S13 Episode 6: How To Start Saving the World... Or At Least Your Neighborhood!//Matt Pulley

"The technology we're building and deploying out into the world is not, um, in alignment with what we want as parents for our kids."

-Matt Pulley

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Information:

https://www.fournorms.com/

Book:

The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt

Organization:

Screentime Action Network

https://screentimenetwork.org

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today found himself deeply concerned about the tech industry's impact on children and youth. This perspective shift led him to redirect his entrepreneurial focus towards working with other technologists, parents, and youth to promote the responsible development of technology that benefits society. So he's created space for parents to find one another and work together on this wild ride of digital parenting, and I'm hoping he's gonna help us along the path! Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Matt Pulley.

Matt Pulley: (00:46)

Hi Hillary. Uh, thanks for having me on. Excited to talk with you today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:51)

Matt, you are a dad of two and clearly a guy who loves a challenge. What led you to getting started in this kind of digital wellness pond?

Matt Pulley: (01:07)

Yeah, so my, my background is, is in technology. So I'm a technologist. I've spent my career almost 25 years now, software engineer, turned tech entrepreneur. So I've, I've been a coder, I've developed in large scale systems and then, you know, for the last decade plus, um, been, uh, as an entrepreneur and building, building products and organizations from the ground up. Um, and so that experience, uh, it was a lot of fun. Um, during that 10, those, the last 20 years, um, you know, I've, I've seen our field of technology and, and in particular web and mobile development, um, shift and change.

Matt Pulley: (02:05)

Um, just kind of, uh, fa fast forward to, um, the, a few years ago I was able to take some time off to be a stay at home dad, which was a fantastic experience. I have two daughters. And, um, during that time, I, I challenged myself to just be that dad and kind of put my tech business mind away for a little bit. Um, but what the effect of that was, was thinking a lot about the what, um, the impact that technology is having on society and our kids. As I spent a lot of time, you know, at the playground and with, with other parents, and I, you know, the, those two things come, toge came together, uh, becoming a dad and, you know, taking a little bit of a break from my, my technology background to say, you know, I had this sort of “uh oh moment” where I realized that my field of technologists, um, which I love, and I've, I've spent a lot of great time with a lot of great people.

Matt Pulley: (03:06)

Uh, but, but really felt that the technology we're building and deploying out into the world is not, um, you know, in alignment with what I think is, is, um, what we want as parents for our kids, and especially social media and, and algorithm driven, um, apps like YouTube and even video games. And I, I just sort of had, you know, this thought of, wow, like, um, we, we really need to stop this train pretty quickly. And I wanted to dedicate, uh, I didn't want to exit the tech field, but, but, um, opposite that, I wanted to dedicate the rest of my time to figuring out how we can help solve these problems, both for parents, um, and for, for adults, for kids. And through working with my fellow technologists so that we can, um, be a little bit more, uh, purposeful and deliberate about how we build and deploy, um, apps and, and websites, um, and platforms directed di especially those directed at our kids.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:10)

Well, I like the, I like the thought and intention behind it because that kind of flies in the face of the move fast and break things, you know, which the Silicon Valley creed that we've heard for years. And unfortunately, the things that we're seeing broken are our children. So I appreciate you having that, that alternate view. And you've created this platform called the, called Four Norms. Mm-hmm . And this is based off of Jonathan Haidt’s, introduced concept of instating four norms for childhood and his wildly acclaimed book, The Anxious Generation mm-hmm . And, um, first, right off the bat, I, I see on your website you refer people to Anxious Generation mm-hmm . But I, on their platform, I don't see four norms listed as one of their partnering organizations. So do you work with him or are you independent? Just so we're clear right off the bat.

Matt Pulley: (05:08)

Yeah. In Independent, um, would love to get, you know, on that list, I have a lot of admiration for not only Dr. Haidt, um, and the anxious generation team, but many of the organizations listed on there. Um, I'm the chair of, of the Screens and Schools group at the Screen Time Action Network and Fair Play, which is listed on there. And, you know, clearly, uh, the name, you know, uh, it's pretty clear that that that was the inspiration. Um, and I think what was, you know, not only the inspiration of that work, but what, what I loved about it, there's two things I loved about it, and one of those is that it gave us all this shared language for us to use to talk about this. Mm-hmm . Uh, I know you all have been doing this for a long time, and you, you've been talking about this and, and using probably language, you know, pre-anxious generation about what, you know, the impact it's having on our development of our kids and a healthy childhood.

Matt Pulley: (06:05)

But the idea that the second thing that was, that was really inspiring was that the idea that we don't have to wait for, uh, government to, to pass laws for regulations for mm-hmm . For rules of any type that we have. We do have the power to change the community norms around us at our, at our really hyper-local communities, whether it be just our schools, our towns, and at the state level as well. And I thought that was really inspiring. That's, that felt like something that we could do today. And I think that was the, the purpose of that is to say there's a lot out of our control. Like I said, as with my background technology, I spent a lot of time thinking about what we're doing in the global and, um, and, and how we're, we, technologists are building things, but the thing that we can do in our own communities, in our own homes tomorrow, um, are these, these, uh, um, creating new community norms around us and, and linking up with other people to do the same mm-hmm . And I just thought that was really inspiring to, uh, and in terms of and action that we can do today, tomorrow.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:12)

Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think, um, you know, when KOSA did not get passed, that was the Kids Online Safety Act, which had bipartisan support, but did not get passed at the end of last year, 2024. That honestly, I mean, that, that took me a few days to recover from Matt. I was, I mean, we had worked so hard on that. I feel like everyone in digital wellness just felt like, what? You know, and then, and then it, like I said, it took me a few days and then I, like you, kind of had a whole like aha reframing moment of, no, no, I can't count on the government to put rules into place to raise my children with our values. Like, no, this is actually, grassroots is where this belongs, it's where it's where we have to come together and build communities and support families. And so it really, like I said, it kind of, it was, you know, I kind of had this vision of, you know, when you put like, um, you say like you have a campfire and maybe you like put a bunch of tinder on it and it, the fire dies down for a minute, but then it comes back stronger than ever. So that's what it did for me. Mm-hmm . .

Matt Pulley: (08:34)

So yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, I, the, that local grassroots level, I think is where real change happens. Yeah. And not only, not only the concept of not waiting for that top down, you know, regulation, but, but just getting started at that grassroots level, what you can do in your home, in your community, in your neighborhood, uh, um, I think that's, that's where it's at. I think it's really inspiring.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:56)

Yeah. Yeah. So let's dive into those four norms. Like, can you, can you outline for us, just in the event we've got, I'm sure we've got people who have maybe heard about the book, but they haven't quite read it yet or heard about four norms. But could you dive into the four norms, like what they are and what they look like?

Matt Pulley: (09:16)

Yeah. Uh, broadly, you know, the four new foundational norms, um, are to delay smartphones for our kids till high school, uh, delay social media until 16 or high school, um, phone-free schools. And, you know, the, the idea that personal devices should not be in school, and this, by the way, I think a thing behind that is that, um, that gives parents a way to talk about this. Should your phone, should your school go phone-free? Um, it is a great way for the school to, to use its authority to say, “Hey, these, these things are distracting. It's a distraction for our education and learning.” And that gives parents a way to talk about that in their own home with their, with their kids. The opposite of that is happening today, where these are allowed in school. So what can parents do? What can parents say to their kids, to their 8, 9, 10-year-olds who are asking about it when it is allowed in school?

Matt Pulley: (10:25)

And then, you know, so helping parents out, I think is is what the phone free, not only will it create a distraction-free learning environment, I think it will really help the conversations that are having in the home with parents. Um, and then the last thing is more independence, free play and responsibility in real, in the real world. This fourth norm of, of more independence and free, free play is what we should be doing with our kids. And, um, and, and, and how they develop, uh, and, uh, in a healthy way. Things like autonomy, agency, really what add up to what is their offline identity. And it's, you know, it's really that offline identity, um, which, which we can come back to in a little bit. Um, that, that helps, that will help them as they grow getting into middle school and high school and adulthood, that will help them navigate the digital world as well as the offline world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:38)

Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, the, the experience of those, of having those independent moments and decision-making times and all of those things, they're all skill-building. So it's all competence building, which builds confidence, which then insulates against isolation and depression. I kind of like to spell that out because I don't know that everybody goes, oh, I can let my kid go, you know, run a quick errand at the store for me. And they don't, it, it doesn't translate down the, down the pike for them of what mm-hmm . What all of the experience building is happening.

Matt Pulley: (12:24)

That's right. And if I could say one more thing, I'll put on my technologist hat and say the, one of the reasons why, from my perspective, from a technologist perspective, that this is important. One of the common rebuttals that we might get from a school for being phone-free, or even parents that say, “Hey, you know, it's a digital world out there. We really need to teach our kids how to use these.” And while that will be true, when they're emotionally ready, they're from a technologist standpoint, I've been hiring, uh, software engineers for over 20 years. And I can tell you for sure the difference between hiring a good technical person and a not good technical person has nothing to do with their technical skills and everything to do with, uh, their critical thinking and their emotional regulation, their ability to deliver value and, and be a team member.

Matt Pulley: (13:17)

Um, and so I always like to point that out as someone who hires technologists to say, look, they will pick up, they will understand later how to use a device, how to code, how to design, how to be creative, whatever they're into, that will come, we know our kids can pick this, these things up easily, but what we want to have happen in order to give them a great, um, adulthood as they grow through adolescence, is to develop that that executive functioning so that they can be, uh, u utilize those technical skills in a, in a pro professional way.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:52)

I totally agree with you. And, and to recognize that human beings have evolved to have windows of sensitivity, and they're mm-hmm . In the child development process where those neurons are working, they're firing together, and they're wiring together to do all of those things. Like read facial expressions, understand what a communication delay might mean, have empathy, all of those things. Mm-hmm . So we are actually suppressing nature. It's, uh, Jean Rogers, who's the director of Screen Time Action Network, uh, has a saying. She says, “Technology changes, child development does not.” mm-hmm . And I, I love that because it's so true. Right?

Matt Pulley: (14:38)

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:39)

Awesome. So when we come back, let's talk more about the challenges that parents are facing with achieving this goal of collective action and how four norms can help them out.

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I am speaking with Matt Pulley from Four Norms, an organization whose mission is to empower parents to reclaim their agency over how technology shapes childhood by providing simple tools that transform individual concern into collective action. So one of the things that I really like about your website, Matt, is that you have kind of blog posts, and one of the things featured on them is something that you call the algorithm neutral zone and pitfalls associated with that. And we hear so much about algorithmic push and I mean, algorithm is just a word that's all over the news right now, but I'd never heard about this neutral zone. So could, could you kind of flush that out for us?

Matt Pulley: (16:55)

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I, it probably needs a better label. The branding on that is not the , but what I mean by the algorithm neutral zone, let me kind of go through it a little bit. So, as I mentioned, I, I started to think about how technology is affect is affecting our kids and thus our parents. And in my entrepreneurial experience, you know, we do things like develop personas we think about who our, our customers and our users are going to be and where they are and how they think and what their behavior is. And I needed a way to think about if, if this is true, that this is affecting parents, how can I think about what this means to parents and where they are? And it overlapped a little bit. And, and this is, this is backed up by, uh, you know, Jonathan Haidt.

Matt Pulley: (17:44)

Through the anxious generation and his, um, Substack after Battle has put the, has put together a timeline of when algorithms really took over social media platforms and thus started to take over our lives in various ways. As we think about today, uh, the way we all consume our news is very algorithm-driven and, uh, many other things as well. And there's this moment in history and it, and backed up by this timeline, it's around 2012 when, when, uh, the Facebook feed, um, after they bought Instagram and a host of other things where, where the combination of, uh, algorithm driven platforms and, um, the ubiquity of mobile phones in everyone's pocket, including younger and younger, as that started getting younger and younger, around that 2012 timeframe is, is where that sort of threshold happened. And since then, the algorithm neutral zone theory is that states that, you know, since then, the, that algorithms have become a, a central part of our society, meaning that it drives our news and drives our information system and many other things.

Matt Pulley: (18:58)

And so with that as the premise of, of when and how that happened, um, there's this concept by a guy named William Bridges, um, who is, who developed a theory of change called, um, the Neutral Zone, which is, um, the difference between the idea of a change. The change is when the event happens, for example, if you, uh, take a new job day, day one is the day that change happened, but you go through this transition of transitioning into this new role, which could take months, and it's that transition that is really an emotional and psychological transition. So when we think about change, we don't think about that today a change happened, and tomorrow everything is totally different. There's this neutral zone. And what, what it describes is, um, what's key about the neutral zone is that once this change occurs, it takes some time to figure out and emotionally and psychologically move through how to operate in this new normal.

Matt Pulley: (20:03)

And so coming back to that threshold where algorithms took over everything in our society, the idea is that there are people, and these are, I'm talking about adults, parents and adults alike, um, that have, some of us have moved through there and said, yes, I'm, I'm really aware of how tech, uh, algorithms have, um, changed our lives. And now we can make decisions about how deliberate and intentional we can be with that. But there's, there are a lot of us, and this is where many parents find, uh, find ourselves, um, with just in that neutral zone and kind of have, we think about the internet as the original days where we had the, where we had email and where we had, you know, the original days of Facebook where you had to navigate to your friend's wall and post something on there, but those platforms don't behave that way anymore.

Matt Pulley: (20:53)

Mm-hmm . And this is pre-feed and things like that. And so, um, to, to visualize, I wanted to visualize where parents are in this process so I developed some buckets of, of where people are, some folks are kind of all the way through and say, I understand how, how the technology's impacting me, and I wanna be really intentional and deliberate about how I, how I do that in my own life and in my parenting, um, abilities as well. And then there are some folks, um, who are still trying to figure that out. They're still trying to figure out, is the internet the same as I saw it? What are my kids experiencing when they, you know, go online, whether it's YouTube or Instagram or whatever. Um, and so the, the idea is understanding where parents are in this journey can help us, um, think through how we help them, how we meet them, where they are, and the sort of actions and interventions we want to take to help them move through and get to that ideal state of being very deliberate and purposeful about how you integrate technology in your own life and your family's life, um, so that you can, you know, apply your own values to make sure that tech is serving you and not the other way around.

Matt Pulley: (22:16)

That you're, that, that, that, that you're just serving the tech and you're sort of like, you know, um, this is what we call doom scrolling. And, and you know, when hours go by and you're like, what was I doing? Yeah. And so this gives us a little bit, again, I think it needs some branding because , because I'm not, I'm not sure those, the, the, the best terms for, um, to put out there, but it, it was sort of like a thing that kind of was percolating in my mind in terms of how to find where parents are and meet them where they are. Um, and so I kind of like put it down on paper.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:48)

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you bring up that year 2012 specifically, because when you look at most mental health data in the US it 2012 is mm-hmm . Where you start seeing what they call those hockey sticks, you know? Yeah. Where the, the data just starts jumping up in terms of self-harm, in terms of, so, uh, suicidal ideation and everything else. So it's when, whenever anybody starts talking about, oh, right around 2012, I always go, Hmm, what else here? So, yeah. Very interesting. Your program really focuses on bringing parents together when, when doing this thing called collective action, which is so, uh, needed and wonderful. Mm-hmm . Because, um, you know, I think of like, it's like trying to light a fire in a rainstorm. It's really mm-hmm . Hard to do without others helping you , right? Yeah. Shelter your little campfire. And for a long time there have been, you know, people have been really impassioned about digital wellness, but we've been the solo voice in the crowd and really unpopular. And so I am so grateful that books like Anxious Generation and organizations like yourself that have come about, and it's, but this whole concept of building community is so important when you're trying to enact social change. How can people find like-minded others when they visit your website?

Matt Pulley: (24:32)

Yeah. You know, the, the idea of collective action, um, you know, Dr. Haidt and many others, the after talking through these things, you know, the common, um, way out, uh, correctly, I believe is to link arms and take collective action, and one that is great. And I, I love that, but there is a little bit missing, I think, which is, okay, how do I do that? Mm-hmm . What am I supposed to do? What's the first step I'm supposed to take? And that's what, that's what I'm hoping to solve here with a platform, uh, with my platform, Four Norms, is we understand that, okay, I, I understand what's happening, taking collective action. I need to find like-minded people, and I need to, and that can be three, four, or five. It doesn't have to be a, you know, 50. And I wanna start taking action with them.

Matt Pulley: (25:24)

And so, um, what, through my work with the Screen Time Action Network and, and other groups, what I notice is that these groups and these little, um, pods of people exist in real life everywhere mm-hmm . Um, and I wanted to, I really wanted to give those people tools to, uh, remove sort of a barrier to entry, um, to, to not have to fiddle with like the tools and just start, um, you know, clicking buttons and like take action and go, uh, to oversimplify it, you know? And, um, and so what I, what I hope to do, um, is take, take these IRL groups of parents that exist and have been kind of talking formally or informally, and give them away to jump on and start working together. Um, putting all their resources in one place, putting all their communication in one place, um, even putting up their, their parent pledges or parent pacts and collecting signatures and collecting, you know, the ability, um, to, to, you know, send out a link and say, here we're collecting signatures, and once you do, you're in our group and you will, you'll be notified with all of this stuff.

Matt Pulley: (26:39)

We're with X, Y, Z school, you know? Mm-hmm . And so there's a little bit of, um, it's not quite a, not quite a full kind of discover everyone around you. What I hope to do is take the, the three or five people who are actively talking about this and give them sort of that one link to send out to the other hundreds of parents in your school or in your community and say, here, we're using this plat, this platform to organize, jump on board with us. We'll continue the discussion. And you can see, you can see our petition here, you can see our presentation we gave to the principal here. And, um, this is one spot for us to organize the way we're thinking about, um, the way we're thinking about taking action. And there's also a concept of playbooks on there. So we have a playbook for how to create a, a, a parent pact and a playbook for phone-free schools.

Matt Pulley: (27:32)

And these are all based on best practices that exist out there, 'cause there's a lot of great organizations doing these kinds of things. So what we hope to create is, uh, once you have that, uh, your core group of parents on here, point and click, and here's the playbook. Here's how to, here's a copy and paste on how to send an invite out to the rest of your group. Here's, once you're ready, here's a copy and paste on that letter to send your school admin, your principal. And here is a way for you to post and collect signatures for your parent pact, for your, for your form letter petition and those kind of things.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:17)

Yeah. No, I think that's so helpful because I feel like it's, it's daunting to think of having to create all of that for every community, to not have to reinvent the, the wheel, just have a template that they can kind of put in place and tweak to their likings. I think that's, that's a huge difference than just, um, you know, feeling like I'm a parent and I want things to change and I, and I know what I need to do. But, you know, let's be honest, we are all, you know, holding jobs, running sports practices. Yeah, that's right. Cooking dinner, doing all of that. So you've kind of removed that barrier for entry. And I think it's, I think it's fabulous, which it all, all of it speaks to healthy screen habits, if you will, and media savviness, and it all helps build a healthy community. Yeah. So we have to take one more short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Matt for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (29:32)

I'm speaking with Matt Pulley, a technologist, entrepreneur and parent of two who after taking time as a stay-at-home dad, found himself deeply concerned about the tech industry's impact on kids. So, Matt, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own homes. What's yours?

Matt Pulley: (30:03)

Great question. I, I really, I've thought about this a lot, I really think that the most impactful, uh, influential and controllable thing that parents can do in their own home is the modeling, uh, that we can do of our own behavior and our own habits for our kids. I think when, when you think about what you're, when, when you're at the playground, at soccer practice, at the games, our kids notice, you know, how what we're doing if we're always on our phone, or even if we always have that in our hand and carrying it with us, they notice that and over, they may not say anything. They may not be able to say anything about it, but over time, and as they get into their tween years and teen years, I really believe that that modeling will show up.

Matt Pulley: (30:53)

And so in this world of, you know, uh, big tech, and boy, it seems hard to, there's not much we can do about that. Um, I really feel like it's, it is very much in our control in how we model and what we do in our own homes and in front of our own kids. And I think that will be the most influential thing, um, that you can set screen time rules, parental controls and that kind of thing. But I really believe that the most influential thing is, is the modeling. And I wanted to share, um, the, one of my favorite quotes by the author James Baldwin, um, who says, “Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them.” And I love that quote because it just shows we know this as parents, that our kids will imitate us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:39)

Yes. Often at times when we really don't want them to

Matt Pulley: (31:42)

Yeah, exactly. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:44)

There's, it's a rare parent that hasn't had the “Huh, didn't know you were watching that!” mode.

Matt Pulley: (31:50)

Yeah. Or repeating things that they overheard us say, whoops. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:54)

Exactly. Exactly. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this episode as well as a link to Four Norms in the show notes. You do this by going to it's healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Matt, thank you so much for being here today and for all of your work in the world to build community through collective action.

Matt Pulley: (32:38)

Thank you so much, Hillary. I really enjoyed the conversation.