Episode 10: Putting People First: How Screens Affect Mental Health // Cheryl Cardall of Fight Like A Mother

“When we use (tech) as a power grab… it separates us from our kids.”

- Cheryl Cardall

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:00):

Cheryl Cardall is a mother who fights, as a proud mom of five and a wife of almost 25 years to her husband, David. Cheryl has committed to actively engaging and battling the stigma surrounding mental illness. I first came to know Cheryl via Instagram, where she served as a friendly, compassionate face that openly shared her daily struggles as a relatable mom. Now, Cheryl has expanded her battleground to include the field of podcasting as the host of Fight Like a Mother podcast. She opens the gates on tough conversations and touching moments. I'm so happy we have a chance to sit down today and talk, welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Cheryl Cardall!

Cheryl Cardall (01:05):

Thank you Hillary, for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:09):

So Cheryl, I feel like I kind of want to start at the beginning with you, the, the root of your cause the whole, like what fuels your fight and what led you to start the fight like a mother podcast?

Cheryl Cardall (01:25):

Well, a few years ago we started to see some behaviors in some of our kids that were pretty concerning. And, um, it come to find out that they were struggling with mental illness and trying to find resources and a community of people who "get it" was really lacking. It was hard to find the therapists that work. It was hard to find information. I didn't realize that anger and rage was a major symptom of anxiety and depression in boys. And so I decided that I was going to create the resources and the community that I was so lacking. Um, back in those first days when I didn't know what was happening and I needed more information.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:18):

Yeah. Thank you for doing that. I feel like I have learned so much just in listening to your podcast and one of the, uh, segments that you do that I have particularly enjoyed are your warrior segments. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I find those, like, those are like things to set your calendar by. They are so good.

Cheryl Cardall (02:42):

So this year I started my podcast last August in 2020. And this year I decided that one of the segments, I wanted to feature people who are in the trenches of living with mental illness and are warriors. And so I have had what four now? Um, warrior stories of people who are battling mental illness and, or are battling raising kids with mental illness. And, um, those stories are really touching. And I think one of my missions is to break the stigma of talking about mental illness. And that's one of the main reasons why I started to share these warrior stories is so that it becomes people sharing their stories is not unusual. People sharing that they have mental illness is not unusual.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:30):

Right. And for example, just to touch on like one of the warriors that you featured, I, because I don't have a personal experience with mental illness, I never realized how difficult pregnancy and postpartum depression. And all of that can be for someone who is already it, it starts kind of almost like layering on top of things. And I, I had no idea, so,

Cheryl Cardall (04:05):

Right. I think that was my guest, Sarah, who had bipolar disorder. And then she gets pregnant. You have to go off your medications and it just snowballs into this really intense, um, problem of significant mental illness. And that, that Sarah is a warrior. She's amazing. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:24):

Yeah, no, I really enjoyed that episode. Um, I feel like many of the challenges that I hear addressed on your podcast have overlap with questions and concerns that we receive at Healthy Screen Habits. And so I have to ask you kind of the, just get right into the meat of it. How do you see screens affecting mental health?

Cheryl Cardall (04:48):

Well, they definitely affect mental health. Um, they can now I do want to say though, screen time, social media, et cetera, does not cause clinical depression or anxiety. It can add to it if a child already, or, you know, a person already has clinical mental illness that can absolutely intensify, add to it, et cetera. And kids can experience anxiety and depression that is not clinical. It can be more situational due to being bullied on social media or comparing themselves to others or all those unhealthy things that can come from screen time from social media time. Those are all things. They can feel that anxiety, they can feel that depression, but it does not cause the clinical diagnoses. So I want it to be clear on that. It can definitely add to it.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:49):

Yes. So you see it as more of like an exacerbationary point rather than a root cause.

Cheryl Cardall (05:56):

Right. And I think a lot anxiety is a buzzword right now with so many, um, you know, a lot of kids say, Oh, I have anxiety and things like that. And a lot of our kids are feeling a lot of anxiety just due to circumstances in our society right now. Um, they're hearing about the news. They're reading about school shootings. They're reading about our 24/7 news cycle exacerbates that having through a pandemic, living through a pandemic, all of those things can cause feelings of anxiety. And a lot of kids are feeling that right now. So we need to take it seriously. Even if it's not clinical, we still need to take it seriously.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:38):

Right. And I also think to your point, many people use this phrase, anxiety or anxiousness in only a negative light. And you know, I, I love the kind of flip on that, that I've heard where, that feeling, that anxious feeling is supposed to be there because it's what kind of gets your body on alert. And instead of viewing it as only a negative feeling, like if we talk to our kids and teach them that, Hey, this is your body giving you a warning sign that something's not right. And you have to be a detective and pull it apart and figure out what's the thing that's giving you anxiety. And then you can work on resolving it and you can, you can actually use it as a strength building tool. So in a way it becomes more of a helper mode rather than a hurter, right?

Cheryl Cardall (07:38):

It can be in one of the reasons why, you know, anxiety is built into our brain to keep us safe. Um, that amygdala is this, uh, feature in our brain that helped our ancestors who were searching for food and being chased by animals, stay safe. And when you have clinical or severe situational anxiety, it's in overdrive. Sure. You will. You do have to, to learn how to bring it back into a normal state, but you're right. Anxiety doesn't always have to be a bad thing if it's in control. I mean, if we're in control of it, if anxiety is not in control of us.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:21):

Yes, yes. I like that. Interesting. Okay. When we come back, I'm going to ask Cheryl specifically about warning signs surrounding online behavior.

Ad Break

Hillary Wilkinson (08:31):

Today I'm speaking with Cheryl Cardall. She is a parenting coach and has been passionately educating and encouraging moms for over a decade. So I'm Cheryl, I'm going to tap in to some of your experience with parent education now and recognizing that mental illness manifests itself in different forms. I'm putting on my Healthy Screen Habit lens here, and I'm going to ask a tech specific question. Do you have tips for recognizing what I would qualify as problematic online behavior or behavior that we might be able to observe in our own families and think, "Hmm, this isn't following a healthy path?"

Cheryl Cardall (09:34):

Absolutely. I think that, um, anytime kids are utilizing screens to get out of doing healthy things, they are utilizing it to numb themselves from hard things that are happening now. All of us it's okay to numb sometimes it's okay. Our brain needs a break, sometimes it's okay for them to watch shows or play games. I'm not going to demonize tech at all because, um, there are ways we can use it in healthy ways. Right. But have to be super-intense, they're hiding their tech use from you. They don't want you to look at their phones. They're spending hours and hours a day on it. Maybe that's all they look forward to doing. Those are some warning signs that to look for, um, with our kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:26):

Okay. So I'm just going to go over those again to make sure that I heard them. So hiding tech, not wanting you to see what their online activities are. And then what was the third one?

Cheryl Cardall (10:41):

Do I even remember what I think just overusing it, I think. Okay. Sure, sure, sure, sure. That's right. That's right. And using it to numb those more healthy behaviors, you know, they utilize, they want to be playing screens instead of being outside, playing with their friends, they are utilizing those screens to numb, doing hard things or hard feelings

Hillary Wilkinson (11:07):

Screen to kind of disengage from life. And I, we see that both in overuse of online gaming, pornography, social media misuse, I mean, it goes across the board. Those are always what I call the big three. And it, uh, I agree with you, it's, it's kind of follows the line of, of an addiction pathway where you are adopting maladaptive behavior. Behavior that's no longer helpful to help you escape, escape, uh, a bigger issue.

Cheryl Cardall (11:46):

Yeah. I do think we have to be careful using the adage label on kids though. I think that's a really label to put on kids and teens, um, because that's almost something they feel like they can't get out of. And so I think maybe they have, uh, you know, a habit, an unhealthy habit, um, with these. But I do think, um, you know, we had somebody put a label on one of our kids as an addict and it was really actually damaging, um, because it created a lot of shame and things like that. So I think we have to be careful about that addict label when they're so young.

Hillary Wilkinson (12:25):

Sure, sure. Well, I'm thank you for opening my eyes because I, you know, I may be somebody who's throwing that term around without recognizing the, the weight that it's carrying. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I completely agree with you. Um, the other point that you made that I completely agree with is it's not, not that the tech is the actual problem. It's like what we go back to. I did an earlier episode with Emily Cherkin who's the screen time consultant and she spoke specifically about, we are not, and this, I just thought it resonated with healthy screen habits message. We are not anti-tech right, we are tech intentional. So it's whenever that use of technology loses its intention, I think is where we have to look.

Cheryl Cardall (13:23):

Take over life. You know, I mean, we have a lot of fun as a family playing video games, um, watching movies, even, you know, looking at funny YouTube videos or memes that my kids see on social media. I think there are a lot of fun ways to use tech to connect as a family. Build those relationships are obviously ways that they, that it disconnects us as well.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:46):

Right. But honestly, it has been a huge relationship builder during this time of pandemic that we've been living through. And I kind of feel like there's this collective bracing for a bit of parents for pulling back and easing away from screens as we move out of the pandemic. And how do you coach parents to develop boundaries around technology?

Cheryl Cardall (14:17):

Well, I would say you need to have your kids input into those boundaries that I know a lot of people will print a tech contract off online and present it to their kids and have those kids sign it. And there's no buy-in for the kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:33):

Right, if their fingers aren't on the blueprint.

Cheryl Cardall (14:38):

And I think tech, again, it can divide us or it can connect us. And when we use a kind of, as a power grab as parents, it separates us from our kids when we include them in our rules and boundaries and all of those things, it has the ability to connect us as people and families. And I think that's so important to get your kids buy-in as to the rules regarding tech and allow them to negotiate. Hey mom, I know I've had my 30 minutes on my video game state, but I'd really like to finish this level with my friends. It'll take 20 more minutes. Is that okay? You know what that's okay.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:20):

I also going back to it because that shows intention behind their use. They're not just going on it to numb out completely. If they're saying I need about 20 more minutes or I need to, if we can just finish this level, then you come from a place of understanding. I, I just, I love that.

Cheryl Cardall (15:39):

Mom freaking out that you're past your time limit and you've got to get off right now. And I mean, I've done this, I've gone and turned the TV off right then. And it's created resentment and disconnection. And I think, you know, our kids learning to negotiate with us. That's a really good life skill as well. Um, so I think opening up that communication and knowing that they can talk to us about it and that we're reasonable and flexible is really important way to connect with them.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:08):

Okay. On our website we offer a free downloadable tool called the Family Tech Plan which can act as a conversation springboard for this type of boundary laying.  It’s not a “sign on the line” type of contract, it’s more of a conversation starter to get all of the family member’s fingerprints on it.  This is kind of feeding right into the next area. I wanted to talk about which I feel. I think that one of the reasons I, I always, um, found you'd be so relatable on your Instagram feed was you're you're or is, I should say you're really great at putting your relationships with your children above everything else. And you use that relationship as your guiding principle. I mean, that's what, that's what comes through to me. And so what I kind of am interested in pursuing is how do you find the difference between upholding the rules yet protecting that relationship? Do you think it all comes down to that dialogue? Or how do you, how do you do that?

Cheryl Cardall (16:55):

I do think it comes down to the dialogue. I think it comes down to, um, yes, we are the parents and we need to follow through on the boundaries and things. But I find with my kids when we've had a conversation beforehand about what the rules are, what the boundaries are, et cetera, it goes much better. And when they do push through those boundaries, which happens. When we have that relationship, you're not completely disconnected from them when they do push through those boundaries and there have to be those consequences and things like.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:32):

Right, there's a fall back on,

Cheryl Cardall (17:34):

There's a fallback that relationship you've put deposits into that relationship. And so, yeah, there's a big withdrawal when they know you're upset with them when you have to enforce the boundaries, et cetera, but it doesn't deplete it to nothing because you've built, worked really hard on building those relationships. Yeah. Okay. And I also want to say with screens, I, and I, maybe you were going to ask this question later, but I think sometimes we give them too much power. I think that when screens become all about our rewards, their consequences are all about screens. It gives them too much power. You know, if you do this, you can play on your iPad. If you break these rules, then you're going to take screens away for a week. It makes us seem like screens are the be all end all.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:24):

Well, and it almost causes this third party within your relationship. So it becomes instead of this back and forth between you and your child, it's now this triad of you and the screen and the child. And it becomes, very problematic.

Cheryl Cardall (18:45):

That becomes a path. The screen becomes the most powerful thing in the home almost when it's utilized for all consequences and rewards.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:53):

Right. So, okay. If you had the opportunity to have a billboard on times square, this is your chance to send your message to the world. Uh, so if you had the opportunity to have a billboard on times square and broadcast your message to the world about men, kids' mental health, what do you think that might be?

Cheryl Cardall (19:20):

Uh, I would say two things. Kids do well when they can, when they're not doing well, there's something deeper going on. And second is that the relationship is the most important, focus on that relationship. All the other stuff is fluff.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:37):

Okay. I love that because it's so simple kids do well when they can, like, I, it's so simple yet very profound. And that's something that you've seen reflected in your own family, as well as the parents that you've coached?

Cheryl Cardall (19:54):

Absolutely. I think when we have that perspective of: If my kid isn't doing well, if they're having these really tough behaviors, if we're having conflict, what's deeper? What's happening? That's deeper instead of focusing on those hard behaviors, what's really going on with them?

Hillary Wilkinson (20:13):

Huh. So just sitting down and having the, the deeper conversations, do you find during those conversations? Are there any, I feel like, I don't know. I feel like I wish as a mom, like there was a code book that I could flip open to and go, Oh, okay. If I hear these words, I need to be, I need to really, you know, up my mom antenna, you know, do you, do you have any code words?

Cheryl Cardall (20:40):

I think that as moms, my biggest tip for moms when I coach them is it's all here. 

Hillary Wilkinson:

You’re touching your heart.

Cheryl Cardall:

All you need into your heart is in your heart. You are their mom for a reason. You can tune into that intuition that you have for them. And you know, when your child isn't doing well, you can see it. You can see it in their behaviors in the way they talk and their attitudes and trust that and believe your kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:10):

This is where I think your title of your podcast comes in the Fight Like A Mother, because sometimes when you have that feeling as the mom, the, you know, the quote unquote experts are not in agreement with you. And I think that's when you have to really armor up and just walk, strong onto that battlefield for your time.

Cheryl Cardall (21:41):

Sometimes it is sometimes it is that armor and you really do have to fight for them. But when you know in your heart, something's not right here, I'm going to pursue this. I'm going to go to the next expert. If this one won't listen to me doing that for the good of your child, it's all within you to know what to do.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:02):

You share a story that I wonder if you could share on here, I've, I've heard you, um, maybe it was on your podcast. Uh, it was about one of your children who was having a very hard day and you allowed them to, I don't remember whether it was to stay late from school or to skip. Do you do well, does this ring a bell?

Cheryl Cardall (22:28):

Well, well, and, and this actually happens fairly regularly in my house because I have five children and five out of five have some extent of mental health challenges. And so, um, you know, this isn't an unusual story, but one of my kids just - school has been hard for him this year, due to the pandemic, due to wearing masks, he has sensory issues. It's hard to wear a mask all day long. And he just, I took him to school and he literally had a panic attack in the parking lot. And um, I said, okay, we're going home. So he went, we came back home, he fell asleep, slept for two hours, woke up and said, "I think I can go to school." So we went to school and I took him in the, the receptionist was saying, Oh, why are you late? And he didn't want to say so.

Cheryl Cardall (23:19):

I said, "Okay, you run off to the class." And I said, he was a little anxious about coming back to school today. And she said, Oh yeah, a bunch of kids are. And I thought, here's my chance. Here's my chance to fight for him to educate about what's really going on this. Wasn't just a stomach ache that he didn't want to go to school. This is clinical anxiety. So I explained to her a lot of what he was dealing with and then realized I hadn't really explained to his teacher. So I wrote an email to his teacher later that day. And I said, I would just want you to know, I haven't explained this very well. This is what he's dealing with. And both of those women that I explained that to said, "Oh my goodness, I'm so glad you explained that to me because now I understand better when he's having a hard day," Because he's come home a lot with stomach aches, he's gone up to them and said, I feel sick and they'll try and keep him at school and things like that. So that's part of fighting for your kids is allowing them to have those hard days and nurturing them and loving them through it.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:21):

Yes. Yes. And I love that you find those opportunities for education because when you educate others, it empowers your child. And he, I mean, he indirectly feels that from the support of the adults surrounding him, but also it further cements that "I've got somebody in my camp" feeling when he knows that you've got his back.

Cheryl Cardall (24:49):

Well. And I think one more thing if I can share is impairing your kids to understand their brain. Um, we have books that we've read that teach him about anxiety. I mean, he's my youngest child that teach my other kids about what anxiety is and that anxiety doesn't have to be the boss of you. This is what it is. This is why you're feeling this way, and for them to understand that really empowers them to feel like they can be in charge.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:16):

Wow. That's beautiful. Yes. I love it, awareness breeds, education and education brings empowerment. And I feel like that hits all of those steps in that. Awesome. So we're going to take a short break. And when we come back, I'm going to ask Cheryl for her Healthy Screen Habit.

Ad Break

Hillary Wilkinson (25:40):

So we're back. I'm talking with Cheryl, Cardall the mom behind the fight, like a mother podcast. So Cheryl, on every episode of the healthy screen habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one?

Cheryl Cardall (26:09):

What I do,  and I shared it a little bit before, but I would say don't let tech separate you from your kids, empower them and you together to come together, communicate, and don't give screens all the power.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:27):

I love that. Right? Give up the power struggles and don't give screens all the power of the consequences in the rewards, in your relationship. Excellent. Well, I greatly encourage our listeners to go check out the Fight Like a Mother podcast. I guarantee you will learn so much and in your learning, you will empower others. Um, Cheryl, are there other platforms they could find you on?

Cheryl Cardall (26:56):

You can find me on Instagram. Uh, just under my name, Cheryl Cardall or you can, I'm also there with Fight Like A Mother podcast on Instagram. You can go to my website FightLikeAMotherpodcast.com and I am on Facebook, but not nearly as active as I am on Instagram.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:14):

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being here. You're a mom who fights, but I'll stand by your side any day.

Cheryl Cardall (27:21):

Thanks Hillary. Thanks for having me.