Hillary Wilkinson: (00:40)

By now, we are all aware of the adolescent social media addiction crisis We hear week after week about how this unprecedented uninformed experiment we're partaking in is rewiring brains causing serious mental health issues and negatively impacting sleep. At the end of last year, Australia took the bold step in banning social media for kids until age 16. But what comes next when the likes and the shares are set aside and social media withdrawal sets in? What do we do? And this is where my guest today comes in. He is an expert at helping youth transition from living on devices to connecting with the physical world. Since 2014, he has worked at Pacific Quest, a fully licensed and accredited residential mental healthcare establishment on the island of Hawaii. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Kellen Smythe!

Kellyn Smythe : (01:47)

Aloha, Hillary. Nice to meet you,

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:50)

Kellyn, for most of us, we hear Hawaii and we picture vacation , right? Yeah. But Pacific Quest is a residential treatment center. And can you just give us a, we're not gonna spend our whole time on this, but can you explain what Pacific Quest is and what you guys do?

Kellyn Smythe : (02:09)

Yeah. So Pacific Quest is a residential treatment program, um, and in the, the constellation of resources that are out there for youth as well as adults, um, there's a few different levels of care that might be helpful to understand. So the, the very first, and something that I think is a little bit newer in the landscape of mental health resources, uh, is what we call mentoring or coaching. Um, these are generally in the community. They're getting kids out and engaged in activities, and those can be really powerful because they're, they're very much active. Uh, they're, they're not therapeutic. Thing to be mindful about in that space is just that there's not really a licensing process. There's not a lot of oversight in that world. So just be really thoughtful. Um, when it comes to mentoring or coaching resources, the next layer is what we're probably all familiar with when it comes to, uh, therapy, if you will.

Kellyn Smythe : (02:57)

Um, and that's outpatient therapy or psychiatry. Uh, that's where you go meet with your provider. Um, increasingly these days, those tend to be virtual connections. Uh, as providers realize it's much more cost efficient to not have an office 'cause they don't need one. Um, but those are the, those are the resources where you go in, you meet once a week, you have sort of a longstanding relationship with those folks that might last years. Um, and that can be a really great resource for folks as well. The next layer. So that's, that's where most people I think are familiar with. The next layer beyond our kind of outpatient resources is what we would call IOP or intensive outpatient resource. Um, those tend to be kind of short term, six to eight weeks, uh, and usually about three hours a day. So usually after school for kids, they go, they do group individual work can be really valuable.

Kellyn Smythe : (03:42)

Um, there's another layer up, which is what's called a PHP or partial hospitalization. And that is just more hours. So it's like IOP plus. So usually, uh, six hours a day. And, uh, and that is also about six to eight weeks. Um, another kind of more intensive resource. All of these are community-based. So you live at home, you come home, you have dinner at home, all of those things. And for, again, for many, many families, engaging those kind of resources really help shift things in a positive direction. If it's not, then that next layer of care is where we come in, in our space. It's at a residential treatment experience. Um, but typically it's referred to as a RTC, and that typically lands between 30 and 90 days. Uh, for us it's very consistently closer to 90 days. We're a little longer term, uh, residential treatment experience.

Kellyn Smythe : (04:35)

And there you'd be living with, that's the residential part of it. You're living with, uh, the program. They're caring for you 24/7 providing food, housing, and hopefully some really immersive experiences. Beyond that is the, the sort of acute care setting. And that's where someone's in the throes of a, a significant mental health crisis. They're in a hospital. Um, and that's an acute care. Those are very short term, usually just a few days. They're not really providing treatment. They're providing safety mm-hmm . Um, so at Pacific Quest, we fall into that residential treatment space. Um, and our big thing here is really focusing on the idea that no one's ever been talked out of a mental health crisis. Uh, I've never, uh, I've never met a kid that I could trick out of their depression or anxiety. Mm-hmm . Um, therapy really just provides this opportunity to reflect on and learn about the experiences of our life and emotions and relationships.

Kellyn Smythe : (05:31)

But it's not by nature therapeutic. And the same can be said about psychiatric medications. While medications can be an important part, and they are for a lot of our, our clients, uh, a part of their mental health treatment process, there's not a pill for autism or adoption or trauma. Um, and so what we've discovered, and I think it's it's fairly intuitive, is that only experiences, specifically experiences in relationship are what really unwind these negative patterns. And so if, if, if we were to ask you or any other parent out there, if we reflect on a moment in our lives that we feel proud of or that really kind of changed things in a meaningful way for us, it's never this one time on Zoom therapy , right? It's always these kind of big moments where we are connected with a partner or with a loved one, or with nature.

Kellyn Smythe : (06:22)

Often they're in nature. Um, I mean, for me it's, you know, the birth of my kids. It's when I was a kid. And, you know, traveling in the Himalayas, it's, you know, a first kiss with a romantic partner. It's, you know, those moments that are sort of unscripted and you know, you're connected to something else. And so at Pacific Quest, we really try to leverage that by utilizing therapies, all kinds of different, uh, integrative, uh, interventions, medication management, nutrition, um, but really focusing on this idea that we can be in nature and experience those transformative moments.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:54)

Thank you so much for giving us that whole strata of breakdown of the different levels.  Cause I think, you know, depending on what crisis you're dealing with, I mean, I think it's helpful to hear all of the, the different layers. So thank you. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. I like, can we touch just a minute on, um, some of the experiences that you guys offer? I mean, being in Hawaii, you certainly have a specific, you know, pocket of the world in which to Yeah. In which to foster. Some of these cool things are. What are some of your favorites?

Kellyn Smythe : (07:31)

Yeah, for sure. So our, our program is based on the water. Actually, we're right on the ocean on the Hilo side of the big island. Um, which means that, you know, they've got this five acres of garden space on the ocean. We go paddle boarding, swimming, snorkeling, and kayaking. It's whale season, uh, in Hawaii right now, which means there's baby whales jumping out in front of the, the campus. There's a mild infestation of sea turtles, which is pretty fun. And again, you know, for us it's this great thing where our kids, again, get all the, they get all the therapeutic interventions you expect the group therapy and family therapy and all of those components, but they're doing it while they're on a paddle board or on a double hulled canoe, or sitting on a beach, or if we're lucky, the, the volcano's really active. Um, and they're, you know, they can be out at night watching these 2000 foot fountains of lava shoot out while they're with a peer. And it can be really transformative.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:21)

It sounds like it. What type of role do you see technology playing and a reason why some of the residents that are coming to Pacific Quest need to come for a stay?

Kellyn Smythe : (08:33)

You know, I thought about this a little bit, and certainly over the years we've seen a handful of cases where technology is that it's that genesis of the distress. Like it's the thing that started all of it, you know, that can be online bullying, that can be, um, being a victim of a, a, a digital crime. Those kinds of things do come up. It's, it's pretty rare though. Being a teenager is sort of like, it's like a little dumpster fire. Like it's always a mess , right? For all of us. And what technology tends to do, social media specifically, is it's sort of an accelerant. It's like gasoline. And so what we see is that technology has this capacity to exacerbate the existing patterns, which can be really positive, right? For, so for many of us where, you know, we're on a, a sports team or we're, you know, part of a community and we're organizing something, it's this great vehicle to make those connections even deeper, right? Mm-hmm . But for a lot of our youth, maybe who are neurodiverse or maybe they have had some important developmental experiences that been missed, and I, I'd just like to stress this part. That's pretty much every kid right now because we had COVID and mm-hmm . That's two and a half years of social emotional development that just got deleted. Or maybe they've had some ACEs in their early childhood, right? Those kids are just at a higher risk. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:46)

Just so in case people don't, don't know the acronym.

Kellyn Smythe : (09:50)

Yeah. So ACE is an adverse childhood event. Uh, and that's, those would be those traumas that can, um, can unfortunately, you know, significantly inform how kids experience, uh, later life. But all that is to say that those, those kind of initial factors can, can lead to this scenario where now technology starts to accelerate that. So we have someone who's maybe just has a low sense of self-worth and self-esteem, or they have a, a loose sense of connection to their family or their peers, and now tech and now social media just sort of accelerates that. Um, that's generally what we see in our, our space.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:22)

Yeah. So I think that, that you, um, kind of pulled out the word connection is very interesting to me because that is my greatest concern going forward with the AI tech that we're seeing. The AI technology is, um, you know, it's kind of hijacking a lot of connections. So we've seen some of it with social media. I think it's well known that, you know, it was an attention economy that they were going after. I'm very concerned about the attachment economy. When you are at Pacific Quest, do you allow cell phones?

Kellyn Smythe : (11:03)

Oh, goodness. Uh, no. This is probably one of the biggest sticking points, uh, for a lot of the youth who are coming to PQ, is that we don't allow them to have their cell phones. Um, and while we do a movie night, you know, once or twice in a week, that's about the extent of their interface with screens. Um, we really try to take a solid break from technology, and it's sort of obvious, right? We'd wanna do that. Uh, but it's also one of the sticking points, and it's, it's pretty challenging. It is also so incredibly transformative and diagnostic, right? Mm-hmm. You know, we have these youth who come to us, and I wouldn't say they're like in a crisis, but they're definitely stuck. And it's sometimes really tricky to kind of untangle like, what part of this is a learning style, or what part of this is your, you know, your childhood experiences or what part of this is, um, just kind of your own organic, you know, divergence and, and who are, who are you, right?

Kellyn Smythe : (11:52)

And technology just muddles all of that. So if we get it outta the equation, not only do we get just better understanding of what's really going on, but it allows us to just deepen those connections that really matter. And a lot of times it's with their family. So this is the fun part, right? Is we, we take their phone away, which means you can't call mom, you know, whenever you want to, or you can't text your friend whenever you want to. And yet, by the end of, you know, about a 90 day experience, our youth report feeling better connected, better to connected to themselves, to their families, to the world around them. I think one of the essential elements of the program is just getting a break from technology.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:30)

Mm. Are there any kind of like classic tech detox or withdrawal symptoms that you see?

Kellyn Smythe : (12:37)

Oh, yeah. So, I mean, the very first of which is just ridiculous boredom. I mean, it, it, uh, and it, and it makes sense again, right? If you've been spending any significant part of your day being entertained by, uh, a machine that does that process for you, you are just bored. And, and our students definitely are, I would say many of 'em also experience an increase in their anxiety initially. Um, and which is a little paradoxical, right? You know, we, our our kids come to us often because they're experiencing so much anxiety, and then we take their phone away and then their anxiety goes up diagnostically. We see that as that was there to start with. And that technology, that, uh, social media, whatever those devices are, they're, they're really just kind of, um, a short term solution to the longer term pattern. Poor sleep is the next one.

Kellyn Smythe : (13:20)

Most all of our youth are using screens or some kind of tech as they go to bed. It's, it's integrated into their bedrooms. Um, and so initially, I mean, their, their sleep is very disrupted. Um, and then a whole lot of irritability, um, they're pretty grumpy. Yeah. Um, you know, which sort of makes sense. All that is to say that after a few weeks, we see a huge restoration in terms of their sleep. Creativity goes through the roof. We see kids like start picking up musical instruments again, picking up art, picking up writing, uh, poetry, all kinds of things. They make ridiculous, goofy games together, right? It, it just opens the door for them to really tap into that creativity. 'cause boredom is the seed of creativity. Um, and then again, that, that sense of just feeling more and more connected

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:08)

When we come back, I'm gonna ask Kellyn more about the role that tech is playing in connection today.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Kellen Smythe, the admissions director of Pacific Quest, a residential program that helps adolescents and young adults boost their self-esteem, heal traumas, and get to the root of what is holding them back. So, Kellyn, there's a lot, a lot, of talk today about our young men in crisis, and I'm curious, is this something that you see reflected in the residents at Pacific Quest? I mean, do you have stats on, on young men to young women ratios coming to your place?

Kellyn Smythe : (15:41)

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. Yes and no is the, the short answer. Mm-hmm . Uh, the, the, it is abundantly clear. There's, there's so much data that supports this. Our, our, our boys are seriously being impacted by technology and some extremely toxic influences online. Uh, I, I'm raising boys myself, and so I'm especially attuned to this. Um, and I think we just cannot underestimate the importance of addressing that because for better or for worse, how boys respond to that has this outsized impact on society at large. Um, we see that through just so many different vehicles. Boys, however, are sort of conditioned, socially trained to internalize their emotions and externalize their behaviors. Uh, our girls, however, and this is not just during technology or COVID sure, has been a longstanding pattern for us. Our girls are, are sort of taught the opposite, the inverse of that, which is to, to externalize their emotions and internalize their behaviors.

Kellyn Smythe : (16:46)

Now, Pacific Quest tends to focus on, uh, if anything, kind of an absence of behavior. Most of our clients are pretty internalized in their behavior patterns. When there are behaviors, they tend to be limited to the home. Um, and we see kind of this externalizing of emotions. Um, and so for that reason, our scope of care is a bit more aligned with the way that our girls are struggling. We generally are kinda about 50/50 gender split, but if there is a gender split, it tends to be a little heavier on the female side. Uh, and that's just interesting because of the nature of our scope of care. Mm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:20)

Uh, and that you deal with a lot of social media stuff.

Kellyn Smythe : (17:25)

Lot of social media stuff.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:25)

But if I had to draw a gender line, it'd be, you know, girls are more adversely affected by social media boys. It's video gaming and, you know, everybody gets adversely hit by porn. So

Kellyn Smythe : (17:39)

Yeah, that's the, that's the one we're seeing more and more of is the, uh, explicit content is, and, and the algorithm driven explicit content is very different than how boys used to experience. And, and now, uh, females as well. Um, how they used to experience, uh, pornography. And that is, I think, pretty profoundly influencing their experience of gender identity, sexual identity, um, and just safety in relationships in general. Very few of our clients are actually kind of taking the, their traditional, um, sexual risks and exploration that we would expect in their teen years.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:13)

Yeah, I agree with you. And in fact, many of them aren't dating at all. Many of them are just stepping out.

Kellyn Smythe : (18:21) Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:22)

Yeah. So in November, you were featured in Parents magazine. Oh, for an article. For an article on screen addiction. You encouraged parents to look out for a few things if they were concerned about screen overuse. Do you have some red flag type things?

Kellyn Smythe : (18:42)

For sure. Yeah. I'm a bit of a biased data source 'cause I'm working with families who are in a tough spot, right? We've got to a place where, um, things aren't really going well. So, you know, for the vast majority of your listeners, it's, it, these aren't probably things that are coming up, but if they are, I'd say these are pretty consistent with the things I get to see. Um, and one of the first ones, it's a, that's a big red flag for me is avoiding in-person experiences, right? So, um, especially as kids kind of develop into their elementary, early teen and late teen years, uh, they should be seeking connected experiences outside the home with lots of different peers and all kinds of stuff. Um, and so if screen increase in screen time is correlated with a decrease in seeking out those kind of in-person experiences, that's a, that's a red flag.

Kellyn Smythe : (19:33)

We want to be thoughtful about that. The next one, and this is sort of often connected to that, I would say, is this need for using screens to regulate our emotions or their emotions. And it can start really early, right? It can be that thing where it's like, well, can't go to the restaurant unless we have the iPad as if we progress. It can get to this place where it's like, well, if I don't have my phone, they're like, I can't go on that adventure. I'm not gonna go on my that adventure 'cause I'm too dysregulated. I just need to be, you know, in my room. So if we start seeing technology being used as a vehicle to regulate, that's another red flag.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:07)

I can't overemphasize that. And where we see it happening is in early childhood development, when it's the quickest way to stop a tantrum. And I just, I encourage people to embrace the tense, be uncomfortable. It's okay, you know? Yeah. Sit, sit with the discomfort of your child and get them through it and just be steady, but don't hand them a device to, to get them to distract out of their emotions.

Kellyn Smythe : (20:35)

You know, I'm a parent as well, I've got two young boys, and they definitely have their moments of absolute dysregulation as do I. And it's so compelling to just be like, here's a screen, just chill out for a second, second. And I think the longer obviously that we lean into that as a resource, the more it becomes their only resource and mm-hmm . Um, and that's the, that's the big concern. I'd say the other, the other things are, um, if we're seeing it, you know, school absence, uh, increases in anxiety, depression, changes in weight, wellbeing, sleep, activity level, um, those are more physiological representations of being overly immersed into technology. Um, and then big, big outbursts around boundaries with screen time. So it's like, “Hey, it's time to turn the TV off” and you get this oversized, you know, uh, response. And then, you know, as we get into those later teen years, it's the avoidance of those typical pro-social milestones. So, you know, getting the driver's license going on a date, I mean, I'm just gonna say it like sneaking outta the house, doing the, the typical little risky things that make you as a parent, like grit your teeth a little bit. Um, those are really, really important from a developmental standpoint. And if we're not seeing that, um, but we're, we're probably missing out on some important developmental experiences.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:47)

Thank you. So you've mentioned that you have boys a couple of times. I'm just wondering if we can take a peek inside the walls of your house. What type of family rules do you guys have around screens?

Kellyn Smythe : (21:58)

We are not a, a screen absent house, so we, we haven't gone fully, you know, off the grid, but we do limit time. So it's, it's about an hour a day is the, the maximum screen time and it's, uh, it's earned. So, um, got some basic chores, you know, it's feeding the dog, putting your backpack away, uh, clean your room, make your bed, do the, the very basics. Um, then give it an hour a day. Um, those are on during the week if, if they've earned those things, it's some kind of educational program, not geo those kinds of things. Um, and then on the weekend they can watch regular cartoons for an hour. The, the big ones that I'd say for us are, there's no personal screens. No one has an iPad, right? Um, there's certainly no screens in the room. And then we are more and more inclined to this idea of let's just get away from anything that's algorithm driven.

Kellyn Smythe : (22:47)

So I want either myself, my wife or my kids to choose this is what we're gonna engage in rather than having a machine decide based on where it thinks my attention should be focused. Um, so we avoid things like YouTube or obviously social media. My boys are a little bit too young to engage in that. I'm also just gonna throw this out there. This is, um, my son's in a, a dual immersion language program here. Um, and what that means is that he gets to go through, um, basically kindergarten all the way into high school with the same cohort of kids. There's all kinds of wonderful benefits of this, but the thing I didn't think of until recently is that all of these kids go together, which means all their parents go together, which means we know all the parents mm-hmm . And we've all already have these conversations around tech use. And so we get to have this kind of community decision where we're sort of normalizing like, yeah, no one's getting a smartphone until you're 16, right? Um, so that's not necessarily an in-home rule, but it's something we're trying to leverage within the community. And we're, you know, sort of fortunate in that we get this nice collection of parents to be able to do that with

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:53)

Building of community that has a shared interest is so critical for your overall success of tech management. I mean, my hat's off to you that you've been able to do it. I

Kellyn Smythe : (24:07)

Would, I would say that's lucky , just given our circumstances.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:11)

Well and intentional, because you, you very definitely sought out that type of educational experience for your boys. It's, you know, there was a lot of plan in that.

Kellyn Smythe : (24:21)

I, I'm gonna give credit to my wife on that one. She's

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:24)

. Yeah, no, I can tell you that the basis of healthy screen habits was, we were that crew that you, that you're talking about, where it was like-minded moms that came together and said, Hey, we are not happy with the way we are seeing screens, you know, kind of take over, infiltrate our family life and let's, let's see what we can all agree upon together. And, you know, at this point, uh, the, the those or those original levels of kids are now in their early twenties and young adults and doing their own thing. But it was, um, it was very well worth the ride .

Kellyn Smythe : (25:04)

Oh, for sure. For sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:06)

When we come back, I'm gonna ask Kelen Smy for his healthy screen habit.

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At what age should I give my child a smartphone? How much screen time should I allow each day? What are the best filters to use on my family's devices? Sound familiar? These questions and more are answered at the Healthy Screen Habits website. We've curated the best articles, books, videos, and many other resources to help you figure out how you want to use technology in your life. Click on the awareness section to learn about the issues and dangerous surrounding screen use. Then click on the tools page to download principles you can use with your family today, including the Healthy Screen Habits Family Technology Plan. Visit our website at www.healthyscreenhabits.org for the resources and tools you need to get started.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:01)

I'm speaking with Kellen Smy, the admissions Director for Pacific Quest, which is a residential treatment center in Hawaii that works to build resilience and equip residents with the real world tools they need to thrive. So Kellen, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Kellyn Smythe : (26:30)

Alright, so, uh, this is when we actually regularly do as much as I am deeply concerned and anxious and, uh, thoughtful about, you know, technology use in our house. We also still use technology, which means we have social media and we do all the things that, you know, uh, many families do. Um, but at the same time, one of the things that's been really helpful for us to just kind of check in on this is practicing these kind of two week periods of, uh, social media sobriety. Sometimes it turns into a month, sometimes it turns into a whole summer. We just did a whole summer of it. Um, and it's really, really profound. So, uh, my, my tip or trick or challenge, if you will, would just be, just take a two week break. Um, you can do more, but two weeks I think is the minimum for you to really kind of notice what's different.

Kellyn Smythe : (27:17)

And I, I would say get the whole family involved, right? Everybody takes a quick break, um, and let's see what comes up. Um, let's talk about it. Let's, you know, bring it up, let's explore it. And then when it comes back, if you decide to bring it back, what comes up then what's different? Um, for me, I can say that when you turn it back on, you haven't had it on for let's say, you know, for a summer. Uh, and there's a billion notifications. It's really overwhelming. , it feels like a job. Um, and so I think, you know, each of you guys might have a different experience of what it looks like to, to take a little break from it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:52)

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Just kinda like prune the flow for a bit, especially with everything going on with all the political stuff and everything of today, I've found that it really affects my mood. So I, oh,

Kellyn Smythe : (28:07)

I hate people a lot less when when I'm not watching 'em online. I like people a lot more when I'm spending time with 'em. . Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:15)

And you're a people guy , so

Kellyn Smythe : (28:18)

I know. Yeah, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:20)

Okay. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to more info about Pacific Quest. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Kellen, thank you so much for being here, for talking a little bit about that, like the whole mental health side of where, you know, different options that people can take when they find themselves needing extra help, as well as what's, what's working for you in your life.

Kellyn Smythe : (28:55)

Of course. Thank you Hilary so much. I really appreciate it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:00)

For more information, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Healthy Screen Habits. Make sure to visit our website healthy screen habits.org, where you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. It's free, it's fun, and you get a healthy new screen habit each week. While you're at it, if you found value in this show, we'd appreciate you giving us a quick rating. It really does help other people find us and spread the word of healthy screen habits. Or if you'd simply like to tell a friend, we'd love that too. I so appreciate you spending your time with me this week, and I look forward to learning more healthy habits together.