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Show Transcript:

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

My guest today knew all about the ongoing mental health crisis in youth and wanted to find out how to prevent it. Through her research, she was able to find factors that could reduce mental health risk. It turns out the lowest hanging fruit, and the biggest factor was addressing digital wellbeing. But you knew that because you're listening here. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Sajita Setia.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (00:35)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It's a pleasure to be here with you today, uh, on Healthy Screen Habits podcast, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:46)

Same. I'm just gonna mention that Dr. Satia is talking to us from New Zealand today, so that is very exciting. And Sajita, you have clearly made a big splash in the pond of digital wellness. You've presented all over the world and are passionate about helping families and schools raise resilient, balanced young people in a world of constant screens. What led you to this line of focus?  How did you get to be this digital wellbeing expert?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (01:23)

Um, so my story is to some extent similar to your story, Hilary. It also began during the pandemic in my own home with my pre-teen, who is currently, who is now 15 years old. Um, it was a challenging time for everybody with virtual learning, and my husband had to be in Singapore at that time, uh, for some clinical programs. So I was all alone with two kids, managing work, family, everything, virtual learning. Uh, my son, who was 11 at that time, uh, he used to play chess a lot. He was never into other video games. And, you know, I felt, okay, chess is good, online chess, uh, and during pandemic it was, of course, online because that's how he was playing with his friends, with bots. And he would spend hours on chess. So I spoke to physicians, teachers, chess coaches, and they're like, it's okay.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (02:18)

It's good for him, it's good for his brain. But I noticed mood changes, behavior changes, which many just attributed to growing up, puberty. And I felt, no, there is a tension between what we call good screen time. It doesn't really matter what they watch because chess is supposed to be good, and what I see in real life, so I made some changes because, you know, they say Mom knows the best. I'm like, no, something is wrong. It's sleep disruption for sure. And I saw big improvements, not just in his mood, but in terms of, you know, conflicts that we would have around screen time relationships. And then I started researching. I got really passionate about it. I started partnering with universities and schools, and I am an implementation science expert. There is a clear link between the mental health crisis that we see and poor screen habits, but it's so under spoken, I think if we can just target that, I'm not saying it's the only reason. There are socioeconomic aspects, there are other aspects, you know, family values, um, the other support that children get.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (04:37)

But if we can get address digital wellbeing, we have conquered, I would say 90% of the battle. It's easy to address. It doesn't cost anything. All it needs is proper education, personalized program at times. But most of the times in most of the families, it can be solved and it would make everybody happy. It will re resolve conflicts. Most of the conflicts as I see around, especially starting with pre-teen years, when children, they want their own independence and they have their own moods. And unfortunately that's the time most of the families would provide a cell phone, a smartphone to children. It's a very tricky situation. You see, they are going through puberty, they are being defensive, and they are given something which they don't know how to handle. I would tell all the parents, listener, listeners out there, don't blame yourself. Please don't blame your kids. Build a system that protects digital wellbeing because it's the deepest act of self-care in today's loud text saturated digital world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:53)

I love that. I love that phrase. Yeah. And I think, um, what you're talking about is very identifiable to anybody who has lived through tech withdrawal or a tech meltdown. They, they've seen it in their own house where the outsized emotional outburst from just withdrawal of tech. And I love how you provide this translational piece between the research to practicum, you know, what people can do. So do you have any top tips in making the biggest difference as far as managing these behaviors?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (06:40)

Absolutely. So, uh, in my workshops that I conduct with children, I teach them through games. Children love games, so I tell them the game rule is: name it, move it, time it. So we are competing with technology, and if we just give up and just do whatever technology is designed to do, we can never win because the apps are designed to make us lose track of time. And this happens with everybody. It happens with me. It happens with you. And imagine children where their brain is not developed as much as ours, and they're still learning a lot of things. Self-esteem, online comparison is so strong, it's hard for them to differentiate what is fake and what is real. Technology is always going to win. So let's frame it as a game and let them know all through this time you have been playing without any game rules.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (07:40)

Mm. And your opponent, which is the technology, has all the cheat codes, knows all the strategies, of course you will lose. So when we phrase it as a game, the biggest shift that happens is we empower them. They stop blaming themselves. So I feel parents, families and kids are in a very tricky situation with guilt and blame, and we have to move away from it. We can never empower anybody by putting the blame and putting them into that guilt trap cycle. So we name it as a game, phrase it as a game. We first empower them, bring them into their self-respect, and it's very important. And now the biggest, the easiest winning trick is when you're competing with an, with an opponent. Imagine taking your opponent's strongest weapon away so you have great chances of winning. Now, technology as it's designed to make us lose track of time, we need to keep it out of sight.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (08:41)

So we need to keep it outside out of sight. When we are doing any focus work, learning a skill, doing homework, family time, and especially when we are sleeping, you know, I mean, it, it doesn't work In most of the cases, even with adults, we say, okay, phone is alarm. I I can put it on flight mode, on silent. It's a temptation. Mm-hmm . We don't let our kids sleep with candies when they're toddlers. We take candies away, we put them away, we give them when it's the time. So visibility drives temptation. Um, so these were the simple rules that I started within my family that changed our dynamics. And even it helped me form better relationships with my partner, with my children. We take out the, the guilt trap, and we prioritize family time. We keep the temptations away. So phone parking, uh, during bedtime, everybody's phone needs to go at a proper parking place.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (09:40)

It's not just kids, it's also adults. So we are role models. So parents, kids would end up modeling our behavior and then we time it. So name it, it's a game. Okay? We are playing against technology. Technology can be a tool, but we should not let it become a trap. We move it, move it out of sight, and then time it. So it's, it's protection. It's not a punishment timing, it, we have to phrase it as a protection. Decide the time before you start, use a timer and you need your parents' sidekick to help. It's one team. It's not our child versus technology. It's, it's the family versus the algorithm, which is so strong. So the family has to be together. So if a child wants to watch, let's say YouTube, we can agree, “okay, you have done your homework, you have done, you know, you have spent your time.”

Dr. Sajita Setia: (10:35) 

We are not saying no technology is bad, you can't do, because then all the other kids are doing, and our kids, we would end up spoiling our relationship because we would come there as a dictator, which we definitely are not. It's just the connection and communication has to be really, uh, done in a proper manner. And we can agree, let's say 30 minutes timer on, but the device stays in a shared place, like in a living room, not in the bedroom. Because we need to be careful what the, we are watching what is being fed. Um, to some extent we can control, but the easiest way is to put it somewhere in the living room. And then again, at dinner, at bedtime, we have our devices parked at one place. 

Dr. Sajita Setia: (11:22)

I think we also have to take away the word addicted. You know, our child is not addicted, and then the child stays with that label throughout the life. It jeopardizes self-esteem. You are not addicted. Technology is strong. But yes, we are learning strategies to win and we will win because we are one team and we will win.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:46)

Well, that speaks to your, um, kind of your emphasis on empowerment is, you know, putting, putting the child in the driver's seat, so, or the family, putting the family in the driver's seat. So I love it. Name it, move it time it, and for any family who is looking for a stepping stone to start those conversations, I highly recommend you check out our family tech plan, which is a free downloadable tool. Tool on our website. So when we have to, uh, we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Satia more about practical tools for helping kids handle social rules around social media and how that social media ban in Australia is going.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (14:07)

I'm speaking with Dr. Sajita Satia, a physician and published researcher who turns complex research into simple, practical tools for families. So last year, Australia put in place a social media ban for the under-16 crowd. And I am embarrassed to admit I have not followed this as well as I might have. This is where I rely on my, on my guests to keep me informed. But I'm just wondering, I know you're not in Australia, but they're, they're sort of neighbors, . Um, do you have a sense of how this is all going?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (14:52)

Absolutely. And I'm raised, I'm, I'm so glad that you raised this. So, um, we are close neighbors and we are really similar countries, Australia and New Zealand. New Zealand is also now going for Before 16. And let's see what happens. It's a great start, I would say. Uh, but it's reduction. It's not perfection. Definitely good intentions. It's too early to say what would happen. So basically from 10th of December, 2025, all major social media platforms must take reasonable steps to prevent under sixteens from holding accounts. Uh, penalties apply to the companies and not families, which is good. Um, and the government expects that it would affect around 4.7 million under 16 accounts that would be deactivated, removed or restricted. Um, it's a mixed response, I would say, you know, and they would be workarounds like children using VPNs. Alternative apps are coming up. It's a big thriving business for alternative social media, uh, borrowed accounts.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (15:57)

And there's a debate about privacy, age su, you know, displacement in other space spaces. Uh, I am hopeful, but to me it's again, a bandaid. It's, it's very similar to removing school, you know, phones from schools, you know, phone ban in schools. It's, it's, it's a great bandaid and definitely good intentions, but it's treating symptoms and the disease. Kids need education. They need media literacy. They need skills. Uh, they have their own reasons for doing it. Apparently. There are many groups that encourage poor mental health and self-harm behavior. Uh, especially there are big online gangs and they target girls, and it's easy for them to say that, you know, we didn't do anything. We are not to be blamed because the victim is self-harming. And if kids are exposed to a lot of this information online. Plus they are exposed to a lot of other unfiltered content.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (17:08)

They are in danger if they're not educated. And banning social media accounts, at least for my family, if I say it'll give me higher weight to convince my children what happens with social media. Yeah. So I would come, yeah, so it'll gimme weight. So I'm hopeful, but I have heard conflicting reviews and some are not in favor, and I respect everybody's opinion.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:06)

Let's, um, kind of talk a little bit more about that impact of social media, not just on girls, because we have this whole manosphere that happens with our boys. It's a very toxic place for them to be as well. But so, you know, compare and despair is this term given to the sadness or feelings of low self-esteem that happen after scrolling on social media. And anybody who has spent any amount of time on social media, I'm sure, will recognize that feeling. It's almost like a, a slight jealousy. You're comparing your life against somebody's highlight reel. So amongst other things, it leaves kids feeling isolated. It's people feeling isolated despite large numbers of followers or chat groups or whatever. And how do you propose that families can navigate this area once their kids do have social media?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (19:18)

So the strongest pattern in research, uh, screens do affect mood and behavior. And there are many drivers. So we need to focus on the drivers, like why do they affect mood, especially in girls the com online comparison. So the first top driver, which I would list is sleep deprivation. And it's also the easiest to fix. And that's what I noticed with my son. Uh, we are, we are all, we know since our children were little babies and toddlers, why sleep is so important to their mood. So if you can target sleep deprivation, you know, as I said, name it, move it, time it, move it away from your bedroom. So that driver we have sorted. And then you would notice that a lot of shared decision making discussion gets easier if kids are well rested, when they are tired, grumpy.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (20:23)

you should not use that time for any discussion. Let them get dressed, let them get in a better state of mind, and then you discuss. So yes, sleep deprivation. Second is this continuous flow of dopamine, which they get without doing anything. So dopamine is not bad. So dopamine is a motivational hormone, or a chemical which is secreted in the brain, and it is all for good. You know, it, it helps us feel good through motivation. Yes, we have done something. But what social media in this continuous binge watching it does is that it gives this dopamine a feel good, good effort, accomplishment, feeling without doing anything real.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (21:33)

So we have to target dopamine towards the real authentic purpose and motivation. They need motivation, they need goals. So we have to just switch it more for real life, social networking. And, and as you might have seen, Gen Zs and the young generation, they're deteriorating in their social skills. They'll rather avoid a social interaction. So they are just using their phones, okay, I don't wanna talk. There's somebody at home. I don't wanna talk. I just want to be in my room. You know, I can get my own dopamine without doing anything, you know, and I can do. The third, as you pointed out, is the negative comparison, which affects girls way more. So the problem, everybody would debate, you know, some people would say, oh, no, you know, social media is all good. The bands are just brainwashed.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (22:31)

So, so they need to be on social media to face the real life. True. But social media is basically designed for adults, and it's getting stronger, faster day by day with all the AI tools to hook our attention. And they are making money, you know, they run ads. So we lose our time, focus, productivity, and we are a target. So once we educate children, they want to protect themselves. At the end of the day, they are a target. So you have to be mindful of your time because if you lose your time and your mood, you are losing and technology is winning. Um, but the research also points out that all the negative effects for social media, they affect young girls way more than boys. I would agree. It's, it's it's biology. But then also we have to keep in mind, boys are not so generally clingy towards Instagram or social media.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (23:31)

They're more happy with YouTube shorts, online gaming, Roblox, Fortnight. And again, those online gamings are also nowadays powered by AI. So, you know, for the experience, and sometimes they show all the violent content and inappropriate, they're not filtered. And at times, you know, grooming on also happens online. They're also threats. But I don't think they are to the extent that our children lose confidence, self-esteem through binge use, or we, I call it as a doom scrolling. So doom scrolling is basically anything that makes you lose track of time, you lose your confidence, your self-esteem, negative comparison. Uh, and as you said, they end up comparing their real life with somebody's filtered life. So it's not real. Mm-hmm . Um, and, and of course emotional overload also, especially in girls. So we need to target individual factors. And these behaviors are, they vary from family to family.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (24:35)

And some families, I would say even boys are into Instagram. It's, it's less common, but it can be seen in general, I would say boys are into video gaming. They lose track of time. They have, uh, a laptop. I mean, of course they may say, oh, I need it for schoolwork, but they're on Roblox or Fortnite at night, and it's very common. And, and I just go around and talk to kids. Um, and many of them, they confess, yes, you know, I wake up, I, I can't sleep at night. I, I sleep like 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM I'm playing video games. No, my parents don't know. And of course the child is saying, “yes, I went to bed at at 9:00 PM” or whenever we went to bed, and the child is grumpy. And parents are like, “what's happening?” Right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:19)

So when we say, say, yeah, because they just going to bed does not mean going to sleep. . Absolutely. That's why we have to remove technology from the bedrooms.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (25:28)

Absolutely. It's, it's the easiest thing to do. It just needs some convincing. You know, convert doom, scrolling into intentional bloom scrolling. You can also learn a lot online. Mm-hmm . Uh, a lot of learning is happening online. So bloom scrolling, all those accounts that help you grow, grow, educational, motivational, you can subscribe to them. So keep on curating your feed, especially for girls. It's very important. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:44)

I love that. I love that. Turn doom scrolling to bloom scrolling. That's great. Yes. Oh, so this season, our theme is from first screens to crisis moments. And I love your focus on proactive use of resilience skills and digital management. And I think in employing the management component, the goal is not to reach those crisis moments or to help people through the crisis moments. And I know you have some great, emotional intelligence tools that you recommend parents teach. Could you share a few of those?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (27:28)

Yeah, absolutely. So one of them is basically the, the triangle, the bidirectional relationship between thoughts, feelings, and behavior. Often we are not aware of what we are thinking or what brings about change in our thought processes. Uh, it's mindfulness, it's meditation. I'm sure experienced meditators can recognize their negative thinking pattern in seconds or minutes. But for most of us, especially for children, they're never aware what's going on in their head. And oftentimes we see a lot of somatic or the effects on body. So yes, they have upset tummy, uh, they have a lot of physical pain, but they, you can't really trace out what's the cause, it's anxiety. And I would say most of the problems in young people are related to low mood, depression, and anxiety. It just, it doesn't look like that. They're still high functioning. Uh, they are quite competent, but unfortunately, we don't know what's going on in their head.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (28:40)

So teach the triangle to your children. Ask yourself what you are feeling. And after you have sort of determined what you feel, go back and ask yourself, what were you thinking? And then ask yourself, why was I thinking that? If they're spending too much time on social media, it's quite obvious they're being affected, especially if they're posting, you know, how, what's the traction of my photo that I posted? Oh, my friend got these many likes, or this boy commented. So the, these things are really important for a child to know. And again, reinforcing its filtered life and giving them purpose, passion in life basically deviates the online pull that we see. And there are studies to support that. So children who have a higher purpose, related to offline life, of course, they don't get affected by the likes and the comments and the negative comparison they get, they, they are more focused about achieving their goals.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (29:45)

So connect your child with a higher purpose. You know, you are sent to this world to bring about a change and just keep them away from the attraction. You know, that is shown in the fake world. We are not gonna compare a fake world with a real life. And this is basically, as you said, emotional intelligence where we use feelings as a dashboard. So feelings can predict everything. And I would say try not to focus on behavior, because behavior is just an iceberg. What's going on in their head, within their body is really complicated. When they are in a bad mood, that's not a time for a conversation. Let them get good rest and then build a connection. You know, do something together. It could be cooking, involve them in household work, but be there with them. You know, not just delegate. We are together as a team.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (30:39)

Use technology mindfully in the right way, but your life is all about giving the best to yourself and others. And that's how we can protect our kids. Curating is really important to get away from binge scrolling. So clean up what your brain is consuming, unfollow or block or mute the accounts that make you feel not enough. Follow the creators that help you learn, feel calm and build skills. There are also really great teen role models who talk about, um, you know, environment. They talk about really great bringing difference in the world, bridging the rich poor gap, giving to this world so they can also follow those accounts. So unsubscribe from those rabbit holes channels, which are just meant to make you feel that you're not good enough. Compare you know, the body image, and subscribe to the ones that help you teach, grow, and inspire.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:00)

Lovely. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Satia for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (32:25)

I'm speaking with Dr. Sajita Satia, all the way from New Zealand. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dr. Sajita Setia: (32:49)

I'm glad you raised it. And I would say one tip which can change your family dynamics for good is focusing on your child's sleep. It's the biggest asset to their productivity and happy mood for them to thrive in life. Focus on their sleep. When they can think calmly, think in the right direction, they will be ready to make decisions with you. Get involved in family shared decision making about phone parking, being vigilant on social media, using AI mindfully, being ready to learn from you. And, and understand that not to believe anything that they see online, first of all. So protect their sleep. They would be ready, they would absorb all the nuggets like a sponge if their mind and brain has rested well. Um, and simplest way to protect sleep is devices out of the bedroom for everybody, not just children. Also parents, go and  Spend $10 to buy an alarm clock. Your phone doesn't need to be your alarm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:05)

I could not agree more. It's one of our top five healthy screen habits.  As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode, as well as a link to more info about Dr. Satia's work. So you do this by going to healthy screen habits.org, click the podcast button and find this episode. Sajita, thank you very much for your time today and for everything you do to help to create this balanced world for all of our kids.

Dr. Sajita Setia: (34:43)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It was such a pleasure, and I, I'm really proud of all the great work you are doing, which is much needed. And I wish you all the best. And to all the listeners out there, you are wonderful pa parents in a very loud digital world, and you're very loving, and your child will thrive in life with the digital wellbeing. So keep going. Thank you.