Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Fight the New Drug: website

Geoff Steurer Podcast Episode - From Crisis to Connection: link

Gottman Article: The Magic Relationship Ratio, According to Science

Good Pictures, Bad Pictures: Amazon link

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:00):

Today's episode deals with sensitive material that might not be fitting for all ears if you have littles in the area or not in a place where you can listen about pornography and it's effects. This might be an episode that you wanna pause, put on earbuds or mark for a later listen date. As always, I want you to take care of you. Knowing boundaries around tech consumption is probably one of the healthiest ongoing screen habits you can have. And if you're staying with me today, I'm so happy you're here because what today's guest is talking about is often overlooked. When I talk to parents about pornography exposure or online addiction. The conversation is incredibly gender biased. Parents of boys usually lean forward, full attention, and parents of girls usually like take a deep breath, relax, maybe even start scrolling on their own phones.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:10):

Many times in parenting, however, it's what you are not expecting. That's what often turns up in your own home, <laugh>. So I think everybody should be listening today. And before we get started, I'll make it clear that Healthy Screen Habits and the Healthy Screen Habits podcast is not a religiously affiliated organization. My guest today is going to tell her perspective as a young woman growing up and living as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as LDS, and I think you're going to love her. She's wonderful. Madi is an 18 year old girl who's passionately spreading awareness about LDS women struggling with pornography. She grew up in the LDS faith and comes from a family of five. She likes weightlifting, hiking, singing, playing guitar, collecting records. She's a pre-business student in her second semester at B Y U and hoping to go into entrepreneurial management, I am so grateful she reached out to me to help amplify her story of hope and healing and living with recovery from female porn addiction. Welcome Madi!

Madi (02:28):

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:30):

So Madi, one of the things that immediately caught my attention about your story is that your journey is about an issue that goes largely unknown. And I'd like to start with the very basics cuz I'm sure that there are folks that are just beginning to grow their awareness of porn addiction. How do you define pornography addiction?

Madi (02:57):

Okay. So to kind of start off, I actually don't like to use the term addiction personally.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:03):

Ooof, sorry! <Laugh>.

Madi (03:04):

No, you're good, you're good. I like, I actually like when people bring it up cuz it helps me kind of explain why. Um, so when you, when you use the term addiction, it kind of makes it seem, at least in my own mind, that it maybe is not recoverable. And like that's just, oh, you're an addict. Um, that's something you'll struggle with for the rest of your life. So I think that's something super important to bring to the conversation, especially if you have kids or know anyone who's struggling with it. Um, and you, you deem it as an addiction when it's not actually an addiction, cuz it can make it really hard for them to, um, kind of overcome it. Um, anyway, so kind of a different word. I like to define mine as a bad habit. We'll say, yeah, pornography, like having a bad habit of it. It, it feels like it's something that you can't live without. It feels like it's an escape. It's something to numb out your mind. Um, that's kind of how I would define it.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:04):

Okay. So yeah, I think it's, um, that that explains a lot. That there's nothing that will numb out the mind faster than sexual drive, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it makes sense that you're using it as a mental checkout. Okay. And one of the  things that gets a lot of airtime for men with pornography habits, to use your word <laugh>, is the issue of erectile dysfunction. That is men who overuse pornography cannot attain or maintain erections when intimate with a real life partner. And what are the effects of women overusing pornography?

Madi (04:49):

So, okay, start us off. I'm not an expert, I am 18, but I can just speak from my own

Hillary Wilkinson (04:55):

<laugh>. I I I'm only asking for Yes, <laugh>, I recognize

Madi (04:59):

<laugh>. Um, so pornography is very isolating in and of itself. You have to isolate your thoughts, you have to be physically isolated and you have to be isolated from your friends and family. Um, and so I think that, I mean, that's a general effect that happens for men and women. You have to get to a certain state of mind where it's, you can't really think about those things that matter most or that are most important to you cuz otherwise you wouldn't be, viewing pornography as an escape. So, um, kind of to dive into being a woman or a girl struggling with pornography, there's an extra layer of shame. There's already so much shame surrounding it. Um, but especially being a woman. So coming from the  LDS church, um, I remember I would have young women's lessons, and I know that my young women's leaders were always well-intentioned.

Madi (05:55):

It is not their fault. They just didn't grow up in a generation where this was as big of a problem, <laugh>. And so I remember in the young women's lessons, when the subject of pornography would come up, they'd kind of treat it lightly and they would, it would feel like, like I re I remember they would say, “Okay, like, we're gonna have a lesson on pornography, we know this is kind of an uncomfortable subject. We know you guys don't really struggle with it, but just kind of take this for, you know, your future spouse in case they struggle with it.” And so the statistic, um, for those struggling with pornography is 90% wo men and 30% women. And the odds of me sitting in that group of like, like probably 10 to 15 people and like me and two to four other girls struggling with it, I'm sure that just beat down on us.

Madi (06:51):

And I'm very happy to say, like, to be able to be sharing my story now, but it makes me sad for those five girls and the thousands and thousands of other girls who are struggling with it. So if you look up “LDS Women Struggling With Pornography”, the first three results, I, two or three results are actual resources for women. But then further down the line, like the entire, uh, first page and second page are resources. "What to do when your spouse is struggling with pornography." And so it's just something, it's something that is not even talked about and it's such a problem because when you have that shame that's already coming from the pornography and then you have the added shame of, oh my gosh, I'm actually the only person in the world like <laugh>. I was, I was just made incorrectly. Like, there's gotta be something wrong with me.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:54):

So, oh, and I think that like, especially in your teenage years, you already have so many of those feelings, uh, all around you, you know, and then to have that added stigma almost attached.

Madi (08:09):

Yeah, it's so true. And it's, it's so hard because, um, at least in the LDS church, again, sorry, I feel like I'm kind of like ripping on the LDS church. I love my faith <laugh>. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the gospel of the church sometimes. It's just the people. And so <laugh> and people are always,

Hillary Wilkinson (08:29):

I think, I think that's safe that I think most people of any faith, would echo that sentiment. So I think anybody understands anybody who is, who has been involved in an organization of any type!  Recognizes your sentiment.

Madi (08:47):

Oh good. That is comforting <laugh>. Um, but I just, so in, in the LDS church, it's just not really, it's kind of taboo to talk about women being sexual beings. And so I think that also played into it, like, especially just, you know, when I was younger and just discovering, oh, like there's this side of me and no one talks about it, so I must be made incorrectly. You know? 

Hillary Wilkinson (09:14):

Yeah. Well, you're not, and I'm glad you're here, <laugh>. Okay. And let's go ahead and take a quick break and when we come back we'll hear more about your journey.

Ad Break - 988 - The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline

Hillary Wilkinson (09:46):

I'm speaking with Madi, a young adult who's passionate about sharing her journey through the pathways of bad habits with pornography and what that led to. Her mission is to help young girls struggling with pornography know that they are not alone. There is help available. They're certainly not alone. I would like to echo that. In fact, according to Fight the New Drug, which is a leading organization in the awareness building on the social and emotional harm surrounding pornography viewing, most kids today are exposed to porn by age 13 with approximately 84.5% of males and 57% of females ages 14 to 18 having viewed porn. So Madi, I would like to ask if you remember all the way back, your first, um, time of exposure and how did your path go down that built this sort of bad habit? Mm-hmm.

Madi (11:03):

<affirmative>. So I was 13 when I first found pornography. Um, I knew at the time I, I don't remember exactly like the first time that I viewed it, but I knew that it felt good and I knew that something also felt wrong because after, like I had viewed it, I would always just feel so horrible about myself. Um, and I guess at first I didn't really understand where those feelings were coming from. Um, but kind of as I progressed, I, um, it just kind of built up the shame. And eventually I, um, I went to my bishop's office, which if you're not LDS, that's kind of like a pastor type thing. Um, and I, I talked to him and it was, it was like a night and day experience because I remember sitting outside of that office and I was like, just having all those thoughts of like, man, like “what if I go in there

Madi (11:54):

and he's just like, “Oh, really? Like Madi, like, you struggle with it?!”, you know?”  And like I just, all of those worrying thoughts and looking back now I kind of laugh at it cuz I'm like, there's no way if he would ever say anything like that. Um, so I went in, I had a very positive experience. Um, he just reminded me that I was loved and that God, um, knew right where I was at and knew what I was going through. And my worth to Him hadn't changed and wouldn't ever change. And it was a super, it was a super cool experience. And so I describe it as a night and day experience because again, the shame and guilt before going in. And then I remember coming out and you don't realize how much of an effect pornography has on your mind on numbing your emotions. So I was still able to feel emotions, but not the extremes of those emotions. So I wasn't able to feel extreme joy or extreme, um, sadness. And I remember walking out of that office and I was just able to feel like pure joy again. And I just like cried like tears of happiness.  It just felt like a weight was lifted off of my back.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:10):

Oh, the, the power of that connection. You know, cuz I think all of these bad habits that we develop are tools of isolation or disconnection and that, that power of connection we cannot under. It's, it's what keeps us human, you know? And it's that thing that tech kinda pulls us away from.

Madi (13:33):

Oh, I totally agree. Let me, sorry <laugh> to interrupt. No, you're good. Um, so I'm on the presidency of this club at BYU. It's called the UnAlone Club. We have meetings every week on Zoom, and it's for people who are struggling with pornography. We have awesome guests. Anyway, just to kind of intro it, we have this quote that I love so much that we talk about a lot. Um, it says "the opposite of addiction is connection" and it's just, oh, it's so true. It is so true. Just telling one person the impact that that can have is crazy.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:07):

So did you have, uh, you talk about these fe this, um, kind of absence of joy and absence, like the ab absence of like your emotional spectrum, so to speak, you know, the highs and the lows. Were there other sorts of things that kind of led you to realize that you had an issue that you wanted to get better control of? 

Madi (14:35):

Yeah, so it actually, it got to the point where I remember I had thoughts of like, before it would happen, I had thoughts of like, I would slip back into kind of reality and I'd be like, I don't even want to like be doing this. But then it would just, it just happened, you know? It was something that I just couldn't escape. And it also got to the point where I would be avoiding my friends and my family. And when you have, I'll say a, an addiction <laugh>, um, it kind of, you're able to bounce around to different addictions kind of. And so I would oversleep and I would overeat and I would spend my time on anything that would turn my brain off so that I didn't have to face the reality. Um, just anything to kind of fill that void that I felt in my life.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:28):

Sure, sure. So as you, as you kind of work through this pathway, do you have, do you use the same techniques? This is just me wondering. I always struggle with food. Madi <laugh>. I, I, it's my, it's my lifelong battle <laugh> and I'm try, I'm always looking like, do you, so when you're struggling with other things, do you use the same tools to avoid? Or how do you, how do you… 

Madi (16:00):

Yeah, okay. One of the most like, powerful things that I have done to combat really any form of like, like go and binge eat or pornography, addiction, anything that is used to numb my brain, I, as soon as I feel the urge to do it, rather than just pushing it away and saying, “No, that's a bad thing, that's a bad thing.” Um, there's this, there's this, uh, I think it's a Buddhist idea, please don't quote me on that, but, um, <laugh>

Hillary Wilkinson (16:27):

Too late. You're being recorded. No, I'm kidding. <laugh>,

Madi (16:29):

I know <laugh>, um, it's like acceptance of everything. And I love that idea. And the way that I apply it is as soon as I feel those urges, rather than just pushing them away and giving, assigning them value either as good or bad things, I just sit there for a second, take a moment to, be present and say, “Okay, what exactly am I feeling? And why am I feeling it?” Because there is always going to be a why people say, oh, like he or she, like they have a pornography addiction or they have a gambling addiction, or they have a, you know, they have a problem with pornography. What they really have is he has a problem with his marriage or with his work. She has a problem with social media usage or comparing herself to others. It's never pornography or any kind of addiction is never the problem. It's always trying to fill the solution and it's never going to work as a solution.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:26):

So, wise <laugh>, so knowing that we're trying to educate parents if they've got kids that they're concerned about, do you have, um, any apps? Were there, were there, can you share, are there a few apps that were like most problematic for you?

Madi (17:59):

Hmm. Um, so for me, as far as apps go, it was just like, it was just the internet. It was just Google. Mm-hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:06):

Okay.

Madi (18:07):

Um, yeah, I don't have much in that.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:09):

Yeah. Did you have, did you have like, um, restricted youth settings on your computers or?

Madi (18:18):

So I used my phone and I actually didn't really, and this works differently for all parents, and so I'm not one to give a blanket statement, but for me, I know that, that was exactly what was right for me because it allowed me to have, I know you kind of raised your eyebrows at that.  You're

Hillary Wilkinson (18:37):

Like, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm, I'm just thinking I'm raising my eyebrows. So this is funny. And we're on a, we're on a podcast, but Yes, yes. She's, she's doing a very good job of queuing what's happening because I am, I'm remembering exactly a quote that somebody told me that just like, you just cud in, so you, you go ahead with yours and then I'll, and then I'll add

Madi (18:57):

<laugh>. Okay. Yeah. So I just, I know that that was what was right for me because I was able to have those experiences for myself and kind of hit a little bit of rock bottom on my own. But then that meant that I was able to build myself back up and use my agency and kind of develop skills of self mastery, because those things are always going to be out there. It really is just a matter of how do you control it? And I mean, I don't have a ton of advice to give, like, as far coming from a parent's perspective because I'm not a parent. But yeah, for me, that was the right, right thing for me.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:35):

Yeah. Yeah. So the thing that, the thing that created the eyebrow raise, which, which I didn't, I didn't mean to be, you know, anything other than, oh yeah. Remember that <laugh> was, when I've spoken with others, is that when it comes to porn, and this sounds very crass size matters, <laugh>, that's, but that, that is the size of the screen is directly related to the exposure and consuming of porn. The smaller the screen, the greater the chance, or the risk I should say, of exposure and viewing. So like a desktop screen will be more limiting than a laptop, which will then be more limiting than a handheld device. And it has to do with concealability and accessibility. So that's what I was thinking about was oh yeah, the size matters rules. So <laugh>,

Madi (20:29):

That's so interesting. I didn't know that.

Hillary Wilkinson:

I know you're not a parent, but you have a unique perspective having been kind of on the other side of the desk, are there like behaviors or things that parents could look out for that might serve as an indicator that their child is struggling? Like, do you have any tips as far as what we could be looking out for in our own families mm-hmm.

Madi (21:01):

<affirmative>? So, um, first if, if you're a parent of like, around high school aged kids, I would say first go to them, put your finger on their wrist and look for a pulse <laugh>. And then there's your answer <laugh>, um, that they, they have or will struggle with it. Um, like I really am just gonna go out on a limb and be as bold to say, but yeah, they're, they're going to struggle with it. Um, it's almost unavoidable <laugh>. Um, the question regarding your children viewing pornography is no longer a question of if, but when. And the most important question that you can then ask is how to approach it when they do. Um, and, but anyway, here not to, here's some practical signs that they're struggling coming from my own personal experience. Um, if they shut themselves off or isolate themselves, or when you're all together with the family, they seem like they're a little bit off or numb or are a little past feeling, I'd say that's a good indicator.

Madi (22:07):

Um, but if you are going to ask about it or bring it up, always give 'em the benefit of the doubt and just assume that they have the best intentions and that what's going on isn't like, “hey, like have you been viewing pornography five times a day, <laugh>?” Because that's never, you know, before you ask the questions, you have to build the trust first. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I was listening to this podcast, um, it's called From Crisis To Connection, it's by Geoff Steurer. He had a guest on, his name is Hank Smith. And they talked about four characteristics of trust building interactions and that is frequent, personal, positive, and low risk. And I would go give that a listen cuz they explain it much better than I can. But I wanna emphasize on the low risk part. Um, if you, again, if you come to your kid just out the door with like accusations or things that they feel like they have to be defensive of, it's just gonna teach them to kind of hide it better. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, there's also, as far as interactions go, there's a guy named John Gottman, he's a psychologist and he came up with this, um, it's called the five to one ratio. And that's the ratio of good to bad interactions for any relationship. And so kind of take that as you will, but just examine your relationship with your kids and see where your interactions fall on that ratio.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:39):

Yeah, yeah. It's nice to, sometimes it's nice to have measurable things like that. Um, the other thing that I can say is to really destigmatize just the topic of porn in your house. And because oftentimes, you know, as parents we're coming from a different generational set and a lot of times we don't know and don't get the technology that our kids are super fluent with. And as such, when they come across porn online, a lot of times they think that it's something new that they're like, “Oh, oh, and my parents don't know about this because they don't know <laugh>, they don't know how to, you know, access wifi at Starbucks”  so by just increasing awareness, that is a good start. And I'll just give a plug for introducing porn in a very safe like, um, controlled way is to start with a good picture book, which doesn't have pictures of clearly of non- appropriate images.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:00):

It's more pictures of like moms talking to kids and stuff like that written by Kristen Jensen, the title of the book is Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, and they have one for older kids and then they have a younger kids edition as well, which is Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Jr. So I know being a child developmental person that prior to coming to like a developmental, you know, challenge or struggle if you will, they say the time to start talking about it is probably two to three years prior. And if the average age of exposure is at least 13. And just, and it was interesting to hear you say that you think that you're probably, your first exposure was around 13 that just validated that probably a good time to start talking about this is fourth or fifth grade, which seems so not what you want to be talking about, but <laugh>, we, we just have to do it <laugh>. So if you could let all parents know something about tech, porn, or growing up today, what do you think it would be?

Madi (26:12):

Oh man. I don't know if I can give anything more useful than what you just said cuz that was just amen to all of that <laugh>. You're so sweet. Um, but yeah, just again, when I start this off by saying: I'm not a parent, so please take this with a grain of salt <laugh>. Um, but first off, I just want to say good job. And I know that it's really hard, um, but just the fact that you're listening to this podcast means that you're looking for ways to help and that's awesome and you deserve a gold star <laugh>. Aww, <laugh>. Um, and then one more thing. There's not one right answer. Um, the fact that you are struggling with this question in your mind and just having this internal debate and looking for answers means you're on the right track and you, like, you shouldn't be looking for a point where you're finally like, okay, this is it, this is the end solution, we figured it out <laugh>.

Madi (27:08):

Um, but rather it's, it's more of a journey and just you'll get insights and guidance along the way. Um, anyway, that was just all kind of a preface, so now I have, I have uh, four little points. Um, so first off, um, just tell your kids that you're learning and you're human too. And I think a little humility goes a long way, um, especially for kids to hear that, oh this is actually my first time, my, my parents first time being a parent too. <laugh>, you know, they're figuring it out. Um, and then number two, um, kind of like you were saying is be so aware of how you talk about it because kids will test the waters and they'll say, “Oh, like my friend was struggling with this. Like, isn't that gross?” And like, if you so much as like even engage that thought of like, oh yeah, like maybe that's something that they shouldn't be struggling with that, you know, like just be super aware.

Madi (28:05):

Um, cuz shame will never lead to change. Um, another thing as far as being aware goes is like, use, use different pronouns when you're talking about it. Cause I know when I was 13 if I would've heard someone say, oh yeah, she is struggling with pornography, I think my whole life trajectory would've just changed right there. So I think that's just a little thing that you can implement will that will be huge. Um, the third point, um, kind of like you said, just start talking about it now and obviously make it age appropriate for however old they are. But if you're not having regular conversations with your kids about this, like, I like to think of it as like a General just sending all their soldiers into war and they're just like, “okay, good luck” <laugh>. There's just like, there's no battle plan.

Madi (28:58):

And so if you haven't talked to your kids about this, like that's again, shame isn't gonna change anything. Don't start feeling bad and beating yourself up about it. Just start talking about it now. On this, um, start talking now point. There's a family that I knew and what they did was they sat their kids down like every week or two weeks and they just sat them down one-on-one and it was just a space where they could talk about anything. And a lot of times they made an effort to bring the subject of pornography up even if, and it didn't start out because the kids had struggled with pornography. It was just a conversation that they introduced early on.  And then I have one last one. This is, this might be kind of a hot take, but again this is just my opinion. Um, filters will not work. I'm not saying that the filters won't do their job <laugh>, but the idea of perfection, that's all an illusion and your kids are never gonna be perfect. And I mean I'm sure all of the parents probably know that about their kids. Um, but it's just gonna create kids who know how to hide things and it's gonna make it harder for them to come clean to you.

Hillary Wilkinson:

 When we come back I'm gonna ask Maddie for her healthy screen habit!

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Hillary Wilkinson (32:36):

We are back. I'm talking with Maddie. As she stated earlier, she's the presidency member of the UN Alone Club at Brigham Young University. A club dedicated to providing space where those struggling with pornography addictions can come to share their burdens and feel unalone, which is so important when we know some of our biggest social struggles today surround loneliness. So, Maddie, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one?

Madi (33:18): 

I sure do. And this one is more targeted towards, um, teens or kids who are struggling with pornography. Um, and this really, really helped me. So first off is know where your trigger areas are and where your trigger moments are. And so for me it was at night and when I would go into the bathroom. And so what I would start doing is I would just leave my phone in my room when I would go to the bathroom and it actually turned into quite a positive experience for me. Cause I would just, I'd be able to go to the bathroom and I would take that moment and be able to rest my mind from if I was working on homework or work or whatever, whatever I was doing. It was a break to kind of just come to reality rather than having to fill my mind constantly with just either like, like scrolling on social media or, um, you know, in the worst times, uh, with pornography.

Madi (34:12):

And so along those lines, just start small and if that's all you can do, if you can just say, okay, I'm not gonna take my phone into the bathroom today. That's great. Um, and just, yeah, take those moments to feel present. And then another thing that really, really helped me is when I was feeling those urges that I needed to view a pornography.

Hillary Wilkinson (35:00):

So I love that kind of built-in speed bump that helps you take control of just like, not even take control, but just take a minute to kind of settle and manage your triggers by keeping your phone out of high risk areas. And, and I, I really like it because it holds hands with habit five of our five core habits, which you can see by visiting healthyscreenhabits.org. And habit five is keeping phones out of bedrooms and bathrooms. And at our website you can also find a complete transcript of this show and links to any of the organizations or podcasts that Maddie mentioned. So if you go to the website, click the podcast button and scroll down to find this episode, that's where you'll find that. Maddie, I wish you nothing but continued health and success and thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you sharing your journey with us and your unique take as a digital native kind of coming up through the ranks. Like we were talking earlier, you guys are generation one of this technology experiment and thank you for giving us a lens on it.

Madi (36:39):

Absolutely. I'm so happy I could do this.