S2 Episode 8: Taking Action On Healthy Screen Parenting // Jean Rogers of Children’s Screen Time Action Network

"(I want) parents to understand that they can't get time back. That so much time is being taken from their child's youth... from their child's childhood."

- Jean Rogers

Healthy Screen Habit Takeaway

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Child development and technology expert, Jean Rogers, bring sanity, humor and calmness to the sometimes not so calm conversations surrounding parenting and technology. As the director of the Children's Screen Time Action Network. Jean helps schools, corporations, communities, and families achieve balanced with technology. I'm lucky enough to get a chance to chat with her today. And I cannot wait to introduce you to Jean Rogers. Thank you for being on the healthy screen habits podcast.

Jean Rogers: (00:41)

Thank you so much for having me, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:43)

So Jean, you have been and kind of continue to be this like guiding light for parents and educators and professionals, uh, seeking tools and research and wisdom around the impact of screens in our kids. Could you share a little bit about what brought you to recognize that media was targeting children and just kinda like want to know what, what made you step into this arena?

Jean Rogers: (01:16)

Oh, thank you. I love sort of sharing this journey because it's, um, it's one that I think a lot of parents can identify with. So my early career was in advertising actually on the dark side, I was a copywriter. Um, I did a lot of other writings, speech writing some journalism, but my main bread and butter work was advertising. And then as I had my own children, I have three and then I have two wonderful step-children. So I have five children. Um, as I started having my own children, I realized I wanted to use my skills for good and making people buy things that they didn't need.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:57)

See? You are A superhero!

Jean Rogers: (02:00)

Well, it's sort of that awareness you've come to. Um, I saw how maybe it was shaping my kids and how I had to intervene all the time. And I thought, you know, um, there has to be some system for this. And so I wrote a book at the time, just being a writer as a natural thing to do, um, kids under fire to just help parents to get a methodology that was simple, usable for, um, sort of daily media conflicts, that those screen-time conflicts that they would have with their kids. And, um, I began giving workshops and then I decided to go back to school when my kids started in college. So we were four of us in school at the same time, at one point, um, because I wanted to understand child development. How was it really? I knew in my gut how I thought it was affecting my kids, but how was it really impacting how they grow?

Jean Rogers: (02:53)

And, um, then I wanted to get a degree in parenting education. So I'm a certified parent educator because I knew that I didn't like some of the messages coming at me that made me feel guilty. That made me feel shame and made me feel like I had to sort of compete with my neighbors or my friends about what we did around screen time. And so I wanted to take a really different approach and understand how do we educate parents without shaming them, making them feel guilty. And then I came to work at what was then campaign for commercial-free childhood in 2016. And Josh golden, our executive director said, I think we need to start a national network. And, um, kind of the rest is history. We'll talk a little bit about the network later, but now I'm just honored to be the director of the children's time action network, where the professionals and the parents can come to the table together and parents can have access to the professionals to give them really all the, all that they need and, and keep it simple.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:58)

And is such an amazing resource. I, I feel that way, even in this kind of realm of screen education and as a parent as well. It totally makes sense to me that, that that was the path that you took because I, I feel like a lot of things that maybe as like moms, we kind of know in our gut, I feel like the conversations that we have had at the Action Network, just like it gives you the science to stand on. Why, why you feel that way. You know, I mean, it just, it's very validating. I can't, I can't thank you enough for the work that you do there

Jean Rogers: (04:40)

Thanks Hillary and you too, I mean, with healthy screen habits and the way you present with brain development, that's so critical, that's the foundation of everything. And so, you know, we really appreciate having you as well. Thank you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:53)

Okay. So you mentioned this book and you kind of glossed over it, but I think it is genius. So I kind of want to spend a little bit more time on it if you're okay with that. And so the book is called Kids Under Fire, but then the subtitle is seven simple steps to combat the media attack on your child. So would you be, I, you don't have to share all seven. You don't have to like show us the whole entree, but I'm wondering if you could give us just a little appetizer and also by the way, I will link the book in our, in the show notes to this episode. So people can buy the whole entree if they're interested.

Jean Rogers: (05:32)

Fantastic. Well, thanks. So Hillary for asking more about the book, it was published in 2010. So there are things about it that, you know, I wrote it so that it would be timeless, but we don't address, you know, babies holding cell phones. For instance, we don't address iPad use because it wasn't, uh, as prominent at that time. But we did offer a methodology that would be simple that parents could use. Um, and it's funny, there's a funny little story about the title, which is the, I want it to be called How To Have A Tranquil Home. And my editors said, oh, well, that won't sell. You need to make it really drastic for parents. You need them to understand. So, but really the outcome that we want is we want to be able to connect with our children authentically. We want to be able to have a home where we're not feeling that we're being our parenting is being invaded by corporate tech.

Jean Rogers: (06:36)

And so that was sort of the foundation of the book. And just like you would detox your kids for junk food from junk food, for example, um, maybe after you've been doing too much of it, the philosophy is the earlier you start the better and that kids can understand very, very basic media literacy at a young age.  And so really the key and sort of the pivotal offering of the book is called the kids media diet, litmus test. Just four simple questions that you put on your fridge. Uh, the first one is, is it stupid?

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:15)

I like how you use kid language. So it's very relatable. 

Jean Rogers: (07:18)

I will explain. I'll just say the four questions are, is it stupid? Is it violent? Does it add value to our lives? And would we invite these people to dinner? And I'll just explain, you know, stupid is kind of a ridiculous word to use, but it helps us understand is whatever the content my kids are watching or playing, dumbing down, what they could be understanding at this age in their life? Is it, um, teaching them to be rude? Is it plotless, is it commercialized content? These are like empty calories. These are like those empty calories that you don't want them to be consuming because it's going to affect their health adversely. So then, um, you know, their personalities, their habits will be shaped by it. Is it violent? You know, it really stands by itself. Um, kids can be traumatized by violent media when they don't live in a home with trauma.

Jean Rogers: (08:28)

Does it add value to our lives? There's plenty of great screen time that adds value: Discovery Channel, PBS, PBS kids, classic films, Olympics that we just experienced over the summer. So, um, it's always good to just say, is this adding value? It's kind of a easy question. And then, uh, we added this last question. Would we invite these people to dinner because it's something the kids can understand also, and we're not talking about, you know, with the occasional bad guy or the villain we're talking about in general, are the characters here. People that I want my kids to mimic, because we know a big part of child development is mimicking. Um, and they, they want to copy and they want to be like the characters that they admire. So you want to make sure that those characters are of value to them. And, and the book talks a little bit about fear. It talks about marketing, which is a huge issue, marketing to children and how it's really baked into everything they do online now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:33)

Yes. And I, um, I want to circle back to where you talked about, um, does it add value? Do you have any resources that you recommend for any parents who might want to have, a reference where they can say like, oh, we want to have a family movie night say Friday night, is there, do you have any place where you recommend where there might be lists of movies or anything along those lines?

Jean Rogers: (10:01)

Parents television and media council now, um, have good reviews and we have some other resources in our resource library at the children's screen-time action network. And that URL just for parents is Screentime network.org. I'm sure you're going to share that

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:50)

100% and I'll also, I'll put that in the show notes as well. When we come back, I'd like to hear more about what we, as parents can be doing to promote this concept of digital wellness.

(11:06)

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Hillary Wilkinson:

Jean Rogers is a parenting expert and host of a popular webinars series called Action Network Live, where she interviews many experts on topics related to kids' technology. Jean you've shared your belief that digital wellness in childhood translates to a healthy, responsible, successful adulthood. So this sounds fantastic. I'd say the goal of every parent is to raise a healthy, responsible, and successful adult by whatever that definition of success is in their life. Um, can you talk about what digital wellness in childhood looks like today?

Jean Rogers: (14:28)

Yes, I'd love to. So a rule of thumb, I tell parents of young children is the younger, the child, the lower the screen time. You'll see all kinds of different information about "how many hours are right." And you know," how many hours for what age" or right. American academy of pediatrics says no screens under 18 months, except video chatting with relatives. And they've done studies that show that video chatting with relatives is different. That kids actually understand, even babies understand the difference between grandpa and a character like say Mr. Rogers or someone that they understand that that's somebody who is connected with them in some way. So that would be under the category of, you know, fine screen time connecting with relatives that connecting with parents who were on business trips or in the military. Um, very good, but very, very little for young children because they experienced the world through their senses. And that's how they learn. They also learn language by you talking to them, not by a screen. And we're very deceived by, you know, we're being duped by big tech marketing that says you need ABC mouse. You need, you know, all these kinds of things to teach your kids when what they need is just for you to talk to them. They need you to respond.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:56)

The eye contact and the, the whole method of communication, not just sound production of language.

Jean Rogers: (16:04)

Absolutely. We were in the park the other day for on the holiday and just heard this dead mimicking the sounds of his child is not, the child is going, "eh eh eh". The father would go right back, "eh eh eh" and that's what they need. That's they need that affirmation. They need that to feel safe. They need that to feel as though somebody is they're listening to me, it's really important. Um, but as kids get older, it's important to let them have some, I think, I mean, I've kind of come a long way on that. There are parents that choose not to, and that's fantastic too, not to have any screens, but we all know that there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of wonderful things about it too. So, you know, gradually adding it as the kids get older, talking to them about it and understanding what they're exposed to, what they're watching, using those parental controls, it's going to be really important.

Jean Rogers: (16:59)

And what's even more important than the parental controls is the conversations about it. It's a part of their world. So just like you'd talk to them about their friends and want to understand what kind of friends they have and who they're hanging out with. You want to know who they're hanging out with online as well. So having those conversations is really important. And then when they get to be teens. This is where it gets kind of hairy, isn't it? So what I recommend is making sure that there are other adults in their lives that share your screen time values. So teens are getting to that point where developmentally, they want to detach from you. They want to be independent and they don't want to talk to you about what they're doing online, it's personal, it's private, but if they have a trusted coach, a faith leader, youth group leader, maybe, um, a aunt or uncle, a neighbor that they really like. Just have a chat with that other adults about these are our screen values. And could you reinforce those when you're talking to my son or daughter? So, um,

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:06)

So they're hearing the same message just from a different, a different avenue or different voice and

Jean Rogers: (18:15)

I call it kind of padding their world. Like you can start thinking about it when they're in their early teens and then that way those people are influencing when you're no longer cool.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:27)

You're very cool. Jean you will never not be cool. Well, I'm biased. Um, just to go back to what you were talking about, kind of that second step was you, you referenced who they're hanging out with online. When you say that, I think you're probably referring to like characters on a show. You're not actually talking about kids being online and communicating with other people, or am I, am I wrong in understanding that?

Jean Rogers: (18:58)

Yeah. Thank you. That's a really good question, Hillary. I think what I mean is both. Actually. So if you look at the first one, you know, what kind of characters that's probably more, um, dis that more describes what younger children are doing online is watching YouTube videos or doing games with their favorite characters. Um, we want to be careful that those games aren't manipulating them too. So it's important to understand a little bit more about that. We have a lot of information about that at the Action Network, which is what we call it for short. Um, and, um, but as they get older, they're doing less of that kind of screen content and more of connecting with people online and we want to avoid, um, or help them to avoid anything that could be construed as cyber bullying, um, any kind of social pressure that they might feel to look a certain way to act a certain way to be thin enough to be, you know, uh, look a certain way. I think, you know, you know, those kinds of things are what we're watching for as they get older.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:05)

So we're, we're looking at kind of micro level, you know, we're looking at individual families and personal relationships with tech. I kind of would like to like bring us out a bit and get more of a 50,000 foot view at this macro level of this concept of a healthy media environment. And I'm kind of, do you have any suggestions about what, what needs to happen to support these movements that people are? I feel like even in the time that I have been working with healthy screen habits, parents are much more informed about the effects of technology on a young child's brain and we all know that world change starts within the home. And I feel like a lot of people I know they're wanting to know what can I do more? Like, how do I support the bigger, the bigger ball that's rolling? And so I'm kind of wondering if you have any tips for that?

Jean Rogers: (21:26)

I do, uh, that ball is rolling and it keeps rolling very quickly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:30)

It's exciting, exciting and relieving.

Jean Rogers: (21:35)

Yeah. So where I have a lot of hope to share today at the, this is why we started the Children's Screen Time Action Network, because we found that individuals were asking us, um, for example, parents were saying, "we need to raise our kids with other families who feel the same way. Um, so that we don't feel like we're the bad guys or we're the heavy here. And how can we find other parents that are thinking similarly to us?" We also found that there were many initiatives starting on their own, like Wait Until Eighth. Um, Everyschool is one of our great partners, Healthy Screen Habits and, and, um, several and many others. And, but that they needed a home. They needed a place to come together where we weren't all recreating the wheel and where parents could plug into projects that we're doing and support improving the lives of children and families going forward with their own families, their grandchildren, their children's families and families of kids.

Jean Rogers: (22:39)

They know if you're a teacher, you want healthy students. If you're a doctor, you want healthy patients. So we have the experts and the families together at the Action Network. We welcome anyone to join. Uh, we're 1600 plus members globally now, and the benefits are we come together and amplify each other's work. And we work together on projects that are, um, that we couldn't do alone. Let's say, so our Screens in Schools work group, (we have many work groups, several work groups in the Action Network). And our Screens in Schools group created an action kit. So if you're a parent and you're worried about how much screen time your kids are having at school, you might want to speak to your administration, but you might feel timid about it. You might not have all the research at your fingertips, and you also might not have the language to be able to stand up for your positions about it or understand it completely. And the action kit has templates. You can use, um, template letters, language to use with your PTA, with your district, um, and really empowering. So that's just an example of one project that was done when people joined together here at the Action Network. So everyone can start by just checking out the website at Screen-timenetwork.org and just, um, sharing that information with neighbors and other families that you want to share your concerns with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:09)

Right. I love that. Uh, and I it's the, uh, the power, the power of combined work really kind of raises the level of all the people you can reach. So going back to more of a family personal use type screen, look at things. Um, there was a survey released by the Pew Research Center in July of 2020 that said 84% of parents are deeply concerned about the increase in their children's screen time. So this clearly includes the surge in screen use with the pandemic. And two thirds of these parents believe that parenting is harder today than it was 20 years ago. Now I have grandparents that follow the podcast and they're probably thinking, “oh yeah, you think everything's harder”, but the difference being that the parents cited technology specifically as the reason why it's harder. So I just, I feel like you're such an expert in this field. I just, I'm going to ask you this huge question and ask you for a short answer, and it's not fair to do to you. I'm sorry. But what do you wish that parents knew about screen use and children?

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:42)

That's a really big question.

Jean Rogers: (25:45)

It's a great question. And of course I have a long answer, but the short answer is two things, Hillary, that I wish all parents knew: The first is: It's not your fault and it's not the kid's fault. It's the business model that is exploiting our attention and our kids' attention for profit. And so it's a really important, that's a big topic as well. You know, I recommend everybody watch the film, The Social Dilemma. It's not easy to see, but it's really important for raising children in the digital age. Um, but it explains how, you know, these systems work against us. It's really not a fair playing field. And for parents to think it's all about managing it in the home is really not fair. It's important for you to understand that there are forces working against you, but there are also, uh, groups like ours who are working to change that. And you know, in our other work groups, there's legislation beginning, there are people going up against the corporations. Um, so we're doing something about it, but it's important for you to understand that, that it's not the child, um, choosing that it's being that the child is being Lord is being manipulated,

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:03)

Right? That persuasive design, like you said just manipulates. So coming from that place of connection and compassion, I think can go a long way. I love that you brought up the movie, Social Dilemma. It's one of those things that can be a really good talking point with older kids too, to talk about, "oh, let's watch this. How did you feel about it?" So thank you for that recommendation.

Jean Rogers: (28:04)

So the second thing Hillary is for parents to understand that they can't get time back. That so much time is being taken from their child's youth from their child's childhood. So the other day I saw a boy in the grocery store. He was in the car. He couldn't have been even three years old, yet holding a cell phone in the middle of the produce section. So, you know, what's in the produce section. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:32)

So many colors and teachable moments.

Jean Rogers: (28:35)

And I think if parents just knew, kids can be quiet, that they'll build that muscle, they can handle it. We don't need to hand them the cell phone as a pacifier, because we're actually debilitating them by doing that. We're not allowing them to build those skills. And this boy, his eyes were flickering. He almost seemed really nervous and it seemed like he was in a bubble and he wasn't seeing all those interesting things. And all we have to do is point to it, talk to them about it. And so, you know, if your child is younger, it's really important to understand. We can't get that time back. If your child is older, we can absolutely do things to reverse the harmful effects because a lot of us say, oh, I wish I had known that when my kids were younger. Um, but it's just really important to try to avoid those developmental delays.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:30)

And in the produce section, I mean, counting, colors, how to, how to select fresh produce. I mean, those are all life skills that when you find something that has that natural environment for teaching, grab it with both hands because Peppa Pig shopping in the grocery store and, you know, filling the cart by moving your finger does not do the same thing.

Jean Rogers:

 Exactly. 

Hillary Wilkinson:

We’re going to take a short break and when we come back I’m going to ask Jean for her Healthy Screen Habit!

(30:15)

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Hillary Wilkinson: (30:17)

My guest is Jean Rogers, Director of the Children's Screen Time Action Network, which is the leading global coalition of practitioners, educators, advocates, and parents who work to reduce excessive technology, use harming children, adolescents, and families. One of the things that I love about being involved in the Action Network is the practical solutions that get shared by members within work groups or bigger meetings. And now I'm going to ask Jean to do just that! On every episode of the podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into place in their own home. So Jean, do you have one?

Jean Rogers: (31:05)

I do Hillary! When parents ask me what's good screen time and what's bad screen time? My favorite tip to share with them is a concept I called “bridging”. And so that's when we use screen time to get kids off screens. And so for instance, if a child is watching a video that teaches them "how to teach your dog to roll over", then they go teach their dog to roll over. I saw one that showed kids how to whistle with a blade of grass. Um, during the pandemic, many kids learned how to cook. Um, my assistant wanted her kids to learn how to cook and were cooking her dinners during the pandemic!

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:47)

That's fantastic!

Jean Rogers: (31:48)

It's really wonderful. I'm wondering if they were cleaning up too. I don't know. Uh, but that, so, so take a look at that kind of screen time, as opposed to creating your Minecraft server or playing a video game where you're going to want to get to the next level, the next level, the next level. So those are things that are going to keep kids on where basically, you know, watching really interesting YouTube videos that they can then go do, um, you know, watercolor, painting, finger painting, you know, anything that they can take off the screen and then try it. And then they can go back and learn a little bit more, but it's really the provides a good balance and it makes it not like forbidden fruit because you know, they're learning something. And then, then they'll be able to take the risk of trying it themselves.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:39)

I love that concept of bridging, connecting the two worlds. I love that. Well, that's a great tip to use, to both teach, um, use of technology intentionally and share the experience with lots of dialogue and connection like we were talking about - so thank you. I will definitely, as I said, put the link to the Children's Screen Time Action Network in the show notes, as well as a link to your book, Kids Under Fire. Is there anything else you would like to share?  Any last minute words?

Jean Rogers: (33:17)

Just for parents to understand, you know, if you're listening that you're just one person it's not, you're not going to have to do it perfectly, but just creating awareness, listening to this podcast, creating awareness and then bringing it back to your home and then to others, if you'd like to share will be really important.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:37)

Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and teaching us all today in your beautifully calm way that you do Jean.