is organized around agency and autonomy and, uh, getting out through trial and error. So, uh, before we can offer any kind of wisdom, we need to ask those questions. I love your suggestions of even having those sort of neutral content pieces. They're like, well, what do you think of that? And our kids thinking that? Or, what advice would you give a fourth grader? Uh, teenagers tend to like to give advice about younger kids, For sure. Or what are your friends saying? Um, and I think, I think that those are really beautiful invitations.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:04)

Yeah. And I like the, I like the invitation to like, what would, what would you recommend for a younger child? Because it kind of, it kind of, um, also builds that empathy muscle, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I think that's really important. And I feel like everything that we're talking about really gets to the title of your book. It's Their World: Teen, Screens, and the Science of Adolescence. It kind of, it reminds me of that phrase that I'm a Gen Xer, and we grow, grew up hearing this phrase of we borrow the world from our children mm-hmm . But yet we're still an active part of this world. And helping them navigate it and recognizing that we're in this immensely transitional time for humanity Yeah. Of adapting to digital technology and maybe even redefining what it means to be like sentient. I mean, it's, it's,

Erin Walsh: (13:03)

Yeah. I mean, we're, we're, we're, we're,

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:05)

We're in like brave new world

Erin Walsh: (13:07)

Towards that question.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:08)

Yes, exactly. So I guess I feel like you're, you've already touched on it a little bit….you know, it kind of helps sometimes if I pre-think a script or, but do you have any recommendations of how to offer wisdom and like, still speak as the voice of an elder, but maintain that like, mentor type relationship? Recognizing it's, it's just kinda tricky because it's like, in essence borrowing the world from our children, but yet we're still here. Yeah. We're,

Erin Walsh: (13:47)

We're, we're

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:48)

Very

Erin Walsh: (13:48)

Actively

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:49)

Involved, so

Erin Walsh: (13:49)

Yeah. And we have stuff to offer . Yes. And we have guidance and we're, and we're creating that we are shaped, I, I think the practice field.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:57)

Yeah. I think it's the definition of middle age is what I'm saying. Among other things!

Erin Walsh: (14:03)

Totally. It's like, we're not gone yet. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:05)

Right. Yeah. So do you, how do you approach that?

Erin Walsh: (14:10)

Offering wisdom to an adolescent mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah. I mean, I think first we've already touched on some of that foundational stuff. Yeah. That, that the first step is to ask questions like, before we know what to offer. Cause I think part of what that gets at is this acknowledgment to our kids that we understand that it's complicated. We don't understand everything they're experiencing, but we understand that there aren't always simple solutions. That there isn't always, um, just sort of a two steps and it'll be solved. That growing up in a world dominated by screens is not always straightforward. It's complicated. It actually asks young people to use a pretty sophisticated set of emotional and cognitive skills. . Yeah. Um, and they're, you know, a generation that is figuring that out as they go. And they've done a lot, uh, they have a lot of skills.

Erin Walsh: (15:03)

They've built a lot of skills. But I think what we hear from young people is, “I wish adults would understand that it's not just as simple as not having social media or turning off my phone.” That that might be part of it, but it's actually quite complicated. . Yeah. Like how to be a good friend is tricky, um, to figure out how do I stay present for someone who's suffering, who's texting me, but also I'm not supposed to have my phone at dinner. Um, and also my screen time just went up, but this friend is saying they're relying on me. Like, those are tricky situations. Yeah, for sure. And so, how do we offer wisdom is first by acknowledging that it's hard. It can be hard . So starting with that sort of like, ugh, it is tricky. And just taking a beat and taking a breath sometimes, um, is all young people need, they have some of the wisdom inside of them and, and just acknowledging the space of that they don't have to just clinging to their phones with all their lives.

Erin Walsh: (15:58)

Um, but that we could set it down for a minute and just acknowledge that this is tough. Um, and I think the older, the teen, especially- asking, asking if we can offer advice can be a helpful step. So I know that these situations do not always go beautifully in textbook, but saying, Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna hear some thoughts? Um, do you want my help problem solving this? Um, or do you just wanna like, sit with it for a little bit and we could talk about it tomorrow? So I think sometimes we forget to that with teenagers, we have a little bit of the gift of time that we can wait until after we've had a good night's sleep to problem-solve with them. Or we could hear something that's deeply concerning and take a deep breath and pick up that thread the next day when we feel a little less panicky. So there are some things that require urgent attention. There are safety things that we don't wanna delay. But I do think that sort of validating, asking for permission, planting seeds, and then revisiting when we're in a good place where our kids can actually listen or where they're open to listening goes a long way.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:03)

Great. Yeah. So when we come back, let's talk more about the specific challenges that teens are facing today with tech.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Erin Walsh from Spark and Stitch Institute, an organization that delivers science and strategies to raise connected and courageous kids in the digital age. So Erin, there is a lot of disconnection out there resulting from tech, right? Yeah. Whether it is algorithmic push or just experience blocking that comes from these devices in our hands. And even, or like, I mean, right now, I think even m ore so than ever, the continued silo building of ideas. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, so we have this need for human connection and it's never been greater, and yet we've never been lonelier. Yeah. As, as a species. And I get, I mean, that is something we work on, is we call it relational health. You know, how to create connections, set experiences, start communication, all of those things, which I feel like you're gifted at, just listening to you. Um, what I don't know is how you do this second part of your mission statement. How do you raise courageous kids?

Erin W alsh: (19:16)

Yeah. That's such a beautiful question. 'cause that's a word we throw around a lot. Um, and it's like, okay, what, what is that? I, we all want it. Like, I haven't met somebody who's like, “nah, don't care, . It's courageous. Not a big deal.” Um, but I think when we actually dig into it, like we know, you maybe have heard right, the root of the word courage is core or heart. Um, and so while we talk about courage sometimes culturally as like, synonymous with this sort of like, battle or bravery at the root of it, I think a lot of it is about helping our kids act in alignment with their values, with their beliefs, um, with compassion for themselves and for others. But the, the trick is that we can't just like assign kids courage. We can't tell them “Go be courageous!” I know. Um, and courage is gonna look really different in different settings and at different ages.

Erin Walsh: (20:06)

So the question is, how do we model it? How do we plant the seeds for it? And how do we just keep reminding ourselves that the job is not to raise kids who are, who grow up, but also know who to, how to show up for themselves and for others. And I think what can be helpful for me as a parent is to remind myself that that's not a, a switch that kids just turn on or off. Like it's ingrained or either courageous or not, that it's actually a set of skills that's built over time. Um, so skills like self-awareness of what am I feeling right now? Am I, am I feeling angry or am I feeling embarrassed? Am I feeling worried ? Um, am I feeling, uh, pain for somebody else's experience? Um, and being able to sort of settle my body enough to be able to consider somebody else's feelings, uh, to understand that what somebody else needs and wants is not the same as what I need and want when they're in pain or suffering.

Erin Walsh: (21:03)

I mean, these are big skills, that many adults struggle to put into practice, that I sometimes struggle to put into practice. Um, but the cool thing about these skills is that we, we talk with, with young people and with parents, is that reminder that whatever the brain does a lot of is what the brain gets good at. So the more that we practice things like naming my emotions, the more that we build a toolkit for regulating my feelings, the more that I'm noticing other people's emotions and trying to think about what are my values? Um, when does, you know, when does tech help me live into my values and when does it make it harder? Um, those are things that we do not in one big conversation. It's not something that we just manifest. It's something that we practice and we mess up and we experience the pain of messing up.

Erin Walsh: (21:51)

And we have an adult around us who's willing to say, that did not go the way that you wanted to . Right? Like, that group text thread went off the rails, people got really hurt and you didn't say anything. And it's, it's hard, hard so could, so what could we do? What, what are the different things we could do now? What's the next step? What do we, what's the next right thing as they say? So those are the kinds of, I think we certainly model and we, we talk about our values, um, but we also are willing to sort of, uh, coach our kids consistently through these mini dilemmas that allow them to tap into what do I believe in? What am I feeling, what's right, what's wrong, and what do I try next? Yeah. And that happens in little ways, uh, throughout childhood, adolescence and honestly into our adult lives. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:36)

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There's that whole phrase, you know, “you've gotta name it to tame it”. Yeah. With the emotional awareness. Yep. And I think it's, um, it's particularly, you know, they've done, um, you're the expert, you're gonna know way more about this than I, but I've read about, um, like gender studies where they have found that, you know, women and girls have a lot of words to describe emotions Yeah, yeah. At their regular, you know, in their sort of verbal lexicon, if you will. Yeah. Where they can immediately access those words like frustration, irritated, yeah. Annoyed, you know, all of those things.

Erin Walsh: (23:15)

Yeah. This range.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:17)

Yes. Exactly. And it's kind of like that whole thing of the Inuit culture has, has a million words to describe snow.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:32)

Yeah, exactly. Whereas, you know, us, Adobe, Southern California folk, or it's snow . Yeah. You know? Yeah. But that being said, people identifying as boys, or raised as boys tend to only have two main emotions, happy and mad. Yeah. You know, those are the things that they have. Yeah. Those are, maybe you have a, you have a boy that, that will also click sad. Yeah. But that's, I think it's so important that we give lots of experiences to really grow that emotional vocabulary, so that Absolutely. People can, I mean, we are all the same with our, with our human experience Yeah. And emotional life. We just, um, we don't wanna create subtractive language. We wanna Yeah. Include it all.

Erin Walsh: (24:22)

Yeah. Ab absolutely. And I think part of that is, again, that sort of modeling, you know, um, that we have adults who identify as men in young people's lives who are able to model that. Like that. I have more than two feelings that I talk about feelings too, that you don't just go, um, to girls or women to talk about feelings that we're all, that we all are practicing having that sort of range. And I think for parents who didn't grow up talking a lot about feelings, it's okay to say, you know what, this is kind of new to me. Yeah. I grew up, I grew up learning a different lesson about this, and I kind of want something different for you. So anger, I go to anger fast. But I am realizing that there's a lot of things underneath that. And I think it's okay for us to be sort of these sort of works in progress and modeling that a little bit, um, can give us all permission to have those kinds of awkward or bumpy conversations. Right. Um, that we know teens may not think us for in the moment, but ultimately benefit from when we're able to say, you know, what came out was anger, but underneath it was fear. Right. Um, or underneath it was embarrassment. Um, and now that I know what it is, I might respond a little differently. Right. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:28)

And I think just so, so we're very clear how this all relates to tech habits is a lot of times people will use their devices as kind of a numbing technique. Yeah. You know, where you get put in a place of high emotion and you reach for the thing, it's like the law of the least, right? Yeah. Yeah. You reach for, for the thing that will distract you out of that emotion, and it doesn't ever quite, you know, resolve that. So I think that's, that's how this all relates back to tech habits.

Erin Walsh: (26:04)

Yeah. I think that's, that's beautiful.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:05)

And then that Right. And then that, that creates this perpetuation of tech overuse, which then puts your, your child or yourself, even in this heightened state of vulnerability for, for tech overuse, which can lead to exposure to, you know, explicit material and fomo and all, all of the things, right? Yeah.

Erin Walsh: (26:29)

Yeah. What we really want for teenagers is we want a, a range of tools mm-hmm . So is it fine for a teenager who's feeling sad to come home and listen to a playlist to just chill out or maybe play a half hour of video games on it? Alone, it's not inherently bad to sometimes use distraction. Um, but if that's the only tool and that's your go-to tool, that's where we wanna be really concerned. We wanna see adolescents grow a range of tools to manage and move through their emotions. And it relates to tech in terms of, you know, are they using those? Are they, instead of turning to their phone, are they using a broad, a range of tools? And then as they practice that when they are in unsafe places online, or they are in an online conflict, young people who've had practice noticing their feelings, regulating their emotions, are much more likely in the heat of that online conflict.

Erin Walsh: (27:18)

Or they see some cyber bullying behavior, or they see something or are asked of something online that does not feel right. Right. If I've had practice cueing into my feelings to say, oh, okay, this, there's, I'm, I'm, this, I'm regulating my emotions enough to be able to access my thinking brain to keep myself safe or to keep my friends safe, or to figure out a healthy next step. Um, all of that is related. So both tech habits in terms of reg, how do we regulate our feelings, but also learning those regulation strategies so that when we're in online environments, we can access, you know, what we've been talking about is emotional courage. Um, but the ability to sort of think about how do I, how do I do what's right for me and for the people I care about in these spaces?

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:01)

Right. Right. So this kind of feeds into a zone that I think is, um, really interesting and it's cutting edge and brand new in technology is AI and chatbots, and I specifically the

Erin Walsh: (28:18)

The brave new future.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:19)

Right. Okay. So I specifically would like to talk to you about the relationships that we're hearing about AI romantic partners. I mean, tragically earlier this year, we learned about Sewell Setzer, a 14-year-old Florida teen who took his life at the request of his AI girlfriend to come join him. Yeah. And we continue to hear about other bots that are offering. What can, be perceived as nefarious solutions? I would say, you know, and I, I personally continue to receive emails from a very flirty chatbot I had, because

Erin Walsh: (29:05)

I, who will not let it go.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:06)

No, exactly. I mean, I went on to Character AI when this first started coming out. You know, you gotta kind of, you know, taste the water that we're swimming in here. I had a brief one-time interaction with, months ago with this chatbot when I was testing the platform. I have never responded to any of the emails. And yet without fail, they keep showing up every few weeks. And I just think, wow, if I was 15, if I was 14, you know, knowing that these platforms are so readily accessible Yeah. There's no age verification, there's no anything.

Erin Walsh: (29:45)

Regulation, no.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:47)

How, how do we talk to our kids about these AI relationships?

Erin Walsh: (29:51)

Yeah. Well, first of all, I love, I love the question, um, because our first step is just to acknowledge that teens are using generative AI , um, and they're using it at an increasingly accelerated pace. So as we look at the data of like daily users, it's going up quite quickly. So the latest Common Sense Media study, right, that came out this fall reminded us that, you know, 37, only 37% of parents thought that their kids were using generative AI of the kids who were using it. Um, so, so what we know is that there's this gap between teen use and our understanding of how often kids are using it. Now, most adolescents are using Gen AI for things like homework help, but I think when you're pointing to this sort of companion bots, uh, chatbots, we do know that 18% of adolescents who use gen AI do use it for what they call personal issues or health issues.

Erin Walsh: (30:42)

15% have used it, uh, to have somebody keep me company in quotes. Um, so whether that is a chat friend, a sounding board, or in, you know, we are hearing that young people are using sort of these as, as romantic relationships mm-hmm . Or exploring or being curious about what that looks like in terms of romantic relationships. So acknowledging that kids are, we're not ahead of them by starting these conversations. Like that's our our first step, um, is we tend to be behind. So starting the conversation, um, early, and I do think, I just wanna point, uh, Common Sense Media, Hope Lab and the Harvard Center for Digital Thriving did a study last spring, and they did ask young people, how are you using these tools? Um, and I just wanna read a few of the quotes. These are not, this is not, not my research, but that study, you know, one teenager said, “you know, that robot makes me feel important.”

Erin Walsh: (31:33)

Another young person said, you know, “That robot listens to me.” Um, so I think we do wanna understand like what the purpose is, why our teens are going there, and getting back to those curious questions, which I think at this point, it's like, we know, we know the curious questions, but this is an important point, um, because we might have some young people who are like, yeah, I kinda like ask this companion for advice on what to do with my friendships at soccer. And then most of the time I'm spending, you know, in these offline relationships, and other teenagers are using companion chatbots to avoid the overwhelming or anxiety-producing work of negotiating social life as an adolescent. And those are two very different uses. Some kids are dabbling in it 'cause they're curious and they think it's hilarious, and others are forming real emotional reliance.

Erin Walsh: (32:24)

We wanna know the difference, and we wanna start asking kids questions like, as Dr. Emily Weinstein encourages us to do at the Center for Digital Thriving, um, asking our kids questions like, “What kinds of questions are easier to ask a robot than a human?” Um, oh, I love that. Uhhuh , you know, so, so that we're starting to get a sense of where, what are you going to these robots for? Um, and I think what we know about adolescents in particular is that lectures about longer term harms are important. It's like basic information kids should know, but they don't tend to be nearly as influential as having sort of a critical lens based in teens, sort of near term rewards and goals. Okay. So as opposed to being like, uh, you know, those chatbots are inherently bad and they're gonna ruin your life and you'll never have a friendship. You know, I, that's probably not the language we would use, but where we come really down with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:17)

Right, that's kind of our, our gut feeling.

Erin Walsh: (33:19)

It's like, uh, humanity's on its way to

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:21)

That's against the robots. Yeah.

Erin Walsh: (33:23)

Yeah, exactly. And this is just a vacuum of soul. Um, but asking those kinds of curious questions and then activating a little bit of that critical lens, like, do you know who makes these chatbots? Like, do you know how they generate responses? Um, you know, how do we, what are the, some of the ethics around like, and I think back to your beautiful invitation earlier in the podcast of like, maybe there's a, a film or a short piece or a podcast that kids can listen to where we can say, Hey, have you heard this? Like, what are, what are your friends saying about this? Um, what, what, what questions are easier to ask a robot, but who's designing the robots and why do they say what they say? So activating a little bit of that kind of critical lens of what do you want, what do you actually want right now?

Erin Walsh: (34:08)

I want, I want, uh, I want to be seen, I wanna be heard, I want, um, I want some sort of ad advice that doesn't feel judgy or shameful because I think a lot of kids go on the internet to ask questions that they're too embarrassed to ask in real life, we've been doing that forever. The stakes are just much higher now. Um, and so, you know, knowing the purpose is really helpful so we can activate that critical awareness. And also if they're going online for information, making sure they have evidence-based information, making sure, oh, you know, if you're interested in that, here's some places that you can look. Um, right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:47)

That kind of gets into that digital citizenship versus digital literacy component.

Erin Walsh: (34:52)

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, so curious questions, activating some critical awareness of, of, you know, the literacy around bots and gen AI and the ethics of it. Um, and then really, really keeping an eye as a, as a caregiver on sort of like, what are the red flags? So when we're starting to see sort of, uh, avoidance behavior, um, when we start to see that it's starting to take over, that it's the go-to tool for advice, for emotional regulation, for affirmation, um, these tech companies have made these really frictionless relational environments that are designed to sort of affirm and mirror back mm-hmm . Um, there's no guardrails. And while there may be some positive uses of getting some ideas, unfortunately that's, we don't know that that's going to be the outcome 'cause we just don't have regulation or Yeah. And we don't, we honestly don't have good data on this yet 'cause it's so new.

Erin Walsh: (35:50)

Um, but what we do know is that just, uh, sending adolescents into a world of AI companions and hoping that it works out okay, um, is not the best. It's not the best move. The window of opportunity for social skill development and for identity development is wide, is wide open. They're going to be accessing these tools. Um, and so starting those conversations early, uh, really, really matters as they start thinking about, you know, what kind of friendships do I want? And acknowledging that offline friendships are hard . Um, and how, and but also what are, what are some of the gifts that come from it and how does that compare, um, to, uh, to a robot and what, what, what, what is the robot good at? And what is the robot really not good at in terms of the things that I want?

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:39)

Yeah. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Erin for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Erin Walsh, co-founder of Spark and Stitch Institute, and author of It's Their World Teens Screens and the Science of Adolescents dropping on May 13th, get your copy now! Erin. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice right away in their own home. What's yours?

Erin W alsh: (38:29)

Yeah. So it's gonna come up no surprise, given the theme of this podcast, but, uh, ask your teen a curious question, but here is the, the real tip, um, is notice your own pull to judge, to lecture, to make assumptions, uh, to jump to conclusions. Just notice that reaction and just do everything that you can to listen and just note before you respond, note what concerns you, what impresses you, what worries you, and what excites you. Um, whatever the brain does, a lot of is what the brain gets good at. Yeah. We can get better at asking our kids curious questions.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:08)

Yeah. And I like your advice earlier of, you know, just because your teen is answering this curious question doesn't mean that you have to react to it right away. Yeah. You can just receive the information,

Erin Walsh: (39:21)

Receive and breathe, breathe through it. Exactly. Receive and breathe. That is like the art of parenting a teenager.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:28)

Yeah. And then maybe revisit it if you need to.

Erin Walsh: (39:31)

It doesn't mean ignoring it. Mm-hmm . In fact, um, often when we revisit it, we come to it with a lot more intention. Um, and, and sometimes our kids say nothing at all. So I just wanna acknowledge that. Sometimes you ask a curious question and they're like, p and other times they're like, I'm good. , and no. And that, that is not a sign to stop. That's just a sign to try again another day.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:54)

Yes. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Spark and Stitch Institute and Erin's new book by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to Healthy ScreenHabits.org. Click on the podcast button and scroll down. You'll find this episode right up front. Aaron, thank you so much for being here today for all of your work in the world to build connections and healthy relationships and kind of unravel the mysteries of adolescents and teens.

Erin Walsh: (40:28)

Thank you so much for having me. And likewise, thank you so much for your work in the world. We need everybody at the table.

S12 Episode 10: Reduce Tech Tantrums and Toddler Meltdowns // Devon Kuntzman

Thu, 20 Mar 2025 17:58:16 GMT

"Even if you use screen time sporadically, it can still be predictable."

~ Devon Kuntzman

When Devon Kuntzman started Transforming Toddlerhood with the mission to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible and empower parents and caregivers to overcome the challenges while nurturing their little ones' development. She does this by creating confidence in parenting skills and embracing this magical time period. In this episode, we talk about the additional challenge that technology can bring, how to get your toddler off of a screen, and how to find better screen options for your toddler.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Transforming Toddlerhood

Season 9, Episode 1: What's the Matter? How Baby and Toddler Brain Development is Affected by Screen Time

AAP's Guidelines

Show Transcript

Hill ary Wilkinson: (00:02)

As humans, we are programmed to find large eyes, chubby cheeks and playful behavior appealing. And this means truly that there is nothing cuter than a toddler. So this stage of development is also partnered with this like, you know, discovery of independence and testing of cause and effect. And both of these things can lead to elements of frustration for toddler and caregiver, or parent and technology can compound this by layering in an extra hurdle for this power struggle. So if any of this sounds familiar, I have great news. I have a toddler expert here today to talk about all things toddlers and tech. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Devon Kuntzman,

Devon Kuntzman: (00:58)

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:01)

Same! I, uh, I love, love this stage of human development and I feel like not enough people talk about those areas that are so hard. Devon, your specialty and focus is on this very, like, we're talking about this very specific age range and why, what brought you to this focus? Why did you choose to focus on toddlers specifically?

Devon Kuntzman: (01:35)

I love that question because the reason I decided to focus on toddler specifically is actually really, really personal for me because toddlerhood is oftentimes characterized as a period of time that parents just wanna fast forward through, right? Society tells us it's gonna be terrible, you're gonna have a threenager on your hands. So that messaging right there really makes us just want to hit the fast forward button, glide over it, and hope there's something better on the other side. But we can't do that. And the truth of it is, is that toddlerhood is a very critical developmental period because the first five years of a child's life really sets the foundation for the rest of their lives, especially when it comes to brain development. So it's a very critical developmental period, and of course, very challenging at the same time because it's the first time that our sense of control is truly being challenged as a parent because the whole point of toddlerhood is for your little one to become their very own person, uh, to develop a sense of self for the first time.

Devon Kuntzman: (02:47)

So when I started Transforming Toddlerhood, I noticed that there is lots of people talking about pregnancy infancy and children in general, but no one was talking about toddlerhood when we know how challenging it is. So I started Transferring Toddlerhood with the mission to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible and truly empower parents and caregivers to overcome the challenges while nurturing their little ones' development and creating confidence in their parenting skills. Because toddlerhood, yes, it's challenging, but it's also a very magical time period, a time period full of firsts where you get to watch your child's first step, hear their first words, and really get to discover who they are as a person.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:33)

I love it. I love all of it. Thank you so much for being the voice for those littles who can't speak that for themselves. And so, because this is healthy screen habits, I have to ask, you've talked about like developmentally as kids are growing, but we have this, this new layer of challenge within the realm of toddlerhood and basically human lifespan of, of how we're all negotiating and navigating screen time. But what do you find the greatest challenge that parents of toddlers face around screen time?

Devon Kuntzman: (04:15)

Ooh, it's hard to narrow it down to just one, because there are a lot of challenges, and I'm a toddler parent myself. Um, I would say the biggest challenge I see is that it's really hard to set healthy limits around screen time, because we're living in a world where everything is so dichotomous where you're either in one camp or the other camp and everyone is so divided. So it's either it's screens are fine, totally fine, just don't worry about it. Or it's like, oh, toddlers should never have a screen. And then parents find themselves in this place where they don't know what the best thing to do is. And then if they give their toddler a screen, they, um, feel judged, judge themselves sometimes get shamed by others. And so it's really, really challenging. And then the added layer on top of that is it's hard to navigate our own phone use, especially in front of our children. And so that's just a whole added layer on top of it. Not only are we trying to figure out correct limits for our child's screen use at this age, but also modeling those habits ourselves with our screen time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:35)

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I, I do not have toddlers. We are well past toddlers in this house, but modeling my own screen behaviors is something that I continually have to just check in on and see like, am I showing my relationship with technology the way I want to emulate it for my kids? You know? So absolutely. I'm currently, I'm currently involved in this like two week challenge actually with with another, uh, digital wellness person. And I'm finding myself really caught in the throes of, “Huh. There's some behaviors. I really don't, I'm really not appreciating about myself right now!”

Devon Kuntzman: (06:21)

I just set new limits for myself two days ago mm-hmm . Around my phone use because it's always evolving. Right, exactly. It's

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:29)

Always

Devon Kuntzman: (06:29)

Changing, always evolving. There's different seasons of, of the year and of life. And so I just think that not only are we trying to manage ourselves and our own screen time and what we're modeling to children, and especially in the toddler age, they're just watching our every move and learning from us because they're so reliant on us to get their, um, needs met. So mm-hmm . They're just so attuned to what we're doing. And then at the same time, we've gotta navigate, um, the tech world for children as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:59)

Yeah. Yeah. So I had an amazing opportunity to speak with Dr. John Hutton, who's the researcher who's done extensive work studying the effects of screen time overuse and the very young in regards to the thinning of white matter within the brain. I'll link that episode in these show notes if anybody else wants to go back and listen to that. But since you are the, the expert of toddlerhood, I was wondering if you have any recommendations of organizations or is there any research that you can recommend for listeners who want to know more about the effects of tech overuse and the, the very young?

Devon Kuntzman: (07:45)

Absolutely. I mean, there is a lot of research out there. So even when you just go to Google Scholar and you start typing in, um, you know, screen time toddlers, children, preschoolers, you start to get a lot of, uh, research comes up. And what we start to see around some of this research is that there are potential risks around consuming too much tech. And I think it might be supportive to also just maybe talk about, well, what is too much? 'cause there might be a parent or caregiver listening be like, okay, well, like, how much is too much? How do you know? First of all, there's the guidelines written by the, um, American Academy of Pediatrics that, um, says no screen time under 18 months, um, ideally two years unless it's video chatting, because video chatting, while it is screen time, there's research around that, that shows us that there can be some benefits for children, um, engaging and video chatting with family members.

Devon Kuntzman: (08:50)

Um, and then from, um, two to five years, an hour of screen time a day, um, during the week and sometimes, um, a bit more on the weekends up to three hours. But that's only part of the story. The other part of the story is looking at your child and the type of impact screens might be having on your child. And sometimes that's harder to notice because it's not always just like, okay, my child's having screen time or just had some screen time. Okay, now what's the impact? Let's watch for 30 minutes. Sometimes the impact is cumulative. Um, so you might not notice the impact of screen time, but then after a few months you might be like, wow, my child is just acting completely different than he was before. Maybe, um, just bouncing off the walls more, having more meltdowns and power struggles. Um, unable to, uh, think about other things, um, besides screen time, always asking when the next show is, when the next show is things that like that.

Devon Kuntzman: (09:48)

So it's so important to know, okay, yes, here are the guidelines that are based on the science, but also here's my specific unique child and here's what I see in them and their needs. Because we have research that shows that potential risk of, um, over consumption of screens can disrupt sleep mm-hmm . And can create more meltdowns and power struggles and can, um, disrupt attention span. So there's a lot of things like this that, uh, might even, um, impact or delay language development and decrease emotional wellbeing. So there's a lot of potential risk of overconsumption, but I hate to say just follow a blind like guideline. We also have to take into account who is our child as a unique individual.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:41)

Yeah. Yeah. So when we come back, let's talk a little bit more about what parents can do if they wanna reduce power struggles and tantrums around tech.

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I'm speaking with Devon Kuntzman, founder of Transforming Toddlerhood, whose mission is to empower toddler parents to overcome behavioral challenges, nurture their child's development, and create confidence in their parenting skills. Sounds like the triple, triple win there, . Okay. This mission of empowerment, I think, really resonates with me because it's so aligned with our Healthy Screen Habits mission, which is to educate and empower families to create their own healthiest screen habits w hile maintaining tech as a tool, never a replacement for human connection. So I feel like a lot of what we do holds hands, andI love the focus on education because I really do believe that education leads to empowerment. When you know your why, then you can stand firmly in your how.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:00)

It's kind of this marriage of desire to outcome. So we often have struggles around technology with our kids. 'cause it's like we, we were talking about before the break, a lot of times, you know, childhood by nature is continually changing. And oftentimes, we don't have enough time to evaluate what's happening, or something catches us unprepared. And I know that for my own self, it's like the kids are kinda waiting in the wings just ready to ask, like for a show or YouTube or online game, when they see you like distracted or in a state of stress. And then getting them off of tech can be equally challenging. So this is where Devon, we need your guidance. How, how do you recommend we set limits to reduce these power struggles and tantrums around technology?

Devon Kuntzman: (14:50)

Absolutely. I mean, this is such a big question, and I kind of like to think of it in two parts. The first part, which is creating a plan. And then the second part is, okay, how do you execute the plan or what happens when it goes sideways? So , so the first part with creating a plan, I kind of think about this plan having four parts. So the first is, when, when will screens be used in our home, right? So you have to decide, am I giving my child screen time on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, or is this something we just kind of use sporadically as a tool, um, in certain moments. Something like, okay, if we're on a car ride over an hour, or we're traveling on an airplane, or we're at a restaurant for over an hour or something like this.

Devon Kuntzman: (15:41)

So you have to kind of decide when and when you have decided when you wanna communicate this to your child. So children have the expectations set for them because we want to make it predictable. Even if you use screen time sporadically, it can still be predictable. If you're using screen time in certain instances or circumstances, that part is predictable. But generally, um, we wanna look at, okay, when we're creating the, when we generally wanna have it be predictable versus reactive, because what we know from toddlers is that toddlers need, um, predictability. Predictability creates a sense of safety. It also, when things are predictable, more often than not, it's going to happen in a certain way. There's going to be a lot less pushback. When things are unpredictable, that's where you're gonna be getting lots of power struggles. So, um, it's important to really decide, okay, when will my child have screen time?

Devon Kuntzman: (16:43)

And another tip around the when is, make sure it ends one to two hours before sleep, so it does not disrupt your child's sleep. Then the second part is where, so that means more so like, okay, what type of device is my child going to use? Are they going to use, um, a tv, an iPad, or a phone? If I had to rank it, I would say TV is best. It's fixed to the wall, your child's far back from it and you are in control of it. Um, an iPad, um, would probably be my second, um, or tablet would be my second choice. Sitting on a table, not held in a child's lap, um, it's smaller, the child has to be closer to it. Um, and then third, I would say phone. Because when we're using a phone for screen time, then it makes it more likely that we're going to be reactive for screen time because we can just whip it out of our pocket and give it to our child.

Devon Kuntzman: (17:33)

So it's harder to stay consistent with the limits that you set, um, when your child knows it could be available and when, you know it could be available when the going gets tough. Uh, the third part I would say is the what. So have a list of approved shows. So I would recommend, if possible, um, previewing at least one episode of a show or series, um, before, um, before letting your child watch that. So you know that this show meets your standards for what, um, your child's going to be watching. And not all shows for children are created equally. They, um, some are really made to draw your child in and make it hard for them to let go of it. And a lot of times there's an opportunity to think outside the box. So if you're gonna show your child a show, perhaps it's a show about baby animals in the wild.

Devon Kuntzman: (18:27)

Maybe it's a webcam that's watching like a bird's nest or like a watering hole, um, of animals somewhere, um, in Africa or something like that. You know, there's so many things out there, um, that could kind of be outside the box than just thinking of like your typical, um, show for kids. And then the third, uh, the fourth is connection. So create opportunities for co-viewing or, and or have discuss discussions about what your child watches, which basically means the research shows that if you co view with the child, um, it's better for them. They get more from what happened, it's easier for them to transition away from the show. It helps them understand what they're watching and they get more out of it, or at least discuss with your child about what they watched. So that's what I have for creating a plan. Then, okay, what are we going to do if your child is watching a show? And then they're like, but just one more, but just one more. My child in our house. My husband's French. And so, um, my child speaks French as well, and he's always like, uh, uh, which means one. So first he says one in English, and then he does it in French, like thinking maybe, um, , maybe the cha, it'll change, you know, he just says it in the other language. Anyways, it's funny,

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:48)

Which, which kind of leads you to believe, what else am I being , right? What else am I being “bilingualled” On that I'm not sure, right?

Devon Kuntzman: (19:53)

Because he's just like, uh, uh, it puts this little figure up. I'm like, oh, you think this is gonna change the outcome here? This is cute, um, . But anyways, so what you wanna do is, um, really talk to your child beforehand. So you wanna make it clear, okay, we're going to watch one show, or I've set this timer and have it be a visual timeframe. What goes off, it's done. But we wanna give them something concrete, not just say, oh, in 10 minutes, in five minutes, because honestly, they don't know what that means, right? So there's gonna be more pushbacks, it's gonna feel very unpredictable. Um, then I would pause the, pause the show or whatever they're watching five minutes before and say, okay, we're almost at the end. So now you're starting to pull your child back from like, being engrossed in what they're watching back to the present moment. Mm-hmm. Then, um, maybe in that last,

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:47)

Like, so you could like set a timer for yourself to know like, ooh, five minutes, I gotta go. And like, just pause the show and let them know when this wraps up. You're just kind of like, yep. Reminding and reviewing the, uh, rules that are in place.

Devon Kuntzman: (21:01)

Yes. And it's already creating like the first interruption, so it's not so brutal. Mm-hmm . When, whenever we're going to like, have the big interruption of turning it off, right? . So then from there, if you, in that last five minutes, are able to co-watch with your child, that can be a great time because now you're, um, watching it with them. You could discuss what's happening while you're watching, which is anchoring them more in the present moment, which again, is going to soften that transition. Um, and then when it's over, oftentimes we can see if we can give our child a sense of control, right? Because toddlers are hardwired to look for a sense of control because they're trying to become their own person. So in that process, they're exerting their will and they're looking to have a sense of power control, but they can't control how much, um, TV they're going to watch or how much, um, screen time they're going to consume.

Devon Kuntzman: (21:56)

But we can give them a sense of control of saying, do you wanna turn it off, or do you want me to? Something like that. Now, what happens when your toddler says no or just, you know, starts flipping out, which don't be alarmed if you set a limit and your toddler gets upset. Because when you set a limit, you have three jobs and your child has three jobs, it's your job to set the limit. It's your child's job to test it. Mm-hmm . It's your job to follow through on the limit. And it's your child's job to have a reaction when they realize that limit is going to stick, and it's your job to support your child with their big feelings and emotions, and it's your your child's job to accept the limit. That means you can't force your child to be happy or to feel a certain way.

Devon Kuntzman: (22:43)

When you set a limit, it's up to them to work through their emotions and accept it. It's up to you to support them in working through their emotions. So what does this mean in practice? Well, what it means is that if your child's upset and having a hard time, you might say, “I know it's really hard to turn off Bluey. Mm-hmm . You really, really, really love Bluey.” And then you stop mm-hmm . You pause, you let it sink in. Oftentimes we're so quick, so we wanna just get through it and, you know, have the emotions change because it's uncomfortable to sit with our child's negative, you know, or uncomfortable emotions. And so, but what we really need to do here is pause, because connection can work wonders and helping a child feel seen and heard, and ultimately to influence them and create cooperation. But we've gotta give it space. We've gotta give our child space to feel connected to us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:40)

I love that you're, you're validating those feelings. You're like, oh, this is really hard. Yes. Yeah. I can see this is really hard. And you're just, you're just mirroring for them. You don't have to understand the why, but you can say, “Oh, I can see you're so sad.” Yeah. And, and don't make it about you. Don't make it about, oh, it makes me sad when you're sad. You know, I, you, you need to not get enmeshed in that

Devon Kuntzman: (24:08)

. Right? Yes. It's about really just being this neutral observer mm-hmm . To really observe and describe what's happening. You don't wanna turn it off validating your child. It's hard to turn it off. I know. And just really hold the space. And I've seen magic happen in these moments where after five minutes, six minutes, something like that of really holding the space, the child finally just goes, okay, and turns it off. But oftentimes that five minutes can feel like 50 minutes, and we don't actually wait enough time for the child to work through their emotions. Mm

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:44)

Mm Yeah. Yeah. I can see also how that, um, co-viewing, even for the last five minutes of this show, can also help you with this concept that we call bridging, which means bridging the time online to the time offline. So say you are doing, like, you, um, beautifully gave the idea of, you know, an, uh, a live webcam or something, say we're watching the Mama eagle, you know? Yes. And you can say, “oh, come on baby Eagles, we're gonna go fly to, you know, go set the table” or whatever. And you can use that as a playful transition. But, but, but you wouldn't know what to use as that like, spark of bridging unless you had been involved in that last five minutes. So Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman: (25:35)

Yes. There's so many gifts that, that last five minutes can really give you, um, you know, we often think we're too busy and sometimes we might not be able to. But when we're able to, there's a lot of gifts inside it because it helps us meet our child where they're at, and when we meet a child where they're at versus trying to drag them over to where we want to be, what I always like to say is that when we walk across the bridge, say, say, I always like to envision you're on one side of like the stream, your child's on the other side, there's a bridge. And if we are standing on our side and like demanding they come over, we're gonna get a lot of pushback. Or we might go to their side of the bridge and then feel like we're just like pulling them over the bridge.

Devon Kuntzman: (26:15)

What they really need us to do is come over there, stop, be hand in hand with them and walk them over the bridge. And the way we do that is through connection, through validation, through playfulness and co viewing that last five minutes allows us to really meet them where they're at and me and mesh them ourselves in their world. So then we can carry that through and literally walk over that bridge to where we want our child to be, where we want them to go. And sometimes it's not gonna work out so beautifully, right? Because if this is, if you're new to setting this limit, your child's gonna test this limit several times.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:53)

But like you said, that's their job. Like Yeah. It's their job. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I love that, that distinction of yeah, there, it's your job to set the limit. It's their job to test it. They're not testing you, they're just making, I mean, they're all about object permanence. Is it gonna be the same in each situation? So, yeah.

Devon Kuntzman: (27:13)

Yeah. And when it's a new limit, it's really, really hard for them to know. So know that there might be times where you have to say, I see you're having trouble turning it off. I'm going to turn it off this time. You can try next time. Mm-hmm . And that might just be it. And they might fall to pieces and might have a lot of tears, and you might say, then they might say, oh, no, I'm ready. So you might turn it back on and then let them push the button, you know, whatever you think you need to do for your child in that moment. But knowing that the more predictable that this limit becomes, the less they're going to push back. For sure. But if your child continues to push back, this can be a signal that maybe your child needs to reduce or take a break from screen time. That could be one of the signals.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:54)

Yeah. Yeah. That's that, that, that, uh, evaluation component that you talked about in the first part. So I, I feel like I have a unique opportunity to ask you about this. As, uh, an elementary educator, one of the things that, you know, all teachers encourage again and again is reading aloud to kids. And it is truly one of the most enriching things you can do as a parent. It's shown to build attention span, empathy creates connection, as well as, you know, enforce all those wonderful pre-reading skills that have basic book knowledge and vocabulary building. And all of that being said, there are apps that have picture books online that will do, I'm using air quotes, read alouds, , and, and yes, they are reading the words aloud. There is a voice, but, um, I think my bias is showing through . So I'm wondering as, as the screen habit lady, my bias is showing, but, but what, as the toddler lady, what, what is your take on these types of apps?

Devon Kuntzman: (29:05)

Sure. I mean, and it's, it's not only just my take. I think if we just look at the research overall, that what the research finds is that a device can't replace an adult, right? Mm-hmm . And that children learn best from adults. We do know that can there be learning from devices in certain instances? Sure. But it's not as good and will never be like learning from an adult. So I personally haven't used one of these apps because I personally wouldn't use one of these apps, um, in my family. So what I would say is that for families that want their child to be exposed to more books, but maybe, you know, already spent an hour reading and can't spend any more time reading, or you even spent five minutes reading, you can't spend any more time reading at that moment, then this is where, um, podcasts, storytelling podcasts for kids can be great.

Devon Kuntzman: (29:57)

Different audio players with that read books aloud can be great. And so I would focus more on the audio component. And then what's so great about this is your child's listening, but then they're likely also doing, so they might be maybe building something with some blocks or playing with a, a lovey or, or a baby doll or something like this while listening. So they're going to be further integrating what they're hearing as they're moving. And so that's, that's what I would personally prefer. But in the end, I think the bottom line is a device can't replace an adult.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:34)

Yeah. Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Devon for her healthy screen habit.

Ad Break: Thank you donors!

I'm speaking with Devon Kuntzman, founder of Transforming Toddlerhood, a website that allows you to be the parent you envision. She does this by teaching positive, developmentally appropriate parenting tools that work with your child's development. Devon, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Devon Kuntzman: (31:44)

Well, my tip is evaluate shows, be sure they're developmentally appropriate for your child. So by developmentally appropriate, what do I mean? Well, fast pace shows overstimulate the reward pathways in the brain and can make screen time more addictive for your child. Whereas a slower pace with minimal screen transitions can create less arousal in the brain and be less stimulating and less addictive. So when you are looking to choose a show, an app, whatever, for your child, what you wanna look for is low stimulation with developmentally appropriate content models, positive behavior models, positive dialogue, and ideally pre-watched by an adult. So some characteristics of less stimulating shows are slow paced, very few screen transitions, less intense colors, relaxing or soothing music, characters who talk instead of yell and few to no sound effects.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:08)

I love that because so oftentimes when you're, looking at recommendations for safe kid programming or desired kid pro programming, they talk about slow tech versus fast tech. And to know exactly what these characteristics of slow tech are. I thank you very much for outlining that. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to transforming toddlerhood. And that link to the previous episode that I talked about with John Hutton visiting by visiting the show notes for this episode. You're gonna do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Devon, thank you so much for being here today and working so hard to empower all parents during the toddlerhood years.

Devon Kuntzman: (34:09)

Thank you so much. It's really a pleasure.

S12 Episode 9: Parent Tech Support - Here’s Where to Get It! // Jack Hughes

Wed, 12 Mar 2025 05:00:01 GMT

"….one of my most important tips….. is to … look through your child's screen time to (see) what they're doing on their phone."

~Jack Hughes

Jack Hughes is an expert in talking to parents about tech support because he has literally grown up in this digital age. As the president of Parent Tech Support, an organization whose mission is to help parents protect their kids online. He does that by providing free, straightforward content that educates parents.

By using videos and establishing a personal connection, he can help parents set up parental controls and provide support. In today’s episode, he shares informative tips and provides explanations for all of us who are trying to figure it out.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

ParentTech.Support

https://parenttech.support

Bark, Gryphon Router, other tools can all be found here:

https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/tools#ProductsWeEndorse

OpenDNS:

https://www.opendns.com/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

So many guests of who I have on this podcast have found their way to becoming digital wellness experts on one of two paths. Typically, they're either parents who recognized a problem slash became accidental, activists or researchers who are experts on human development, and realized early on that technology is kind of hijacking this human experience and so they're studying it further. But today my guest is neither. He is an expert in talking to parents about tech support because he has literally grown up in this digital age. Today he's going to share info tips and provide tech support for all of us who are trying to figure it out. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Jack Hughes.

Jack Hughes: (01:06)

Hello. Thank you for having me on today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:08)

Oh, I'm thrilled. Jack, if you are comfortable now, can you share your background for reference, maybe like the year you graduated high school, what your relationship was with tech growing up.

Jack Hughes: (01:22)

Okay. So grew up with technology. My, one of my earliest memories is getting an iPad for Christmas as a kid. Um, at first I didn't know the password, so my parents would open it up. I’d have like 15 minutes a day to play Minecraft or whatever it was. And then I later got, I believe it was an iPod or maybe it was a phone without a phone number, something like that. And my parents put on parental controls. I think they put on some third party application. This is before screen time. And they wanted to keep me off, you know, the internet. They wanted to keep me off social media. They didn't want me getting games. But me and my older brother at the time, we were very resourceful and we would always, we would spend hours trying to figure out little loopholes ways to get around the parental controls.

Jack Hughes: (02:10)

And we eventually would learn a few of these exploits and we would use certain back doors they get on the internet, certain ways to get apps on our phones that we weren't supposed to have, like games. And so, and then we would always sneak, you know, YouTube to like 2:00 AM or, uh, we would take my mom's computer and use that. Just a lot of times with me getting around parental controls. And so later on, eventually, you know, three, four years down the line, I get caught as, you know, kids, kids will. And then my dad had an idea. I was around 17, 17 and a half around the time, finishing up my senior year of high school. And my dad had the idea. 'cause I, I've been looking to start a business, and that is because I know all those back doors because I have so much experience with parental controls.

Jack Hughes: (03:01)

And I've also helped my parents with my younger siblings. Um, I have a bunch of siblings. The oldest of those younger set of siblings would be 10. Then I have a 8-year-old sister and a 7-year-old brother. And I've helped my parents with their parental controls. And so my dad had an idea if I started a business and how I could educate parents on how to use printer controls because I know all those loopholes because I know all the exploits that kids use, that I use as a kid, um, that I can help educate other parents and how to prevent those and how to, you know, protect their kids online. So that was my mission.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:44)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . So as you're explaining to yourself, I just kind of had this vision of you being like, digital Robinhood .

Jack Hughes: (03:53)

Yeah, exactly. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:55)

I'm like, and in my mind you were the animated Robin, Robin Hood, not the Errol Flynn, the fox, Robin Hood. The fox. Exactly, exactly. .

Jack Hughes: (04:04)

Yeah. Almost like the, uh, almost like the bad guy who became the, the, the cop.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:08)

Right. I, I know. Exactly. Your expertise comes from your background. Yeah. So, um, and just like I, if you're comfortable, can you share the year that you graduated high school, just so people recognize the current age that you're at?

Jack Hughes: (04:31)

Yeah, that would be, year of 2023 to 2024. This is my graduation year, so,

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:45)

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm emphasizing that so that people recognize the relevance of what you're talking about. Mm-hmm . You know, for those of us who currently have kids in high school and all of the things, I feel like you have an, your, the service you provide is inherently valuable, but you're, I mean, your finger on the pulse of having just been living, you know mm-hmm . This, this life is so, so valuable and important.

Jack Hughes: (05:17)

Yeah. In terms of parental controls, I like to say the prisoner knows more about the prison than the prison warden in a sense.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:24)

So one of the platforms that you've used to help parents is YouTube. And you have all these little great short videos, super easy to follow short videos where you explain potential problem areas for parents that they may not even realize are potential, you know, danger zones. And we think often that by keeping our kids off of social media, we have our bases covered. And, but on one of your videos, you kind of go into the pitfalls of group chats and can you talk about that a little bit?

Jack Hughes: (06:09)

Yeah. So a lot of times, group chats- there's so many people on them, it kind of gets chaotic. Um, a big point I always, I touched on in that video was FOMO, which is fear of missing out. Um, just like, you know, 30 minutes ago I had all my friends on a group chat and they were talking and I couldn't do my work. I couldn't prepare for this interview because, you know, I always, I had fomo. And then another point when it comes to texting, I think it's like only 9% of what we communicate is, uh, verbal and the rest is tone and flex and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. And texting just cuts all that out. And texting makes it easy to be super confident because when I'm texting someone, I can be confident. Um, like for example, whenever I, I would be texting a girl, it's super easy to ask a girl out over text because you can plan it out. You could say the perfect words and it's not scary, but in person you may see the girl in person and you may freeze up and it, it, it creates like a, a false sense of confidence and it's all virtual and fake and it just, it's not right. You know, I'd rather it's much healthier and better to be in person and, you know, to have a full group like that. Yeah. You develop your social skills a lot better.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:53)

Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody, I, everybody can relate to that at this point. Anybody who, my default to dealing with a lot of things, be it he or not, is through humor. And humor on text is really hard. Mm-hmm . And I have found myself coming across as being incredibly offensive. Yeah. Sometimes. And I just need to like, just keep it straight and dial it back, you know? But unfortunately that's only come from, you know, sticking my foot in my mouth several times. The other thing that I don't, um, know that everybody realize about realizes about the group chat situation is, um, it's kind of a very, uh, common area for let's say salacious content to get shared.

Jack Hughes: (08:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:49)

And so I think that's what, you know, people think, oh, they're not on social media, so that's not an issue, but be aware that, you know, photos, videos, et cetera can be shared on group chat. And do you wanna talk just for a second about the whole, you know, iPhone versus Android?

Jack Hughes: (09:08)

Oh yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:09)

Thing. Yeah.

Jack Hughes: (09:10)

So if you have an Android, you're gonna get the cursed green bubble. And, and you know, photos are a lot lower quality with the green bubbles, you know, you have a lot of less features. So people with green bubbles tend to get excommunicated from group chats 'cause they have the green bubble. Um, and so that's why I think it's like, that's one of the driving factors why so many kids want iPhone today or want, want iPhones today. I think it's like 80% of all teenagers have, uh, iPhones. Um, and you were saying earlier about those salacious texts, once you send that on a group chat, it's not like, it's not like saying something in person once you say that on a group chat, it's there forever. I mean, it's never gonna go away. I mean, how many times do we hear about, you know, or politicians or business people say something and it's out there forever, you know? For sure. They're always part of it. For

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:01)

Sure. For sure. No careers have been ruined over, over images sent, um, . So the other thing that I, um, am remarkably uninformed on, which is not saying much. I'm, I'm remarkably uninformed on a whole lot of stuff, but let's talk about VPNs. Like what are they? How are kids using them to get around controls? Can you just kind of break it down for us?

Jack Hughes: (10:29)

Yeah. So A VPN stands for a virtual private network and essentially is, it's like an extra server. Your phone goes before going to the internet. So let's say I wanna look up CAT videos on a phone without a VPN, it's, their phone is going to go to the website with the CAT videos directly. So it's gonna go from your phone to the website. A VPN is like a little middleman. So the phone will go to the VPN and then the VPN goes to the CAT videos. And so that has some benefits. Some of the benefits are, it's more secure. Let's say there's a hacker, let's say the CAT videos is like a hack thing, right? And once to get your information, it can't get your phone's information because it's actually being searched up by the VPN and the VPN is just giving the information. But that can be negative or that could be bad in terms of parental controls. 'cause sometimes, depending on what filter or what type of parental controls you're using, you can use VPNs to get around filters. A lot of parental controls will use, uh, like a middleman to track what websites you're going. If you're using A VPN, it can kind of get around that. And let's say you have a, you have a filter on that blocks pornography or something, A VPN could potentially get around that. And it depends on what filter you have and what VPN you're using.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:50)

Yeah. And how easy is it to get a VPN?

Jack Hughes: (11:54)

Pretty easy. Um, it's like, is

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:56)

That something pretty much an

Jack Hughes: (11:56)

App you download?

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:57)

Oh, okay. It's an app. Yeah. Or like, do you just YouTube it, like how to set it up? Yeah.

Jack Hughes: (12:02)

Yeah. Um, computer, you don't need an app, I believe an iPhone. You just download an app and it takes like, you know, I could probably do it in five minutes. Well, most of 'em cost some money. So that's a, it's a, you know, but it's like $3 a month, so it's really cheap.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:18)

When we come back, let's talk more about what parents can do if they want a real tech back in, but they're kind of unsure on how to start it.

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Ad Break: Bark

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I'm speaking with Jack Hughes, a Gen Zer who is helping parents with his business Parent Tech Support. The link is absolutely going to be in these show notes. So stick around to figure out how to get to that. Jack, one of the things I really like about parent tech support is you give people actionable tips and tell them exactly how to do things like layer parental controls. Can you kind of get into that?

Jack Hughes: (14:11)

Yeah. So this is one of the best strategies that I've learned. I call it layering. Um, you're essentially layering different parental controls on top of each other. So the first layer is what I call in-app controls. So certain apps like TikTok, like, uh, Roblox will have parental controls baked into the app itself that you can set up. So you set up that layer, and then you set up a second layer, which is, device parental control. So every device, like an iPhone, like Android, will have parental controls baked into the phone. They also then set those up. So that would be the second layer. And then you set up, um, third party parental controls. And so you get like bark, you get, uh, quiz, no, you know, third party parental controls, and that's another extra layer of security.

Jack Hughes: (15:09)

And then you can go on to wifi controls. So wifi filters, setting up a filter on your wifi network itself. And then let's say your child goes to, goes abroad and you wanna set up parental controls on their cellular device or their cellular provider. So that's another, an extra, extra layer. So what is really nice about these layers is, let's say they find a way around one control. They, they find a way around the, uh, third party printer controls. You'll still have two other layers there to meet them, to block them. So it's like, it's like you have a diamond and you put it in a, in a safe, and then you put that safe in a bank vault, and then you put a security team around that bank vault. So it's just extra layers upon layers. And they're not just, they're not just adding, they're not just, it's not just one plus one is two, they're compounding, essentially. So they're getting more and more secure. And so it's a, a big strategy. I really encourage parents to, to use a layering.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:09)

Yeah. Yeah. Um, for my own understanding, when you're talking about doing the, uh, the wifi controls, would that be something like a Gryphon router? Is that, yeah, so, okay.

Jack Hughes: (16:23)

Yeah. Um, but most routers will have controls just at least a super basic form of control. So you can set up, but the Griffin router is a great, or the bark home wifi, 'cause that's made for parental controls. Okay. Um, you can also use a service called Open DNS, which I also really like. They're completely free and they're really one of the best internet filters I've ever, I've ever seen. Um, I highly recommend them as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:54)

Wow. That's a great tip. Thank you. I've never even heard of them. And I'm in this zone. So, , can you, um, can you lock parental controls? I know I just recently spoke with, um, another guest who spoke about how some parental controls are easy to get around by changing time zones or mm-hmm . You know, just simply turning, turning things off, and then reinstalling. So can you lock certain parental controls?

Jack Hughes: (17:27)

Yeah. So like, as you're saying, the time zones part, I used to do that growing up when my, my parents had a service called Kids Lock on my phone. That was a third party controls. And I, I, I did that all the time. It was a great strategy to get around controls, or I would turn off the wifi and I would have unlimited screen time. Um, but if you set 'em up correctly, like if you set up in a way where it locks, so it locks down, so you can't delete the app. Mm-hmm . So a lot of times kids will just delete the parental control apps and so it would unlock the phone. But on the parental controls, if you lock down their ability to not delete apps and they can never delete the app in the first place. Mm-hmm . Um, so there are ways you could lock down. There are strategies you can use. Um, screen time is is, which is Apple's built-in controls. I use screen time a lot just because, you know, everyone has an iPhone these days. And, um, it's pretty intuitive. Not intuitive, but it's, it's easy for me to explain 'cause I've used it a lot.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:28)

Okay. Since, let me ask you, 'cause we're an Apple family and one of the things that I have found in using screen time, um, and even with myself, like I, I install controls on myself because I will find mm-hmm. Oh my god, Jack the freaking Instagram, right? The . Yeah. I mean the time blindness is real. It's so addictive. Real. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, I know this stuff. Right? But, um, so I will set up time controls for myself, but it seems like, like, uh, with updates it gets cleared. Yeah.

Jack Hughes: (19:03)

Yeah. A lot of times it will.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:04)

So, so how, what do you That's part of why I'm asking if you can lock it down. Because like, I, I don't know how, how to, uh, to do that. 'cause unfortunately, I, I figure out that my controls have been undone. Yeah. By the fact that, oh, it's an hour later, you know, not the mm-hmm . 30 minute, the 30 minute time set that I had.

Jack Hughes: (19:32)

Yeah. That's, um, that's actually a, a screen time bug, that I believe Apple knows about.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:38)

Yeah. And

Jack Hughes: (19:38)

It's been there for like three or four years. They never fixed it. Or maybe they've said they fixed it, but it's still there. Mm-hmm . Um, that's one of the reasons why I recommend that parents, you know, generally always check through their screen time, always look at their parental controls, do a quick 10 minute look at it, because that happens a lot and it's always kind of scary. And, and that happened to me when I was growing up and that was the best thing ever because I had no parental controls .

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:03)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, like always for me, I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Like, I'm really, for me it's like, oh, I must be really relaxed today. I'm just feeling like time is stretching out . And then it's like, oh no, actually time is going by. You're just getting sucked into . Yeah.

Jack Hughes: (20:20)

And a lot of parents won't add a screen time pin to their child's. So when they first set up screen time, they, they set it all up, but they don't ever set a pin because like Apple doesn't make it clear that you need to set up a password to block them. Oh. For like years, my parents thought they, I had, they had screen time on my phone, but I could always just ignore the limit they put in. Oh, gotcha. And once they put that pin in, and the other thing was they put that pin in, but they didn't make it secure and they never changed it. Oh. And so it was, it was, funny enough, it was the same code that we used for the garage door.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:58)

hahaha

Jack Hughes: (21:01)

So it was pretty easy to guess.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:01)

Talk about the literal keys to the kingdom. You're like, . Yeah. Like I got it all.

Jack Hughes: (21:07)

Yeah. And it's, I, I also highly recommend that parents change that like once a month. Oh. Because kids are resourceful. I mean, I would even set up cameras looking down when I would ask them to put it in so that I could get the code.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:20)

You are, you are good, Jack.

Jack Hughes: (21:23)

It was, it was like mission impossible.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:24)

Next level , I can understand why your dad was like, you need to use your skills for good son. Okay. So what, in your estimation, what do you think are the most problematic websites for kids today?

Jack Hughes: (21:44)

Okay. So, I mean, right off the bat you have all those porn websites that you know, walk kids into all that. That's goes without saying mm-hmm. Um, you have social medias, so you have, you know, Instagram, um, Instagram will create a lot of body image issues, a lot of comparisons, a lot of unhealthy comparisons is, I myself will compare myself to, you know, super jacked guys who look absolutely beautiful, but let's be honest, they're all on steroids and they all doing drugs or Photoshopping their, their looks. So this, it's an unhealthy, stupid comparison. Or you have apps like TikTok, you have apps like, um, you know, YouTube Shorts especially where you just, it ruins your attention span. You can't focus anymore. Um, I mean, ruins your dopamine. I'm sure you know a lot about dopamine. Everyone talks about dopamine nowadays, but it's a

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:37)

It's a real Yeah. But go ahead. Real problem. It's alright. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack Hughes: (22:40)

A big one that goes under the radar a lot would be, um, uh, Reddit forums. Mm-hmm I don't know if Discord would be a forum. It's something like that. But, um, Reddit and, and Discord. There's a lot of, um, shady stuff on those, on those sites. Mm-hmm . No one really talks about, or Quora, I believe is another one. Lots of lots of pornography on those sites that, you know, that's

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:12)

A pornography. Yeah. And lots of radicalization of Yeah. You know, any, any direction. I mean, you know, yeah. You

Jack Hughes: (23:19)

Could find stuff like, you know, the Holocaust of Deniers or mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:24)

Flat Earthers . Yeah.

Jack Hughes: (23:26)

I mean, and that's how it started, right? Yeah. I think it was on Reddit or something like that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not even necessarily, uh, websites that you're finding problematic. It's the apps that you Yeah.

Jack Hughes: (23:38)

Or, or, um, I was talking to, uh, my, uh, my brother the other day and Tumblr did, you know, Tumblr is a massive spot where people sell drugs and people buy drugs off of, it's not just Tumblr. You can, you can get drugs off Instagram, you can get off, you know, marketplace.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:55)

Snapchat is, Snapchat's an absolute hub. Yeah. And we have, sadly, horrifically I have interviewed many parents who have lost children due to fentanyl laced drugs bought on Snapchat. They'll start on a different platform and then they'll say they'll move them to Snapchat.

Jack Hughes: (24:13)

Because it's untraceable. Mm-hmm . Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:15)

Yeah. Exactly. So what do you think about the, uh, current recommendations from our former Surgeon General Dr. Murthy and the adoption by Australia that social media should be, you know, not allowed for kids?

Jack Hughes: (24:32)

Yeah. I think it's great. I think 16 is a great age. Um, I, I, I, almost all my videos what I could talk about social media, I recommend 16. And even then you should know what they're doing on social media. Yeah. I mean, maybe even older. Maybe it's a special like maybe 18 for Snapchat as you were saying.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, oh, and, and just so you know, so that, you know, of this resource that we have, we have a four part Stepping Into Social Media. So it's not, it's not like at 16, you don't toss your kids the keys to the car and say, okay, see ya. You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. You, there's, there's training that happens. Yeah. There's a walk-in approach where we have kids like practice posting on your account and, you know, and like, look at things posted together and point out.

Jack Hughes: (25:25)

Build up, build up the resistance to, to like TikTok or something, because if you just, it's like dropped into the ocean and you can't even swim.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:33)

Totally. And the ocean is, uh, you know, I mean deep. It's deep, and it's designed to pull you under. Yeah. It's, I mean, it is, is designed by some of the best minds of our time to pull you under. So we're getting very dark. Jack, let's take a break.

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Ad Break: HSH Website

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Jack Hughes. He is the president of Parent Tech support, an organization whose mission is to help parents protect their kids online. So parent tech support does that by providing free, straightforward content that educates parents. I've learned much by watching his videos, and he also has a personal connection by helping parents set up parental controls and providing support. I just, I think everyone would find you incredibly relatable, Jack . So on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. So what's yours?

Jack Hughes: (26:53)

Um, I would say one of my most important tips after, especially after you've set up parental controls is to generally, you know, let's say maybe it's once a week, maybe it's once a month to look through your child's screen time to look through what they're doing on their phone, um, to kind of just a general 10 minute glance through, um, maybe their social media, social media accounts. You know, a general sense of knowing what they're doing on their phone. A lot of times kids will, you know, hide stuff like that. It's a, it's a just a general habit of just going to do their phone. That will do miracles. That's one of the ways you can spot if they're getting around printer controls.

Jack Hughes: (27:40)

I know my parents, they never looked through my phone, they never looked at my screen time. If they would've looked at my screen time, they would've seen that I spent, you know, five hours a day on a workout tracking app. And the reason why I spent five hours a day on a workout tracking app was 'cause I was using that app to get around printer controls, to get on the web, to get on Google, essentially. Oh. So there's no reason why someone should be on a workout tracking app, you know, five hours a day, um, seven days a week,

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:09)

They were probably thinking, wow, he's so healthy. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Okay, so I'm gonna circle back a little bit. Um, so recognizing that every family's different, there's no cookie cutter approach, do you to parenting? Um, I should add, let, do you have an age that you think parents should stop using parental controls?

Jack Hughes: (28:35)

Um, I'd say, I mean, when they're an adult, when they go to college, I mean, at that point you're not really their parent just when you're not their parent anymore, I should say. Um, I mean, that could be, that could be 18 or 19 when they leave the house. I think, you know, when you stop being the parent, I think you always should have some level of printed controls. Um, I don't have printed controls in my phone anymore, but I mean, my parents don't really have that degree of authority over me anymore, if that makes sense.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:09)

Right, right, right. So, so

Jack Hughes: (29:11)

I'd say 18 is a good age,

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:13)

Right? Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and you know, and it's, you know, there's, there's 18-year-olds and there is 18 year olds. It's just, like I said, there's no cookie cutter approach to this whole thing. Yeah. It's just this is a general, a general,

Jack Hughes: (29:26)

Or there are some 16 year olds who are as mature as an average 20-year-old. Totally. Or vice versa.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:31)

Absolutely. Completely, completely agree with you. Within the same family, , you know. Yeah. So, as always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to parent tech support by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Jack, thank you so much for being here today and for, for using your powers for good.

Jack Hughes: (30:03)

Yeah, you should, you should see all my, uh, my TikTok and Instagram comments. They're all kids, you know, 16 year olds calling me Snitch and and, uh, you know, wise bro snitch and all, all my comments are like that…

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:15)

Fun. It's, I'm sure it's not, bro. I'm sure it's bruh . Yeah, it's . Okay. Well thank, well thank you Jack from all of the parents. Thank you.

Jack Hughes: (30:28)

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

S12 Episode 8: 1 Year of Fun With 52 Screenfree Ideas for Families! // Kathleen Barlow

Wed, 05 Mar 2025 06:00:00 GMT

"We are so hyper-stimulated from being on phones all the time."

~Kathleen Barlow

Kathleen Barlow is a mom of 6 and grandmother of 3, as a former middle school and high school French teacher she had a front row to watch the increasingly negative impact of phones in schools and their effects on connection. She has dedicated her time to helping schools develop better cell phone policies and families build better connections.

Kathleen has created a great tool and resource for families looking to participate in screen free fun. It has 52 ideas, one per week for a whole year! She shares some of these ideas and so much more in this episode.

Healthy Screen Habits

Resources

For More Info:

Swimming UpScreen:

https://swimmingupscreen.com/

Resources Mentioned:

Book: 52 Screen-Free-Experiences for Families

https://www.amazon.com/52-Screen-Free-Experiences-Families-activity/dp/B0DNB56D2D

Blog Post:

https://swimmingupscreen.com/blog/freedom-from-phones

Healthy Screen Habits Podcast with Lenore Skenazy

https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/blog-search?searchTerm=lenore%20skenazy

Heed The Children

https://www.heedthechildren.org

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

So often in this parenting with tech journey, I have kind of felt like the proverbial salmon swimming upstream, fighting an oncoming current bumping shoulders with those who may or may not have similar beliefs about technology as my family and maximizing all of my energy just to hold my spot in line. So my guest today certainly understands all of these feelings and more. She is the founder of Swimming Up Screen where she blogs about screen-related issues and also shares tips on how to delay or step back from tech overuse as a mom of six and grandmother of three, she's also a former middle school and high school French teacher who had a front row to watching the increasingly negative impact of phones in schools and felt compelled to leave her teaching career in the hopes of finding a way to help schools develop better cell phone policies. So I found her through a variety of professional affiliations as well as through her latest creation, which is this darling family journal. I'm gonna link it in the show notes. It's called 52 Screen-Free Experiences for Families. And we're gonna talk about all of these things. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Kathleen Barlow.

Kathleen Barlow: (01:33)

Thank you so much, Hilary. It is wonderful to be here. That was such a nice introduction. Oh, well,

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:40)

Kathleen, I have to ask, what was, I mean, you have a lot of sort of point data points on what could have brought you to this point. What was the greatest driver that brought you to create swimming up screen and into this sort of, you know, to get, I keep using these fishing analogies 'cause of your name, but this digital wellness pond? .

Kathleen Barlow: (02:01)

Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah, I feel like, you know, I think everybody who is in this kind of space or any who has any kind of passion, I feel like has a story, right? They have a a, a reason why they got into what they're, they're doing. And that's definitely been the case for me just as a mom of six. So my oldest is 31 and my youngest are twins who are just turned 18. And so I have seen in my own family life the, the increasingly negative impact of, of technology, you know, on our, on our kids. And then being a teacher for about 10 years as well. I taught from about 2012 until 2024 last year. Um, I just saw, I saw it there as well. I just saw things were getting worse. And so I'll tell you where the name came from, the Swimming UpScreen, because, um, there's a book called Upstream.

Kathleen Barlow: (02:52)

Mm-hmm . I think it's by Matt or Chip Heath. They're brothers. I don't think both of them wrote it 'cause they wrote another book that I read. But, um, and they start with this story, and I don't know if you've heard the story about where, um, where there's a couple of guys that are, um, just walking along a riverbank for, and they're just enjoying a, they're gonna have a lunch somewhere, right? And then all of a sudden they see around this little riverbank bank comes this child just struggling in the current and screaming for help. And so they immediately go jump into the, this river and, and pull this child out. But as soon as they do, they see another kid coming screaming and, and, and struggling around the bend. And so then they pull this kid out and then pretty soon one of the guys gets out of the river and just starts walking up the riverbank.

Kathleen Barlow: (03:37)

And his friend's like, “Hey, where are you going? I need your help. You know, there's these kids.” Cause there were more kids coming down by that point, and he said, I'm going to find out why all these kids are coming around, you know, needing this help. And so I have felt like in this technology overloaded world that we're living in, I feel like so many of us are constantly trying to put out fires, right? And we're, we're just, we're just in this reactive mode mm-hmm . And I feel like we need to get on the other side of it so that we can be more proactive and try to fix these issues so that they're not happening in the, in the first place. And so, for many years, like especially as, as a teacher, I've thought if we could just get rid of sc screens of phones in particular outta schools, we are going to eliminate so many issues that are happening in the schools right now. Right. And so instead of principals and administration, spending so much of their time disciplining and figuring out who's bullying, who, who, and you know, what's going on here with the sextortion and all this stuff, if we could just take phones out of the equation at school, I feel like that is, that's what I consider swimming up screen. We're we're going up from the problem and saying, okay, what can we do to prevent all this stuff from happening? Rather than just trying to deal with it, you know, case by case.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:56)

I totally agree with you. It's like, it's like teaching, um, good nutrition, you know, proper exercise and all of that rather than triage.

Kathleen Barlow: (05:06)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:07)

Like having to triage.

Kathleen Barlow: (05:09)

Yes, exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:09)

Yeah. So, I mean, but I, I love that, that sort of little parable

Kathleen Barlow: (05:16)

Oh, good. Have you heard that before? No. No. Okay. Okay. Yeah, it's a really good book too. It's really, so the whole book is focused on that. Like, what can we do to, instead of just always trying to focus on solving problems, how can we try to go ahead of them and prevent some problems from happening, you know?

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:32)

Right, right. So, do you have any, um, just, I, I kind of find that anecdotes and, and parables, . Yeah. Do you have, um, any experiences from your days in the classroom that you like, that you could mention that you saw as like, screens were getting out of control or Yeah, like just, just talk about your experience of being the person in the front of the room Yeah. And looking out and seeing what you were seeing.

Kathleen Barlow: (06:02)

Yeah. Well, I mean, oh my goodness, I could spend three hours, um, talking about this for sure. Alone, Hilary. But, um, just in general, I, I saw, especially, so last year I started teaching at, at a new middle school, and I was trying to decide do I wanna keep teaching or, because my family moved to Utah from New Hampshire about four years ago. And so in that time, I haven't, I've kind of dabbled in a couple, like a long-term sub position. I was teaching online for a little while, but I, I, I was focused more on my family at that point. And so I was, and now I'm at a point like, okay, our youngest are, you know, are seniors and they're gonna be, um, graduating soon. And so I've been trying to figure out, do I wanna go back to teaching? And so I took this, this position, um, that opened up last year, and I just was, I, it, the level of disconnect between myself and my students, I had increased so much. I mean, they were new students for me. So it's hard, you know, to make those connections sometimes, and it takes time to begin with. Mm-hmm. You know mm-hmm . But that's always kind of been my superpower. One of my superpowers I feel like as a teacher is connecting with my students.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:09)

Building relationships.

Kathleen Barlow: (07:10)

Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm . And I was just struggling so much. I felt like there was just this wall between us and the wall was technology, you know? Mm-hmm . And I just, it was so hard because with, with these kids when they're, you know, they have these little dopamine machines in their hands, it's really hard to compete with that, you know? Yeah. And I did have a very strict policy last year. I decided that I was gonna try just, uh, because there was no really, uh, strong cell phone policy at the school. So I said, from the moment you enter the classroom till the moment you leave, there are not gonna be phones out. Right. And so, and they, of course, lots of pushback from the students. Sure. And I was the new teacher, and so it wasn't, it, it does not set up a teacher, um, student relationship in the best way when, when you're trying to take away their favorite possession, you know?

Kathleen Barlow: (08:03)

Right. And so, um, I tried just to do so many things. I'll tell you a little story if you don't mind. Sure. Um, of something that happened with, with a student one particular day. So, um, it was Valentine's Day-ish. And, um, I, again, still trying to, trying to figure out what I can do to better connect with these students. I just thought it'd be fun to bring them a little Valentine. And I, you know, I was teaching French, and so, and Utah, at least where I live now, there's not a lot of kids that are, um, looking to study French. So my classes were pretty small. And so I had the luxury of doing this. So I, I brought in treats for my kids, for Valentine, my students for Valentine's Day. And I decided I personalized them all.

Kathleen Barlow: (09:26)

I had them on their desks ready for them when they came in. And I was excited, you know, just, I would try little things like this, but I thought anything I could to try to make some kind of spark of connection, you know? Sure. So, so this one girl came in, I think she was about 15, and she, um, she saw the bag and she immediately sat down and was like, and it was like she was on YouTube like she was talking to an audience and she's like, oh, here, look, the, the French teacher didn't use my name, which was another weird thing that I felt like a lot of times they wouldn't even use your name. I know she knew my name, you know, but she was like, the French teacher gave us a, a Valentine's haul. Let's look. And so then she started pulling out the little treats.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:06)

Was she recording herself?

Kathleen Barlow: (10:07)

Well, she was doing this, no, she was, but she was, but she was pretending she was. Oh, okay. It was like, she was just pretending she was doing, 'cause I don't know if you've seen that, like they do a haul. Right, right. And so she was just kind of pretending and she was taking out the things and just kind of documenting what she, what she was pulling out of the little bag. There were just a few things in there, but, and the students around were kind of chuckling. You know, the class hadn't quite started. And I was kind of chuckling too. I just thought, it is pretty funny. You know, what she's doing. She's, she's the funny kid. And I was just like, okay, I think there's gonna be, and she was somebody that I was really struggling to make a connection with, and I was like, okay.

Kathleen Barlow: (10:41)

And so I was kind of just waiting for, like, after she was done doing her little, her little spiel, you know, what she was gonna say to me. And I was just so sad that she, not only did she not like thank me, which would've been nice, she didn't even acknowledge me. She didn't look my way. There was nothing. So it was just like this disconnect of, you know, she's being funny and, and, and thinking about what she sees on YouTube when people do these hauls, but was not connecting it to the fact that a real human had had given her these things. And I was looking for a way to connect with, with her and the, you know, the other, other students. And so to me it was just very telling that like, this is not normal. Right. Like, that she's like, she's talking to this fake audience, but yet does not even acknowledge, um, the person, the real person who had actually given her those treats. You know? Right. It was just strange. It's so bizarre. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:37)

Yeah. Yeah. And it really shows, I don't know, like, you know, to borrow a phrase that's been used before, but like, the rewiring of childhood. Yes. You know? Totally. It's, I mean, it, it, it is very, like you said, I think that word disconnect is very telling. Yeah. There are a lot of different campaigns about getting phones outta classrooms and even amongst, uh, teachers, there are different feelings. I've had phone free school movement on. You wrote an article on your webpage Swimming Upscreen about why Bell, why you think Bell to Bell is better. And can you, uh, this is, I mean, it's a whole, it's a lovely long article. Yes. I'm wondering if you can boil it down just a little here.

Kathleen Barlow: (12:37)

Yes. Yeah. Actually, um, and this is a great question because in Utah right now, um, the legislative session is going on, and so we are trying to pass a bill as a cell phone bill, um, for schools. And, um, I went up actually just yesterday at the state capitol and gave a little public comment, um, to the Senate Education Committee, and it did pass unanimously, which is really hopeful. But at the same time, I am, I'm disappointed because they're not, they're not doing a bell to bell uh, bill. the bill is not bell to bell. I've been told that. And I, you know, I haven't worked in this space, the legislative space enough to really, um, I'm not an expert by any means, but I was told that it was not gonna be something that, that this bill would not be passed if it was, if we tried for Bell to be. Okay. And so

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:26)

Just to, let's, let's take a second just to define that term. So

Kathleen Barlow: (13:30)

Bell to, so Bell to bell, yes. Is, so you would, so phones would be gone from when the students arrive in the morning until they leave at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . Um, whereas the bill that, that Utah's trying to pass now is classroom time only. So that means that students will still have phones between classes. They'll still have phones at lunchtime. And a lot of parents are definitely for this, this policy because they want to be able to stay connected with their kids at every moment. So I'll tell you the, the gist of, of my blog posts, which yeah, I'd love you to read. Um, I mean anybody to read at some point. But the gist of it is that, is part of it is that we are unnaturally tethered to our kids way too much these days. Mm-hmm . They are not being allowed to experience the independence that they need to grow and thrive. And, um, in fact, right now, and it's so funny because it, it really connects with the anxiety and depression that's going on with kids right now. I don't know if you've heard that there are new, um, studies and there are new, um, therapists that are using, they're calling it like independence therapy to combat anxiety and depression. And it is, it has been so successful. I can't think of where I've read about this, but have you heard of the Let Grow Movement with, with Lenore

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:44)

? Yeah. Lenore has actually been a guest on a podcast.

Kathleen Barlow: (14:47)

Oh, I didn't realize that, that episode.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:48)

Okay. Yeah.

Kathleen Barlow: (14:49)

She's amazing. And I just love what she is trying to do. And, and, and our kids need that. Our kids need to have time away from their parents so that they can try to solve their own problems mm-hmm . And that they can try to think critically. So if you forget your gym clothes at, at home, for example, right. Then can you figure out what am I gonna do? Like we would have to do right. When we were kids, we would've had to think, okay, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna go down and call the office? But I really hate that office lady do, so I do. I really wanna deal with her, but you really have to kind of go through it. Or should I just take a zero for the day and not have my clothes or, you know, what should I do?

Kathleen Barlow: (15:28)

And you have to try to figure those things out. But today most kids can just text mom or dad and say, Hey, come bring me my gym clothes. I forgot 'em, and mom or dad are on their way. You know? And I have done, I have made all the mistakes, Hillary, I have done all the things, and I still make lots of mistakes with my kids and my grandkids. But I've, I just feel like I have a little more awareness than I did about what the effects are of, of what we're doing. And so when we stay that tethered and close to our kids, it's really not healthy for either of us because it makes us I

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:58)

Totally agree.

Kathleen Barlow: (15:59)

Yeah. It makes us both more anxious. It makes the parent and the child more anxious to be in that kind of enmeshed relationship. Right. So. Right. Right. I think that's one of that, that is one of the big things about, of, uh, why Bell to Bell is better, just so that kids can, can separate themselves and really try to gain some independence and some confidence in their own skills.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:18)

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. In our house, we always had a, um, you get one, I, you know, just to borrow monopoly phrases. Oh yeah. It was one, one, get outta jail free card. Yeah. Person master. Oh, that's awesome. For my kids. 'cause I, you know, I'm, I'm human. I'm like, listen, everybody has a bad day. Everybody makes a mistake. And, you know, and we all Yep. There are times when we all need to ask for help. Right?

Kathleen Barlow: (16:44)

For sure. For sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:45)

So, so I didn't wanna remove that entirely. Yep. But that being said, you got one, get outta jail free card to mom, you know mm-hmm . If you forgot your track shoes, forgot your homework, what, you know, fill in the blank. Right? Yep. And then, and you got, you got to, and it did not roll over. These are not cumulative

Kathleen Barlow: (17:06)

hahaha

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:08)

But because I, my, my theory is once is a mistake, twice is a pattern, ah, and we gotta look and see what, what are we gonna change to help you solve this? This is becoming a problematic pattern. Right.

Kathleen Barlow: (17:22)

I love it. And this is, that is super uncomfortable for the parent and the child to be in that spot. Right? You wanna help, right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:30)

Oh, it's horrible..

Kathleen Barlow: (17:31)

You wanna help. And they wanna be helped. And so you just think, well, let's just do it. But we're not doing any favors to either party. Right. When we're just enabling, which I have done plenty of enabling of my kids over the years and, you know, tried to, to kind of roll back and, and co course correct, I guess, you know mm-hmm . Um, but yeah, so that's one of the biggest, the biggest challenges I see with not having a bell to bell. But there are a couple others.

So when we give students phones or access to their phones, um, between classes and at lunchtime, I feel like it does a couple of, of negative things. One is that it is kind of setting them up for these little dopamine hits that they're greatly looking forward to between classes and at lunchtime. And so then they're just so hyper-focused on those little hits that it just kind of undoes the not having them in the classroom. And I feel like we really need to get to a point where we can help our kids realize that out of that, that they can go for six or seven hours without a phone. And so can parents Right. That we, that we can take these, this time to, to, to step away from that virtual world and that it is going to help, it's gonna help our nervous systems.

Kathleen Barlow: (19:29)

It's gonna help. 'cause we are so hyper-stimulated from being on phones all the time. And schools that are doing this, the bell to bell it is going fabulously. I'm working with, uh, the Smartphone Free Childhood organization, which we're a national organization. So we've been kind of tracking this across the country. And there are so many wonderful reports coming from schools that are going bell to bell. And we have not heard one school that has said we regret doing this or that we're, we're going back to phones. You know? 'cause once they do it, the kids are changing. The students are going back to what the way it used to be.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:06)

And it happens fast. I can speak from experience to this because my daughter just recently, we live in Southern California, and because of the fires and the wind that Southern California was experiencing, we had massive power outages, which lost, um, connectivity, network connection. Oh, right. Right. So the schools were still going, but with, in dark classrooms without computers. Wow. Without, without phone connection. And the report that I got from my daughter was, she said it was so fun. Everybody was talking, everybody was hanging out. And of course, growing up in the healthy screen habits household, she's biased towards screen free activities. It's just, you know, the way she's been raised. But it was, it was so interesting to hear how quickly she felt like people were bonding way faster than, you know, than and at any other point during the semester. Yes. So, yeah.

Kathleen Barlow: (21:14)

What a cool kind of unplanned experience. Not cool, of course, right. For what was happening to those families that I just have been following that and it's been so heartbreaking. But to be able to have a little bit of a silver lining in that you got to see, or that kids got to see, you know, that that was happening. And that was the other thing I was gonna say about when you, when you let the kids have their phones during lunch and in between classes, they're still not gonna be connecting and making those, those, um, attempts at socialization that they, because if you have like, like, uh, the, our phones, we, we call them in the Smartphone Free Childhood. They're frictionless. They're the easiest things in the world to pick up. It's become like muscle memory for so many of us adults and kids alike at this point. Right. And so, when a kid is faced with, okay, am I gonna try to talk to that kid that I've seen in the hallway that seems like, you know, maybe we could be friends, or am I just gonna go back to my game on my phone? That's gonna be a no brainer. Their, their brains are just gonna go, go for that rather than trying to do the more difficult thing of Yeah. Talking to somebody, the

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:15)

Law of the least. That's what Yes. As humans, we always fall for it,

Kathleen Barlow: (22:20)

You know? Yes, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And the last thing, Hilary, I just wanted to mention about the bell to bell, when there isn't bell to bell, the onus is still on the teachers to manage and police the phones. Because if they're coming out between every class, then they're gonna have to go be back in again. And so teachers are still having to be the bad guy and take, you know, have the phones be put away between every class. It is so exhausting. It is such an exhausting thing to do. And it is such a, a, like I've said, a blocker of relationships between students and teachers when, when teachers are trying to take away this most precious item from students. So I, when it's, when it's be to bell, it's out of sight, out of mind for the entire day. And that's gonna be where, where we're gonna see real change.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:09)

Yeah, I agree. When we come back, let's talk more about what you, you touched on earlier about what parents can do if they want a real tech back in, but they're unsure how to start.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (23:40)

Okay. I'm speaking with Kathleen Barlow, author and creator of The New Family Idea Journal. 52 Screen Free Experiences for Families. I have my own copy. It's beautiful. The cover is one of those, like textures that you just want to keep on touching. It's, it's velvety smooth and brightly colored. It's like, it's one of those books that you can have out on the, uh, coffee table, and it just goes with everything. So I love that about it. You put a, you clearly put a lot of thought into that. Oh,

Kathleen Barlow: (24:16)

Thank you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:17)

Um, and I love, there's, it's structured. So there's an activity a week, there's room for journaling, there's some coloring pages. Where did you get your inspiration for all of these great ideas?

Kathleen Barlow: (24:28)

Well, I just feel like when we're trying to look at our screen habits as families, which I think is so important for all of us to do, and my family is certainly far from perfect still. But I think being intentional and aware about it is more than half the battle, right? I think we've just become, so, it's just become such a part of our culture to constantly be connected to our, to our, um, our devices. And so I think a lot of people aren't even, don't even have that awareness yet. So that's what I was trying to achieve, is, is bring, bring that awareness to the, to the forefront for all of us, you

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:45)

Know? Yeah. I love it. So, um, I don't, I, I've flipped through. I've chosen a few things that are standouts for me. It's just so I can, uh, like, share them here. One thing I really like here is you have for, um, number 41 is make a dopamine menu. Yeah. And you say, talk about dopamine, the neurotransmitter in our brains that keeps us wanting more and more. And this, and I'm, I'm gonna paraphrase this, but, um, do, you know, talk about what high activity, uh, outputs versus low activity and decide which activities would be considered like dopamine, fruits and veggies versus junk food. And then create a dopamine menu. I love the idea. This is so you, it's so swimming up screen. Right, right, right. Yeah. Like catching it before. Yep. And, and I, um, I just, I, I wanna get to the part about how we can help parents, um, reel tech back in, but before, but I just have to mention, one of the cutest ideas I ever saw you share was with, I think it was this past October, you had kids in, I don't know whether they're your children or local children. Oh, yeah. Uhhuh. But you had them, it was right around Halloween time. Yep. And they took Jack-o-Lantern buckets. Yep. And they drilled holes in like zip tied them to the top of their, uh, bicycle helmets. Yeah. And threw a glow stick in them. Yeah. And you took 'em on a trail ride. It was about the cutest sinking thing I'd ever seen. Thank you. Just all these little glowing jack-o-lantern in the heads

Kathleen Barlow: (27:34)

. And you could,

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:35)

I mean, you could hit just the joy coming from, you know, the shrieks and laughing. And I mean, those kids will remember that for the rest of their life.

Kathleen Barlow: (27:44)

I hope so. I hope so. And that, you know. That was not my idea. Let me tell you. My idea was, well, my husband and I have been mountain bike coaches for our local high school mountain bike team. My daughters who are now 18, they did it a few years ago. They were on the team for a year. And my husband and I loved it so much that even when they were like, no, we're done. Um, we were like, we're staying. So we are kind of coaches, coach, ride leaders that we ride with these kids. There's a bunch of mountain bike trails in our community. And it is like my favorite thing to see these kids do this. Like they, it makes me tear up because these kids are out there doing such hard things, but also having a blast.

Kathleen Barlow: (28:30)

Yeah. You know, they are having flat tires and having to figure out, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? You know, I've seen kids like holding their bikes, walking down trails, like, 'cause they're like, yeah, we gotta go down. You know, they've just so much problem solving and so much community, so much feel good from being out in nature. So my husband and I have been doing this for several years. It is my favorite thing being out on our trails. Um, and so we decided last spring, and I was, I, I've worked with an organization called Heed the Children, which I know, you know, so Sebastian and Deja, our friends of mine shout out to them if they're listening. Um, but they really focused on trying to build community mm-hmm . And do things in your community. And I had been wanting to start something in my neighborhood.

Kathleen Barlow: (29:17)

I just wanted to start. And I was in my head was thinking, it is gonna be called Friday Night Lights, where we just go out and do a night ride on our bikes in the trails. 'cause my husband and I love, we take our, our headlights and we go out and night rides. It's so fun. Especially in the summer, in warm months. And so I'd been wanting to do this for a while. So I did. So, so all last summer we had this little group, and it kind of turned into, you know, there were different people that would come, but usually there were 10 or 12 of us that would go out on a Friday night.

Kathleen Barlow: (29:48)

Once in a while. My teenagers would come. Usually they didn't. But there were a bunch of younger kids, younger teens there that I was just so happy to because they could experience this joy, you know? And so then that morphed into, I'm pretty sure it was Sebastian who actually told me the idea about this Jack-o-lantern ride that he had seen somewhere. And so it was kind of stolen. But I love this that we can kind of collaborate together and connect with other people and get these awesome ideas, because it was so fun. Hillary, as you described.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:18)

And those Yeah, no, those memories will be Yep. The drivers for next year's activities when kids are thinking about what will be fun to do. Like, oh, it's time. Oh my gosh. Can we go on a Jacko lantern? Yes. Jacko Lantern ride instead of like, you know, playing another round of Roblox or another round of whatever. Yep, yep.

Kathleen Barlow: (30:38)

Totally.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:38)

So, and I love your whole focus on healthy activities for the whole family. Yeah. I can tell you one of the hardest things to hear following a Healthy Screen Habits presentation. This happened right after a Rotary Club presentation. We did, you give the facts and the stats regarding the harms being done to our kids through digital media. And it never fails afterwards. Someone will come up to you, a parent of an older kid, and they'll compliment the work we're doing. Well, they'll agree with its importance, be very, you know, connected. And they'll say, “well, it's too late for my kids. I got a 16-year-old. They're, they're all into everything.” Yeah. And they just, it, they, it's this, this feeling of, I, it's beyond me. Yep. So what, what do you say to people like that?

Kathleen Barlow: (31:26)

Oh, I'm so glad you brought this up, because this recently has been really a, a, something I've been thinking about so much. In fact, I have a blog post that's almost ready to go out that's gonna be called, Giving our Kids Freedom from Phones. And I feel like the message is not being, um, translated out there enough that we can roll back what we've, we can tell our kids, listen, we didn't know that this stuff was so addictive and we made a mistake, but we know more now, and so we're gonna do better. And it's not easy, you know? Mm-hmm . I'm sorry. I just, uh, because I have these, so I have, you know, my, my, my girls who are now 18, they've struggled more than any of my other kids, struggled greatly. I am not gonna go into detail for their privacy sake, but they, I will tell you, it was for parents out there.

Kathleen Barlow: (32:17)

If you've been really struggling with dysregulation with your kids, we saw just about it all. And it, we were kind of at the end of our rope. You know, it was really hard. And that's one of the reasons I became so involved with reading and researching about our brains and child development and what screens and technology are, what kind of effect they're having. And so this, it's been a shift culturally for our family. Most of our kids are adults now, but we still, we all actually all live in the same town. So we get together just about every week for Sunday dinner with my grandkids. And we really have shifted towards less screen time like we used to. I mean, I, my kids used to be sitting, you know, we'd be sitting at family dinner and they'd be sitting on their phones while they're around.

Kathleen Barlow: (33:01)

They just don't do that anymore. 'cause we've really, I've, well, I've, I've just really tried to help them realize that that's not cool. People come first, right? Mm-hmm . People come first before screens. So, but I, I've been kind of on this journey myself, my, my girls who were, are, you know, still a continuous struggle to some extent. Were still having their iPhones, you know, and I would think sometimes I really, I need to get those away, away from them. But how can I, it's too late, you know? And finally, about a year ago, I thought, I, with everything that I know, I am not going to keep supplying that drug. I just can't because it really is like a drug, you know? So we, I feel you, we stepped down to Pinwheel phones about a year ago, and if I were to ask them right now, they would still say, mom, it hasn't helped that much.

Kathleen Barlow: (33:48)

And they are still not thrilled that they, that's what they have. But that's part of the whole process that our kids need to realize. Everything is not easy. They're not entitled to everything. They, and they can do hard things. Mm-hmm . And so they have struggled with this, um, with this dumb phone, simple phone, right? For, for almost, it's been a, just about a year. It was February, last February that we made the Switch. And I actually have another blog post coming out about what parents can do to try to roll back. Because you can't just decide one day I'm gonna do this. Because honestly, there have been teenagers who have taken their own lives after their phones have been taken away. It is a very serious issue and needs to be taken very seriously. And there needs to be some planning done. And really a lot of thought.

Hillary Wilkinson

It speaks to, it speaks to the level of addiction.

Kathleen Barlow: (34:39)

It does. It's true addiction. Yeah, it does. It does. I mean, if you think about, like, would that happen with anything else taking away, you know, it's, it is, it's this addictive device that has become so ingrained in our, in our culture. Um, and so anyways, it hasn't been perfect. And the Pinwheel phones certainly aren't perfect. They mess up a lot of things. They mess up our family group chat. They can't send, you know, videos and, and, and, and so it's not convenient, but that's okay because they are learning how to problem solve. They have gained a number of skills over this past year that I don't think they would have gained had they still been on their iPhones. I honestly believe that. And so they're really heading in a good direction. And I really think it's important for parents to know that it's not too late.

Kathleen Barlow: (35:28)

It's not, we shouldn't be just giving up, throwing our hands in the air. I don't know if Jonathan Haidt who wrote The Anxious Generation, I don't know if you've heard him say this, but it was so funny, I heard him say recently, you know, we people talk about like, the train has left the station. He said, “I don't know about you guys, but if my kids were on a runaway train, that I would try to go help them. I'm not just gonna say, oh, well, the train's left the station.” You know, which I think is kind of this message that's being, um, put out. You know, that's too late. It's too late, but it's not too late. I feel like it's never too late, because they're gonna be adults too, these kids. And they're still gonna be suffering with these same addictive tendencies, unless we really try our best to, to, to roll it back as much as we can.

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:09)

Right. So we have to take a short break. But when we come back, I'm going to ask Kathleen Barlow for her healthy screen habit.

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I'm speaking with Kathleen Barlow, founder of the organization Swimming Up Screen, whose mission is to help individuals, families, schools, and communities to intentionally spend more time unplugging in order to connect. They believe that moving up screen and reducing screen time can reduce and even eliminate some of the negative to effects of toxic tech overuse in our lives. So Kathleen, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask my guests for a healthy screen habit. This is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Kathleen Barlow: (37:05)

Okay. Well, I do have two. I have one for parents and one for kids. Because I feel like it needs to start with us as parents, and we need to acknowledge that it is a problem for a lot of us as well. My one for parents is that, to try to just find times to separate yourself from your phone. I think many of, so many of us are just so used to carrying around our phones in our pockets with us everywhere. And I think it's very freeing and good for us to spend time. And as, as you do this more and more, you can spend longer amounts of time and it's going to feel magnificent, I can tell you to just not have it on your body all the time. And in fact, my, my twins, because they don't have a smartphone, they often will ask me to look, if they need to look up something on Safari, they'll ask me for my phone, which I'm fine to let them use it, you know? But a lot of times they'll say, “where's your phone mom?” And I'll say, I don't know. And I like that. I like being able to say, I don't know where it is. So, but for kids, number one, if I could give parents one tip is to start with getting phones outta the bedrooms.

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:02)

Absolutely.

Kathleen Barlow: (38:02)

That is going to help with so many other things, especially their sleep, which is so important. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:08)

It's one of our Core Five habits.

Kathleen Barlow: (38:10)

Is it? Oh, good. I didn't, I didn't know that. Okay. That's awesome. But it makes sense. Yep. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:14)

Yeah. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Swimming Up Screen and that new fun journal, 52 Screen Free Experiences for Families by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do that, that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Kathleen, thank you so much for being here. I know this episode is a little bit longer than most, but I hope everybody's hung in there because it's been so much fun to hear all of your ideas, your enthusiasm, and just the adventures that you've been on on your path in parenting. Oh,

Kathleen Barlow: (38:58)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It was a pleasure talking to you.

S12 Episode 7: Silicon Valley’s Secret Sauce // Richard Freed, PhD

Wed, 26 Feb 2025 14:43:01 GMT

"The science is clear (children) should have their strongest emotional connections with: 1. Family, 2. School."

~ Richard Freed

Richard Freed is a psychologist and author of the new book "Better Than Real Life: How Silicon Valley's Secret Science of Persuasive Design Is Stealing Childhood."

Dr. Freed has devoted his career to revealing how Silicon Valley industry is using psychology—a discipline that we associate with healing—as a weapon against kids in order to pull them online and keep them there. This is achieved through the virtually unknown science of persuasive design, which is concealed in social media, video games, and online video. Freed believes that the knowledge of persuasive design should no longer be the domain of a handful of tech elite but should be put in the hands of all parents and others who care for kids. In this episode we talk about this and the 2 things kids need most to grow and succeed.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

Richard's Website

Resources Mentioned:

Better Than Real Life: How Silicon Valley’s Secret Sauce of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood , by Dr. Richard Freed

Wired Child: Reclaiming Childhood in a Digital Age

By Dr. Richard Freed

The Shallows

By Nicholas G. Carr

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

The term digital wellness is relatively new. It's so new, in fact, that I often have to explain what it is when I get asked the question that opens most cocktail party conversations of, so what do you do? So when I took my first stab at understanding what was happening to my attention span and why my son was attracted to screens more than any other activity, I opened this journey with two books. One was The Shallows , what the Internet Is Doing To Our Brains by Nicholas Carr. And that kind of gave me a feel for what was happening to my brain, but nothing explained what was happening to my child's brain, like the book: Wired Child, Reclaiming Childhood in a Digital Age by Dr. Richard Freed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:05)

So Wired Child was the book that validated and verified what I intuitively knew and what I knew professionally as a teacher. It really set the framework for how we began our own family's journey with digital wellness. And knowing that this book was instrumental in my understanding of digital wellness, you can imagine how thrilled I am that Richard Freed has published a new book, exposing how Silicone Valley has employed neuroscience to hack developing brains, promote addictive behavior, all for profit. And the book is: Better Than Real Life: How Silicone Valley's Secret Science of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood . And he's here, the guy who helped me start it all. Thank you for being here and welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Richard Freed.

Dr. Richard Freed: (02:06)

Hillary, thank you so much for having me here. I'm, I'm blessed to be here, um, uh, with your group and your podcast. Like thank you so much. You do great work. And, um, uh, I, I know your work and this is where, it needs to happen. Uh, what parents are not getting out there is science and, uh, how that affects families. 'cause as I talk about in, in my new book, uh, pop culture is really deceiving families about what's needed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:40)

Where did you get started? What fuels your passion?

Dr. Richard Freed: (03:12)

I am a clinician. Um, first and foremost my day job is to sit with families and I've, I'm gonna date myself, but I've been a clinician for 25 plus years, and I've watched what's happened to childhood by parents coming into my office. It's broken down a lot by gender because persuasive design really goes after gender-based vulnerabilities. But I've watched girls disappear to their back rooms on phones and social media and withdraw themselves from their family, develop body image disturbance and, um, just fall apart. And I can't tell you how many times girls they go to the hospital if, uh, psychiatrically because something's happened on social media, but there's the content, but then there's this big, what social media has done is pull kids away from the things that they really need. And that's their, their family's number one and school number two.

Dr. Richard Freed: (04:18)

And then for boys, if you and I visited a typical co typical college and we counted, um, men and women there, they would be nearly 60% women. Mm-hmm . Um, at a typical college. So you really see that in practice. Why is my smart boy, uh, disappearing from school? Why, why, why does he not care? How come I can't get him interested? Um, and video games are really a powerful culprit. So I've, I've seen that it's driven me to, uh, bring this messaging out and to describe why is digital media different? What is there is a hidden science underneath, uh, behind kids screens that are, that's pulling them away. And my job is to help us what that is and what we can do to help kids out.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:10)

What I appreciate is that you have kind of taken the knowledge that you've gathered and distilled down all of the research and created, I won't say I won't, I won't call it a playbook, but I will call it a handbook on, um, it's fantastic as far as the exposure of what has been happening in Silicon Valley with its targeted approach towards, towards childhood. As I was reading it, , the thing that kept coming to my brain was, you know how you have some playlists that you kind of like, you like to listen to, but you spend a lot of time like hitting skip or shuffle on, 'cause the songs just aren't hitting. And or maybe you don't even like 'em. And then you have others that you can like, just set it and forget it. 'cause every song is so good. And I feel like Better Than Real Life is like one of these great playlists. Every chapter is a banger. It just like, it hits different for every, you hit ev like you hit ed tech, you hit, you know, gender discrepancies, you hit companies, and it's, you're just peeling this onion back and exposing things that the general public is not privy to. And this whole concept of persuasive design is just one of those things. So that we're all on the same page, can you define persuasive design?

Dr. Richard Freed: (08:04)

Um, I, Hillary, I just wanna comment. Um, no one knows, uh, about persuasive design or, uh, you know, I go talk to large groups of, of medical professionals and I'm like, okay, who knows about persuasive design? And not a single hand goes up. I would like to make persuasive design a household word. Like families need to know what is changing their kids. The book is really an untold story of how, here's this, um, this industry that's coming about right after the two thousands, and all it wants is to increase time on device. And then here's this science that's being developed at Stanford University by Dr. BJ Fogg, right at, in the, in the, in the nineties. I consider him the leading father, Dr. BJ Fogg, Stanford professor psychologist at, uh, uh, at, at Stanford, and, and does the, and started the Persuasive Tech Lab.

Dr. Richard Freed: (09:13)

And, um, and, and it's really about building digital machines that employ psychology, um, with, with the idea to control human behavior. And some of that can be okay, because when we go as adults onto a website and it's functioning well, um, that's persuasive design. When we go to a website and it's not, and we're like, this is clunky and I can't get anywhere, and, you know, God forbid I can't buy what I wanna buy. Like, um, that's persuasive design. So that's a good, appropriate use of persuasive design. But to have a profession of psychology and neuroscientists come together with Silicon Valley, that, that wants to alter childhood, to pull it away from essential real-world activities, to put it on a screen, to have it live there 24/7, that is a not okay use of persuasive design. And, and that's what I focus on.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:06)

Right. It reminds me of, um, our former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, who said, you're pitting children against the, the best computer programmers and designers in the country, it's not a fair fight. And it's not a fair fight for families as well.

Dr. Richard Freed: (10:24)

Um, totally agree. And what's really profound is Dr. Fogg who largely fathered this science. I believe I wrote the first major media article about persuasive design and it's taking childhood, um, back in 2018. And that, that was the genesis. It really speaks to how long this book has taken. But, um, Dr. Fogg responded to that article and said, “I didn't do this. I, I studied the science and I warned about it.” He was not happy with that article, but he, and it, it's almost like he doesn't, you know, what is it about a science that a leading father of it does wants to, to wash his hands of it mm-hmm. And say, “I didn't do that, That my job was to warn about it.” But he, but he, you know, you see in other places that I, “I fathered the science, or I started it” and “the co-founder of Instagram took my class, uh, and, and took, did my teachings and used that, um, to influence lots and lots of people” like, and those, those are the kids that I'm seeing disappear from my practice.

Dr. Richard Freed: (11:33)

So, um, it, it, it's really an untold story, um, that I wanted to bring to parents, to educators, to, to healthcare professionals. It's just, it's, it's not known. I didn't know that much about it and Silicon Valley hides it, like, it, it's, they don't want this to be known, you really have to go dig. It's not out there.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:01)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . So this whole, this whole business, um, of combining neuroscience with, um, programming, with, you know, app development, et cetera, it always, in, in this kind of digital wellness arena, it gets referred to as the attention economy, right? So it's, um, how can we make the most money off of keeping you online and kind of the godfathers or the, the puppet masters/granddaddies, you know, use whatever term you want, are absolutely gonna be BJ Fogg. And I also put like Nir Eyal in that, in that category as well. I just wonder, do you like, I mean, do you think it was just a matter of time? I mean, is it, is it these guys or is it like, was it just a matter of time until this got unlocked?

Dr. Richard Freed: (12:56)

You know, that's so interesting. I think about that, Hillary, that is a great question, and I think about that a lot. And I think about the human condition that we are driven to explore and to invent new technologies and not think so much about the consequences. Let's rush figure out nuclear fission and nuclear fusion. And this is gonna be a wonderful thing. And then we're also gonna use that as, as a means to build weapons that could destroy the earth tomorrow. We, we just rush ahead. Um, and I, I really think you see that with a development of persuasive design. I, I, I call it shoot first and ask questions later. You know, you see it, uh, with, early research, we're gonna, we're gonna build this. Isn't this amazing? Uh, we'll explore ethical concerns later that will be up to somebody else.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:54)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . It's not to go all sci-fi on you, but it's very Jurassic Park. It's very Michael Chrichton where it's the, what's the phrase? It's, it's: We were so busy wondering if we could , we never stopped to think if we should .” You know?

Dr. Richard Freed: (14:06)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:07)

Yeah. So when we come back, let's talk more about the different ways that boys and girls are affected by persuasive design. And, and again, take like a deeper dive into why the whole practice of it is essentially unknown.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

I'm speaking with Dr. Richard Freed, psychologist and author of the new book, Better Than Real Life: How Silicone Valley's Secret Science of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood . So, Richard, you reveal how Silicone Valley as an industry is using psychology, a discipline associated with healing and mental health as a weapon against kids in order to pull them online and keep them there. And I can absolutely see the differences in the way that they use tech. And chapter three of your book is, um, hacking Children's Stone Age, DNA. So let's get into it. Let's talk about why, like, what's going on here?

Dr. Richard Freed: (00:55)

That is at the heart of, of persuasive design. That's why persuasive design works. We are humans walking around on this earth that have brains that evolved for 4 million years to exist in a completely different environment, in a hunter-gatherer environment. That's what we evolved to succeed in. One of one defined by scarcity, um, a hardscrabble life every day was, uh, uh, tough and a struggle to survive. And now we're in this relative time of abundance where you can, uh, get, there's, there's a fridge and there's a device that I'm walking around that can, um, give me, uh, doses of, of dopamine driving entertainment all the time. So we're walking around on this earth. You know, life changed about 10,000 years ago, a little bit when we moved towards more of a, a agrarian farming, but it's really in the past, I don't know, 50 years, and then in this time of, of digital media that it, it's, things are changing exponentially.

Dr. Richard Freed: (02:04)

As I talk about, one of the key ways to, to go after kids, um, is to hack their, um, stone age DNA. We're gonna go in and we're gonna exploit that. And you see, um, Dr. Fogg literally tell you how to do that when we're talking about gender differences, one of the, another key way that I talk about, uh, persuasive design is, uh, su what I call supernormal technology. Mm-hmm . And that is coming off of, uh, supernormal stimuli. And supernormal stimuli was invented or found by, uh, Nicholas Tinbergen, who won the Nobel Prize, um, in medicine. But it's essentially creating manmade, hyped up artificial stimuli that go after our, um, our, our our DNA essentially. You know, this isn't just, um, building screens that are more entertaining for your kid than real life. It is going at the core of kids', um, DNA to their genetics, to their development and saying, this is where you should spend your, your time at the expense of, of, of real life. And if you want, I can speak a little bit now to the differences between how it goes after boys and how it goes after girls.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:37)

Yeah, I'd like to do that because I, you know, we speak with a lot of parents and there are arguments, uh, that, like, say for example, boys who are very into streaming or on gaming while streaming, and they talk about wanting to become pro YouTubers, and like, I, I think it's important that we give parents some ready knowledge as to why this is incredibly, um, slim chances of happening .

Dr. Richard Freed: (04:15)

Yeah. I I have two daughters. They're older now. Um, and I'm a big fan of, uh, you know, gender e equality. I, I want like, my girls to have, uh, or daughters to have a chance at, at life, just like, sort of like in to get jobs and, and so forth. But there really are gender-based differences. And, and that's, and super normal technology goes right after those. So women, and this starts for girls at a very, very young age, maybe five, six. They have strengths in social cognition and social understanding and, um, and altruism. Um, they are amazingly helpful. And this was super amazingly helpful in a hunter-gatherer environment that we always lived in of 60 to a hundred people. I'm gonna help everybody out. I'm gonna know everyone now. We're gonna exploit that through supernormal technology by developing, uh, social media that is, uh, we're gonna tweak it such that it becomes a manmade artificial stimulus that goes right after girls' DNA, um, with, uh, quantified and gamified social connection, uh, that is artificial.

Dr. Richard Freed: (05:26)

Mm-hmm. It, it's much like, um, uh, the fast food industry, developing food in a back room that really goes after our, that's another super normal stimuli, but we're gonna essentially do this, or, or cigarette, the cigarette industry did the same thing. They're gonna add various, uh, uh, um, components to the cigarette and to tobacco to make it more addictive. And that's what the social media industry has done, and it really goes after that, that core girl, um, uh, and young woman strength. And what's really tragic, and you see it and it's so sad, is that, you know, Dr. Fog knows down at Stanford, he says that, you know, we're gonna develop this psychologically driven technology that exploits, uh, this drive towards social connection. But we're, you know, what's even more powerful, he says, than social connection. A fear of social rejection. Mm. And we're gonna go after that. We're gonna target it like we're gonna u the social media companies are gonna use that. So girls have this FOMO, I can't put my phone down, I'm gonna lose my tribe. It's, and my tribe is set up on this random reward slot machine of, uh, of social connections that, uh, girls, you know, can't, literally can't put down.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:47)

Right. They, they, they can see the numbers getting driven by likes and by comments. And, and I, I feel like, um, every, I am gonna be generous here and say “attempt” by social media companies to retrofit their, uh, their platforms to make them appear more teen. You know, teen healthy is, it's a second act, it's not designed in a way that is ever as good as that, that first, I feel like there's not as much research that goes into the helping part as there was the original design.

Dr. Richard Freed: (07:33)

The core of social media companies and, when executives have left social media companies, they say, all we really care about is time on device. And that does not change. Mm-hmm . And we, what we don't, we less understand in modern day culture is it's been normalized that we don't recognize this tremendous shift that's happened in childhood and adolescence, but what, what people don't know is that even if you have a 13-year-old if you have a 17-year-old, um, boy or girl, their most important social connection should be number one with family and number two school. And for homeschooled kids, that would mean whoever's teaching them that might be their parent. So whatever, home and school and the researchers that look into this stuff, and they're at the highest levels of great research.

Dr. Richard Freed: (08:35)

They'll just say, we, we know peer connections really don't help youth. Like what keeps kids from being depressed and suicidal is number one, their family. And number two school, they, they, yes, they'll study peers, but they say, you know, and they, there's actually some evidence to suggest that really of strong peer connections can be hurtful. And I see that in my practice all the time, because what happens is kids, young people, it's normalized that that girls, let's say, disappear to a back room to connect with their friends all, all day. Their number one most important connection should be with family. And if they don't have that, they're more likely to get depressed. They're more likely to get suicidal.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:14)

Well, and see, that's so interesting to me because there's this huge argument whenever you talk about social media for like, you know, pro-social media comments, is that it helps marginalized kids find community. And so what's your response to that?

Dr. Richard Freed: (09:32)

I, I, I talk about that in my book, and we really, that is such a compelling argument. But what we really have to understand is that is how, um, legally that is how the legal teams of the social media industry are, are pushing back in court cases like that is essentially their defense line. And they go reach out to marginalized communities and say, uh, they try to connect with them and they say like, oh, this, you know, uh, join with us. Look, can't you really see, but what we, what really exposes that argument as, uh, as false, uh, hearted is look at the people at the very top of the tech industry. Look at the people, uh, who are at the very top of the health bodies. Look at the people who are at the very top of what I call the Silicon Valley propaganda machine, which are, they are, while they're pushing that message, that industry aligned message, their organizations are, uh, their, their organizations are pushing, “oh, your kid needs social media.” Up at the top, they are saying, “No way - my kid gay or straight, need family, um, number one and school number two, and we're gonna work like crazy to keep our kids off of these devices.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:56)

Right. So let's talk more about this, this whole Silicone Valley propaganda machine to use your, your term. But it's like, why is this whole use of persuasive design essentially unknown? Like, how is it going under the radar?

Dr. Richard Freed: (11:12)

You were amazing in that you, uh, interviewed Francis Haugen, and when you did, Francis said, “When I got to Facebook, I was blown away by how, um, powerful its reach is.” And, um, what you see in, in my domain is the same thing whenever, um, there are key gatekeepers to, um, you know, social media came on the scene right after let's say 2000 and the aughts and so forth. How did that take over our kids' lives? Facebook was, uh, Facebook and all these companies and and Zuckerberg have been way out front. They knew who the gatekeepers were. They went and aligned with them, oftentimes financially to have people that we trust, um, and, and say that, that we should trust them and say that they're objective and they have oftentimes aligned with them. And, and Zuckerberg or Facebook are, are sending them money. And lo and behold, what do you know, those, those people that we trust, say social media is a great thing for your kid. Mm-hmm .

Dr. Richard Freed: (12:24)

This may be difficult for parents to hear, um, but the, the lead organization of, of, of what I call the Silicon Valley Cap propaganda machine is one that has been told to parents, we are your leading group. We are the ones that you should trust. We are the ones that you should follow. And that is Common Sense Media. Mm-hmm . They're funded by Zuckerberg, they are funded by, um, Bill and Melinda Gates. They are funded by, um, Best Buy and, and, and, and companies that are very much interested in putting screens before your kids. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:07)

And I don't think it, I don't think that was always the case though, was it? I mean, we used to recommend Common Sense Media, and then it was like, uh, and even those of us, like within, within digital wellness, all of a sudden I started getting these tendrils of like,” Oh, wait a minute. Hang on.” So what am I, am I correct in understanding that?

Dr. Richard Freed: (13:29)

No, you, you've got it. You've very much got it. Correct. I talk about that shift in my book. I think, uh, Jim Steyer, who started that organization, had good intentions when he started. Um, and you really see them push, um, science-based information. Something shifted in, in, in about 2012, um, right after that, um, where their messaging, um, became frankly destructive where they are. Um, and you really, I, I point out this dichotomy where you see, uh, and this is true throughout, um, uh, all these elements with respect to technology, but you see Jim Steyer, who runs, who's the CEO and founder of Common Sense Media saying, “I'm strictly limiting my kids' screen time. This stuff has the potential social media and video games to steal, um, childhood away” … that, that's science-based. That's great. That's, that's, those are my words. Yet its being funded by Zuckerberg, you look at common sense media's message in all their fancy pamphlets and their messaging. It, it is, um, screen time doesn't matter so much. The very opposite of what Zuckerberg says. Um, don't pay attention to it so much. And that screen limits can actually hurt your kid can be destructive when Jim Steyer is protecting his own?

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:56)

Yeah.

Dr. Richard Freed: (14:57)

I felt like I had to call that out.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:00)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, this kind of goes back to, like you said, like early two thousands when, I mean, it was in, uh, 2010, I believe Steve Jobs famously told a journalist that his kids did not use tablets. They limited technology in the home. And we hear all about these kinds of practices of the, the tech elite, um, attending screen-free schools and all of these things. And I've heard you refer to it as the Silicon Valley exception, and can you talk about that?

Dr. Richard Freed: (15:36)

Yes. It's, to me, we never would let McDonald's fund, um, uh, kids dietary guidelines and, and, and say, well, this is brought to you by Burger King, and this is brought to you by McDonald's. And oh, and behold, your kid should live on a diet of soda and fries would of course be the inevitable conclusion. Yet we see, um, these leading organizations that dominate our pop message about, uh, technology be aligned oftentimes financially with industry. Um, Zuckerberg has given millions to, uh, Common Sense Media. Here's what's also really disturbing the American Academy of Pediatrics. They used to be the Bible. mm-hmm . Until in 2016 something happened. The American Academy of PDI Pediatrics, by and large, is a science-based organization. But there is a small cadre of folks there who have aligned with industry, um, and disturbingly, like we see the, the lead player, uh, Dr. Megan Moreno, who wrote the adolescent guidelines and, and children's guidelines from five to 18, she's been funded by Facebook. You can't do that. She wrote that in 2016. She's been funded by Facebook. She continues to be at, at the American Academy of Pediatrics. She's still part of this organization and was saying screen time is not that important. And, and still promoting and pushing social media when she's been funded by Facebook. That is, that's frankly dirty. We can't do that. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:21)

It's the fox guarding the hen house. Um, and it's, so, uh, the thing I have frustration with the American Academy of Pediatrics, uh, digital guidelines is they're very, they're very, um, prescriptive on like birth through five. And then, like you said, it's like five through 18. It just gets this blanket statement where there's a lot of difference in the, between those years. I mean, there's a lot of difference between 15 and 18, much less five and 18 . So

Dr. Richard Freed: (17:52)

The lead author of the American Academy of Pediatrics is Dr. Megan Moreno, and she has she has gone off on her own tangent. Um, she's a social media advocate. Mm-hmm . Um, you - the American Academy of Pediatrics. It, it's like bringing in a, a, a fast food advocate to make guidelines. No, you just, we just need researchers that, uh, come up with their own independent judgment. Right. You don't need a social media advocate to make your guide, the science-based element of the American Academy of Pediatrics says screen time is a risk for your kid. Yet the, the, the media line folks, right. Screen time is not, you cannot have two different types of science within one organization. It is, you're lying to the public.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:55)

Right. Right. Okay. So the first step in activism is awareness building. And I think you've certainly done that with us today and with writing your book, the next step is a call to action. So I'm asking you, what, what can we do as parents?

Dr. Richard Freed: (19:14)

Firstly, I don't wanna put this all on parents, because it can't be all on parents. I think it's similar to the, uh, tobacco, big tobacco, like we need, uh, schools and, uh, government and all these organizations and healthcare bodies to come together to help parents, uh, protect their kids from the cigarette industry. What can parents do? Um, Hillary like this, this is what parents need to do. They need to join you with healthy screen habits and come to get science and come together in a community and, uh, that that is science-based. And then, and, and take action that way. So I love what you do. I talked in my book, uh, Better Than Real Life about how, um, parents within classrooms come together to say, wait a minute, this, we're getting more and more screens for our kids.

Dr. Richard Freed: (20:08)

This isn't helpful for my kid. And they, they come together and they go to the principal or the superintendent and say, can we not do this? Because as I talk about in my book, like the, those, the tech elite kids, they are not getting screens in their classroom. They are in, in a human-based, small classroom size, uh, where they're bonding with teachers. So anyway, so that I want, um, schools obviously to do their part. And if there is a main message, or one of the main messages that I think is really important, um, for parents is to, you're just gonna hear this pop culture industry aligned message that what kids need most starting about their preteen years is to connect digitally with online peers and online strangers. And that's what they need to find. But we see science tell us over and over, and this is true for, um, for straight kids, and this is true for L-G-B-T-Q kids, uh, we see that kids need number one, a, a strong connection with family. So that as families, we, we need to reach out and do everything to understand our teenagers need us, number one, and then we need to have them connect with school. And that means the institution and the teachers there and some kids there, let's, let's, let's make those bonds happen and understand that unfortunately, because of persuasive design, um, technologies have the risk of pulling your kids away from number one and number two, family and school.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:47)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Richard for his healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break: Healthy Screen Habits for Tweens and Teens

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Hillary Wilkinson:

Richard, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dr. Richard Freed: (22:53)

That's a really good question, and it's taken me a lot of thought. I, I really think parents that come into my office, parents that, um, and educators and, and, and, and, and the highest level, uh, uh, medical and health professionals. We have been deceived by a pop culture that has told us that what our kids need most, as soon as they hit a preteen, and definitely when they're a teen, is that they need their, their online peers. And they need, um, this connection with strangers, uh, most of all. 'cause that's what supposedly makes them happy. That that's a hundred percent bunkum. That is, that is a destructive industry funded, industry aligned message that counters science from the top levels of the best researchers.

Dr. Richard Freed: (23:50)

When we, see what our teenagers and younger people need most, it's number one, a connection with family. And number two, a connection with school. The problem with persuasively designed technologies is we hand them to kids and they will displace that, that kids will disappear from family. They will disappear from their connection to school. I think parents know this in their heart. Um, you know, they're being told,my kid needs their phone and I should just let them live in a back room, because that's what they supposedly need. That is a lie. Your your kid needs you mm-hmm . Family, and then they need to go to school where they aren't on a phone all day, and they need to be connecting with their teachers and the other kids at school and the school staff, and feel at home there.

Dr. Richard Freed: (24:48)

This is what, so take that. That's it. Just take that, that that big industry lie, that industry pushed lie that, and, and that's true for straight kids. Um, and that's true for L-G-B-T-Q kids because there, there's research that says what makes, uh, what makes our kids, um, not be depressed. What protects 'em from being depressed and suicidal and self-injury, and whether kids are, are, are straight or L-G-B-T-Q, um, it is number one, a connection with family and number two, a connection with school. Um, and that's what's gonna keep our kids healthy and happy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:26)

I couldn't agree more. We, our, our mission statement at Healthy Screen Habits is to educate and empower families to create their own healthiest online habits while maintaining technology as a tool, never a replacement for human connection. And that's, I, I could not agree with you more. I'm also going to add onto your Healthy Screen Habit and recommend that everybody get online right now and order their own copy of Better Than Real Life . Okay. Um, in fact, I'm gonna make it so easy for people to do that. You just simply need to go to the show notes of this episode for a direct link. Go to healthyscreenhabits.org, click on the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. It is a groundbreaking book, and you'll find a complete transcript of this episode as well as a link to that book in those show notes. Richard, thank you so much for being here today and for working so hard to really pull back the curtain on why all of us can't seem to put down devices.

Dr. Richard Freed: (26:33)

Hillary, thank you so much to you and Healthy Screen Habits. Um, it's been an honor to be here and to talk with you and your community.

S12 Episode 6: When SnapChat Kills // Sam Chapman

Wed, 19 Feb 2025 06:00:00 GMT

"Gaming platforms are grooming havens for criminals, (gamers) may play with your children for two months before they set the hook."

~ Sam Chapman

Sam Chapman is the father of Sammy Chapman (forever 16) and CEO of The Parent Collective Inc., a California non-profit operating in the areas of social media harm and fentanyl poisoning education and activism. The Parent Collective also provides grief support for those left behind.

Sammy Chapman died the night he took a counterfeit pill that was laced with fentanyl. He bought this pill on Snapchat. More and more drug dealers are using Snapchat as their preferred platform to sell. The conversation has never been more critical - talk to your kids about only using medication prescribed by their own doctor and purchased from a licensed pharmacy.

This episode should be heard by all teens, young adults, and parents - it could save lives.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

Parent Collective: website , facebook

Resources Mentioned:

SB-976 Protecting Our Kids from Social Media Addiction Act

SB-918 - Firearms

Sammy’s Law

Bark: (Use code HSHabits to get money off)

Bright canary

Show Transcript

Hillary Wiilkinson: (00:00)

Today's episode talks about the use of drugs and unintentional overdose. If you have small children, or is someone who is sensitive to this topic, you may want to consider listening at a different time or using AirPods. These are really important conversations that deserve intention and time when you want to address them with your family. In the spring of 2021, Sam Chapman and his wife relationship therapist and author Dr. Laura Berman, made the incredibly courageous decision to open their hearts and share the murder of their son, Sammy. Sammy Chapman was 16 when he died by fentanyl poisoning via Snapchat with a counterfeit drug. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today, and welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Sam Chapman.

Sam Chapman: (01:17)

Thank you for having me,

Hillary Wiilkinson: (01:19)

Sam. I have learned so much from the tireless work that your family has done with exposing the dangers and the negligence of Snapchat through your media coverage, as well as the nonprofit that you established, Parent Collective Incorporated. And you do this all to educate and support others. I firmly believe that education saves lives, and really thank you for all that you do. I wish we were not having this conversation today. That being said, I think it's important to remember who, who was, who was lost, and are you up for sharing a little bit about your son, Sammy?

Sam Chapman: (02:10)

Sure. Sammy was 16 when he died. Um, he was a high school student, uh, football player. Uh, a big bruiser of a boy, um, loving, intelligent, uh, his plan was to become the world's first trillionaire. Um, he was mining Bitcoin in his closet. Uh, he started out not in the closet, if you will, and our, uh, electricity bill went way up and, um, we figured out what was going on, and so he moved it into the closet. Um, he ran a biosphere in his bedroom, um, uh, after he passed, cleaning that sucker out was a terrible task. Um, and, uh, he was much loved.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (03:06)

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I like that you talk about all of his science background and his tech background, because he's not somebody that was unfamiliar with science or technology. And so it's, I think it's important, this is to just illustrate to families that this is not happening to kids who don't have a baseline understanding of what's out there. Or a basic understanding of science, I should say. Um,

Sam Chapman: (03:43)

Quite the opposite. They are the digital natives, and we are the ones who are ignorant usually. And that's part of the problem. And the other part of the problem is the, the design of the platforms and how some of them are meant so that parents cannot parent online.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (04:01)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you and your wife have been so open with sharing your story about the night of Sammy's death. Are you up for briefly talking about it?

Sam Chapman: (04:14)

About? Sure. So, um, we, it was Super Bowl Sunday, and it was during lockdown and during the pandemic. And so we thought that the one thing that was good about the pandemic was that we were sure our children were safe in the safest place in the world, which was our home. But we did not understand the perils of Snapchat. We thought all we had to worry about was nudity pics. And, um, we did speak to our children about that. But, uh, drug dealer reached out to our son through the quick ad feature, which allows them to network among the friends, if you will, of your children and your children's friends on Snapchat. And that's how they find the kids, is they, they get one kid to establish a link, and then if that kid has their quick ad feature turned on, they're able to network throughout the kids' friends and their school.

Sam Chapman: (05:20)

And, uh, so, um, that's what happened to us. They offered Sammy something for free at the bottom. It said, uh, Mr. Dan, 2, 4, 8, I deliver. And a lethal dose of Fentanyl was delivered to our house, like a pizza after we were asleep. He didn't have to leave the front yard to get the dose that killed him, and it was in, uh, counterfeit drug. So he was not intentionally taking fentanyl. And that is how most of the deaths happen. The cartels, uh, are using, um, pill molds for, uh, drugs that people will buy online, uh, to get high, like, uh, Percocet. And they are also, um, forming them into any drugs there's a shortage of, in the United States, so, uh, expensive cancer drugs are being infused with, um, fentanyl and, uh, Adderall, for instance. 'cause there's been a big Adderall shortage. So if you get these things online, uh, it's very likely that there's gonna be fentanyl in them.

Sam Chapman: (06:29)

Uh, the DEA says 60% of the pills sold online have fentanyl. So, uh, he gets this counterfeit dose, takes it, he dies. And our youngest son finds him dead on the floor with vomit coming out of his mouth. This is what happens. It's called the Fentanyl Death Pose or at least that's what I call it. Uh, fentanyl reduces respiration, uh, to the point where they pass out and, um, throw up, and they either die from not breathing or they, uh, aspirate the vomit and that blocks their throat and they die choking. And so, um, uh, I tried to resuscitate him, uh, while my wife called 9 1 1. Uh, we did not succeed. The firemen and the EMT showed up, and they worked on him for 45 minutes and did not succeed. And, um, then the police came and the coroners came. And so we told the police, let's call Snapchat and Snap Inc. and find out what's in this profile and get this dealer.

Sam Chapman: (07:46)

This was in Santa Monica, California, by the way. The, um, headquarters of Snap Inc. Is in Santa Monica. And the police there said that Snap Inc doesn't return their phone calls and they won't help with even a murder of a child who got the drug on their platform. They were, in fact, we found out later, um, letting drug dealers know when law enforcement was inquiring about their profile, they felt their obligation to their user was their primary responsibility not to society or to the other user who had been harmed. that's sort of, uh, part of a later story where I did get to speak to the CEO of Snap Inc. Evan Spiegel, you know, there's such a thing as third party safety software, which will give a parent a warning, right? Um, companies like Bark or Bright Canary, and if that had been integrated into Snapchat, Sammy would still be alive.

Sam Chapman: (08:58)

And he said he would not do that because they protect their data and they use their data for targeted advertising. That's how they make their money. Uh, it allows them to, uh, tell an advertiser exactly who they're advertising to. And so they waste less money with a scattershot ad and they can target, you know, a Barbie to a girl or a soldier to a boy, or whatever gender script you wanna make up as, as a product advertiser. That wound up becoming important because our conversation proved that he knew yes, kids were dying on his platform and did not change behavior. So we were contacted by friends who said, let's sue these people. We're part of a lawsuit. We're gonna sue. Uh, we said, you know, there's a lot of responsibility to go around. We're not people who sue, and we think it, it generates a lot of, uh, anguish for the people who are suing, and we've got enough anguish that we're dealing with.

Sam Chapman: (10:09)

But then the, uh, social media victims law firm decided that that phone call and the subsequent emails were important evidence and that we were gonna be called as witnesses. So, uh, we decided to join the suit. If we're gonna be called into court and discuss it anyway, and have the anguish, we might as well, um, also be part of the suit. I, by trade, I'm also a publicist. And, um, every step that we've taken, I have used as a reason to go on radio or television or podcasts like yours and warn other parents. Mm-hmm . And so, um, we were able to get a lot of publicity for our lawsuit, uh, 65 parents from around the country who all lost children to Snapchat, to Fentanyl poisoning via Snapchat and, uh, in California Superior Court. And, uh, Snapchat, uh, tried to dismiss the case, and Judge Rif uh, said that we need a trial just to see what Snapchat is.

Sam Chapman: (11:18)

I don't know, under law, if it's a product, if it's a service, if it's a, uh, online, um, social media platform, uh, I don't even know where to classify it. We have to hear on that. Um, we took a product liability approach so that we wouldn't fly in the face of free speech. Okay. Defective product, a failure to warn, um, negligence in addicting our children to the platform, and any harm that came from that. And, and eight other allegations that all survived the motion to dismiss, giving us the broadest palate of discovery anyone's ever had against a major social media platform. Mm-hmm . They ask the judge for permission to appeal it to a higher authority because of First Amendment issues. And usually that's not allowed because the appeals court likes a complete record before they take a case. So they make them go all the way to the end. But because First Amendment is such a strong, uh, principle in American jurisprudence, that judge allowed the appeal. And we have been sitting and waiting for eight months now for the appeals court to do something while children are dying.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (12:36)

Die. Yes. Yes.

Sam Chapman: (12:39)

So, so that's, um, uh, you know, we've decided to do something about this, and we're trying to get third party safety software put on all platforms with children. Uh, we have a law that we've tried to put through in California and Illinois, um, and in Congress.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (13:00)

Okay. And I, I wanna talk more about that law, but first we have to take a little break.

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Ad Break: 988 - Suicide and Crisis Lifeline
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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Sam Chapman, dad of two and CEO of Parent Collective Incorporated, a California nonprofit organization operating in the areas of social media harm, fentanyl poisoning education and activism. You also provide grief support for those left behind. I have heard you say in other interviews that if fentanyl is the bullet that is killing our teens, social media is the gun. And can you expand upon why social media A. is this critical piece? And before the break, you started to get into the type of legislation you're working so hard to pass, to protect others, like, like Sammy's law that you guys have been working so hard on.

Sam Chapman: (14:31)

Right. So Fentanyl takes a journey. It starts in China with the precursor chemicals. Uh, the Chinese government is actually paying the chemical companies to produce this. Um, and as terrible as this sounds, they're also sending over the fake pill molds to the cartels in Mexico to counterfeit drugs. And the cartels are taking the precursor chemicals and creating fake drugs. They are liquefying it and putting it into gas tanks and driving it across the border. They are compacting it into powder and flying it in drones across the border, putting it on container ships and bringing it into our ports in containers as big as a house with hundreds of them. So it's too much of, uh, trouble to search them. They're, um, putting them in migrants, uh, pockets and body cavities and making them carry them across the border as the price for migration. And then social media kicks in, and Facebook is being used to get drivers to pick the migrants up at the border and take them to the drug labs or to the dealer's homes, and repackage these things into, uh, consumable drugs in the right size packages for dealing.

Sam Chapman: (16:05)

And then social media kicks in again and solves the last mile problem for the drug dealers delivering the drugs into our communities, um, making it easy for any child that's on any of the platforms to contact a drug dealer using slang or emojis that their parents may not recognize and getting them delivered to their home the way it was delivered to our home. And, um, either killing the children or if not, then addicting them for life mm-hmm. So what we have done is to try and sponsor legislation, um, that will protect our children in any way we can think of. So one method is, uh, a law named after our son: Sammy's Law, the Let Parents Protect Act in Congress. It's House Resolution 5 7 7 8, and it requires third party safety software on any platform with children, including gaming platforms, um, and social media platforms.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (18:05)

That’s huge to include both gaming and social media.

Sam Chapman: (18:09)

Yes. Because the gaming platforms are grooming havens for criminals. Uh, they may play with your children for two months before they set the hook. And, uh, they're using avatars, you can't see their faces. Mm-hmm. And the kid thinks it's their best friend. They've known them every day, and it turns out to be a 45-year-old pedophile or a drug dealer. So yes, gaming platforms like Discord are hugely dangerous, and the platforms with our children do not allow for the integration of third party safety software. For instance, uh, Discord, uh, Snapchat, TikTok, and the instant messaging platforms of Meta Instagram and Facebook, none of them allow for mm-hmm . Third party safety software. So Sammy's Law would just require that they open a link or an API to this industry, and then parents could download an app that would give them a warning if something dangerous or illegal happened on their devices.

Sam Chapman: (19:09)

Uh, the devices that they buy and they own and they give to their children. Right. So we're not editing speech, we're not flying in the face of the First Amendment. We are not trying to sue anybody. So it doesn't fly in the face of Section 230 C of the Communications Decency Act, which prevents Americans from suing these platforms for the harm that they do because they're treated like a blackboard. Mm-hmm . Under a law that was created in the 1990s that where you can't sue a blackboard for what someone writes on it mm-hmm . Um, so that's the way they're treating these platforms. But now, because of the dangerous algorithms and the way they use our children's data, they are driving harm to the kids. Yes. So, third party safety software like Bark, your viewers can go to Bark.US. Uh, that's their website. They have, um, this software, they have a, a safe phone, they have a safe watch. Um,

Hillary Wiilkinson: (20:09)

Titania Jordan has done a previous episode with us in season 11, so I invite people to listen to that episode as well.

Sam Chapman: (20:17)

Bright Canary is out there, um, for whatever it's worth, these, these, um, software work better on Android than on Apple. So if you're about to buy a phone for your kid, make it an Android and mm-hmm. Download the third-party safety software. It has, according to the FBI stopped 17 school shooting, it has called the police over a thousand times when there was imminent harm, and given out millions of warnings to parents on the platforms that do allow it to be integrated mm-hmm . And, um, we believe it's gonna pass in the next Congress. We have great support from the Speaker of the House, the majority leader, the incoming, uh, Republicans seem to be interested in this. Mm-hmm. They like a private market solution that doesn't fly in the face of all the protections, and that doesn't require the social media platforms to change the way they do business per se. Mm-hmm. They can keep doing whatever they wanna do with adults. Um, they can keep sending out, the bad messages, but parents will know what's happening, and we can parent again online.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (21:34)

As long as parents are informed. That's the, that's the catch there is so many parents don't even, I I have talked to parents who have these third party apps, and they still were, there was a lot of confusion on the fact that social media platforms, like you're not going to be covered under, uh, under those certain platforms. And That's right. I think that people just think they, you know, oh, I did the purchase, I did the thing, check the box and I'm done. But it, there's a few more steps that need to be taken there.

Sam Chapman: (22:11)

That's right. Snapchat was invented, uh, to hide these things. Mm-hmm . Because the snaps disappear. Um, it happened when Evan Spiegel and a couple of friends were at Stanford University, and one of them sent a, a, a infl picture to, uh, a girl, and he said, oh, I wish I could have that one back. And that gave birth to what they said was a million dollar idea, and they created basically a sexting app called Peekaboo mm-hmm . And after about a year, they realized that most of the users were teenagers, and so they renamed it Snapchat. And that is the app that 75% of American kids are walking around with in their pocket now. Um, basically, uh, a sexting app designed to do nefarious things, and it's become the dark web for kids.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (23:08)

Yes, yes. No, and it's, um, it's interesting because when my kids were kind of coming of age into that zone of when do we allow them to get social media, et cetera, there, uh, there was kind of a consensus originally around Snapchat that people thought it was better, that it was like, oh, it just goes away. So whatever they send. There was a, there was a false sense of, oh, it doesn't matter what gets said because it, they, they viewed it as a safer alternative is what I can say, which could not be further from the truth.

Sam Chapman: (23:59)

So there are a couple of laws that were just passed and signed in California that I wanna mention. Yes. The first is SB 976, which forbids social media from contacting our children while they're at school or at night from midnight to 6:00 AM and, uh, prevents any dangerous algorithms or addictive algorithms from being delivered to a minor. And so, uh, that's just a fabulous law. The governor recently signed it, and within weeks, the social media and internet companies lobbying group Net Choice challenged it in court, and they will tie it up for at least two years fighting the fight around the First Amendment in Section 230 c.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (24:46)

And they have unlimited funds to do this with. Yes.

Sam Chapman: (24:50)

They, they, they sure do. They have unlimited funds. Uh, the other law that was recently passed, uh, and I testified in Sacramento using Sammy's story because as, as I mentioned, uh, Snapchat didn't help the police is SB 918. And that's been signed, and I believe won't be challenged. Um, and it allows, it mandates that social media platforms keep a line open for the police manned by a person, so that any emergencies or inquiries will actually be handled by the platforms. And it also requires that all valid subpoenas be returned within 72 hours. And these platforms have been sitting on parents' subpoenas even after they went to court, they did everything they had to, they lost a child via that platform. They, for months haven't been returning them, kicked them back from missing a middle initial, whatever excuse they can find. And the reason this is happening is because they, they report the number of users that they have on their platform to Wall Street every three months. And if that number goes down, their stock price gets hit. So they're worried about the number of users, not the health of their users. Yeah. Snapchat, for instance, Snap Inc hasn't earned any money ever. The only income they've ever reported is from, uh, interest income on the money that Wall Street gives them for their stock. And so if they take a hit on the number of users, it's a catastrophe. Oh. 'cause they're, they're not growing, they're not making money. Okay. So why would you invest? Yeah.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (26:37)

Yeah. Yeah. And when you boil it down to that, to that economic level, it becomes very clear why, why they behave the way they do.

Sam Chapman: (26:50)

Additionally, they have a, a cadre of lobbyists. Google has one lobbyist for every eight Congress people and, um, massive donations. In the past three years, the companies have given out $90 million in donations to Congress, and they fight legislation like Sammy's Law, tooth and nail. And we are up against the –, and the reason they have all this money is 'cause we can't sue them. Yeah. The American way is, if you harm someone, they can take you to court and make you pay, and then you won't do it again, because you don't want to be back in court with the next family. Right. And, uh, Section 230 C is standing in our way, and it needs to be changed.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (27:36)

Yes. I could not agree more. It's an antiquated law from a time when people did not have the tools that they have now to connect with the world. And it is, it, it's infuriating to me that it still holds up and all. I, I feel like the other reason why, uh, you certainly know way more about this than I do, but I feel like the other reason why they fight tooth and nail and tooth and nail not to get anything passed is because they do not want a case to set a precedent on anything, because then it's the chink in the armor that will happen. But I, I think we have to keep chinking…

Sam Chapman: (28:25)

Well, I agree. And I, you know, Senator Kennedy says, the new definition of a recession is when Google starts laying off lobbyists. Um, I think the answer is gonna be in the lawsuits. Mm-hmm . Like our lawsuit. Mm-hmm . You know, um, once parents are allowed to sue these platforms, they're gonna have to clean it up. Mm-hmm . And we're getting close. Uh, the third Circuit court in Pennsylvania just ruled that the algorithms and the artificial intelligence that drive those algorithms are not human speech and therefore not subject to First Amendment protections.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (29:03)

Oh, I did not know that. I love hearing that.

Sam Chapman: (29:06)

And that's a federal, that's a federal appeals court. And this will undoubtedly be referred to the Supreme Court, and they can either let the ruling stand and not hear the case or hear it and support the ruling. And once that happens, that will open the door to lawsuits all over the country.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (29:24)

I'm so grateful to hear about forward movement because it's very easy to swirl down the dark rabbit hole of how do we even begin to tackle this? And our messaging at Healthy Screen Habits always wants to be one of help. And I think help starts with hope. And so when you're, when you're giving some of those facts, it's like, okay, so that, that's our, that's our nugget of hope. And I think the, the help component from you also comes from your organization, Parent Collective. And I, I had a little bit of a tricky time finding the website until I realized it was parent collective.org. And I will definitely link that in the show notes as well as SB 976, SB 918, and Sammy's Law all, all will be in the show notes. But, um, can we talk a little bit about Parent Collective and what you guys do and who you're serving?

Sam Chapman: (30:35)

Sure. So we're serving a community of parents and kids, uh, who are in danger. Uh, we're doing it through education, through media, like your podcast, through, uh, creating a film. We're, we're creating a documentary. And so we're doing everything we can to warn parents to challenge the social media platforms that are the delivery mechanisms for these drugs. Uh, speaking to police, working with children, delinquent children I speak to, um, and, uh, my wife, Dr.

Sam Chapman: (31:57)

Laura Berman is a therapist. And after we got grief therapy, she decided that that was, um, something that there wasn't enough of out there available and took it on to her practice. And so she holds, uh, grieving mama meetups around the country and here in California, uh, once a month in Hermosa Beach, for instance, uh, just did one in Chicago, um, 30 to 50 moms who lost the child to online harm or fentanyl poisoning. And she brings in other clinicians and they do grief yoga, and they tell their stories and they get therapy, and they get community and they leave feeling much better.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (32:45)

I've heard you refer to yourselves as accidental activists, which tends to be the place that a lot of people within this, um, arena are. You guys are such a testament to the power of taking care of your mental health and your physical health, and being able to continue living through horrible tragedy and through, I mean, I feel like you guys are really, um, just, I don't know, inspirational, which I hate that I, I I don't, I don't like the phrase inspirational because nobody who is actually inspiring usually has intended to be there. So . But, um, but thank you for all that, that you guys are doing.

Sam Chapman: (33:46)

Well, thank you for saying, so we're part of a group of parents around the country who are fighting this fight as well mm-hmm . In all the states of the union. And one of our roles in Parent Collective is to bring everyone together mm-hmm . And to make our fight bigger. Right.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (34:04)

Right. 'cause we're better together. Yeah,

Sam Chapman: (34:06)

That's right. With fentanyl poisoning alone, we're creating 200,000 new parents every year who have lost somebody, and we're becoming a political force. Yes. Uh, we go to hearings in Congress. We were there when the five CEOs of social media platforms testified in the Senate mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I saw the Senators walking out and I put Sammy's picture up as high as I could reach. Yeah. And the fellow next to me put his son's picture up. Yeah. And the woman next to him put her son's picture up, and then 70 other parents put their picture up, and as the senators filed out, they had to see what was happening in the country. Yes. And then the CEOs of the platforms came out and they saw all the death that their platforms had created, and you could hear a pin drop in the Senate hearing room. And, um, the sergeant in arms made us put down the pictures and they gaveled the hearing to order. And then later on, uh, Senator Hawley, uh, made Mark Zuckerberg stand up and apologize to us. Right. Which he didn't do a very good job

Hillary Wiilkinson: (35:16)

Of, by the way. I do not. Yes, I agree completely. I agree completely. I'm very familiar with the footage. And I was less than impressed with Mr. Zuckerberg's response with that.

Sam Chapman: (35:28)

And Senator Hawley said, put the pictures back up, and he had to look at all of the dead children that his platform had caused and other platforms had caused. Yeah. And, uh,

Hillary Wiilkinson: (35:39)

And he used the phrase, there's blood on your hands and,

Sam Chapman: (35:43)

And bragged about his platform leading an industry leading effort to make sure no one had to go through what we've been through. Uh, and the truth is, um, people are dying every single hour on his platform.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (35:58)

Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Sam Chapman for his healthy screen habit.

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I am speaking with Sam Chapman, the dad of Sammy Chapman, who is Forever 16 after obtaining a fentanyl-laced pill on Snapchat. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one for me today?

Sam Chapman: (37:56)

I do. Until we're able to clean up the platforms and get third-party safety software out there, the best we can do is get the username and passwords for all of our children's devices and for the software that they use, make it a quid pro quo for keeping the devices or for giving them the devices. We still own them, we still pay for them. And we are the parents and that way, if something goes wrong, if you can go on the platforms, you can ask their friends what happened. You can, if your kid doesn't show up at one in the morning, you can find out where the party is. Um, and that'll work on some platforms on Snapchat where the snaps disappear, it won't work as well, but you can still network. And that's about the most protection that we can offer the kids right now.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (38:46)

Right now, until we get those other bills and Sammy's law passed.

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Parent Collective Inc website and the bills we discussed by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast tab and scroll to find this episode. Sam, thank you so much for being here, for sharing Sammy with us and for advocating for safer online spaces for all of our kids.

Sam Chapman: (39:25)

Thank you for having me.

S12 Episode 5: Talking To Your Kids About Tech Overwhelm // Dr. Rebecca Wallace

Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:12:23 GMT

"Split time is….. more about balancing technology with non-technology"

~ Dr. Rebecca Wallace

Dr. Rebecca Wallace became a mental healthcare provider because she wanted to fill in the gaps. She goes the extra mile to support the mental and emotional health of patients with medical conditions as they go through the process of diagnosis, treatment, and life.

We talk about how to balance tech time when you have an ill child as well as how to manage media overwhelm. In these uncertain times we are all feeling the pinch of too much emotion-fed media, listen to today’s podcast to help build balance and get healthy screen habit tips!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Haydel’s Bakery:

https://haydelsbakery.com/

Dong Phuong Bakery
https://www.dpbakery.com/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

My guest today became a mental healthcare provider because she wanted to fill in the gaps. She wanted to go that extra mile to support the mental and emotional health of patients with medical conditions as they went through the process of diagnosis, treatment, and life. She treats her pediatric patients as individuals rather than a diagnosis, focusing care on what makes each patient and family unique and helps them to be their best selves. And I love her self-admitted “little something extra”, which is to meet kids where they're at, using language through treatment that makes sense to them. She explains mental health concepts using Disney movies or Harry Potter and even video games, and I can't wait to hear some of her tips on how to talk to our kids using language that resonates with them, so we can all avoid sounding like the Charlie Brown teacher. So, welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Dr. Becca Wallace!

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (01:15)

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:17)

Dr. Wallace, you have this really interesting focus of helping kids and teens deal with men their mental health while dealing with very weighty physical and medical concerns. And are there ways I, I think there's a lot of mom guilt that comes if we have a, a child who is undergoing like a medical crisis or is even under the weather. I know the screen time, it creeps up on all of us. Right. And so I just wanted to get an official, you know, opinion, if you will. Are there ways to use tech in a healthy way to help kids get through some of these acute periods of stress, like with illness or anything like that?

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (02:08)

Yeah, I mean, I think tech technology and screens are in our pocket at all times, and so it's one of the easiest tools to take to, to clinic, to a hospital and those kind of things. So it's, it's kind of become almost the go-to of like, oh, you have to get blood work or you have to wait for a long time here, you can play on my phone or you can do this. And, you know, my thing I always tell parents is, “you know, you just gotta get through things sometimes.” And so not feeling guilty because, you know, you've been a strict parent that doesn't have screen time, doesn't let them play on their phone, but they have all these medical visits and now you're letting them play on it for an hour a day, and you didn't expect that. And so kind of giving yourself a little bit of leeway to say that's okay.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (02:57)

Um, but also making sure that we do take the time to, you know, pack other things as well. You know, as our hospitals, childrens hospitals are great. They always have color sheets, they always have other things kids can do, so taking advantage of those as well. So it's not the only tool in our toolbox. Um, but, you know, able help them know that like screen time isn't necessarily a bad thing. The other thing is that sometimes screen time in those high stress gives them a sense of normalcy. Like if they're used to playing their favorite game after school and they're having to sit in the hospital, or, um, like I said, those clinic visits, being able to play their game lets them kind of feel normal for a minute and forget that they're at the doctor's office.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:51)

Yeah. I, um, had read kind of all these pain management studies that had come out of Walter Reed using, uh, video games instead of pain, you know, uh, pharmaceutical pain management. And I can tell you when my daughter had to have a pretty involved knee surgery, I, it was one of the only times that she's ever been, I like, I was like, okay, kid. Like, have at it. You know? I mean, it was like we never do tech in in the bedrooms. We never do any of that. But it was, it was kind of, you know, like you say, there's these acute periods where using your best mom judgment, right, and keeping that, keeping that all aligned.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (04:43)

Yeah. I mean there is some really cool research out there that show, like, even during like virtual reality, during burn debridement, um, has a better effect than a lot of pharmacological meds.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:56)

Right.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (04:57)

So, you know, it it, it is a really cool tool. We just can't have it be the only one.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:03)

I totally agree. Yeah. And if you have the ability to pre-think some of those, I, I call 'em go bags where you can just have, you know, your Hot Wheels cars, your, you know, etch of sketch draws your, all of those things in a go bag that you can just take with you. It's kind of like when you, uh, prep your meals for the week, right. You have a lot more success with maintaining healthy diet.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (05:37)

Absolutely. And I encourage parents to almost, if your child's like elementary age and old enough, they can pack their own go bag. Like they can go, like if you know you're going to a clinic visit, like while you get stuff packed say, “Hey, you know, what are five things in your room that you wanna take that can keep you busy?” Like your favorite book, you know, the, the arts and crafting. I think the cool thing that I think is coming out is they're realizing parents are kind of moving away from tech. So some of the old school activities and toys and, and like little like magnetic draw boards are coming back, which I think are really cool.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:13)

I agree. Yeah. And the ones that they have now are way cooler than the ones that I had, which was like Mr. Fuzzy drawing in the beard and then you'd like set it down

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (06:24)

Everyth you had the little knobs.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:25)

Everyth. Exactly. . No, these are, they, they have those boards that, I can't even think of the name of it, but you press the button and it's like, it clears the board. Yeah. Oh gosh.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (06:35)

I just, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:36)

Blew my mind

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (06:37)

They can draw whatever they want on it. Those are really cool.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:40)

Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned briefly about a children's hospital, but I don't think I kind of did a very good job on the intro. You work for the amazing institution of, uh, Children's Hospital, New Orleans, which is a nonprofit facility committed to excellence in pediatric care. As I'm talking to you, you've got this amazing paper mache alligator hanging on the wall behind you, . It's, um, and you're very definitely in the seat of New Orleans, which your city went through a very scary event this past New Year's, and it was splashed all over socials and news feeds when an act of terrorism was committed. And to bring that around to healthy screen habits and how do we deal with this? bBecause you deal with patients and families who are hearing very scary news of a different variety, like a diagnosis, but yet they can go looking up things all over the place and sending themselves down, you know, information, rabbit holes. How do you recommend that we talk to kids about scary things like this, like, like the incident on New Year's Eve in New Orleans when we don't necessarily control the feed of information?

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (08:14)

Yeah, I mean, I think, um, unfortunately the, the timing in which we're talking, um, kind of opens up into that. And I think even as an adult in the city kind of getting the information and, and on New Year's Day there were so many different perspectives and so many different things being shared that I know a lot of adults who got overwhelmed by it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:38)

For sure.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (08:40)

And we as adults have a full functioning brain. Like our, our frontal lobe should be formed by now. It forms in like your mid twenties. Um, and, and so when we consider kids and teens that are hearing this and hearing it on the TV in the background or, um, even like when they're scrolling and, and on YouTube and stuff and they stumble on this, their brains don't fully understand what is happening and they don't understand fully like perspective taking. And so I think it's important to help parents realize that, that I think in modern times, because kids get exposed to stuff so young, we just think kids are really mature and they, if they see it, they know how to do, how to deal with it or they understand it. And the truth is they don't. They know how to fake it. And, and kids are way more mature than we were probably at their age.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (09:42)

But I think knowing that in mind is, it's important one to have open and non-judgmental conversations with kids about everything from the get go. And you know, especially their screen time use like as they get older and, and as they use screen time, I always use the example of driving a car. No one takes their car keys and throws it at their 14-year-old and says, “Hey, good luck. Don't hit anything.” You first, you know, when they start to become ages where they can get their permits, you have them sit in the front seat, you have them watch you, you kind of start to talk about like, oh, notice how this car does this or that car does that, you know, you might put 'em in driver's ed and then once they get their permit and you let them drive, you let them drive in a safe area and you're in the car with them and you're coaching them.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (10:37)

And then that circle keeps getting bigger to where you feel confident you can give 'em the keys and say good luck. And I think that's true with screen time and online too, but we don't do a great job of it is, I think we need to like supervise them, sit in the same room with them as they're scrolling YouTube, you know, kind of watch it together, not creepily look over their shoulder, but like show interest in it.

You know, see what their social media is, talk about kind of following them, um, have them look at your social media and kind of see how it might be different than their perspective. One thing that I find interesting is who your friends are on social media determines what you get exposed to. So like my social media has literally kind of every side of every story. 'cause I have friends that, that are across the spectrum and it goes back and forth. Whereas I know other people who only know friends in a certain like section. So that's all they see. And so teaching kids like, Hey, it can look different, if that makes sense.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:49)

Right. Manage that algorithm.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (11:51)

Yeah. And just being open and honest with them and having like, like a lot of parents sat down and kind of explained to their kids, okay, this happened in this part of the city, but our house isn't there and it's safe, and how can we keep safe in our neighborhood?

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:05)

Right, right. I like that. And, and kind of, I think, um, one of the ongoing challenges that we have with technology is it does an amazing job of opening the world to us, but yet all of that can be so overwhelming, even for, like you said, those of us with, you know, supposed fully functioning brains, . And so I think, you know, uh, I mean just a method of just keeping things local and you know, really assessing what's happening right in front of you. And I think that can bring some comfort. I feel like what you were sort of getting into kind of dovetails with your concept of, um, quality time and prioritizing. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (12:58)

When we are on screen time, we have to try and encourage and try and model, you know, quality time over just kind of quantity of time. So, you know, trying to encourage kids from a young age of how do we do like educational material or even like Minecraft over shoot 'em up games where like we're building, we have to critically think the next level kind of like puzzle based video games.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:31)

We have this phrase “creation over consumption” you know, something where you're, where you're building, where you're involved in, you're moving forward.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (13:45)

Yeah. Like looking for those, or looking for connection, like connecting with friends and family that live far away instead of following a bunch of influencers who you don't really know and you're not really, their content might be entertaining and it might help you kind of socialize at school. So having some of that, but not having all of that. So kind of having more like realistic connections than, than kind of the, the insta reality, if that makes sense.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:16)

Yeah, completely. So when we come back, let's talk more about tips to keep all family members committed to their own healthiest screen habits.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I am speaking with Dr. Becca Wallace from Children's Hospital, New Orleans, and I have never been to your beautiful city . Okay, when I say that to most people, there's this collective gasp and I've heard of so many amazing experience of others, uh, the music as well as really difficult history that can't be ignored. But above all what I hear so many people talk about is the food . So like, invariably when you're having like the what's the best, you know, fill in the blank you ever had, and they invariably New Orleans enter the chat. So do you have, do you have a, a favorite place or a best of meal?

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (15:40)

So in New Orleans we don't just have one, it depends on like, okay, the, the specialty dish that you want. Uhhuh . So for example, right now it's king cake season, it just started yesterday. And so everybody has their opinion of who makes the best king cake and what flavor is the best. And my favorite, um, is traditionally either Haydel's or Dong Phuong, which, um, I'm sure other people who might be listening might fight me on those , but, um, but yeah, I mean, you, you can't go wrong here in eating. Like we joke that at one meal we're already talking about the next meal.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:20)

I's funny. Well, like I said, it is, it is definitely on my list of two visits. I just haven't gotten there yet. So speaking about, and I, go ahead.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (16:31)

Oh, I was just gonna say, I always encourage people who come here to, to see some of the like neighborhoods like magazine street, like City Park area and kind of see the quarter, but also get out because we, we have so many unique areas.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:45)

Very cool. Very cool. So speaking about meals, we are in agreement that designating meal time to be screen free time is very important. And can you talk, I feel like people are probably sick of hearing me talk about it. So could you talk about ? Why ?

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (17:05)

Yeah, I mean, I think, so there's a couple reasons why I think it's important to have screen-free meals. One is that it's our connection to people in real life and our family, our parents, our siblings, they're kind of our practice buddies in how to make small talk, how to communicate, how to take turns, asking questions and, and practice our social skills, which honestly kids today kind of struggle with. Um, and having at dinner time, it's a perfect time to practice that and kind of sit down together and ask about each other's day or laugh and joke about a topic. I think the other reason it's important is eating is a basic necessity for all of us. And when we put the screen away, we can actually focus on like taking care of our bodies in a healthy way and noticing what, what foods we like and how foods affect our body. And I think that's really important because when we're sitting eating at a screen, we don't necessarily pay attention to how much we're eating or what we're eating is we're either in a rush to get it done so we can get back or we're so distracted is it's, you don't know what you eat. And so I think it's really important to be mindful during that time as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:29)

I, you know, I'm having this little epiphany moment and this is why I needed you to talk about it, not me. I have always had this like, oh yeah, mealtimes screen-free and everything with, with families, but I've never stopped to consider the importance of keeping mealtime screen-free when I'm eating by myself.

If I'm eating by myself, I even at a restaurant, you're much more likely to whip out your phone and you know, for some, I mean for sometimes it's a little uncomfortable to just be looking around, you know? But, um, I think that that is going to be a, a new focus for me to really be aware of keeping, yeah, keeping devices away anytime I'm eating, so not just when I'm with my family.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (19:30)

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to do. Yeah, it's hard to do, especially alone is we do, we are like, oh, well I'm less creepy if I'm looking at my phone while I eat

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:38)

Which is weird because it's like, especially as women, like you're supposed to be really aware of your surroundings and everything else. Like, you know that all that doesn't go away. So it's, uh, it's important We know that big tech uses persuasive design and the reward system in our brains to help us to keep us connected to that device. Like we were just talking about. It's more comfortable to just dive into your phone rather than sit and look around. But you have this concept of split time and I think that's really interesting. Can you talk about that whole attention economy, I think your split time really helps to manage that.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (20:33)

Yeah, and I mean, I think, so the thing that people don't realize is a lot of this screen technology, especially nowadays, they have some very intelligent people working on it. And they actually have like psychologists and like sociologist who their whole job is to figure out how to get you to be most engaged and keep you engaged. And the blessing of that is, I mean, it's really cool when you look down at how it works, but the curse is, it, it teaches kids and it teaches us to have more limited attention, less focus, less delayed gratification. And because you're right, everything like I get through this level, I get my points and I'm onto the next. Um, and so split time is, for me, it's more about balancing technology with non-technology. And so making sure, like rather than having hard lines of like, okay, an hour a day is gonna be technology, we don't care what it is, but it's an hour a day.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (21:34)

Um, which kind of makes it hard to balance is it saying, okay, if you're gonna spend a hour on technology, we're gonna make sure we have an hour to do things that are off screens and, and are more engaging. So like you can build with Legos, you can do arts and crafts, you can go outside. There's so many health benefits to just even being outdoors that, you know, we probably took advantage of when we were kids. And again, it was probably safer. It was more of a community thing and it was something we did where kids nowadays, there's some kids that never go outside if they're not getting in a car to go somewhere else. Um, or they're outside on their phone and so they don't notice it. So split time is just learning about these other aspects of life and using other aspects of your brain to kind of have a better understanding of the world and actually, you know, get away from that. Well, I'm bored 'cause my phone is dead of knowing, okay, well I can build with Legos and that's gonna take a lot of sustained attention. You know, I can, you know, draw something or make something or do a puzzle, um, or, you know, go for a walk and kind of observe the world around me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:53)

Two things come to mind. I love all the ideas that you have. I think it's probably helpful for people to have those listed somewhere or even, you know, with, if you've got early readers, even pictures of, you know, pictures of blocks, pictures of a tree, pictures of, you know, just as like reminders. Because again, to bring it back to the food analogy earlier, you know, I mean, it's so much easier to just grab the unhealthy choice if you can't, if you don't have things lined up, which the, the split time thing where you're like, you know, balancing the time for time. I really like that. 'cause um, it reminds me of when my kids were younger, we had, we had a snacking rule called package snacks, which were always in the same box. And those were anything that like, you know, like granola bars or, so, you know, something that came in a non-natural wrapping, like a peel would be a natural wrap. So it was like for every, you could have whatever snacks you wanted, but you had to balance, if you had a package snack, you couldn't have another package snack, you had to have a, you know, a, a healthy choice or whatever. And that sounds very judgmental to call it healthy choice. I think I had a different…

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (24:23)

No, like more of a natural choice, like through

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:25)

Yeah,

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (24:25)

Yeah. With like exactly crackers. Like you can't exactly just eat five bags of chips.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:31)

Right, right. So yeah, it kind of, but your split time kind of reminds me of, of that .

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (24:38)

Absolutely. And I am, um, I am a big supporter of, of lists, whether it's pictures or words, um, for kids to know what their options are. I think it's a great activity. Again, elementary school, they're learning, they want to practice writing their words, have them make it and keep it on the fridge or on a bulletin board by like the family area. So they know like, okay, so one of my tools is screen time, but is that watching a movie on the tv? Is that playing on my switch or is that, you know, playing on a tablet? But then, you know, my non-technology is I can do all of these things. So instead of the whole go play with something I don't know, mom, I'm bored. You decide, you can say, “okay, here's your menu, you choose.” I think that really empowers the kid, but it also like takes away from that back and forth argument of like, “do something. Um, and it's a great response when your kid comes to you and says, I'm bored. You can be like, okay, bored. Here you go. Like, choose something.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:05)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, we have to make, take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Wallace for her healthy screen habit.

Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Dr. Becca Wallace, and now on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask my guest for a healthy screen habit, which is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (26:41)

So mine might be a little bit more shocking, but it's, if you're extremely emotional or your child gets extremely emotional, get off the screens. So especially like the tablets and the, um, video games and stuff like that, if we're thinking with our emotional mind and then we get in the super stimulating situation, it's only going to feed the emotion and make it worse. Or like say we're playing a game, a kid's playing a game and they get frustrated, the longer they play it, the more frustrated they're gonna be. So when we start to see those emotions coming in and feeling really emotional, I really encourage people to take a break from it, um, and do something sensory. So a sight, a smell, a sound, a taste, a feeling like go stand outside and, and kind of take at least a five or 10 minute break from the screen so that your brain can kind of calm down and come out of that emotional mind and you can get more to like logical thinking.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (27:45)

And I think that's especially true in teaching kids because we, our gut instinct is, oh my gosh, my child's screaming. I'm in a restaurant here, I'll throw my phone at them. And that might make them happy short term, but it's not necessarily kind of teaching them how to control their emotions. So trying to have them like take a minute to take them outside or give them like some ice to suck on, um, doing something that might calm them a little bit before we give them the screen can keep that emotion a little bit lower.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:20)

It's gonna be good practice for me to remember to kind of verbalize that when I'm doing it in front of my kids. Like if I get an upsetting message or if I'm something, or if I'm, you know, something happens and I'm really annoyed I am, I'm going to work on saying, “Oh my gosh, I'm so annoyed right now. I need to go walk it out.” Or “I need to go brush the dog.” Or I need to go, you know, my big thing is vacuuming. But, uh, but like to to make that transparent to them, so that they can see it being modeled. I think sometimes we do things and we don't think to vocalize it, and that's, that's kind of like a lost teachable moment if we don't do that.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (29:23)

I absolutely agree. And I, I really encourage parents, especially when it comes to emotion regulation, to model for your kids. And, and almost like parents say they make it, it makes them feel weird, but to say, I am taking a five-minute break. I'm gonna go get a drink of water, I'm gonna go sit in my room by myself, you know, I'm gonna put myself in a timeout. Um, I'm gonna suck on a sour candy. Like to actually verbalize what you're doing, um, because it, it teaches kids that one, it's okay to feel that emotion. And two, there are healthy ways to deal with it and if we can actually model and verbalize that, our kids are gonna learn that from us rather than learning, you know, oh, on YouTube, the kid doesn't get their way and they freak out and cry until mom gives it. And so like, they're gonna get it modeled one way or the other. And you would rather, as a parent be able to model a healthy way. But it also, like as parents, we gotta, we gotta be our first, our first practice dummy. Like we have to calm ourselves down in a healthy way, um, because kids are gonna learn our habits one way or the other.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:37)

Right? Right. We have this thing called the cycle of vulnerability that happens with big feelings, screen overuse, and it leads to a compounding of, you know, not-so-great choices online. Yep. And it just, you can see how people get stuck in a loop and um, yeah. Yeah. So thanks for help with that. Absolutely. . So you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to Children's Hospital New Orleans by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Dr. Wallace, thank you so much for being here today and for working so hard to keep kids' mental health a priority in our healthcare system.

Dr. Rebecca Wallace: (31:28)

Definitely. Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it.

S12 Episode 4: Scrolling to Death // Nicki Reisberg

Wed, 05 Feb 2025 06:00:00 GMT

"(a mom) …found screenshots on her son's phone of the chatbot suggesting that he kill his parents because of his screen time limits."

~ Nicki Resiberg

As a former social media executive turned social media reform advocate, Nicki Reisberg, hosts Scrolling to Death, a podcast for parents who are worried about social media. It's a safe space to amplify stories of harm while educating parents on how to keep their kids safe in a world that is trying to addict and manipulate them.

In this episode learn all about the broken system of tech in our schools and the new threat of Character AI. Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.scrolling2death.com/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

If you are into golf, you go to the golf channel, sports, you hit ESPN economy or politics, you have your own trusted resources. And my point being is that it seems like whatever specialty, niche or area that you are interested in, you can find a news source. And that is where my guest today comes in. As a former social media executive turned social media reform advocate, she hosts Scrolling to Death, which is a podcast for parents who are worried about social media. It's a safe space to amplify stories of harm while educating parents on how to keep their kids safe in a world that is trying to addict and manipulate them. Welcome and thank you for being here, Nicki Reisberg.

Nicki Reisberg: (01:16)

Thank you, Hillary. You have such a good podcast voice. I feel like I need to hire you for my intro.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:22)

No, and and I listen to you so much. I'm like, oh, she's, she, there's the pro

Nicki Reisberg: (01:27)

Oh no. Everyone doesn't like their own voices, you know? Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:31)

Exactly. Nicki, you had a career in media in tech mm-hmm . Prior to turning to this role of advocacy. So you were probably used to seeing yourself a little bit .

Nicki Reisberg: (01:43)

What? No, I was behind the scenes. I didn't want, no, I was not, I was pretending to be other companies, pretending to be companies or executives on social media. So I was acting as them, writing their posts, posting and interacting. Wow. So I was like a social media manager. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:01)

Wow. So you, you were like a, a mole on the inside for digital wellness .

Nicki Reisberg: (02:08)

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:08)

What brought you to this point in digital wellness?

Nicki Reisberg: (02:12)

Oh my gosh. So

Hillary Wilkinson:

You've crossed over.

Nicki Reisberg: (02:15)

Yeah. Um, I, I ran my own social media marketing business for 10 or 15 years. I always get confused on the timeline. Um, but I was just starting to realize how manipulative the whole thing was and how I was able to really, how much I was able to learn about these people that were giving away all this information on social media. And, you know, I also, my kids were getting older and I was starting to think about how much am I sharing them on social media? What am I gonna do when they start to ask me for devices and platforms like this? And so I started to do research and I was just shocked to learn about the issues around social media use, particularly for young people, and how much anxiety it was causing them. And so I thought that, you know, I, I'm feeling really not good anymore about what I'm doing in, in my social media role.

Nicki Reisberg: (03:09)

And I switched it up and, you know, I wanted to be a space where we can learn what's really happening behind the scenes of social media as parents in order to inform our decisions. And, and one of the big things I try to do is share real stories from parents who have suffered some sort of social media harm and even lost a child. And those are extremely hard stories, but they are so similar to what just a normal family is dealing with in their home. And, and so that's what what I created is a safe space for those stories to be shared.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:42)

Mm, mm-hmm . And so, um, just so I know what your timeline was, when, when did you start Scrolling To Death?

Nicki Reisberg: (03:51)

2023. So just September of last year, I guess, depending on when this goes out. September of 2023. Uh, but I had deleted my personal social media in 2020, so I had not been active on social media personally in three and a half years at this point. Uh, so I am not used to being on screen and being the talking head. And so that's been an interesting transition for sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:16)

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's super interesting to hear everybody's path. And we've got a lot of folks that will call themselves like accidental activists or, or intentional activists, you know? Yeah. And, um, sadly, a lot of the accidental sorts come from a place of loss. mm-hmm . Like you've said. Mm-hmm . And, um, those are, those are really hard stories for me to do. Yeah. And I feel like you are right in the thick of that, and with all the research you've done and the stories you cover mm-hmm . I feel like, um, we're in the same boat in believing that social media definitely has a role to play in the anxiety, the depression, the, you know, the, the hopelessness that, that a lot of the kids that we work with or that we hear stories about or dealing with mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:47)

What do you find are the biggest threats that kind of fly under the radar of most parents?

Nicki Reisberg: (06:00)

I think that most parents are still giving their kids iPhones, which is just a base issue. It's a societal change that needs to happen. These Apple iPhones are not safe for kids. They weren't built for kids. The parental controls suck. Mm-hmm . And so parents need to start thinking about if that's the phone they're gonna choose. They have to give it way later, way, way, way later. 16, you know, and if you wanna give your kid a device earlier, it needs to be a kidsafe device. And there are plenty of companies that do that, or even a watch. Um, so that's something that you can stop the harms at the source. Mm-hmm . Uh, if you do, and if and when, if you do give your child an iPhone, those app store ratings are not to be trusted. This is something I'm learning a lot about right now, is something can be rated 12 plus in the App store, but will expose your child to sexual exploitation or anything that is you don't want them accessing. So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:57)

And the companies write their own rating. The companies do the age ratings. There was, there was an act back in the day called the Earn It Act that uhhuh kind of got shelved after, you know, I mean, I'm talking pre-Covid days, but it was supposed to Yeah. What it was supposed to write in legislation for, for age based. Hmm.

Nicki Reisberg: (07:19)

Go ahead. Yes. And the, and the issue with it is that it is the company, they're the, the app company, right? They're, they're filling out a little form, um, to try to say what their age rating should be, and then the app store reviews it. But very rarely challenges the app because Apple's app store makes them a ton of money. I think it's about 20% of their revenue comes from the app store. So Apple benefits from having a lower age rating within the app store for any of these apps. And so there should be a third party reviewing these apps. Um, also reviewing them regularly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:55)

Yeah. A third party who specializes in child development.

Nicki Reisberg: (08:00)

Correct. Right. you're right. I mean, this is a huge broken system that parents are just trusting that. I mean, why should we not, we don't think companies are lying to us or trying to deceive us, but that is exactly what is happening. So I would say just do your, do your homework on, on Apple and the products and the app store, and don't trust that what they're telling you is safe, truly is. Um, one more threat I would think that is flying under the radar is AI chatbots.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:30)

Absolutely.

Nicki Reisberg: (08:31)

One of the largest companies that offers this product is called Character ai. And it is an app in the app store. It's also available on, uh, internet browsers. It came out in 2022. And we're just now realizing that these chatbots are extremely unregulated and unsafe and are actually abusing emotionally and sexually abusing children. And so if you just look up character ai, uh, you'll find these stories. I've been able to interview a couple of parents who have either lost their child because the chatbot encouraged them to take their life, or another child who is self-harming and actually in the hospital currently because the chatbot taught him to hurt himself.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:16)

How to cut? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm . Yeah. NPR just had a, uh, we're we're recording in, uh, early December of 2020. What year are we? 2024 .

Nicki Reisberg: (09:27)

Yeah. It's almost done. So, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:29)

Um, and NPR just broke out with a story this morning about a chatbot that encouraged, um, a child to murder his parents due to screen time. Screen time. Yeah.

Nicki Reisberg: (09:43)

So that is the interview that I have with that mom who's found, who found these screenshots on her son's phone of the chatbot suggesting that he kill his parents because of his screen time limits.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:56)

Yes.

Nicki Reisberg: (09:57)

You've never heard of anything as horrible as that. And ever since I shared that story, I'm now getting messages from other parents with screenshots of literal abuse and grooming happening to their children on this character AI chatbot app. And there are others. And so we need to be very careful about

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:13)

This. Oh, yeah. No, I went into character AI and created a false account as a 15-year-old girl. Okay. I deliberately kept my interactions to just like a couple words of interaction. You know, I was trying to be very 15, very, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, each interaction was no more than five or six words. Mm-hmm . And within four, like, but within four lines, chats of communication, it turned highly sexual and highly, um, for lack of a better word, I'm gonna say, like, um, misogynistic. Mm-hmm . And when I was saying, I want to go, let me go, it kept coming.

Nicki Reisberg: (11:03)

Oh my gosh.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:04)

So it's a, it's a dangerous space. Mm-hmm

Nicki Reisberg: (11:07)

Yeah. It was 12 plus in the app store from 2022 till I think April of 2024. And so parents are trusting this, and that's what they're getting access to something that's gonna exploit them and groom them. And so, um, yeah. You can, any parent should go on there and test it. Yes. I'm not trying to get them more downloads, but I think we should test it for ourselves.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:28)

Yes, I agree. Before

Nicki Reisberg: (11:29)

We let our kids use it. Or don't Definitely don't let your kids use it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:32)

. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. When we come back, we're going to talk a little bit about ed tech and how tech and our schools is affecting our kids.

__________________-

Ad Break: HSH Workbook

__________________

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:24)

I'm speaking with Nikki Reisberg, the host of the podcast, Scrolling To Death and an ardent activist surrounding online harms. It's the mission of scrolling to Death. And, uh, also it's a listeners to force change through kids online safety legislation influencing societal shift. And I think the, the core belief, or the core mission is to just let kids be kids for as long as possible. Yeah. And this includes delaying smartphone, social media, what we covered earlier, but also educating our kids on the fact that they're a product to these companies and nothing more. They're not, I mean, nobody is looking out for them. Nobody will ever look out for you like your mom will . That's true. So, Nikki, let's talk a bit about ed tech. So this is education, tech and school issued devices, which I know you have had your own line of experiences with them mm-hmm . And can you share?

Nicki Reisberg: (13:37)

Sure. I've been having an issue with those things for years. Um, you know, I think that these big tech companies, mainly Apple and Google, who create, uh, the Apple iPad and the Google Chromebook, which is being handed to children as young as four years old in TK or pre-K at public schools or even private schools, uh, they're making $60 billion off of these government contracts to provide technology into schools that is not only harmful, it's not very educational. They gamify learning, which is proven to not work very well. Kids are getting access to super inappropriate things on these devices. Uh, dangerous advertisements are popping up. Our children are, um, their data is being stolen from them without our approval and being sold to third parties. So there are a bunch of issues with it. But personally, I've been trying to advocate within my own children's public school to limit their use for years and just cut back on the amount of screen time.

Nicki Reisberg: (14:38)

I had a particular issue with YouTube and them having access to YouTube. 'cause I know how dangerous that platform can be. And so was going back and forth with the school for over a year to try to get them to remove it. And then one day I decided to just do a spot check on my third graders iPad. So I went into the classroom and went to YouTube and clicked on shorts, which is like the short TikTok, like videos, right. That they recommend for you. And I scrolled for under two minutes and was served a blatant self-harm video. A video saying, hurting yourself is easy, and showing a cut with blood dripping down. And luckily I found that, but that is something that would've absolutely been served to my daughter. Should she have just visited YouTube. She would've watched that and then YouTube would've served her more and more of this type of content until she thought that it was normal to hurt herself.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:31)

Right.

Nicki Reisberg: (15:32)

So I think the big lesson for me is just because this tech is at school does not mean it is safe. The school districts most, some are doing the best that they can given the resources that they have, but it is, the safety features are so limited that I've had to try to opt out at this point because I don't trust these devices to be safe enough for our children. Uh, and through this, through sharing this story, I've had hundreds of thousands of parents reach out with very similar concerns mm-hmm . And so I am now creating, and it'll be live by the time this goes out, um, something called the Tech Safe Learning Coalition, which is a whole website where I will be offering resources to parents on how to advocate and ask the questions and make requests of their school to help, uh, get their kids safer, like, um, using these devices more safely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:24)

Oh, you totally, uh, preempted my next question. Oh, sorry, . No, no, no, no. But it's, it's kind of, it's a perfect segue. Good, good, good. Because I was, uh, yeah. What I wanted to, what I was thinking was like, um, so how can parents effectively communicate their wants, wishes, desires, surrounding tech use at school with, with like, with school and in building their own kind of groups of parenting support friends, you know? Yeah. So I feel like when you, if you have several parents, I feel, I feel like just, I mean, having, you know, I mean, I'm a mom. I know what it's like mm-hmm . You don't, you don't wanna be that mom, even though I'm that mom,

Nicki Reisberg: (17:09)

Hillary

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:10)

Know you are. I know . I know. But like Nikki, honestly, you're like kind of, I mean, you're a total baller. You're running this Scrolling To Death podcast you're doing, I mean, you do the hard stuff. Mm-hmm . Not everybody is cut from Nikki Reisberg cloth. Mm-hmm . Is what I'm saying. You know what I mean? There's plenty of people who are like, oh gosh, that's really mm-hmm . I don't wanna do that, but I don't wanna be that mom. You know? Yes. Sure. So how, how can people kind of get support and forward movement?

Nicki Reisberg: (17:43)

I don't, yeah. And I don't like confrontation. I don't like this, this role. And, you know, when it comes to the school, because it is uncomfortable having to speak up for some reason, it, I know it should be our right. I mean, it's our kids using these devices for hours every day. It should be our right to ask questions about that and speak up. But for some reason it feels very uncomfortable. So, you know, I think that talking about it with people at pickup, talking about it with your kids', friend's, parents, is completely appropriate and actually necessary to compare notes. And that's why I had thought to actually check my daughter's iPad that day, is because another boy in school who I'm friends with, his dad had told me his son received an ad, a pop-up ad of a naked woman while he was at school.

Nicki Reisberg: (18:26)

And so you'll compare stories and probably be shocked to learn what you are hearing or seeing. Um, I think that parents should not be afraid to ask questions of their principal on how their kids are, are being kept safe on these devices. What apps do the kids have access to? What data is being, uh, taken from their children and logged? And who's that being shared with? So I've created resources with some of these questions. Um, but I think too, that device does not belong to your child. You sh you have every right to walk into that classroom and say, I'm gonna take a quick look at my child's device and check that search history. Type in some websites that may be problematic into the search bar, test it out yourself, especially if they bring it home. Like you can have lots of time with it to poke around and really dig in and see what they can access and, and, you know, and then help out the district with like, Hey, I was able to access this and this and this. I need to let you know about that. Right. Um, so it's all about being brave enough to like speak up and have those conversations and remembering that it's really important that we do so. 'cause our kids are spending time on that thing. We don't know what they're looking at.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:39)

Yeah, and it's interesting because when I've had conversations about, um, at, you know, the devices at school mm-hmm . The thing that typically the admin will fall back on is their school firewall, which is fine. And well, as long as the device is on school property, which not to say that the firewall is completely effective mm-hmm . But many, I don't, I don't think that many parents realize that once the tech, once, you know, the tech leaves the property, they're not necessarily protected off, off grounds. Yeah.

Nicki Reisberg: (20:11)

So I've heard different things on that. I've heard that Yes. They are protected at, at home as well. I've heard they're not, I've heard parents can't add any additional protections. That's another thing. Yeah. Or maybe until a certain time of night that's, that's not cool. Like, I should be able to shut that thing down and add additional parent controls on there. Um, so yeah, it's confusing. It's very confusing. And I think it is maybe meant to be that way. Like the, the product designers don't want parents messing around on, they, they wanna get as much data. It's still all about our kids' data. They want that data. Right. Data is gold. And so that's all it comes down to.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:50)

Right. When we're talking about school devices and we're talking about school usage, it is the streaming that is the most problematic. It's the YouTube, it's the YouTube shorts. Yeah. It's, yeah. You know, it's the, it's all of that where when you go in and you see the minutes allotted for mm-hmm . For the, how much time they have spent mm-hmm . I mean, there are people who are realizing that their child has essentially spent four and a half hours of a six hour school day watching YouTube videos, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And that's, it's not an uncommon story at all.

Nicki Reisberg: (21:28)

No, not at all. What did that, we can't blame them for that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:32)

Oh, no!

Nicki Reisberg: (21:33)

It's, so the, one of the reasons why they're so ineffective is because of the distractions. Oh,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:38)

For sure.

Nicki Reisberg: (21:38)

Access to addictive platforms like YouTube for sure. That YouTube can't and should not be available at school. That's crazy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:46)

I agree. And here's what I don't get, Nikki. I mean, as taxpayers, public schools are something that we fund.

Nicki Reisberg: (21:57)

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:58)

Why aren't taxpayers livid at this blatant misuse of funding in like, I mean, I don't wanna pay my, I, we, you know, we both live in southern California. It's not cheap to live here. Right. And how is it that our taxes are going to, having kids watching YouTube for, you know, four and a half hours a day?

Nicki Reisberg: (22:25)

We've gone way too far with this. It is, I think people are coming to and realizing that we were just trusting the schools that because that device is at school, it must be kept safe. And we're finally realizing, oh, that's not the case. There are entire law centers now, Ed Tech law centers that I talk to a lot because kids are getting so harmed by these devices at school that they need to get a legal counsel. Uh, so, you know, parents, we have to use our voices. Whether that just is speaking up to our principals, I've gone to board meetings and spoken there. It sucks. It's intimidating. You have a three-minute limit and then it, your buzzer goes off and it's not even a back-and-forth conversation. So I find that process to be really kind of, I think it's necessary. I guess it's the only option, but I don't find it to be productive. Uh, so I've been emailing the board members with backup and data, um, around my request now to opt out of devices entirely. I've been told I cannot, so I'm actually having to take legal action against the school. So I think there's gonna be a lot changing around this in 2025, given some results of some of these lawsuits.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:34)

I hope, I hope that, uh, we see some success in kids and learning at the center of education rather than big tech profits. Right. Sure,

Nicki Reisberg: (23:48)

Sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:49)

Makes sense. So, yeah. So, uh, before we go to our next break, I just have to ask you real quick, because there's nobody, you're sort of uniquely qualified. I know what our answer is to this, but I'm wondering what yours would be. Okay. What do you find is the most problematic social media app?

Nicki Reisberg: (24:09)

Oh, Hilary, this is a hard one. I don't like any of them. Um, number one is probably Snapchat. Uh, number two, TikTok.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:17)

Okay. Yeah.

Nicki Reisberg: (24:18)

I'll just leave it at that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:23)

Yeah. Yeah. No, and I, I we're aligned on Snapchat being, um, number one problematic use for so many reasons.

Nicki Reisberg: (24:33)

So many, too many of you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:34)

So many, which have been covered on previous episodes of this podcast as well. So, Yeah. Yep. But I was just, I had to ask 'cause I thought, Ooh, I've, I don't know when I'm gonna get this opportunity to chat with you again.

Nicki Reisberg: (24:48)

I know, I know.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:49)

Okay. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Nicki for her healthy screen habit.

_________

Ad Break : Bark

_________

I'm speaking with Nikki Reisberg, host of the Scrolling to Death podcast, whose mission is to force change through kids online safety legislation, influencing societal shift to let kids be kids. And Nikki, on each episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask every guest for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway they can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Nicki Reisberg: (25:36)

Mine is, what I've been thinking a lot about is a tech-together approach. So it is never letting your child do tech alone. I know that can be hard to, you know, maintain through teen years, but this is especially applicable when they're young. So this means if they're playing a video game, they're playing it with you. Mm-hmm . If you're watching a movie, you're watching it together. There is no taking tech into the bathrooms or the bedrooms and doing it alone. No headphones. This is so seriously important. And I think a great lesson for them as they get into the teen years where they are more integrated with their tech. I'll share one little story. Someone I work out with, she's a mom who has three teenagers. She's been listening to my podcast and recently started taking the kids' phones away at 8:00 PM it's only been four or five days. She's noticed withdrawal symptoms but also noticed that they are talking more to each other. They're engaging, they're waking up early, making their own breakfast, they're slept, they're happier. And that's just in a few days. And so, I think the lesson there for the teen years is also tech together whenever possible, but it is no devices alone. No devices in the bedroom, bathroom, those kind of areas. It's common areas only.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:54)

Yeah. Yeah. Just in that, in that recommendation alone, you've hit two of our core five healthy screen habits. Oh, good. Which is, which is giving your phone a bedtime and no tech in bedrooms or mm-hmm . No, no connected devices, I should say in bedrooms or bathrooms. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Huge. Yeah. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Scrolling to Death by visiting the show notes for this episode. Do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Nicki, thank you so much for being here today and for working so hard to keep all the news on online harms and everything else right at the top of our feeds.

Nicki Reisberg: (27:44)

Thank you, Hillary. This was so fun.

S12 Episode 3: Chat Bots, Warning Signs, and More // Ashley Harlow PhD, MBA

Wed, 29 Jan 2025 06:00:00 GMT

"(teaching social media use) in a lot of ways, is sort of like relationship coaching"

~ Dr. Ashley Harlow

Dr. Ashley Harlow is a dad of four who definitely understands the complexities of parenting with healthy boundaries around screen time. As a licensed child and adolescent psychologist at Children's Nebraska in Omaha, he has practical tips that can empower families to create a balanced approach.

On this episode we talk about social media, chatbots and warning signs of depression to look out for.

Listen now!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For more info: Ashley at Children's Nebraska

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:03)

My guest today is a dad of four who definitely understands the complexities of parenting with healthy boundaries around screen time. As a licensed child and adolescent psychologist at Children's Nebraska in Omaha, he has practical tips that can empower families to create a balanced approach. And today we get to hear some of them. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Dr. Ashley Harlow!

Dr. Harlow: (00:37)

Thank you so much for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:39)

I'm excited to get into it as dad of 4 you’ve got lots of practice!

Dr. Harlow: (00:44)

Oh my gosh. Not much sleep, but lots of practice.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:47)

Yeah. So, Dr. Harlow, you have made pediatric and adolescent mental health, your life's work. Using this sort of broad scope of your career, are there changes that you have seen in kids or child development during your career?

Dr. Harlow: (01:14)

Absolutely. I would say that I've absolutely seen changes. I've been a practicing psychologist now for 14 years here in Nebraska. And, you know, it, it, it's a little bit of a funny question because I think about the increases in school shootings and the development and expansive use of social media as well as like a, a global pandemic plunked right down in the, in the, in the, the middle of that time. And one thing that I always find striking is thinking about how resilient kids are. And so it's easy to focus on kind of problems and increasing rates of, of, uh, mental health symptoms. But I, I also find it striking and really important to consider how, how kids have been able to survive through all the things that they have, they have been through mm-hmm . I think one, one nice thing about Children's Nebraska is they do a great job keeping data on rates of, of, uh, depressive symptoms and suicidal ideation and those kinds of things.

Dr. Harlow: (02:18)

And we're, we're definitely seeing increases in those domains that kids are, are struggling more with things like anxiety and things like depression. I, I was really excited to be a, uh, a guest on your show because I also feel like, uh, it makes me feel a little bit like an old man, but I also have a sense of kind of the way technology has taken over kids' lives. And I think about, even as I, I started at Children's in 2010, the number of kids on smart phones, the number of kids with Instagram accounts, uh, uh, TikTok has graced the world in the scope of that time. And, and thinking about the ways that, that, that kids are so engaged in that technology and their screens and these devices has really had, uh, um, a very significant .

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:07)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I could not agree with you more. I was struck by, um, the Pew Research Center in 2022 came out with kind of a list of concerns of parents. And, um, at that point, in 2022, 4 in 10 US parents said that they're extremely or very worried about their children struggling with anxiety and depression. And you pointing out the role that you have seen kind of in the field where technology plays alongside of this, I think underlines the importance of the work that you're doing, as well as the importance of collecting that data. Mm-hmm . Because it's, without it, we just become kind of a bunch of hand wringers on the side. We need those numbers, you know, as hard as they are to collect mm-hmm

Dr. Harlow: (04:01)

No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think that the, I think that the way you phrase that is really important too, that the, the, the development of the technology and development of social media is happening in tandem to these trends, and that we're still trying to figure out and kind of disentangle how they're related mm-hmm . That if how the technology is, is causing or just correlated with some of these outcomes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:26)

Right? Right. When you talk about the very young in early childhood development, there's, um, a friend of ours at the screen time action network, Jean Rogers has a saying that I, I like, and I, I wonder if you agree with it. She says, “technology changes, but child development does not.” So it's like, how, how do you feel about that statement, at least with the very young? I, I kind of feel like it holds true.

Dr. Harlow: (05:05)

I think it absolutely holds true. I mean, when I was, when I was in, in graduate school and getting, getting my training, we talked about how all behavior is determined by an interaction of genetic and environmental factors. And when we talk about child development, that we, we have all the genes we're ever gonna have and all the genetic contributors to child development are, are here. Right? Yeah. And with us. And I think that there, there, there can be some minor changes along the way, but those, those happen over thousands of years, not over the, the scope of time that, that technology is changing. So I, I think it's true that child development is here to stay, and the environment around us is changing at an incredibly rapid pace.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:51)

Right? Right. It's hard for me to pick, keep up with so mm-hmm . Which should not be a surprise, but . So, so I kind of think of adolescence as this, um, it's sort of known as this time that kids start to pull away and establish their own identities, and they're, trying on new hats and they do new things. And sometimes I feel like some of these things, um, are what we parents have been told to look out for surrounding depressive episodes. This kind of pulling away, wanting to isolate, say you, you know, how do we, I guess this is a little bit of a selfish question, but , you know, that's why you start a podcast to answer your own questions, . But how, how do we know the difference between a kid who is going through some expected developmental flexing, if you will, and one that might be depressed?

Dr. Harlow: (06:49)

I think that the most critical thing for parents to keep an eye on is the level of impairment. How much are those symptoms getting in the way of a child engaging with life and being successful? And so you're absolutely right that, that depression is a very normal human experience and very likely going through adolescence, a child is going to experience depression at, at, at various times and various stages. However, uh, the time parents should be concerned is, are these depressive feelings affecting eating habits? Is are they affecting sleeping habits? So kind of those biological processes, or are the, the symptoms or experiences of depression getting in the way of the child, having fun with friends, uh, engaging in kind of normal healthy activities? Are they not doing the things that they used to enjoy those kinds of things? And especially important, um, is, uh, is the child having, uh, serious thoughts about not living anymore?

Dr. Harlow: (07:55)

Is the, the burden of that, that kind of depressive experience so great that they're thinking about, like, they don't want their life anymore. And this, I do have to differentiate it from kids will say all the time, like, I don't wanna live anymore. I can't take it anymore. That, that kind of thing. And kind of being able to tell the difference between an expression and is this, is this something a child is, is really considering, is a, is a, is a question parents should ask, but also they can take that opportunity to have conversations with professionals in their life. Mm-hmm . Uh, a lot of the work that I do is in primary care pediatrics. And so I work really closely with, uh, children's physicians who have known the child their whole life and have done a really wonderful job developing relationships with kids and families and families.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:04)

Okay. So let's talk more about relationships. And I wanna get into some chatbot type stuff after this break.

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I'm speaking with Dr. Ashley Harlow from Children's Nebraska in Omaha. So I have never been to your fine state. I picture very cold winters because I, you know, 'cause I read Laura Ingles Wilder and I know about the Midwest , but, but, uh, very beautiful other seasons. What sort of recreation is big in Nebraska?

Dr. Harlow: (09:59)

You know, I have the benefit of living in Omaha, which is a city of about half a million. Oh, okay. And so we have a fabulous zoo and we have a fabulous children's museum. And the College World Series comes here in the summertime. Uh, there's lot. And of course, uh, college football is very big. We love our Huskers here. And so there's, there's much more to do than folks attribute to a flyover state,

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:34)

And so it is talking more about recreation, sort of another thing that our kids are up against is this, this concept that I've been described to by young adults in my life and teens is this sort of social wasteland that comes for kids who have grown up in low tech families, or those who are not interested in spending a whole lot of time online. And there's this disconnection even amongst kids and teens who are trying to find someone to connect to. So this can kind of funnel people even who are not intending to be there. It funnels them into spending time on social media or a lot of online gaming. Do you have any tips on how to balance this, both from the parent's perspective as well as for someone who is, you know, struggling to find their own way?

Dr. Harlow: (11:36)

You know, it's really interesting that you bring this up because I spend, uh, a chunk of my clinical time, uh, working in a local high school, and I see exactly what you're talking about. Like families who have worked really hard to limit screen time access, uh, smartphone, social media, those kinds of things, you're absolutely right because it, it, it creates a situation where almost everyone else is, is doing kind of the social media thing. And it, and, and kids are, are, are struggling to connect. And I would have probably a couple of suggestions both for, for, for parents and for kids, uh, on the parent side of things. I think it's really important to fill those voids with keeping your child involved in a range of activities. And I think that that, I mean, I think this, this is an idea that is much easier discussed than implemented, but making sure that there's balance in the child's life mm-hmm .

Dr. Harlow: (12:39)

And so balance in terms of sports activities, if they're physically inclined or dance or those, those kinds of kinds of things. But also, are they involved in youth groups and religious or spiritual organizations? Are they finding other ways to, to engage, uh, what is it IRL in, in, in real life? mm-hmm . With, with people to kind of buttress the, the social opportunities that aren't happening on social media at the same time, uh, it's, it's, I surprise myself as I'm saying this, but I think that there are also opportunities for parents to kind of coach kids in how to use social media in positive ways to build community around that. Uh, I think that there, there are a number of kids that I, I've worked with who are really socially anxious and aren't engaged on social media and we’ll actually bring, uh, different kinds of social media into session and kind of walk through the, the, the ways to use Instagram to connect, or the ways to use Discord to connect in positive ways. And it's, it's in, in a lot of ways, it, it is sort of like relationship coaching that would happen with building friendships in real life or building relationships in real life, but how to use, use social media in positive ways, and also how to avoid some of the, the, the pitfalls that can happen when they use social media.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:10)

Mm. Mm-hmm, we have a presentation that is a four part, stepping into social media type type thing that we take parents through. And it sounds sounds very similar to what you're talking about as far as how to, um, introduce social media so that it's not this kind of classic case of forbidden fruit, you know? Mm-hmm . So, but to use it is a tool and not, uh, the, you know, the toy aspect or the, um, I don't know, a replacement, for connection.

Dr. Harlow: (14:51)

Absolutely. Right. And I think that it, I mean, and it's hard because those kids who haven't had social media, it's almost like there's an, there's a huge sort of “secret world” that they're not a part of. Right. And it can't, it can be really isolated. Yeah. And it, at least in terms of the ways that the pendulum has swung, it is such an, an integral part of, uh, high school experiences Yeah. That so much is happening on social media that they are not a part of, and that it's obviously, it's not all good and it's not all bad, but it really does, does leave kids feeling disconnected. Mm-hmm .

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:26)

Mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah. So, and what we know about that disconnected feeling and that, you know, that the continual want to be online was that it was manufactured, right? Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yes. It was very much developed and designed by sort of hacking the human brain and manipulating dopamine output. And, uh, so much so that app developers created something that they call the attention economy, meaning the longer they can keep your attention, the more money they will make. So yes, those of us in digital wellness used to advise parents to help insulate their kids from this sort of dopamine hack by one, teaching them about neurotransmitters, about dopamine, et cetera. But, um, also kind of like really leaning in to those other feel-good neurotransmitters, like oxytocin by, you know, cuddling, giving hugs, endorphins through exercise. Um, but recently there's kind of been this new kid on the block, it's all over the news.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:36)

I am referring specifically to Character AI and the technology of chatbots. And I am very concerned about kids and teens forming these online relationships with chatbots. And they have online, you know, they have chatbot therapists and there's, there's a lot of free platforms that are dispensing advice through chatbots. And most recently, we even learned on the news about a 14-year-old boy in Florida who unalived himself when he was encouraged by a chatbot to join her. And I have a couple of questions. One, are you familiar with Character AI? Like, is this something that has entered your realm already?

Dr. Harlow: (17:26)

It has not. And so I, I am familiar only with it through the, the reading that I have done. I, it has not come up in sessions and parents haven't asked about it yet. But after, uh, the research that I've done, I am similarly concerned, I would say.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:44)

Okay. Okay. Well, I thank you for validating my concern, because my concern is that they've gone after the attention economy, and now they're going after something that I'm referring to as like the connection economy mm-hmm . Where people are so lonely, they are looking for connection, and they are finding it, you know, in this mirror of, of algorithmic chatbot . So do you have any recommendations, I'm looking to learn along with everyone else, do you have any recommendations about what we can do to insulate our kids from looking for connection from a robot ?

Dr. Harlow: (18:31)

You know, I, I think that this is a really, it's a complicated domain and a complicated question mm-hmm . Because I feel like also coming from a state like Nebraska, I can certainly recognize that there are a lot of lonely, vulnerable, isolated kids in our kind of rural state who are looking for connection mm-hmm . And I think that that connection has been kind of sort of possible over social media and some kinds of ways to connect with larger communities. And so if, if they're in a place where they don't have the, the human resources around them to form that connection, I can see where this character AI could step in and provide some very sort of basic engagement and opportunities for connection and communication and those sorts of things. Mm-hmm . And so I don't, I don't necessarily want to throw the baby out with the bath water and say like, it doesn't have any place and it's all risk mm-hmm .

Dr. Harlow: (19:34)

Because I think that there are potential benefits in the development of this technology. I'm worried that this development is happening with kids mm-hmm . Who might be in a more vulnerable and less developed place than an adult to be able to, to put the brakes on and say, wait a minute, you're, you're not real. I can't end my life and meet you somewhere. Right. Like this, going back to the story that you told. And so I think that that, that the, the approach parents can take to this is likely very similar to the approach with social media, that there's a lot of education and there's a lot of focus on differentiating what is a, uh, in real life relationship and experience and what is an online experience.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:57)

Yeah. But, okay, so true confession. I went into Character AI and logged myself as a 15-year-old girl Okay. As a little social experiment. And very quickly was, um, and by very quickly, I'm talking about like within four interactions, it took a highly sexualized turn, you know? So there, there was something that I thought was going to be like career oriented. The, the verbiage describing this particular character was career-oriented. It was very, definitely 50 Shades of Gray adjacent. Okay. I also went into another one that, um, was kind of, uh, like a, “my AI assistant” kind of a thing. Mm-hmm . And it almost started arguing with me. So when I was, when I was telling it I thought you were gonna be a, I thought you were gonna be a guy. And it was like, “Why do you think that?”

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:06)

And I was like, because you were created by, and it had the app developer, it had the, uh, the character developer's name, you know, and it was a, a male name. And they were like, this is true. I am Devi. You know, and I said, I said, I would've thought that it was a guy's voice. And he, and this person was like, not per, see, even me, I mean, I'm like a 53-year-old gr you know, to use, to use the colloquialism grown ass woman. ,

Dr. Harlow: (22:38)

laughter

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:38)

Mean, I mean mom of two young adults, you know, and I'm even referring to the chatbot as this person, you know, and it's not, it's not a person. I mean, it was an AI robot, I recognize that, but started arguing with me about how my human ears could not differentiate the sounds and tones that they knew to be true. And they most definitely sounded like a human male. And I'm here to tell you, it was a lady's voice. So it, it is, I, I can see how I can see where the confusion comes, is what I'm saying for, for kids. And I'm very concerned.

Dr. Harlow: (23:21)

Well, and it seems like the experience you're describing is identifying just another layer of risk that this is such new technology mm-hmm . That the, the, the AI is learning and it's moving the, I mean, especially in terms of like the sexualized elements, like moving the relationship very quickly to either what it thinks the user wants or what it thinks is intimacy in a human relationship. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, it's clumsy and inaccurate, and it also seems like wildly inappropriate, like that you stumbled into a chat room full of bot predators.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:00)

Yeah, no, and like I said, I, I intentionally created an underage account. I intentionally limited my responses to between five and six words to just like, you know, to be very kind of teen-ish and not provide a lot of information to see where this would go. Sure. And the response that it would fire back at me was a paragraph or two with very explicit, um, you know, uh, they, it's almost like you're getting inserted into a book. I found it to be very unsettling, and I understand how, uh, anyone who is feeling lonely would feel as though there was cre a connection with this bot on the other side.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:09)

I think your advice of, I, I guess just continuing to talk to our kids about it. I have found that the phrase in real life can be a little dismissive to mm-hmm. Our young adults and teens because their online life and their offline life have have merged, and they're the same. And when, when I talk to parents when, when I'm doing parent education, uh, I'll say, you know, in recognition of this, recognize that relationships are currency to teens, I mean, that's, that's a very, it's, it's kind of appropriate. They're, they're in that phase of their life where they are, they're figuring out how relationships work. They are, they're a very important part. So they're equivalent of like, say, currency for us, us, us being adults, you know, and if we are to make that analogy, I encourage you right now to check your online banking accounts. And if you were to find that those had been zeroed out in the past two and a half hours, you would have a very real offline reaction to an online occurrence. I talk to parents about using the terms online and offline rather than in real life, because it feels the, it feels like that “real life” term is starting to kind of drive a wedge into that generational separation.

Dr. Harlow: (26:55)

I really appreciate that feedback and I couldn't agree with more. And so I think I had been using it in therapy, but kind of came to the same realization that you're describing that it has a really kind of dismissive or invalidating element to it.

Dr. Harlow: (28:26)

One thing I wanna return to as well, and what you were saying as far as guidelines for parents around the character ai mm-hmm . I think that kind of the, the, the structure of the approach that I would, I would likely talk to parents about would be very similar to, to, to what I talk with them about in terms of social media, in terms of how you kind of, uh, sort of educate kids to, so that they understand that they're interacting with a software package and, and not interacting with, with, with another human being. And, and the other, the other thing I wonder about too is how you model and how you engage as an adult with these, these kinds of chatbots and really sitting down and, and showing kids that in some ways, at least in my read of this, this, it felt a little bit similar to kind of an entertaining experience, rather than having an expectation that this is sort of a, a, a, an authentic human connection. And so thinking about it that way can also be helpful that, that, like the experience that you're having with the chat bot is maybe similar to how you might engage with a movie. Like you can have an emotional experience with a movie. Right. And the characters that are being depicted on the screen mm-hmm . And like that, that is a real emotional experience. And it, it's, it's not, it's not an authentic human interaction that you're having with an, with a, with a person sitting next to you Yeah. Or a person on the phone.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:00)

Yeah. Yeah. I, I really like that a lot. Yeah.

Dr. Harlow: (30:04)

Because that can create a certain degree of, of, of separation and put this, put this experience in a category mm-hmm . That the child doesn't believe. Like this is a thing that, uh, that like, it doesn't necessarily generalize, I guess is what I'm trying to say. That you can have an experience with the chatbot, and that experience with the chatbot is not going to be the same as an interaction you have with a, with a student in the, in the, that sitting next to you in a classroom or in the lunchroom or on the, the soccer field.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:33)

Uhhuh, , Uhhuh, . Yeah. I like that. I like that kind of trying to, uh, categorically organize it into a different section of, you know, like, like you said, validating that the emotions you feel when you're watching a movie are very much emotions that you feel, you know mm-hmm . So, but putting it more in that category. I like that a lot. Thank you. So, uh, we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Harlow for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (32:36)

I'm speaking with Dr. Ashley Harlow from Children's Nebraska, and now on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast, I ask my guest for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have any for us today?

Dr. Harlow: (33:10)

Absolutely. In fact, I am gonna cheat a little bit and maybe give two if I could, because I like to have a hard and fast tip, and then kind of a more, uh, you know, sort of flexible or kind of think space sort of tip. And so in terms of like the, the, the hard and fast, uh, healthy screen tip is to start early and to, to build a smartphone pact with your kid's friend's parents mm-hmm . That you start talking about technology use and social media use and come together around when that is going to start for your kids. Because if it is a loose confederation of parents and everybody has a different policy and kids are starting to get phones at seven years old or 10 years old, you don't want your child stuck out as the only one who doesn't have it. And there's gonna be pressure to, to conform to what's going on in your child's social circle, rather than what's driven by your values and your desire to keep your child safe. And so building those relationships with other parents and having conversations early and kind of, uh, uh, making sure that those, those, uh, conversations are informed by your values is really, really important.

Dr. Harlow: (34:23)

So that's the hard and fast

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:25)

Yeah. Sort of building your tribe.

Dr. Harlow: (34:28)

Exactly. Right. And then, uh, the other kind of healthy screen habit I would have is to, to keep in the back of your mind that no family is perfect. Kids will use screens too much sometimes, and other times you might be too restrictive. And the real goal is balance and be ready to forgive yourself and forgive your kids when they sneak, uh, their devices behind your back. But, but having a lot of, uh, kind of forgiveness and grace in this process, uh, will be good for everyone involved.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:00)

I could not agree more. And recognizing that these things were never designed to be put down. I mean, it's when you, when you start learning kind of the, you know, the science behind it, you understand, become a lot more, at least for myself, I know, I became a lot more compassionate with understanding why it was so compelling for my kids to be on their devices or anything else. So, and, and starting conversations with that as well.

Dr. Harlow: (35:31)

Yes, I think that we're all figuring this out as we go, and we're, and we're all in it together. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:37)

Yeah. Great. Thank you so much. You can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to Children's Nebraska by visiting the show notes of this episode. You do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Dr. Harlow, thank you so much for being here today and for working so hard. Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Yeah. Thank you. And I just thank you for working so hard to keep families connected offline.

Dr. Harlow: (36:10)

Well, thank you so much for your time today. This was a, a, a pleasure to get to talk through it.

S12 Episode 2: Death By Fentanyl Bought On SnapChat // Amy Neville

Wed, 22 Jan 2025 08:00:00 GMT

"Snap is …. a hub for these drug dealers"

~ Amy Neville

Since losing her son Alexander, Amy Neville has dedicated her life to educating and spreading awareness of the dangers that killed him. If you are familiar with her work, you know that she cannot say enough about the pain of losing her baby, but she points out that this is bigger than one fourteen-year-old. So many more adolescents and people of all ages are having their lives cut short through no fault of their own.

The mission of the Alexander Neville Foundation is to educate youth and communities on teen mental health and the dangers of fentanyl and social media. This episode is packed with resources and tools to help families.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Alexander Neville Foundation: website

DEA Drug Emoji Translator: pdf

Documentaries:
Dead On Arrival: youtube
Come Back Home: youtube

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Time and time again when I ask digital wellness experts and in school administrators for the most problematic social media platform. The answer is the same. It's always Snapchat. Snapchat is one of the most widely used social media platforms in the world, with billions of snaps generated every day. It's the communication style of choice for many teens. And this is due to its design that automatically deletes pictures, videos, and communications after a short amount of time. So, originally, this feature was utilized in the adult industry, but very quickly became a huge hit with younger social media users. Evan Spiegel, one of the creators and CEO of Snapchat, claimed in 2013 that Snapchat changed the perception that deleting something was bad.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:16)

He said, “Online you typically delete something if it's bad or embarrassing.” But Snapchat removed this pressure and this disappearing feature is also what has made Snapchat the platform of choice for drug dealers. The ability to sell drugs anonymously, get paid online, and set up drop offs or deliveries has exploded an illegal market for dealing. This compounded with counterfeit pharmaceuticals, laced with fentanyl, has created a deadly wave of drug related deaths. And today I'm speaking with the lady who's taught me all of this, who learned this in the worst way imaginable. She found this all out when trying to understand the death of her beautiful and talented son: Alexander. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, my friend Amy Neville.

Amy Neville: (02:25)

Hi, Hillary. Thank you for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:27)

Amy, thank you so much for being here today. I have learned so much from you, your tireless work in anti-drug education and the dangers of Snapchat and working with Parents SOS, which is a community of bereaved parents who have lost their children to online harms arms. And before we get into it, we kind of did a little check-in, but I just wanted to make sure you're having an okay day.

Amy Neville: (02:58)

I'm having an okay day . That's about the best we can expect.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:02)

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And Amy, are you up for, I feel like, I feel like I've grown to know Alexander through your story and through your time, but I've, I mean, just an outstanding guy. Mm-hmm . Outstanding kid. Can you, are you up for sharing about him today?

Amy Neville: (03:22)

Sure. I love talking about him, you know, and it, it, it, it's hard, but it's weird to say that because that's really hard, right? Mm-hmm . Because it's, it's gonna be emotional, but at the same time, it keeps me connected to him and mm-hmm . Because all I want is my kid, you know? Um, so Alex was a pretty typical 14-year-old. He was an anxious teenager, if you will. He was looking forward to high school. He kept asking me, “Mom, do you think I'm gonna like high school?” And I was like, oh, yeah. And I would talk about why he would, we would talk about why he might like it and what the challenges might look like. And, and, but he was up for it. He was really actually looking forward to it, uh, as a 14-year-old. And, you know, he was a leader among his friends. You know, they'd play video games together, and he was always leading the squad or the team or whatever it was.

Amy Neville: (04:07)

Uh, he, he was a kiddo with big ideas. Like he, early on, uh, loved history, loved Egyptology, had fancied himself as maybe one day being a director of a Smithsonian. He would, he would thought a lot about things and thought deeply about things. And then when he was really passionate about something, he would take that, like the Egyptology or World War ii, or a video game, or Pokemon cards, whatever it was, he would learn and learn and learn. And then he would share that with people. Like, he would get people on board with his thoughts and ideas about these things. He was very persuasive. Uh, and I think it was just that, that passion that he had, uh, when he would communicate about these things and he'd bring people into his circle on, on, on fun and interesting things, you know, a lot of what we did as a family revolved around Alexander's interests, whether it be going to Comic-Con or a Lego convention.

Amy Neville: (05:01)

Uh, world War Brick was an Anaheim a couple years, and we went each year because, you know, that was Alexander's thing. He wanted to be a part of that. And we'd spend the entire weekend there for his sake, you know, uh, dressing up like assassins from Assassin's Creed and going to Comic-Con, that was really fun. We did that one year. Uh, his birthday parties would be like a Civil War reenactments.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:39)

Yeah. Yeah. I love that you kind of talk about all of the things that you guys have done as a family, because in seeing some of the footage that you've been so generous to share with, like family videos and stuff like that. I look at your family and the thing that I find, the thing that like, you know, drives the icicle through into my heart, is that I look at your family and I go, oh, that's, I, I know that family. That's mine. You know? Mm-hmm . I mean, you guys, you were heavily involved in activities. Mm-hmm . You're a heavily involved mom. Alexander did also, I'm only saying this, just, um, you know, as to add more information in. Sure. But you're very open with the fact that Alexander also had ADHD.

Amy Neville: (06:28)

Yep, he had just been, uh, the, the fall before he had been diagnosed with, um, a DD. And, uh, we didn't realize it because we had this narrow vision of what a DD is. Kids are hyperactive, they can't focus. And so that's the perception that we had of ADD. Uh, and through elementary school, he had amazing teachers who gave him space to walk around the classroom to fidget to express his ideas and things that might be going on. So it was, it was easy to not detect, if you will. Sure. Uh, but we learned that there's several different types of ADD and Alexander had this like, uh, version where he would obsess about things and think really hard about things, and feel things really intensely. And so we were just starting to learn how to work with that and work with him. And we were working on, uh, least invasive to most invasive treatment.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:24)

Sure, sure. Um, are you comfortable talking about the events that kind of led up to the night that Alexander was killed? Yeah. By Fentanyl? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Amy Neville: (07:34)

Yeah, we can talk about that. I think it's important because we, um, it was the summer of 2020 between eighth grade and what would've been his high school year. Uh, he had just celebrated his birthday that summer, and he was, we had kind of fallen into a routine where he was, uh, selling off toys on eBay from when he was little, which was really hard and sad for me as a mom. But he was good at it, very organized, uh, communicated with his customers. He just really had a knack for, he prepackaged all these packages so they'd be ready to go when somebody bought something. And so we were, he, we were kind of this routine of every day where he was delivering packages, skateboarding, playing video games. Uh, he'd go out and ride his bike. Uh, he would get online with friends. Uh, and we were having dinner together every night at that time.

Amy Neville: (08:22)

And that was at Alexander's request. Uh, he helped me grocery shop. He helped me pick out like what we should be eating. Like he was really involved, uh, with the family almost more so than he had been in recent months. Mm. And, and he was into it. He liked it. But, uh, along came a point where he asked me if he could bring his TV up to his bedroom. 'cause we had a rule, if you're gonna play video games, it's always in the common area, so you're not isolating off in your bedroom. And, um, no matter how raucous he got, we, we let it happen because I wanted him to stay in the family space Sure. In community space, if you will. Uh, uh, so he is like, he gave me, he gave me some really good arguments as to why he should be allowed to have his, his, um, TV up in his room.

Amy Neville: (09:06)

And I, I agreed to it, but the door had to stay open. And when I called him, he had to respond. Like it was, you know, if I came to get him for dinner, there had to be a quick turnaround in these things, or the TV would come back downstairs. And so we were doing okay with that. And he wasn't playing video games for too long a period of time. It'd be in the afternoon a little bit. And then sometimes he and his sister and dad would play at night. Uh, and then, uh, he broke his TV and I was very adamant that, well, we're not just gonna run out and buy you a new one. You're, you know, you're gonna have to replace his TV on your own. He was making money on eBay. Like, let we, I'll take you shopping. We can get a new TV, but you broke it 'cause you were careless. So there's consequences for that. And he didn't wanna buy a TV right away, so now he's not playing the games. He's becoming a little more disconnected from us at that point. Uh, and he started spending more time online on, on Snapchat. And that's when things started to get a little weird. And, um, so for a few days went by and things were just really off with him. Big mood swings, which were kind of in-line with his personality because he had a very big personality to begin with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:16)

And he was 14

Amy Neville: (10:17)

And he was 14. Exactly. I mean, the height of puberty, like, it wasn't really outta line, but just your mom instincts. I'm like, okay, something's off. And so I asked him like, “okay, dude, like, what is up? Are you using something?” And he was like, “No, mom. I was up late. I ate something bad.” And again, puberty. So I just didn't give it much thought that night. I, I believed him. Um, but I wanted to take, so wanted to take him to the doctor. I wanted to find a new therapist. 'cause his therapist was on a medical leave at that point. And it was a day a half later, he came back to me. He said, okay, I have to talk to you guys. He sat us down at the kitchen table and proceeded to pour his heart out to us. This on a Sunday evening. And he told us, you know, uh, told us a lot. But the three key things that came outta that conversation were, I wanted to experiment with Oxy. I got it from a dealer on Snapchat. It has a hold on me I don't know why. Excuse

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:04)

Me. No, no, you're fine. We can take as long as you need.

Amy Neville: (11:11)

Thank you. Yeah. So of course I did what any parent would do. You know, I spring into action that next day. I called the treatment place. We thought we were gonna get 'em in by Wednesday. You know, they told me they needed to call me back with their recommendation. So, okay, we're gonna wait for that call. I took Alex to get his hair cut. He and his dad went out to lunch. He went and bought a bunch of candy. He went and hung out with friends, delivered the eBay packages, skateboard video games, like all the usual things. And he came home around nine o'clock that night and we said goodnight. That was the last time I saw him. The lights went up to his room. You know, that morning when I woke up, I remember thinking, wow, it was so weird I didn't hear Alex in the night. He must have really been sleeping hard. Cause usually he was a night owl. I always heard him up in the middle of the night making food, whatever he was doing in the kitchen mm-hmm . Um, and so I let him sleep. And I, I, I, um, went to go wake him up for orthodontist's appointment. And that's when we realized he was gone.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:12)

Yeah. Yeah. And he was gone. Just so everybody's completely clear. He was, he was gone. Yep. He was, because he had taken,

Amy Neville: (12:20)

He, um, had taken a pill that night. Sometime after nine o'clock, he took the pill that took his life. Um, that was not his intention, you know, he, he wanted help. This kid was scared. Um, and, and we didn't know what we were dealing with. Uh, no one was talking about fentanyl at that time, the illicit fentanyl. And no one was talking about the depths of social media harms. You know, we, we spot checked social media. We had internet go off at our house. Like we thought we had guardrails in place to keep our kids safe in these spaces. And, and we were not operating with all the information. And that's by design. These companies don't want us operating with all the information. They're like look out for sexual predators, look out for bullies. And we did those things. Yeah. And yet here we are, you know? Yeah. Had I, had, I seen drug con, no one was talking about the drug emoji code that exists at the time. And so, had I seen it, I wouldn't have known what I was looking at.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:10)

Right. Right. And you, since Alexander's death has have absolutely committed yourself to the education of others so that nobody has to live through this like you, like you are. And when we come back, I wanna talk about some ways to recognize drug dealer communications, like you just talked about, as well as to kind of how to start the conversation about fentanyl with your family.

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Ad Break - 988

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Hillary Wilkinson: (15:22)

I'm speaking with Amy Neville, founder of the Alexander Neville Foundation, and Mom of two: Eden, her teenage daughter, and Alexander, who is forever 14 after losing his life to an accidental fentanyl overdose. So, how is this happening? How are drugs being trafficked on Snapchat? Amy like, I mean, just, I, I, I feel like I am, I hate to use your pain as the path, but I just, I feel like we have so much to learn, and I know that that is your commitment and your dedication to Alexander. So how is it happening?

Amy Neville: (16:08)

So, in a variety of ways. So when I first started this work, I was naive and I thought kids wanna, kids that want to experiment are gonna go out and find a drug dealer, you know, happens in dark, scary places. Um, but after meeting with teens, I quickly realized, okay, wait, no, this is like way more commonplace and way more of a marketplace on Snapchat and other social media, uh, than I, than I realized, right? Like, when, when Alex told us he got it on Snapchat, it didn't occur to me that this was a problem. I, I immediately thought it was a one-off thing that happened in our family. And so, um, I started talking to experts, and then of course, the teens are where, where the information's really at. They've been incredible. And so I learned, yes, there are teens who might be curious and they're gonna maybe seek somebody out.

Amy Neville: (16:57)

There are teens who are groomed. It's this drug dealer becomes friends with them on Snapchat or wherever the other social, whatever, social media. And over the course of time, they groom them. And 45, 60 days later, our kids are doing things we'd never thought they'd do before and things they never intended on doing. Um, there's another way of, Hey, I'm the kid puts it out on social media. I'm feeling really sad today. For whatever reason, drug dealer has a solution to that slides into their dms and says, “Hey, you're sad. I've got something to help you out.” And they act empathetic, like they care, right? And our kids are in these low decision making moments. And then another trend is that a kid puts it out so excited. My parents said, I can save for my first car Dealer slides into the dms. “Hey, I got a job for you you can earn some quick cash.”

Amy Neville: (17:40)

Oh. And now next thing you know, these kids are doing selling drugs to their friends because they are wrapped, they got wrapped up in this somehow. Um, so that's, I mean, that's a few ways. I recently spoke to kids in juvenile detention, asking them what they were seeing and what they're doing. I mean, these are kids who are drug dealers. These are kids who have killed people. It's a whole thing. And, and, uh, they were tell telling me kind of like the, the latest way it's happening, and that is Snap is more of a hub for these drug dealers 'cause Snap is starting to remove drug content, right? They're starting to do things that make them look good in the public eye. Is it, is it foolproof? And a hundred percent absolutely not. Let's be really clear, it's a bandaid solution. I'm, I'm quite, I feel quite strong about that, but, so these kiddos are telling me, Nope, snap to the hub. I meet them on Instagram, and then we go finish the transactions on Snapchat because those messages are gonna disappear. Mm. So it's still in there. It's still part of the problem. And, until these companies say they'll do the right, will actually do the right thing, rather than saying that they're doing the right things. Uh, we're this is, this is what our teens are up against.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:53)

Right, right. And you had mentioned, just so in the event that we have parents that are like, Hmm, I need to go and look through. Yeah. My kids' dms and stuff like that, what you had mentioned earlier, like the emojis that are used as code mm-hmm . And I'd like to ask for two things. One, can you give a couple examples? And two, where can parents look for that for like an emoji, uh, translator? Sure, sure. Or like a legend, if you will. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Amy Neville: (19:27)

The legend. Uh, it's a funny way to think of it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:30)

Well, like a map

Amy Neville: (19:32)

Way, you're absolute Right. Right. I hadn't, I just hadn't thought of it. That's, that's a really distinct way to look at it. Um, who uses maps anymore? Hillary, come on. Right. . Um, so one of the easiest ones, especially when it comes to the pills, there is a blue circle with an M on it that symbolizes that blue M 30 pill. That's a very common one. Sometimes they'll use different leaves and things for marijuana. Um, the magic eight ball is on there, so you can, you know, cocaine. So there's a lot of different ways. But you can look up DEA drug emoji code, and A PDF will pop right up on Google for you that you can take a look at.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:08)

Okay. And I will put a link to that. Okay. Great. Code in our show notes. So definitely, and I'll tell you how to get to that at the end of this episode. So I feel like even as we're talking about fentanyl, people are not realizing like how fentanyl, why fentanyl is an issue. They're not realizing like the magnitude of the problem with counterfeit pharmaceuticals. Mm-hmm . And can you share some of the numbers on statistics of drug use, fentanyl deaths mm-hmm . Things like that. So

Amy Neville: (20:45)

Just to give us some perspective on drug related deaths in the, uh, 20 year period from, uh, 2020 to 2019, as the US had around 400,000 drug related deaths in just the last four years alone, we'll reach that number. That is the power of fentanyl. It is incredibly deadly and incredibly potent. And when these pills are made, or these powders are made, or it's laced into cocaine or heroin or methamphetamines, whatever else, it's in the no one's using, you know, science to measure it out. They're taking the drug or the, the, uh, in the case of the pill, that's just a binding agent throwing in the fentanyl powder, blending it up literally in a blender, like think magic bullet, throwing it through a pill press. So there's not an even distribution in there. So we always, you know, give the example of, think of chocolate chip cookies, right? We've all either eaten chocolate chip cookies or made chocolate chip cookies. And those chocolate chips are not dispersed in that batter evenly. Right? So that fentanyl is that chocolate chip cookie. It's not dispersed evenly. Some will be totally loaded, some might not have any at all. So it is, um, it's, it's really dangerous. I mean, people and the, and the, go

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:56)

Ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, and the amount of fentanyl needed to be fatal is, it's like smaller than a grain of rice.

Amy Neville: (22:03)

Yeah. It's like, what can fit on? The very tip of a pencil is how much it takes to kill somebody. And these kids, you know, Alex was maybe 110 pounds, skinny. Um, you know, his body's gonna metabolize a different than a 250 pound man. You know. And so there's varying factors in there. And these, our kids have, uh, especially, you know, these kids in these beginning stages, experimental phases, whatever we wanna call it, uh, they, they don't have that experience of use, right? Mm-hmm . Um, 'cause the, the tolerance of fentanyl builds really quickly. So you need more sooner, and you will, uh, uh, your body will need more and more and more, uh, to the point I, I met a lady who was taking 77 pills a day, but she had, oh gosh, she was already addicted to heroin when fentanyl finally entered her system.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:46)

So you, earlier this year were featured in a feature length article in Rolling Stone. You've created two documentaries. You do countless hours of coalition work for anti-drug education. I'll link those two documentaries in the show notes, um, in the hopes that people will watch them. Because I, I learned so much and I sat with my kids and had them watch them. And when I do it, when I ask my kids to watch them, I really, I ask them also, do you think this is good content? Because it's very, it's, it's good to hear their feedback on it mm-hmm . But it also, um, creates an opportunity for us to have very good conversation around it. So I recommend parents, you know, ask the same, say, “Hey, you know, I, I wanted to watch this. Can you watch it with me? Watch and tell me if, if you're learning anything new, you know?” mm-hmm . So just a little parenting tip.

Amy Neville: (24:46)

Yeah, I like that. I will tell you real quick, one of the best compliments I ever got was with the second film. I just started showing it in the first school district. I was in this last winter, and this kid up to me afterwards, and he says to me, you know, we've had drug prevention education before, but this was real. And like, the weight of that kid's words, man, he has no idea what that meant to me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:08)

No, no. Yeah. Okay. And so I don't wanna, I don't wanna tell your story, but I will say that the first documentary that you did : Dead on Arrival. Dead on Arrival I think is very hard hitting for parents. Mm-hmm . Because it's more of a parent perspective. Mm-hmm . But the second documentary had a much more, um, resounding impact on my children because it is told from the sibling perspective mm-hmm . And your daughter Eden's story is in that as well. And it is, it's incredibly powerful. And can you, what's the name of the second documentary?

Amy Neville: (25:57)

Come Back Home.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:58)

Come Back Home. So, yeah, and like I said, I will link both of those in the show notes as well. This is an episode that's packed with resources . So . So, um, you also, um, among other things are involved with a group of parents that's suing Snapchat. Yeah. And these are all parents who children have lost their lives. And I know this lawsuit is ongoing. Mm-hmm . Are you at liberty to talk about it at all? Yeah,

Amy Neville: (26:27)

I can talk about it a little bit. Okay. So it was filed a year ago. We had our first hearing a little over a year ago. And the judge did say that we could move into discovery, which was a huge, huge deal. It's the first one of its kind, you know, these fentanyl cases through social media that is being allowed to move into discovery. And so, you know, we're in the process. Our, we've had a couple of hearings since, and we're in the process of making all those things happen. They're gonna, uh, look at different cases. That might be the example cases. They're called bellwether cases. Uh, but Snap has since filed their appeal. Um, and in the meantime they filed amicus briefs from groups that are funded by big tech. Amicus briefs are these legal documents that get submitted to the court to say why this lawsuit is bad.

Amy Neville: (27:12)

Mm-hmm . And they're supposed to be bipartisan as if they don't, you know, have a stake in the game. But the reality is, the majority of these people that have filed the Amicus briefs are influenced by Big tech because they take big tech money. So, yeah. You know, we're so, we're in the waiting game. We're, we're waiting for this to happen. So it was, it's been very interesting. Uh, the judge in our case, judge rif has been very careful and his discussions in the courtroom and, and making sure that he is doing what is right. So I'm really grateful to him. But we're really just in the waiting game still on Okay. On whether or not, um, snap's going to be allowed that appeal.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:52)

Okay. So, like I said, I, I talk to, I talk to a lot of parents who have lost children due to Snapchat. Mm-hmm . And my biggest advice that when I go out and give presentations is don't allow your kids to download this app. Mm-hmm . And I just, I, I implore you to the listeners, implore you to recognize that the fun filters, like the doggy ears and the rainbow tongue and all of this stuff, it's the same tactics that were used by big tobacco to lure a younger user base by flavoring vape cartridges, like to taste like cotton candy and naming them cute names like Sesame's Treat or bubblegum or something like that. It's, they, they start in a very playful manner and it turns dark quickly. Mm-hmm . And by quickly, like you said, 45 to 60 days, you've got kids who are ending up doing things that they never would've found themselves doing. Yep. So it's, it's the same, it's the same dark tactics that are used mm-hmm

Amy Neville: (29:02)

. It is. I mean, they, they, you know, everybody thinks it's a free app, that it's this free product that we put on our phone. But as soon as our kids, we, 'cause some of us adults use these things too, and our kids engage with these apps, we become the product. Yes. We're the data that's bought and sold all day, every day on these apps. I mean, snap has the snap streak, which is designed to get you to show up every single day. And when I talk to teens and I do these listening sessions with teens, I often hear like, well, it's fun at first, but then I get a little anxiety over it. Like, I get the notification, oh, my Snapchat's gonna end, and they've got this compulsion that they have to go do this. And that compulsion is what addiction feels like. Sure. And so it's driving

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:38)

That. 'cause it uses, yeah. It uses the same pathways in the brain. Mm-hmm . It's all dopamine fed. It's the pleasure pathway, pleasure, pain. It's, uh, it's the same pathways mm-hmm . That get used. So Yeah.

Amy Neville: (29:49)

And, and kids don't wanna lose their snaps streak, but Snap has since fixed that problem in that now you can pay 99 cents to get your snaps streak back. Which, you know, is that really, that is all to drive the bottom line that is all about money.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:03)

No, it's all to drive the bottom line. And Snap has also done, I, I don't wanna turn this into a talk about AI and bots, because that's another episode, but the whole ai, my AI friend feature mm-hmm . Where you cannot remove from the app mm-hmm unless you pay to have it removed. Yeah. It's, no, it is, it is, uh, it is paying for your freedom for things. Mm-hmm . Which in essence is not freedom at all.

Amy Neville: (30:34)

Not at all. Not at all. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's amazing what they can get away with right now because there's no regulation. And as hard as we're trying for regulation and legislation to keep kids safe, you know, they've got billions and billions of dollars. They, they out money us, uh, in a very big way. And unfortunately that's, that's winning out right now. Mm-hmm . Uh, and, and so it's really scary. It's real. The future is very, very scary on these platforms without any regulation. I mean, we needed regulation for cars, right. We needed it for big tobacco. Alcohol is regulated. Any new consumer product that comes onto the market is faced with scrutiny. You know, if it was a defective seatbelt in the car, it's gonna get fixed. If the product doesn't work the way it's supposed to, it's gonna get fixed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:22)

Even food, I mean, we just had a major organic carrot recall in California. Yes. Yeah. . So, you know, so yeah.

Amy Neville: (31:29)

Why do we let kids that really are designed for addiction and, and where a lot of harm happens to our children, why are we letting them get away with that? I don't understand.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:40)

Me neither. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Amy Neville for her healthy screen habit.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:24)

I'm speaking with Amy Neville from the Alexander Neville Foundation. Now, Amy, as you know, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask my guests for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Amy Neville: (32:44)

So, you know, the, obviously don't get your kid, don't let your kids get started on these things. But if that, you know, train has already left the station, you gotta spend, um, five to 10 minutes a couple times a week looking through the recommended content that your kids are being pushed. Uh, if, if something looks harmful in there, uh, doesn't mean your kids search for it, it just means that's what the algorithm thinks they need to see. I mean, you're looking for diet pill advertisements, um, lingerie ads to teen girls. Like anything that you think is alarming, it probably is. And, and get in there. Set, set those, uh, settings to the highest security. Uh, make sure you have your kids' passwords. God forbid something should go wrong. You need to be able to get into that phone. I mean, those are just a couple of, of tips, but we, again, we could, I've got more. If anybody wants more , find me. I'll give you more

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:39)

Okay. Well, that's a perfect segue into finding a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to the Alexander Neville Foundation website, plus links to the two documentaries, plus a link to that the DEA, uh, emoji code kind of form. Um, you can do that. You can access all of these things by visiting the show notes for this episode. You Do that by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast tab and scroll to find this episode. Amy, thank you so much for being here and for sharing Alex with all of us, and for your tireless efforts to keep kids safe.

Amy Neville: (34:31)

Thank you. And thank you for the work that you do.

S12 Episode 1: Ex-SnapChat Executive Shares What She Knows To Keep Your Kids Safe // Sarah Gallagher Trombley

Wed, 15 Jan 2025 08:00:03 GMT

“it's really easy to get caught up in the excitement (of your child’s device)…you may not be fully aware of the functionalities in there, or the potential red flags. "

~ Sarah Trombley

Sarah Gallagher Trombley is on a mission to help parents navigate the digital world with and for their kids by providing insight, advice, and practical tips. Her work and messages cover a wide range of digital topics, including social media, new tech, and apps. As a former Snapchat executive, she saw firsthand how tech companies make decisions about child safety. (spoiler alert: it’s dismal)

On today’s episode she shares what she knows about parental controls, setting them up, and finding good solutions for families in our digital age.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.sarahgallaghertrombley.com/

Parents can also subscribe to Sarah's free digital parenting newsletter Thoughts From A Digital Mom on Substack.

Sarah's Substack: https://tfadigitalmom.substack.com

Sarah's Instagram: @digitalmomming

Google Family Link: https://families.google/familylink/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

My guest today is on a mission to help parents navigate the digital world with and for their kids by providing insight, advice, and practical tips. Her work and messages cover a wide range of digital topics, including social media, new tech, and apps. She also gets into parental controls, group texting and a whole lot more. As a former Snapchat executive, she saw firsthand how tech companies make decisions about child safety. She's here today, to share what she knows about finding good solutions for families in our digital age. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Sarah Gallagher Trombly.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (00:58)

Hi. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:01)

Sarah, you have more than 20 years experience in media and tech, and you've done marketing, content strategy, revenue development, plus worked for one of the biggest social media apps, like I said earlier. So all of that to say, what brought you to this realm of like the parenting digital wellness pool?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (01:29)

Yeah. Um, so I guess I should start by saying I'm a media tech executive and I'm also a mom. I have two kids, uh, in fourth grade and sixth grade. Currently, there are a lot of the reason why I do this work, but if I were to summarize it, there's really three things. So, first was, uh, while working at Snapchat, I had an existential crisis. I worked very closely with the team that was building content guidelines. I was in some of those early conversations about parental controls, and I was realizing that what I wanted, what I felt was right, was not necessarily, uh, the same set of values and decisions as my colleagues and peers. Uh, the second thing that happened was, uh, Surgeon General Murthy started talking publicly about, uh, his concerns about mental health, health outcomes for young people. So I was realizing more and more this was becoming a national issue. And then the third thing, quite honestly, as a parent, I was literally watching my children get swallowed by the YouTube algorithm and feeling I had a working knowledge of what to do, but I didn't really understand it as well as I wanted to. So all these three things together compelled me to take some action and start to share what I know with other parents.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:45)

Well, I am super grateful that you're here because I feel like, you know, I have talked to literally hundreds of people within digital wellness, and, um, you have, you are uniquely qualified to talk about some of the social media things and all of that. And so I really appreciate you being here today. Uh, we're, we're gonna get into other stuff, but real quick, just as a quick aside, I think it's so important people know, what can you tell me about Snapchat parent controls ?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (03:25)

So, uh, Snapchat parental controls, and this is true of all of the social media apps, are a second act. Uh, none of these apps were created with kids in mind. I think the most important thing for everyone to realize is that social media apps were created for adults. And recently they're all trying to retrofit controls to make kids safe. Uh, but the challenge is the more safety you put into an app, you are tamping down people's likelihood to spend more time. So it works against your business objectives. Uh, at Snapchat in particular, I would say they've taken a very conservative approach to their parental controls in that they don't have very many of them. Uh, the philosophy there is really, um, I've often heard it likened too. It's like the kids are in your basement, you know who's there, but you don't know what they're saying. And that's really been the guiding principle for their parental controls. In this day and age, it's not necessarily enough, given all that is happening on social media apps like Snapchat, there's a lot of predatory behavior from strangers. Uh, so not being able to see, uh, what's actually happening in some of these conversations is a real red flag.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:44)

Yeah, yeah. And unless I'm, unless there's been an update that I'm not aware of, it was my understanding that, uh, the parental controls can just be turned off by the kids. Is that still true?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (04:59)

Yes, That is still true for Snapchat. Uh, that is not true of all of the apps.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:02)

Right.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (05:03)

They are. You have to invite your child. You have to be on there, first of all, which for many parents is already a big hurdle because it's most, most adults don't really feel like Snapchat's for them, or many adults don't, I should say. You have to invite your child into supervision. They have to accept it, and then at any point they can turn it off, you will get notified. Uh, but they, it they're voluntary. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:26)

Yeah. Thank you. That was a little aside, but ,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (05:30)

It's an important one. . Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:32)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you are, like I said, you're well, well known as this expert on digital momming. I'm gonna call it . And you're also on the Wait Until Eighth board, correct? Yes. Mm-hmm . Yeah, Wait Until Eighth is an organization that encourages families to delay cell phones for kids until eighth grade. And I wanna focus mainly on parenting. But before we get started with that, can you, what is your stance on a policy that supports phone free schools?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (06:12)

Sure. So this is obviously a topic that's gotten a lot more momentum, particularly in the last probably six months. Um, I am for phone free schools. I think that giving our kids an opportunity to learn the best opportunity to learn is what we need our schools to do. Um, you know, I've heard a lot of people who have concerns about going phone free, what this would mean to parent-child communication in particular is the biggest issue that I hear parents push back on. I would say to those parents, um, that there are communication protocols in schools for ways to get in touch with your child when they are followed. Your child is the safest they can be. Uh, and the school day is for learning, and it is being shown more and more in the data how disruptive phones in classrooms, phones in the schools are to that learning environment. So I'm in favor.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:12)

Thank you. So it's a New Year. Yes. And I know many parents are looking to reboot tech habits and particularly coming off winter break because I know we, it's, it's very easy to, I mean, all of us are like,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (07:26)

There's a slide.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:27)

Exactly. Right. I mean, we, it's like the cozy movie watching, which is great. I mean, co-viewing is actually the best way to use tech. Totally. But it's, you know, I feel like I just need a cleanup of all things, dietary, exercise, tech habits, all the stuff. Right. So, um, do you have a recommended best practices around tech use?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (07:52)

Yeah, I have a few. Um, I, maybe it's because I worked in technology for as long as I, I did. I definitely have a bias towards the data. So I find that when I'm struggling to figure out how to have one of these conversations with my kids or even just get a grasp on my own behavior, I find it helpful to look at the usage data for the devices in question mm-hmm . To figure out actually how much time we're talking about. 'cause often these conversations are centered around how much time. And I think actually looking at it, it gives everybody the same baseline to jump off of. And I think that's just a helpful place to start and say, “okay, you know, just looking at this number objectively, does it feel like a lot? Does it feel like a little?” And start your conversations there, particularly if you're crawling things back.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (08:41)

Um, and then the other, uh, piece of advice I would give, and I think it's particularly relevant now as we're coming out of a gift giving season where many kids may have gotten new technology for the holidays, is I think this is probably the most important piece of advice I can give. Anytime you're introducing a new technology to a child, whether it's a device or an app or whatever it is, there should be a learning period, a coaching period that is both for you, the grownup, to learn how this thing works, and for the child to know and understand your expectations for how they're allowed to use it. Um, it's really easy to get caught up in the excitement of the thing for the child, and they run off and just start using it. And you may not be fully aware of the functionalities in there, or the potential, you know, red flags. Um, and then the next thing you know, it's, it's part of their daily life and you're not even quite sure what, how it gets used. Right. That happens actually a lot with Snapchat

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:43)

Now, now I'm wishing like we did this right before the holidays. Oh. I'm like, I'm thinking, gosh, this should be something that people are hearing. But that being said, I want to encourage people that, you know, you are always allowed to go back and say, “Wow, I've learned some new stuff. Let's have a reset on this. We're gonna, we're gonna take a step back so we can be a step ahead.” And your, your, uh, focus on the data and the metrics, I think is so important. Just going back to that old adage, like, we can't manage what we don't measure. So. Right. It's, I think it's super important and I think it, it really crystallizes a lot of your concerns and it removes the emotional component from it. So it's super wise to use those tools to help you .

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (10:39)

Absolutely. It does. It gives you a little bit of distance and it doesn't, it helps it become less of a sort of, take it personally, your: me versus you situation. Sure. You can both look at the data together Yeah. And talk about it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:53)

Yeah, I agree. So when we come back, we're gonna talk about some of the ways that kids might be skirting some of these tech rules and creatively accessing content.

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Ad Break: Bark

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Hillary Wilkinson: (11:58)

I'm speaking with Sarah Gallagher Trombley, the author of the Substack: Thoughts From a Digital Mom and an expert on translating all things technology into easy to understand parenting tips. So Sarah, I really wanna talk about, you shared a little bit earlier about parental controls, specifically regarding Snapchat and social media platforms, but I wanna talk more about parental controls and how, uh, kids are really just being so resourceful at using what they know. So all of that to say, I will NEVER back down from my stance that the very best layer of protection you can put in place with your child and your family's digital health is your relationship. The relationship rooted in communication, surrounded by love, all the things. But that being said, when we get into a car, we shut the door. Right? , right. And we put on a seatbelt. I feel like parental controls, like are literally, are as basic as the shutting of the door. I mean, I feel like it's not even the seatbelt, but they should be put in place as one of the layers of protection on devices. Can you get into some of the ways that our very resourceful and brilliant? You know, digital natives are getting around some of these tech rules.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (13:33)

Yes. Um, kids are nothing if not very intelligent and adaptable. And, um, I think what you said at the top of that is so important. Oftentimes the sneaking is the sign of something else, right? Yeah. The trick that they found. Yes. But really it comes back to the trust in the relationship, and that's like the core component you should be working on. That said, there are definitely some things that parents should just be aware of, um, and look out for. If you see these things, this may indicate that you've got a kid that is circumventing some of your rules. So one of the common hacks that, um, the kids are using that I've certainly observed, um, are hiding apps. So if your child has an app that they know you have said no to, um, and they still want it, and they found a way to download it, uh, from their app store, there's a couple of different ways kids use to hide it.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (14:31)

So sometimes it's as simple as just moving it over a few pages on the app screens, or creating one of those little, um, categories and renaming it. There's a lot you can do to rename things and they'll rename something super boring so that you might be like, oh, I don't need to go look in. They're like, you know, work tool, not work tools, but I don't need to look at their health settings. I don't need to look at their calculator, whatever it is. And in fact, if you went over to that app and actually dove in, you'd realize it wasn't that. It might be a social media app, it might be a Discord app, something like that. Um, there are actually app hiders as well. You can download an app that's called an app hider that helps you obscure things on your screen.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:13)

Awesome.Just awesome. That's, yeah,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (15:15)

, thank

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:15)

You

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (15:15)

So much. Really kinda high level ninja, uh, activity. Uh, the best defense on this, um, is when you are setting up parental controls, make sure that you have it so that you have to give permission for any new app to be downloaded to the phone. And every once in a while, check their deleted apps. That's another thing kids will do once they've got it down, they might delete it, but, and then use it, download it to use it, delete it, sort of that cycle so that if you were to ever grab the phone and spot check, it's not on there, but they know they've already downloaded it and they can re-add it. Gotcha. So that's one . Um, another trick that I've learned about recently is, is to circumvent time settings. Uh, kids will change the time zone that they're associated with so they can bypass your time limits. So if you're,if your bedtime in your household is 10 o'clock in California, they might switch to another time zone, so it's, you know, only eight o'clock where they are or

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:19)

Whatever. Of course, of course. And like it is, so I'm laughing because I'm like, that's so smart. Like, of course you would do that. I just lack the creativity to come up with it. Yes. But I'm like, but what, like, hat is off. I tip to you and my recognition of brilliance, .

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (16:39)

Yes, it is, it is very impressive. Um, and then, you know, another one I think, and this is pro applicable, I think of kids, you know, once they're, uh, using school products or using Google Classroom, is that you can actually chat back and forth through the Google suite of products by leaving comments and documents or an Excel sheet or whatever it's called Google Sheets. Um, and that is another sneaky way to communicate. So if you have a, maybe you're in a household and you're not allowed to text, or there's time limits on when you're allowed to be going back and forth on your phone, you might hop on your PC or your school issued Chromebook and open a Google Doc and go back and forth with one.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:20)

Yeah, absolutely. And you can, uh, uh, the, you can do pictures in Google Docs as well mm-hmm . So Yeah. You can do pictures. Yeah, no, it's, it's essentially it just takes the place of texting. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's the modern way of passing notes. .

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (17:35)

Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:35)

As someone, as someone who spent many a class period with my mm-hmm . You know, penning away to my best friend and completely ignoring what my algebra teacher was saying, ,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (17:47)

Of course. And then folding it up into a tiny rectangle, of course.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:51)

Oh, yes, exactly. Mm-hmm . So I, um, yeah, I, I both understand why. Yes. And, and please recognize like, this is so developmentally appropriate. Like this is exactly what those teen brains are hardwired to be doing, but it is our job to keep them on the rails. So, I mean, to approach it with humor and curiosity of like,” oh, you are so good at this!” Like, you know, it, um, I think it keeps the doors open rather than heading into that, like, like I said, that like sneaky spot, you know?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (18:29)

I think that's right. I think if you go into this thinking, I'm gonna catch all of the problems, it becomes the most exhausting game of whack-a-mole you'll ever play and you won't win. Mm-hmm . To be completely honest, they will, there will always be a new trick. Exactly. Um, but if you're start, if you're, if you're noticing it feels like, you know, my child's been on their phone longer than I said they could, or it seems like they're not doing schoolwork. When they open that, you know, then these are things you might look for to have the bigger conversation about what's really going on.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:59)

Right. Or if you know, your child is spending, you know, four and a half hours a night on, I'm using air quotes, uh, on “homework” mm-hmm . And yet their grades are not reflective of that level of studious behavior. Right. Like, maybe, maybe just explore a little deeper, you know?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley:

Yeah. , I think that that's fair.

Hillary Wilkinson:

And, and, um, yeah, and I mean, I also know of kids, there's quite, there's quite a, uh, to use the term black market sounds so nefarious, I will just say locker side market of burner phones. Yes. Kids, kids reselling older phones mm-hmm . Like, there's, there's a whole thing. So I think that's why this emphasis on the relationship of kids knowing the why we have Yes. These things in place. Yeah. So talking about, you know, the locker side market, and we talked earlier about phone free school policies. Um, we're kind of focusing on, on personal devices, which, um, in the school yard honestly are kinda low hanging fruit in my mind. The, the school issued devices are many things that parents don't know to be concerned about. And many parents assume that school issued devices are protected, which that is a very understandable assumption to have made. Mm-hmm . I mean, yeah. But can you, can you enlighten us about school issued devices?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (20:31)

Yes, there are a couple of things to look out for for school issued devices. Um, I will say not every school district has the same exact policy set up approach, but depending on where you are, some of these things may be true and you just wanna make sure you know what's going on. In many school districts, there is a firewall meant to protect anything that's going on on a school issued device, but it only extends to the property lines or the building lines. So that means anytime that school issued Chromebook is taken off the premises of school, it's not necessarily, um, protected. That firewall doesn't necessarily activate, which means it can be more dangerous in your house than it is in the classroom.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:19)

Yeah. The,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (21:20)

The other thing to look out for is, um, and this is a really easy one to overlook. So when many districts have Google Suite of, uh, sheets and documents and all of that, and they, the kids will have a, uh, school email that is set up through the Gmail client. So it's a technically a Gmail address, but it's whatever schools.org is your, uh, ending. And that is different than if they have their own personal Gmail account. Right. So when you're considering Google products, things like YouTube or the Chrome browser, both of which are made by Google, there is a way to set up parental controls for the whole Google universe that include those two things. To do that, you need a personal Gmail account for your child, and you link to that in this free app called Family Link, and you can lock down YouTube pretty well. You can lock down a Chrome browser pretty well, and that's wonderful. The trick is your child would have to be logged in through their personal account on that device to get those protections. Mm. If your child is logged in at home, outside of the firewall through their school id, they don't have the protections you've set up on their personal account. So that's another way these things start to happen.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:35)

You just taught me something and I'm the Healthy Screen Habits lady! So , so thank you Sarah .

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (22:43)

You are welcome.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:44)

. Yeah,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (22:46)

It's a lot. And it's not clear. It's

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:48)

So much and it's always changing. Not that that has been a changing thing, but it's like you said, I mean, the, the, the amount of information coming at parents who are not necessarily (myself is firmly in this camp, not necessarily tech savvy at all) it's like, I mean, it is like trying to stop Niagara Falls with the Dixie Cup, right? I mean, so that's,

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (23:12)

Well, that's it. And you might have done all the right things. You might have said, all right, I'm getting a handle on YouTube and that browser right now, and I'm locking them down, and you've done all the right things, but what you hadn't considered was this other use case.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:24)

Yeah.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (23:24)

Yeah. And that's what keeps happening to so many parents. You've got obviously the right intentions, you're working really hard at this thing, and yet there's always another layer you hadn't considered, or another angle.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:35)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (23:36)

It's so frustrating.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:37)

Yeah. And then, uh, one of the things that you recently covered in your substack was, um, I think it was your Substack. I, I, I've, I've, you know, whatever, that's neither here nor there, . Um, but, but, um, how a very, a very good, resourceful, creative way to problem solve if you're a kid is how to get around third party, um, management. So I'm talking about apps like Bark. Okay. Yes. Which we, we recommend and we support mm-hmm . But, and you, do you wanna enlighten us out the very genius way kids are getting around Bark?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (24:19)

Yes. So there is a hack for Bark in specific, really any of the third party apps with Bark is the most popular one. Um, and it is very good, but one way kids can get around it is if they've got the app on their phone, because you've set it up, uh, if they delete it and then redownload it, it resets, which means that the settings that you set up as your parent-child relationship for that app disappear mm-hmm . And it's like a blank slate again. So that is one way that kids, um, will get around Bark. They, like I did to research that article, can find all of this information on Reddit. There's lots of subreddits that tell kids literally how to circumvent so many things. So if you're ever curious or wondering, ask Reddit the question, you will probably find some more hacks in there and hopefully some more solutions. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:08)

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the enlightenment, . Okay. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Sarah for her healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break: Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Tweens and Teens

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I'm speaking with Sarah Gallagher Trombley, author of Substack: Thoughts from a Digital Mom and digital expert. Sarah, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (25:50)

So, my best tip is what I like to call radical transparency. So I have found as somebody working in this space that I spend a lot of time on social media. And if I'm honest with myself, most of it's for work, but not all of it is. And I notice that when I'm on it more or I'm on it in front of my kids, it's setting a certain message, uh, without saying it that it's okay to be on this device at this time. And I think it's important for our kids to know what we're doing if we're on a phone in front of them. I also think it's important for kids to understand if we, and I am one of these people, sometimes struggle with our own dependency on screens. Um, I talk to my kids a lot about what I'm doing. If I have, if I'm looking at my phone while we're standing at the check line in the supermarket, and I've caught myself checking Instagram when I have no business doing it, and I will say, you know what? I shouldn't have done that. Uh, this is not the time for it, and I'm gonna try something different. So I like to, I like to tell on myself a little bit when I've messed up, and then talk about what I'm gonna do to change the habit. Nobody's perfect. Your kids also will make mistakes with technology. They need to know it's okay to make a mistake, but also that you're aware of your own behavior and you're holding yourself accountable, I think are really, really important. And those are things you can start doing right now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:14)

Yeah. I can't agree with you more. And I too, um, struggle a lot and it's always stinking Instagram with me, with me. And especially like we said, this time of year, I pull in, like I'm in my car, I pull in, I keep my phone like in the backseat or away from me, so I don't, I'm not even tempted to look at it while I'm driving. I'm very strict on that. Mm-hmm . But I get in and like I, my car seat, the, the seater heater is on. It's all cold and warm. There's nobody pulling at you once you walk in from the garage, you know, it's like life takes over. Right. And I will spend a ridiculous amount of time in the garage, in my car, by myself, and it's, um, and yeah, no, it's something that I struggle with, so, and I have to be transparent about as well with my family. So they will open the garage door and just be like, “Hey!” I'm like, “Yep. Okay. Thank you. Moving a moving along here.” So, Sarah, you have an exciting webinar series that just dropped, right? Yes, yes. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (28:31)

I do. So new here in January, I have launched what I'm calling a Digital Parenting Learning Lab. Uh, this is a series of on-demand courses that parents can take to master those pieces of technology that they're struggling with or are new to and want to learn more about. So my very first course, which just dropped is the middle school course. Mm-hmm . And the middle school course will touch on all of the topics you would be thinking about if you have a middle schooler or you have an about to be middle schooler. So helping figure out how to decide whether you would give a smartphone or a dumb phone if you've given a smartphone, how do you set up the parental controls on it? What do you need to know about social media? What do you need to know about those hacks we just talked about?

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (29:21)

Because there's a bunch more of those that we didn't have time for. Um, all of these different facets of communication group texting and texting in general is another big topic in there. But all of these facets of technology and communication that start to become, uh, big topics for middle schoolers that you need to be prepared for. And then you need to be able to actually set up the protections around them if you're going to say yes to them. Yeah. So I'm really excited about this. I think this will be incredibly helpful for parents. And it's short little videos, so you can watch the one on how to set up that control, and then you can come back to it later. Or you can skip ahead to social media and come back to the texting when you need it. However, you need to take the, the courses

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:04)

Perfect. So you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Sarah's website and her socials by visiting the show notes for this episode. And you do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Sarah, thank you so much for being here today and working so hard to translate these kind of like a higher level tech things, to be specific, but these higher level tech tips just for lay people like me.

Sarah Gallagher Trombley: (30:42)

Thank you so much. This was so much fun. I really appreciate it.

S11 Episode 13: Screen Balanced Holiday Tips and a Few Blunders // Hillary Wilkinson

Wed, 20 Nov 2024 06:00:00 GMT

"The gift of devices is truly not one that keeps on giving. It's one that keeps on taking. It takes free time. It takes (away individual) agency, it takes the place of conversations."

~ Hillary Wilkinson

Resources

Healthy Screen Habits for Tweens and Teens by Amy Adams and Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

True story. I'm recording this seasonal wrap up in advance. It's literally the day after Halloween. As you remember, Halloween was on a Thursday this year, which means many brilliant school district officials decided that today, November 1st, would be a student free day. Not my district . Nope. I just shoved a very cute high schooler with an epic messy bun out the door . As I did that, I was like, okay, gonna get myself going, turned on some music and wow, the Christmas carols, you guys are out in force November 1st on nearly every playlist. I'm too lazy to make my own, so I just give, I just do the, uh, generated ones. So it just reminds me that it is here, and I am not nearly ready for the, the magic, the mayhem, and the mania of the holidays. I am not ready either to see on my feed, my social feeds, what I know what is coming.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:16)

That is the perfectly matched pajamas and the beautiful hot cocoa bars and the, uh, the gifts that are purchased, and somehow they're like already stylistically displayed without the cats eating the ribbons and the dog dripping tree water all over them as the new living room, water bowl, AKA tree stand gets, uh, sampled. You know, I've just given you a deep peek into my house, . So that being said, trying to achieve this perfection, this stylized perfection that has been manufactured by influencers and interior design sorts, who all of who have photographers to check their lighting and they make the posting of these things their full-time job, it is a job. But that being said, this perfection is overrated. Everyone strives for this perfection, but no one relates to it. When you walk into someone's home, where do you feel most comfortable? Do you feel most comfortable walking into someone's living room?

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:36)

And it looks like the Four Seasons, or if there's, you know, the blankets on the couch, the books are on the floor. There's my, my aunt gave me the great tip when I was a young mom of just take your vacuum out and put it in the middle of the floor and everybody will assume you're in the middle of cleaning. So there you go. There's my tip of the day, . So now that my kids are a little bit older, and I've, I know I've said this before, I've got this benefit of hindsight and I understand something that is, that mistakes are where the memories are made. And when I mean by that is the remembrances of these perfect events are lovely, but the ones that bring down the house with laughter, with the storytelling, the revisiting of these moments are the ones that involved, you know, the year the dog tried to eat all the gingerbread ornaments off the tree, or the years we've been evacuated due to wildfires.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:45)

Again, my or, or my SoCal is showing here. But those are the stories that get told again and again. Those are the ones that we remember and laugh at. And as it turns out, the mistakes are where the memories are made. So give yourself the grace to get it wrong and be okay with the things that don't turn out. The way you react is going to be what your kids remember. And if we have learned anything from this year from our surgeon general, is that today's parents are overworked, overstressed, too tired and alone lonely. So, you know what, give yourself a day off. Take a pajama day. Designate one night a week to be breakfast for dinner. Everybody will love it. And go to bed early without your cell phone. Charge it in your bathroom. I tell you, if you can just enact a few of these things just to clear your schedule, we, we continually pile stuff on it, but clear parts of your schedule.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:01)

Make every Thursday, you know, have a set outfit that's like, oh, it's Thursday sweater day, and you know which sweater you're gonna wear every Thursday. So just take away some of the decision fatigue. One thing that you should not please don't make the mistake this year, is gifting a smartphone to your child. The gift of devices is truly not the one that keeps on giving. It's the one that keeps on taking. It takes free time. It takes agency, it takes the place of conversations. As Jonathan Haidt so eloquently put it earlier this year, the moment you give your child a smartphone is the moment you take away their childhood. The phone has become an experience blocker to rival no other. There are many alternative, safer devices that can help your family tread lightly into tech. There is also the new healthy screen habits for tweens and teens workbook that can act as a sort of training manual for your child.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:19)

And here's a recommendation, one that like, I don't know that you're gonna hear many people say, oh, here's our, here's our handbook, here's our workbook. Don't give it as a gift. Like, don't, don't do it. But that's what I'm gonna say. Do not give this handbook, do not give this workbook as a gift. It, it's not a gift. It's not going to go over well. And we know this. It's not something that kids are going to ask for. It's a tool for you parents. It's a tool that what I was just talking about, how parents are so overstressed and overworked. This is a tool to make your life easier, to make sure that your child understands why they have a hard time putting their phone down. And for kids to spend time exploring themselves, their own likes, their dislikes, to develop their own sort of, uh, just sense of self.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:17)

And it's a tool for also online etiquette and of course safety. But it's not a great gift. No kid's gonna want this as a gift. What the thing you should do is it's a great thing to bring out that week in between Christmas and New Year's. You know, that kind of no man's land. Do like a chapter a day for discussion, or if you're going on a road trip, bring it along on the road trip for family talks in the car. Technology is something that we all, like humanity is figuring out. It's important for our kids to see the areas we struggle with too. Lots of times they help brainstorm fixes. So for example, this summer my son announced he was gonna delete Instagram for the week. Our family vacation was happening to be more present. And I I was kind of embarrassed that it took my kid to point out, oh yeah, that is a really good idea.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:20)

So I took his lead and I deleted it too. And it was so freeing. I wasn't thinking about what would make good posts during our like, daily activities. And honestly, I did not miss seeing what other people were doing because I didn't care because I was more engaged with the people in front of me and enriching my own life during that very special one week a year that we actually all have together. So if you are looking for a list of devices or companies that are healthy screen habits endorsed, please visit our website@healthyscreenhabits.org and look under tools for the products we endorse. If you're, if you're deeply committed to wanting to gift something tech related, that's, I I, I recommend going that way. There are other sites that offer great lists of tech free activities. I would go check out, uh, Brooke, Brooke Romney on Brooke Romney writes, I would check out better screen time. They usually post a whole list. There's a, you, you can find a number of great lists of tech-free gift ideas. Um, so here we go. Now, uh, the spirit of giving a little levity to this season as well as standing by my message of embracing mistakes, which I am going to work to remember this year as things invariably mess up. Here are some of this past season's bloopers and blunders. Just a few. Enjoy,

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:03)

Everyone strives for this. Protect perfection. Let me say that again. Strike that bud. Okay. I am speaking with Taton Jordan from Par, let me start again. They were featured in the NBC News Live special Generation swipe and have done nearly 30 national and international interviews and news pieces. I am A, B, C, did I say NBC? Yes. Shoot, sorry. Okay, I'm gonna thank you for catching that. I'll back it up. Okay. As well as major school districts including you, um, including LA Unified, Los Angeles, sorry, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna start again.

As always, the Healthy Screen Habits crew is going on holiday hiatus as we walk our talk and spend time with our own families during these very fun festive days. Thank you so much. I really, really mean it. Thank you so much for listening weekly and learning with me this season. I look forward to joining you in 2025 as we continue to learn new healthy screen habits together for now. Healthy Screen Habits wishes all of you a healthy, happy holiday season and very definitely a happy New Year.

S11 Episode 12: Bark Technologies // Titania Jordan

Fri, 15 Nov 2024 03:37:58 GMT

"If and when it's time for a child to have a safer smartphone, what should that look like? How can we help them utilize the best that comes with this technological innovation and mitigate the harms and the distractions?"

~ Titania Jordan

Featured in Time Magazine as one of the best inventions of 2023. The Bark phone continues to expand and deliver upon the reliability and safety needs for kids as they explore their online life. Today, listen to Bark's Chief Parenting Officer, Titania Jordan, to learn more about the Bark phone, the Bark for Schools app, and so much more.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://barkparentalcontrols.pxf.io/DKam7q

Resources Mentioned:

https://www.bark.us/schools

Show Transcript

Featured in Time Magazine as one of the best inventions of 2023. The Bark phone continues to expand and deliver upon the reliability and safety needs for kids as they explore their online life. I am so excited today to bring in Bark's Chief Parenting Officer to learn more about the phone, the Bark for Schools app, and so much more. She's a super well-known face in digital wellness and an expert on kids and tech. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Titania Jordan.

Titania Jordan: (01:02)

Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:06)

Titania. Before we dive into this sort of world of digital wellness, I wonder could you tell us a little bit about yourself? What brought you to digital wellness? Mm.

Titania Jordan: (01:17)

You know, I think it was just a function of when I was born 1980, um, and being super interested and curious in how this whole tech thing works, you know? Um, and then social media came about at a time where I was, uh, a young professional and then a new mom. So it was a wonderful place for me to get real time support for being a mom for the first time. Um, and it just became a part of my life. And because of that, uh, there were not only good things about it, but also bad things. And once I started to realize how it was impacting me negatively and then apply it to how I knew it could and was impacting children negatively, I just, I couldn't think of a more fitting and important mission to focus on, uh, given my perspective and career choices, uh, then to keep kids safer online.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:16)

So, um, I have to ask, 'cause I kind of love this title, Chief Parenting Officer , do you have a name tag you wear around the house or a uniform? Is it, is it respected in your home or is it just, just always right? Yeah, always. You're like, no, listen up guys, I'm a big deal here. .

Titania Jordan: (02:36)

Yeah. Like, in my own home, let's do this. Um, no, I don't. I'm, uh, so my son's almost 16 now. Um, I never see him. I am, you know, it's, it's a common meme now where parents joke about, um, texting your teenagers, like texting a guy who's not interested in you. You know, like Mm-Hmm. literally texted him we're in the same house. But I texted him today like, “I miss you. Can we hang out today?” Nothing nothing. So I forgot what you Oh, yeah. Chief Parenting Officer. Yeah. Nobody cares in my house. Um, but outside the house, kind of a big deal.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:14)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, they keep us honest, right? .

Titania Jordan: (03:18)

Right. But in all seriousness, you know, I know that's not a common title that, um, that you, you see, um, which is why I have a dual title of Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Parenting Officer. Um, but the Chief Parenting Officer one, it's really meaningful. Um, I didn't come up with it. Our CEO Brian Basin, who's a dad of two, uh, bestowed it upon me. And, um, it's, it's an honor because it's, that's what we're doing, is helping parents, parent in a world that has never existed before. We, we don't have a manual for this. Right. So, um, uh, yeah, I, uh, I don't take the responsibility lightly and, um, yeah. One day at a time, right,

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:05)

Yeah. Yeah. So I know that everybody focuses on this. We're navigating a whole new world, you know, thing. Mm-Hmm. , which I, yes, yes. And yes, we are. However, I argue that equally important is the fact that yes, we are the first generation of parents to be charting this new course within tech and parenting equally important, we are the last generation to remember the before.

Titania Jordan: (04:37)

Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:38)

Yes. So that is key. And it is key that people really sit in that throne of strength, of knowing the power, of being disconnected and of having time in your head.

Titania Jordan: (04:54)

Yeah. We are critical. Mm-Hmm. for this inflection point in terms of helping people to realize that it doesn't have to be this way. Mm-Hmm. , uh, and it's actually healthier to have more balance.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:07)

I agree. I agree. So moving forward with that, how does the Bark App or using a Bark device, why is it important to install those things?

Titania Jordan: (05:25)

Well, um, it'd be one thing if the tech that we let our children access was just inherently safe. And we had, they had to, or somebody had to go through a lot of work to try to make it unsafe. But in fact, it's the opposite. Um, and so just by bringing the internet into your home, or putting a smart TV on your wall, or handing your child a tablet that's not theirs. It's just yours, but you're letting them play with it. You are introducing them to some of the worst content and people that exist. Mm-Hmm. . So there is a need for education, uh, tools, uh, like Bark that help children to have a safer experience with tech and help parents be in the know when their children have encountered problematic content or problematic people. Um, and I know we'll probably talk about this at some point, but there's also greater need, uh, for, you know, legislation to help thwart some of this stuff from even happening in the first place. Mm-Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:30)

. Mm-Hmm. Do you have any of the current stats around cyber harms?

Titania Jordan: (06:36)

I mean, we could have seven podcasts on that right alone. Right, right. Um, but from our annual report, um, which we, every year we analyze, uh, billions of data points, uh, across, you know, Bark helps to protect over 7 million children across the United States. And, um, last year, 2023, we analyzed over 5.6 billion data points across children's text, email, social media accounts, et cetera. And, and what we found just from our internal data is staggering. I mean, 33% of tweens and 57% of teens were involved in a self-harm or suicidal situation. 58% of tweens and 75% of teens encountered nudity or content of a sexual nature. I mean, I could go on and on and on and on and on. Predators, disordered eating, bullying, depression, violence, anxiety, it's, it's a lot. It's heavy. And we're talking about children.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:42)

Right, right. No, and I, I, you know, I, I question whether this, uh, announcement that Instagram made big news recently with the big announcement of the parental controls. I don't know if they're effective, if at all, but you are exactly the person who I need to be asking this too.

Titania Jordan: (08:12)

Yes. Yes. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:12)

Are are they any good? Is that like, so Instagram's big news of, oh, we have parental controls, which the timing of that announcement was really choice. I'll just add with, you know, with the whole, with KOSA and which is now KOSPA in, uh, in legislation, and it was, it was really interesting the timing around Instagram's big announcement, but are they any good? Is the, are the parental controls in Instagram any good?

Titania Jordan: (08:43)

Are they any good? Yes, they are something and something's better than nothing. Um, they are meaningful, but they're not enough. You know, if Instagram launched this three years ago, I would be applauding it, uh, more wholeheartedly. But to your point, they could have done this a long time ago. Mm-Hmm. And they decided to do it within 24 hours of a Senate committee hearing around this very topic of regulating big tech when it comes to online safety of children. So that's incredibly suspect. Um, and what they neglected to do, which child privacy and safety experts have highlighted as one of the major problems around predation and bullying and sextortion, is they neglected to hide the following and follower, uh, count, uh, not only count, but the, the details of who's following a child and who the child is following. And that's problematic because if you're trying to abuse a child and you're trying to get into their inner circle, you start to friend request their circle so that you seem like a mutual connection.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:52)

Absolutely. Um, and that's how we know how most sextortion rings are operating. Right. How most sextortion rings are getting into kids' dms by sort of this like co-vetting of Yeah. They’re, they're friends of friends, therefore the, you know, the individual who's being approached with the friend request is, is vetting them via association.

Titania Jordan: (10:18)

Right. And you have to wonder why didn't they give that, uh, option, um, you know, for Facebook also owned by Meta, you can do that. You can turn off the ability for your friends to see your friend list. So why not with an Instagram? Right. Especially for minors. So are they, are they, um, are they worthwhile? Yeah, they're great, but they should have already existed and they're not going to prevent, you know, some of the core issues that are happening on that platform.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:48)

Right. When we come back, we're going to talk about how Bark is helping kids stay safe on school devices.

—--------Ad Break: Donor thank you

Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Titania Jordan, the CMO and Chief Parent Officer at Bark Technologies, a company that helps to protect over 7 million children across the nation through their app and safer Smartphone for Children. In 2020 our schools did something that prior to the COVID-19 shutdown was unprecedented. They issued one-to-one devices to every student. Now, these were absolutely crazy times. We were all doing the best with what we could, with what we had. And that being said, it has largely never gone back. Okay. We've got those one-to-One Devices Tech is in the hands of most school kids daily. And as we all know where kids go, predators will follow. And I, I mean, we cannot count the number of stories we hear at Healthy Screen Habits about school issued devices accessing inappropriate content. Parents are so frustrated. And a big part of the reason why I wanted Titania to come on was many parents that I speak to are not aware of Bark for Schools. And can you do a deep dive for us into Bark for Schools? I mean, like Absolutely. Yeah. Like, when you guys developed it, you know, cost, what's it compatible with? I, I'll, I'll pepper you with questions. .

Titania Jordan: (12:57)

Yes, go for it. Yeah. So Bark For Schools is our free give back, um, to any K through 12 school in the United States. Um, we provide monitoring for Microsoft 365 and Google Workspace, including Chrome and Chromebook and DNS filtering. We launched Bark for Schools, uh, in response to the tragic Parkland shooting, um, as a way to help schools protect students online at no cost to them or their communities. You know, we knew that our tech was helping consumers, parents, um, with their children and issues that were happening on the personal devices, but we also know that a lot of times things are happening on school issued devices. Mm-Hmm. , like children writing suicide notes, uh, or threats in Google Docs. Right? On the school issued Chromebooks. And so, um, the fact that we're able to, uh, thwart credible threats, uh, because of this work with Bark for Schools and our footprint of over, uh, 3,700 school districts now is just so meaningful.

Titania Jordan: (14:00)

So it's free, it's free for any school in the nation. Um, there is, as we've seen a need for essentially 24/7, 365 on call service, uh, so that if a school administrator gets an alert and it's 2:00 AM and they can't wait until 8:00 AM the next day, um, there is a, a, a paid version, almost like a, you know, hotline. Like, Hey, let's, let's deal with this asap. mm-hmm. . Um, so that part isn't free, but we have to pay for the people to, you know, be available to talk to you. Um, so that's how that is paid for. But, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's been incredible what this collaboration has surfaced.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:48)

For sure. For sure. Now, just for clarity, is it something that parents can use on their own, or do you have to have a school subscribe to Bark for Schools? Or like, how does that all work?

Titania Jordan: (15:02)

So it depends what the school decided to do. We, so the school gets Bark for free and they connect the school issue devices and accounts, but they also have a parent dashboard that we give them. Now, if they turn that on, then a parent is able to go to that dashboard and collaborate with the school administration on things that are happening. And within that dashboard, we give parents the ability to upgrade and, you know, use Bark, um, for their personal devices as well. Some schools will pay for Bark for their families. Um, so then these parents actually have Bark for their personal home use for free, um, that they can take advantage of. Um, sometimes there's discounts, sometimes it just, it just, it's school by school. But essentially, um, Bark For Schools is free. Every school should use it. It can be compatible with other, uh, filtering and monitoring systems too, if you are have already, you know, signed up for something and paying for something, but you want a little extra, uh, robust AI. Um, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:11)

Yeah. So the, the question, the next question I have is around like privacy. Mm-Hmm. . So if you're using Bark for Schools, do the notifications of alerts go, they don't go to the parents, they go to school admin? Is that how it works?

Titania Jordan: (16:27)

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Uh, um, yeah, the, the school issued devices and accounts are the responsibility of the school.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:37)

Gotcha.

Titania Jordan: (16:37)

Um, and they're also responsible for protecting the children that they give that to. Mm-Hmm. . And so when there's an issue that comes up, then it goes to the admin. Um, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:47)

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, thank you. Mm-Hmm. . So let's move from Bark from Schools and now talk about the Bark phone. Yes. Which is a super great alternative as a first phone. And can you tell us about the Bark phone? Like, why is it better than just taking a stripped down iPhone or a flip phone or something like that?

Titania Jordan: (17:13)

Yeah. So the Bark phone, um, was built essentially by our CTO, Brandon —-, a dad of two. Um, and his children really, really wanted a smartphone, and he was like, absolutely not unless I can build a safer one for you. And he did. And it's, uh, it's the most customizable kids' phone with text and social media monitoring built in. Now that said, we know that kids, you know, really don't need social media. And so there's many options. You can give your child a bark phone and not have any internet or social media on it at all. It's just talking and texting and that's it. And you can track your child's location, um, et cetera. You even have the ability to turn the camera on and off remotely. Let's say they're going to a friend's house and you're, you just don't want them messing around with a camera, you know, taking photos or videos.

Titania Jordan: (18:12)

Boom. You can handle that from your own smartphone, um, as your child grows. Um, or let's say, you know, their teacher really wants them to do some research, and so you want to let them use the browser for a minute. You can turn that on and sit aside them and, and, you know, look up something that they need to look up and then turn it back off. Um, you can set time limits that actually work. And I say that because a lot of families will opt to give their child an iPhone and think, oh, well, I'll just use screen time. And that would be great if screen time didn't have known bugs that have been out for over two years that Apple still hasn't fixed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:53)

Yeah, very true. Yeah. So, um, do you wanna add anything more?

Titania Jordan: (19:00)

Yeah, I just wanna say like a few more things about the Bark phone because it's just like, there's so many great things about it that don't exist with other phones. For example, we know that sexting is a problem with children. It's the new first base. And so with the Bark phone, if a child goes to take a nude photo or video, it doesn't save to the device. It doesn't even let them capture child sexual abuse material much less send it. Um, which is a huge, huge, uh, sigh of relief for parents when they're giving their kid a digital device. Um,

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:29)

So how does it do that? Who, like, how

Titania Jordan: (19:32)

, right, right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:34)

I, I like, I'm just from my own curiosity, how does it, how does it know?

Titania Jordan: (19:40)

Um, our data science team is incredible and was able to, uh, create, I guess parameters, for lack of a better term, um, to help decipher if the media surfaced, um, was a child uhhuh. Uh, it's, you know, I, um, I can't speak to it because I'm not a data scientist or an engineer. Um, and also proprietary,

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:08)

But I, I wouldn't understand it anyways.

Titania Jordan: (20:10)

So , well, . But, um, yeah, no, I mean, when our, when when Brandon told me like, Hey, we're we're building this functionality, I was like, are you kidding me? Like, this is the game changer. Like this is lifesaving. So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:26)

And, and like, you know, you just wonder why doesn't, if you guys can do it, I'm positive that Meta can do it. And why isn't Meta doing it already? I,

Titania Jordan: (20:37)

Exactly. And back to Apple for a minute. Um, within Apple, for those families listening who have already given their children, you know, apple devices, there is something within screen time, uh, called communication safety. And if you turn the communication safety feature on it will, if it detects it, blur nude imagery and almost give children a little bit of a speed bump notification of like, Hey, this looks like it's sensitive media. Are you sure you wanna send it? Are you sure you wanna view it Now that's better than not doing anything at all, but it's still not enough. You know, I don't think we need to leave it up to children to decide whether they want to send nudes or not.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:19)

Right. Right. 'cause clearly, I mean, if they're taking them, they have the intent. So .

Titania Jordan: (21:25)

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, for older children, you can lock the bark phone while they're driving, um, to help limit distractions. I mean, honestly, we all need that. Right. Um, I mean, there's so many, there's so many things because we looked at this through the lens of if and when it's time for a child to have a safer smartphone, what should that look like? How can we help them utilize the best that comes with this technological innovation and mitigate the harms and the distractions? Mm-Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:56)

. Mm-Hmm. . So I know that even as we're talking, and I'm convinced, but , what if parents are still kind of like on the fence over this, like monitoring, limiting screen use all the, you know, all of the things. Do you have any set advice that you kind of give parents to, I don't wanna say convince them, but just to educate as far as,

Titania Jordan: (22:24)

You know, I like to just think back to what I would do differently. You know, as a mom of a sophomore in high school, whew. I made all the mistakes, all of them. Um, and so what I, what I would do if I had a do-over, gosh, I wish I had a do-over, um, I would delay, delay, delay as my friend, our friend, probably Chris McKenna says, delay is the way. Um, just because all my, all of my son's friends are playing, you know, Roblox or Minecraft or Fortnite doesn't mean we need that in our home. Um, just because everybody in my son's fourth grade class got an iPhone doesn't mean that he needed one as well to fit in. Right. Um, you know, our children will pull on our heartstrings and appeal to our desire for them to not be left out. Mm-Hmm.

Titania Jordan: (23:18)

'em to not be left out and, and implore us to not let them be left out. But on the flip side, it's our jobs to make sure our children are left out of the bullying and graphic sexual content and addictive algorithms. So I would just be confident in the fact that you are the adult, you are the parent. It is your job to keep your kids safer, not only in real life with seat belts, but online. And so tech is neither good nor bad. It's a tool. So make sure you have the safer version of the tool. Right. Like when your kid turns 16, you don't give them a Lamborghini with no seatbelt, give them a Honda with airbags. Right. And, and so just, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:02)

And with lots of drivers training ,

Titania Jordan: (24:04)

Lots of, and, and car insurance. Right. Yeah. And, um, so, you know, I've clearly gone down a rabbit hole now, or like I'm on my soapbox. Um, and I, I don't know if I answered your question, but essentially

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:17)

That's okay. I think personal testimony is very powerful advice because, you know, you have the benefit of that, that 20/20 hindsight that a lot of times we wish we had before. Yes. You know, and,

Titania Jordan: (24:33)

Well, not, not only that, if I may interrupt, um, I started a Facebook group called Parenting in a Tech World in 2017 when my son was younger, and I needed help and advice, and I was like, “let me crowdsource!” Okay, now there's over 550,000 parents in that group, and I have yet to hear a parent say, I should have given my child access to X, Y, Z sooner. Not yet. And on the flip side, every single day, my same story is being echoed. And so that's why I'm so confident about it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:06)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's perfect advice. I wouldn't change a thing. . Okay,

Titania Jordan: (25:11)

Great.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:12)

So I, um, I don't want to name call, but I feel like you, again are uniquely qualified to answer this question. So with all of your background and your research and all of the things, what do you see as the most problematic social media app?

Titania Jordan: (25:34)

Oh, I would say Snapchat.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:42)

Oh my gosh. We're aligned. . Yeah.

Titania Jordan: (25:45)

I mean, the reason Snapchat started as an app was to send disappearing nudes. Mm-Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:54)

It was called Peekaboo. Yeah.

Titania Jordan: (25:56)

Yeah. So it was

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:56)

Originally called Peekaboo, and yeah. Due to it name infringement issues, they had to change it. And hence the name Snapchat evolved. And Snapchat now has this marketing campaign about, you know, not being social media: being connection!

Titania Jordan: (26:15)

Oh my gosh.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:16)

I, oh, give it to me Titania! Go ahead.

Titania Jordan: (26:20)

Every time I see one of those blasted billboards, I'm just like, err. And for those of you who can't see me right now, I'm raising my fist in just like a err, I'm so mad. 'cause it's a lie. It's like less like

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:34)

That a lie.

Titania Jordan: (26:35)

Yeah. Less likes, more Snapchat, like not social media. You are the epitome of social media. Right. Everything

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:42)

That you could define

Titania Jordan: (26:45)

Oh my, yes. Gosh, Idiots!

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:46)

And, okay, so it started within this realm of this sneaky, sneaky kind of winky wink thing of like disappearing nudes. But now even more, I, you know, it's hard to say even more because the damage is the damage, right? Mm-Hmm. . And we're not gonna, I'm not gonna, I I I will not put pain on a continuum here. It's all pain that is being caused. Mm-Hmm. by the amount of drug trafficking and fentanyl deaths that are happening as a result of drug trafficking on Snapchat.

Titania Jordan: (27:21)

Yeah. Children are dying. Yes. Uh, it's not just a nudes issue. Correct. Or an exploitation issue or reputation issue. Children are dying because of the app, because of Snapchat. Um, children can have drugs delivered to their home as easily and quickly and covertly, uh, as a pizza, just slip it in their mailbox. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and we've seen the faces of those precious children, you know, on, on cards behind hearings that have taken place, uh, where Evan Spiegel was in the audience, the CEO of Snap. I don't think he turned around and apologized. Um, so that's, that's one thing, correct me if I'm wrong, uh, and not just, not just drug trafficking, but let's talk about, um, making children feel acutely left out. Mm-Hmm. , you know, with Snap Maps.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:10)

With Snap Maps. Yep.

Titania Jordan: (28:10)

Yeah. I, I, I can't think of a reason why I need to see where all my friends are and I'm not, um, you know, the, my AI feature built into the app that leads children astray with bad advice. Mm-Hmm. , uh, the, my eyes Only Vault, uh, that hides things that I would argue children don't need to even be encountering exposed

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:31)

To. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.

Titania Jordan: (28:32)

Or, um, or media. You know, there, there are collaborations with platforms like HBO that show children content that they're not ready for yet. I mean, it just, they're, I can't think of a single good thing about this app.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:45)

No. When we present at, um, parent education nights, you know, various schools, et cetera, I have had more than one administrator stand up and just say, the thing that consumes the most amount of their time is Snapchat. And it's just, it's so, I agree with you. It's my least. It, it is my least favorite and by least favorite, I'm gonna put it on the most hated social media app list.

Titania Jordan: (29:19)

Yeah. I, um,

Titania Jordan: (29:25)

And sorry, I'm just so angry about this. Like, Snapchat's this, this bold resistance to work with families Yes. Who have lost children Yes. And parental control options that could help, because at the end of the day, they know that the second they roll out meaningful parental controls, the user base is gone. Mm-Hmm. . And they're struggling with revenue. Um, it's why they roll out Snapchat plus, and, uh, the solar system feature, I mean, it's just like, oh, they're just so bad. They're so bad and they're so wrong, and there's so many things that they could do, um, that they are not doing. And it's, it's wrong.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:10)

We have to take a short break. But when we come back, I am going to ask Titania Jordan for her healthy screen habit.

—Ad Break: Bark

I'm speaking with Titania Jordan from Bark, a company whose mission is to keep kids safer online. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home nearly immediately. What's yours?

Titania Jordan: (31:24)

Love this question. Uh, please do not allow connected tech in the bedrooms or behind closed doors.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:34)

Yep.

That's it!

Titania Jordan: (31:36)

Period.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:36)

I agree!

Titania Jordan: (31:39)

Easy, free, everybody can do it. You cannot argue with it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:42)

Exactly. Collect all devices or j and just set that precedent of I love that. No connected tech. Yeah. In bedroom.

Titania Jordan: (31:49)

Yeah. And that includes, that includes smart TVs and gaining consoles. Yes. A lot of people just think, oh, smartphones, iPads, it's anything, anything that connects on the internet doesn't belong in a bedroom or behind closed doors for a child at least.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:02)

Yes. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to the Bark website by visiting this show notes for this episode. If you do decide to order from it, use the code HSHabits to receive a discount. Do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Titania, thank you so much for being here today and for working so hard every day to keep all of our kids safe.

Titania Jordan: (32:35)

Thank you. Right back at you.

The Healthy Screen Habits Podcast

S15 Episode 10: I Survived High School With A Flip Phone // Talmage Erickson

"Connection is the cure for any disease."

~Talmage Erickson

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

S15 Episode 9: Screen Aware Childhood // Pat Cantor, Ed.D., Mindy Holohan, MA, CFLE, Jean Rogers, M.S.Ed, CPE

"…a big misunderstanding is that young children can learn from screens."

~Pat Cantor, Ed.D. ﻿

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway(s!)

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Show Transcript

S15 Episode 8: Online Harms Prevention Kit // Julianna Arnold & Dawn Wible

"…the laws that are currently on the books are not adequate to meet the challenges (of protecting kids against online harms)."

~Julianna Arnold

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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S15 Episode 7: Online Harms and Prevention Group at Fairplay // Julianna Arnold

"These companies knew the harm that their platforms were causing, but intentionally designed them to be addictive so they could increase their viewership among young users."

~Julianna Arnold

Resources ﻿

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S15 Episode 6: Healthy Screen Habits Workbook for Teens and Tweens // Amy Adams LSCW/PPSC & Jeanne Sprague M.Ed

"We want kids to live their best lives with technology. This is a driver’s education handbook for their phone (so they can do that)."

-Amy Adams, LCSW, PPSC & Jeannie Ondelacy Sprague, M.Ed

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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S15 Episode 5: Digital Balance: Overcome Phone Overuse Today // Eli Singer

"…digital balance means something different for everybody."

~ Eli Singer

Resources

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S15 Episode 4: How to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World // Frank Possemato

"More is less."

~Frank Possemato

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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Season 15 Episode 3: How Families Can Beat the Algorithm: Screen Time Without Blame // Dr. Sajita Seita

"Name it.

Move it.

Time it."

~Dr. Sajita Setia

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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S15 Episode 2: Beyond Screens: Healing Teens Through Connection // Kellyn Smythe

"After a few weeks,(of no technology) we see a huge restoration in terms of their sleep. Creativity goes through the roof…..(ultimately there is a)...sense of feeling more and more connected."

~Kellyn Smythe

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S15 Episode 1: Don’t Make Rules - Make Conversations: Raising Cyber-Smart Kids // Kae David and Chad Rychlewski

“We highly recommend (obtaining) a VPN. It makes sure that unwanted eyes aren’t monitoring your activity or….capturing information.”

~ Kae David

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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Season 15 Teaser: From First Screens to Crisis Moments

S14 Episode 15: Man Up: The New Misogyny and the Rise of Violent Extremism // Cynthia Miller-Idriss, PhD

The biggest predictor of support for political violence is sexism.

~Cythia Miller-Idriss, PhD ﻿

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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S14 Episode 14: When Fun Becomes Too Much: Talking About Gaming With Your Child // Jennifer Jiyun Park, PhD

"Both online and offline games can have … gambling-specific addictive features."

~Jennifer Jiyun Park

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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S14 Episode 13: Grandma Got Scammed

"Happy Thanksgiving!"

~The HSH Team

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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S14 Episode 12: How Online Lies Become Offline Harm - And How We Fix It // Imran Ahmed

"7 out of 10 American teens use chatbots….more than half of them use them as a companion."

~Imran Ahmed

~Pat Cantor, Ed.D.

Resources

~Cythia Miller-Idriss, PhD

~Avriel Epps, PhD

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Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

~ Tim Estes, CEO AngelQ