Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

For More Info:

Log Off Movement: website



Stanford Habit Lab: chrome web store link

Screentime Genie: link

Show Transcript

Emma Lembke (00:01):

A huge component of my work is in pushing lawmakers so that we can begin to have more substantial and effective solutions moving forward.

Hillary Wilkinson (00:14):

Welcome to the Healthy Screen Habits podcast. I'm Hilary Wilkinson. Whether you're starting your parenting journey with a newborn or looking to connect with your teen on technology, let's learn some new healthy screen habits together.

Hillary Wilkinson (00:36):

So there are a lot of dark and depressing statistics surrounding teens, tech, social media, young adults, loneliness. The list goes on and on, and it's easy to get sucked into this sort of downward spiral of apathy and digital despair. That being set there is a light in every darkness. <laugh> Aristotle said, it's during our darkest moments. We must focus to see the light. And at healthy screen habits, we will always choose light. We choose hope. We believe in the human spirit, the tenacity of good will and the power of education always. So this season, I am focusing on those folks who are the light, those folks who are getting it done, healthy screen habits, heroes, we're calling them. I'm talking to heroes who are making a difference, and I am so excited today to a young adult who is doing just that. She's the founder of the Log Off Movement and a student at Washington University in St. Louis. Her name is one that you're going to wanna remember. That is, if you don't know it already. Emma Lembke!

Emma Lembke (01:53):

Thank you so much for having me. And I'm, I'm a huge fan of all of your work, so I'm super excited to engage in the conversation.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:01):

Thank you, Emma. So we were just speaking prior to getting on, uh, we're currently recording in May, and the surgeon general, my gosh, if I could give him a healthy screen habits hero sticker, I would put it right on his lapel. He has just issued an a advisory, which stated that social media presents a profound risk of harm for kids. So this is based on research and it is so validating for all of us in di the digital wellness space. He calls for action at the policymaker level. And this is huge. It's super important with tech being as pervasive throughout this human experience. I'd like to add that the movements that happen at grassroots levels are still incredibly important. And that's kind of Emma what I'd like to talk to you about. So, the Logoff movement is unique in that it was created by a group of teenagers with one common frustration. And can you share what was the common frustration and how did you find like-minded people to bring together?

Emma Lembke (03:16):

Yeah, absolutely. So the frustration put simply was just the lack of awareness regarding how screen time usage and social media impacted young people. But it more so was that in having those conversations and investigating social media's impact on young people, young people weren't even being heard. We weren't being included in conversations. And I thought alongside many other young people that that was a huge misstep because looking at the current state we're in, there's a huge lack of transparency within companies and within algorithms. So the only true insight we really have to work with to build solutions are stories. It's lived experiences and how you find lived experiences and how you build effective solutions. It's going to be through listening to those young people, building intergenerational kind of conversations and coalitions to move forward. So how I really found that community was difficult. One of the reasons why I didn't start log off for a while was because I didn't think the community was out there.

Emma Lembke (04:26):

'cause zooming back in time, I'm 20 now, but you know, eight years ago I was 12 and I got my first social media account, and I loved it. Initially, I bought into this, this myth of hyperconnectivity where, you know, social media has such potential to allow us to connect, express, and explore the world. You're told really, that you have all of this potential. If you are searching for a community, you can find it. So for me, going on these apps and being fed content that was meant to ke to keep me on, not to maximize my, you know, wellbeing, um, my identity, I thought to myself, I'm really scared and lonely and sad, but no one else must feel that way because I would've found those people online. I would've been shown the community, I would have already connected with those like-minded folks. So I had that idea.

Emma Lembke (05:23):

But then finally, after scrolling mindlessly for five to six hours every single day up until the ninth grade, I reached a breaking point where I said, you know what? No. Like, I need to better understand how I've lost control. I need to find that community of young people, and I need to go out and just, you know, pry out into the universe. Does anyone else care? Does anyone else see that this is an issue and hope that I'll get responses? Um, so, you know, I had the idea for log off in the ninth grade, kind of built it up, built the idea of having that youth centric community to provide that lived digital experience and to inform lawmakers, decision makers to build solutions. And, you know, I released it randomly. I was in my room during Covid in 2020, the summer of my senior year.

Emma Lembke (06:13):

I had a website I built myself. Everything was just very home homegrown, d i y. Um, and I remember going on Reddit and just posting, uh, sending out kind of a call to action and saying, Hey, other young people, I'm creating like a team leadership council in this organization I've made. Um, if you've been frustrated, if you've, you know, sat down one day and looked around and been kind of terrified and shocked by the people around you disconnecting in your own kind of disconnect, please join. And I remember thinking, wow, if this gets to Mississippi, I will have won. Like I am from Alabama. So I, I thought it was gonna be pretty contained and like the second applicant was from the Philippines. And I remember just thinking, wow, that is an indication that I, I did buy into the myth of hyperconnectivity, and that there are people out there who are frustrated and sad and lonely.

Emma Lembke (07:07):

So it's been a really profound moment. Um, we, you know, have taken many twists and turns in how we've built out our leadership structure and how we've engaged with young people. Um, and, you know, going into 2023, we're about to launch like a larger revitalization project to even lower more barriers. So folks, people and individuals across, you know, not just the country but across the world, can continue to engage and feel as though they have the resources and the community to speak up to, you know, raise awareness and to build better habits with like-minded people around them.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:41):

Okay. So next we're gonna talk about kind of this work of log off and what sort of actions Emma hopes to see. But first we have to take a little break. 

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Hillary Wilkinson (08:54):

So Emma, in February of this year of 2023, you had the opportunity to sit beside Kristen Bride, who is the mother of Carson Bride, who tragically fell victim to online bullying. And, uh, listeners, you can hear all about the important work that Kristen has done fighting social media giants like Snapchat and N G L on episode five of season five. But anyways, uh, you and Kristen and others who I'm calling Healthy Screen Habit heroes sat before Congress and I watched this all go down on CSPAN. So <laugh>, I mean, this was a worldwide audience, and when describing social media, you used the words a weapon of mass destruction. Mm-hmm. And you then urged Congress to work for and with the Youth of America to create safer platforms. What specifically would you like, I mean, pie in the sky kind of thinking, what specifically would you like to see happen?

Emma Lembke (10:04):

That's a wonderful question. Um, and you know, I, I remember preparing for that day, I, it was a huge honor. Um, uh, one of the few times my parents allowed me to skip school, um, in college <laugh>. Um,

Emma Lembke (10:19):

But I carefully chose those words, weapon of mass destruction because I think that social media truly can be what can, what will build us up and will allow us to flourish in the future, to evolve, to increase the quality of life, um, for many individuals and many societies and cultures. But I think that it also, if used incorrectly as it is now, if it continues along a certain path, I think that it can be what tears us apart. I think I was very intentional on, on placing that emphasis on social media. But to your point, I'm techno optimistic. Weapons can be used in a productive way to protect, to defend. And I think that social media likewise can be used in a productive way if two major things really happen moving forward. And this is what I proposed to lawmakers. Um, one, I really do think that algorithmic transparency is a must.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:21):

Can you break down what that, what that means? What, what is algorithmic transparency?

Emma Lembke (11:29):

So right now, a lot of companies, put simply, do not have to and do not disclose how their algorithms work. That's why, if you ever hear the phrase, you know, the black box algorithm, it's kind of used to describe the idea that we don't know what algorithmic features are being used specifically. We don't understand specifics about how certain features impact certain users because those are components of an algorithm that we don't know, that are not being disclosed to the public. Um, which it's not being disclosed to the public for many reasons that I could get into at a later point. But what happens when you don't have that disclosure and that open access to information is that researchers and lawmakers do not have important data to be able to understand how young people or users in general are specifically being impacted by specific pieces of the algorithm.

Emma Lembke (12:26):

Whether that is, you know, an endless scroll, whether that's, you know, certain information that's amplified. So increasing algorithmic transparency is just this idea that there has to be some access provided via researchers to lawmakers to allow them to actually create effective substantive solutions to the issues that we're finding, really addressing the negative externalities that are produced, loneliness, depression, cyber bullying, um, cyber harassment, finding ways to actually address those issues informed by data, informed by our understanding of algorithms. So for me, a huge component of my work is in pushing lawmakers and, and showing them the importance of opening up that black box algorithm so that we can begin to have more substantial and effective solutions moving forward. That being said, I think another very large broad stroke, um, that, that I suggest to lawmakers is putting in place common sense regulation. And when I mean common sense, I usually lean into design features.

Emma Lembke (13:40):

Um, so looking at how social media companies are allowed to design their apps, for instance, there is a piece of legislation in California that I helped kind of, you know, raise awareness of, um, that was based off something in the UK and it's called the Age Appropriate Design Code. And the idea is that by design and by default, you are protecting the privacy, safety, and wellbeing of kids. And what that can kind of look like in practice is banning, you know, surveillance, um, of kids and the collection of their data to target advertisements at them that might harm them. It's looking at features such as, you know, by default turning off the ability for, um, an unknown, um, adult to direct message a minor if they're not being followed. So it's looking critically at how social media is designed to be built in a way that is more aligned with how we as a society want to protect the nation's and the world's most vulnerable.

Emma Lembke (14:37):

So there are general broad strokes in looking at how to create those common sense regulations. Um, and while I am no expert in terms of, you know, building out specific policy points, I've been in this space for long enough, talked with so many young people, um, spoken with a lot of decision makers. And what I hear is people are finally at a point where they're dedicated to investigating these solutions. They're dedicated to putting in the time to begin to critically build out ways to protect the next generation. Because I think we've seen parents, educators, young peoples themselves, all begin to stand up and say, to your point earlier, we don't need to have awareness raising campaigns anymore because we feel and we see how this is impacting us, and we know that we're on a path right now where if we continue, it will only get worse. Right? And that's not something that we need for any generation, and specifically for kids that are getting social media and interacting with technology at younger and younger ages. So I, I really just have been incredibly encouraged and optimistic after looking at, you know, the surgeon general and, and their work. Um, but more so looking at the upheaval of so many different stakeholders in pushing forth change. And I've been really excited about the response from lawmakers and building out legislative action to meet that response.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:11):

I don't know why, it's never even occurred to me, but, um, just in talking right now, when you talk about algorithmic transparency, even if there were like names or, I mean, even if there were titles assigned to the specific path in which you are being driven down the hole, so say I click on a, you know, healthy recipes, and underneath that, I mean, if it just showed you the decision trees a you know, if, and, and I'm positive this can be done, is the thing, I mean, it could be a little subtext underneath it, so it could be healthy recipes, you know, and under one of those I'm positive would be disordered eating. Well, I mean, and then it's like, so you can see the path at which you are being driven, but it's like you said, as it is currently we are putting, it is worse than handing the, you know, keys to a Ferrari to a 12 year old and saying, make good choices. We are putting them in said Ferrari, a brick on the gas pedal and blocking out all the windows. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I mean, we, that that transparency is something that I think is absolutely critical to public health. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I, uh, I, I am with you <laugh>. So also

Emma Lembke (17:35):

Necessary for building like mindful practices to your point mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I think for me, at least in the space, that's one of my, my greatest, um, my greatest hopes is like you, if you can build via digital literacy through community kind of efforts, you know, um, codes of when and where you will use your screen, things like that. If, if continued efforts begin to emerge, um, I think you will gain a deeper sense of your screen time usage, you'll become more mindful. And to your point, mindfulness really drives greater intentionality because then I can say, you know, what, do I really want to engage with a platform that is taking away all of these moments of intentionality that is feeding me to your point, when I look up a recipe, boom, will keep her on, let's feed her something that will promote eating disorders.

Emma Lembke (18:27):

Do I want to engage in with a company or in this platform that prioritizes that? And I think for a lot of people, they'd say absolutely not. That is so antisocial, that is ripping apart who we are and what we stand for. But again, right now, those trees are not shown. That's com being completely covered. And I think that there has to be a moment when, as a society we say, that's no longer acceptable. You can no longer cover and conceal how you are operating, especially when it's being used by millions of children mm-hmm. <affirmative> at at what point is it too far? And I think that we are inching closer and closer to a breaking point. I think we already have a lot of angry groups, but I truly believe that we are about to reach a tipping point where that type of business model is no longer acceptable.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:24):

Yeah. And one of the things that I like about what you guys do at Log Off, um, is when you go on your website, there are several dropdown menus, but one of them is titled: Initiatives. And when you click on that, it brings you to several different things. And like, um, one of them is the digital detox challenge. So can you talk about that a little bit?

Emma Lembke (19:48):

Absolutely. So something that's at the core, uh, of who we are is building, you know, intergenerational partnerships to explore how on earth we tackle this issue, how we build better habits. And, and one of them was partnering with a medical research, um, team who had kind of developed out this idea of a robust, you know, digital detox challenge that allowed the individual to go at their own pace. Um, so it really allows people to take, you know, steps, leaps, jumps to kind of find out how they want to prioritize themselves, um, how they want to build better tech habits, but on their own terms. It's an easily like, you know, customizable, um, platform and program, um, that we found would be incredibly helpful to just teens who were seeking to start somewhere to say, you know, I don't really know what I wanna do. Um, I don't wanna be on my phone.

Emma Lembke (20:41):

That's one thing that I'm aware of, but I don't know what to do at that time. And we said, you know what? Let's provide some resources. Let's have this intergenerational partnership, uh, and then from there we can continue to build out our ideas and our resources to help people find those habits on their own terms. Yeah. Um, you know, other programs that we've, we've looked at has been, you know, how do you investigate wellbeing? So what does it look like to connect with other people, the world around you without your screen? How do you put in those boundaries? How do you put in those guardrails? Um, also we've been looking kind of critically at, you know, how women are impacted young females specifically in terms of their body image. Um, many surveys have come out like it Instagram's own internal survey showing the correlation and showing that young women said they felt worse about their body. I think it was like one in three felt worse about themselves and their body image after scrolling on Instagram. So,

Hillary Wilkinson (21:35):

And you even, you guys even have a specific on that initiatives drop down, you have a female initiative. I thought that was really interesting that you, you break that out specifically and it's got a really great playlist, so <laugh>. So if you want, if you want a good playlist, it starts off with like Beyonce, Run the World and it's like, just this like really great hype music <laugh>. So yeah. Thank you. And then, yeah, and then the other one just real quick before we go to break, um, there's also, it sort of leans into taking back the power of platforms through your design initiative, and I love it clearly states that these designs are for and by Gen Zers. So you're, you're putting that ultimate goal of yours to work, of giving youth a voice.

Emma Lembke (22:31):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Exactly. And you know, we, we are at Log Off specifically. I joke that it's just this creative outlet, um, and we're reframing and you know, it's gonna look very differently in the next few months, um, because we wanna continue to provide, you know, robust call to action through creative advocacy projects. But to your point, one of the major things that we have prioritized is how do you allow young people to envision a new world to design kind of what they want to see? How do you allow young people to take this opportunity and their frustrations and turn it into something productive, um, to share with other people to have for themselves to, you know, grow off of? So most of our initiatives are based around that general call to action and principle of using creative energy, using Gen Z's, just fire for advocacy to fuel something for good and to, to fuel outlets and new expressions of what it's like to be a digital native to help, you know, inform other people about what that's like, but then also to inform productive solutions to be built.

Emma Lembke (23:37):

So we're, you know, continuing to find ways to have those conversations in a more structured manner, continuing to build out our campaigning, you know, apparatus to be able to take on topics like body image in a more nuanced way that can allow more people to engage. Um, because we really do want to continue to lower that barrier of entry because this is something that is permeating so many aspects of our, our society and the way that we live, that it should be open and accessible to as many people to stand up and to push back. Um, that's something that's super important to us. And, you know, as we continue to grow and expand, that's something that will be, um, paramount, is lowering the barrier of entry through creativity and advocacy work for young people around the globe who want to, you know, rethink their own screen time usage and protect the next generation from the harms that we felt.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:31):

Awesome. When we come back, I'm gonna ask Emma for her healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:

We are back, I'm talking with Emma Lemke, founder of the Logoff Movement, and a digital activist and thought leader. So Emma, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home nearly immediately. Do you have one?

Emma Lembke (25:38):

I absolutely do. So earlier in my work when I was researching and I still research all the time to find habits and tips and tricks, I was told, stop everything. You have to download something called Stanford Habit Lab. And I thought to myself, I don't wanna have another extension. Like the whole point of this is I wanna find myself and I wanna find a great digital habit, but man has this platform and this program changed the way that I operate with tech in a very intelligent and, and mindful manner. So basically what this is, is it is a kind of program or software that you can download, um, usually it's on your like desktop or, um, through like Google Chrome. Um, mine is on my Google Chrome account for school and for work. Um, and basically what it does is it serves you mini interventions.

Emma Lembke (26:30):

It looks at screen time and kind of this growing, um, amount of data around us that shows there's a possible dependency and, and maybe even some would say addiction on, you know, scrolling. Um, and it takes the approach of an addiction, of providing interventions, providing layers of friction between users and those technologies in really fun and creative ways, very aligned with Log Off. So it's everything from Glitching, um, your Twitter account, so you can't use it for a few seconds, which is the most frustrating thing in the world. I promised you. We'll unplug, um, to, you know, making sure that you have a mindful moment. So every time I log into Instagram on my computer, I have to type in why exactly I'm going onto Instagram in that moment. Um, so it provides layers of friction between you and your technology so that you are more intentional each time you decide to use and it tracks your data. So it will show where you spend a lot of your time, which interventions have been most helpful, um, so on so forth. So it is a great platform to begin your own journey and to have someone assist you in setting limits and boundaries.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:37):

And it's no surprise that it's come outta Stanford because Stanford is also A: The sitting point for Silicone Valley <laugh>, but B: they, it was Stanford that created the Persuasion Labs. BJ Fogg was the guy who did the rollover habits with, with creating the algorithms with that we are seeing today that have become problematic. So it is incredibly heartening to me to know that they are, you know, laying down groundwork and seeds for, like you said, intervention, intentionality, and really intelligent use, which is informed use of tech.

Emma Lembke (28:20):

Exactly. And you know, I think a lot of people say that BJ Fogg and that lab and a lot of, you know, early tech developers never intended for this to happen. Correct. Um, and I think that that's the beautiful thing is, um, even though it has been shaped and molded and, and used in a way that has been problematic, going back to the same people that created it, people are beginning to step up and provide solutions. So I really applaud Stanford. They also have a, another platform, um, called Screen Time Genie, which is you can go on your laptop and it can also give you more suggestions, um, on how to use your screen time, um, productively. So I applaud Stanford, everything they're doing, and specifically if people wanna find out more about kind of their efforts, the design School and design lab at Stanford, um, has really been critically thinking through this issue.

Hillary Wilkinson (29:10):

Yes, yes. And I will have all of those plus the link to the Log Off Movement. You can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to all of those, plus a link to the logoff movement by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll down to find this episode. Emma, thank you so much for sharing your life experience and your thoughts and all that you're doing to create healthier space for both online and offline.

Emma Lembke (29:45):

Well, thank you for having me on, and I'm just so excited to continue to follow y'all's work and, and pushing forth more screen intentionality.