Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

It's my birthday. And no matter how many candles I am putting on a cake, I always love this day. I like the cards, I like the well wishes, I like the special treats. And always since the time I was very small, I always love a party. My guest today knows a lot about birthday parties. He's the founder and CEO of Game Truck, the nation's largest franchise system for mobile video game parties. He is passionate though about creating greater human connection and feelings of belonging through play. Who doesn't love that? Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Scott Novis!

Scott Novis: (00:56)

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:00)

Scott, I definitely wanna get into the whole Game Truck thing, but first let's kind of give folks some background on yourself. You have some serious street cred when it comes to video games, as I understand you were a game developer

Scott Novis: (01:17)

With Yeah. Um, I like the way I phrase, this is my one minute resume. So I have two engineering degrees. I'm named on 11 patents. My game-ology is 15 published titles for PlayStation, Xbox, and Nintendo. Um, I left the Walt Disney Company, where I was a vice president building their Nintendo Center of Excellence, to found a game truck. And so over the last, oh my gosh, it's been a minute… since the early 2000s, um, uh, we have entertained over 14 million kids. Um, so we do a lot with, and on a personal level, what I'm almost proud of more than any of the career stuff is, I was a youth baseball coach for 15 years. So I've been really involved in, um, on that coaching, play side of things for a very long time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:04)

Okay. So you've got your name on a lot of like patents and games that you've developed. You really, really know this space. And what I, just out of curiosity, what is it that you like most about video games?

Scott Novis: (02:18)

Well, so here's the thing about video games for me is for me it's applied psychology, right? It's storytelling in the second person. It's your story, it's your experience. So we're gonna give you the controller. So how do we create a situation for you that is engaging and exciting? And, um, you know, that was really it is that when we were developing games, the focus was on that type of entertainment where you're participating. So many other forms of entertainment are broadcast. So we create something and you just stand there and receive it. And I'm not That's awesome. But in a well-designed video game, we're creating an experience for you. And so you're participating, you're contributing, and if you don't play, nothing happens. So from that point of view, that's what I love the best about video games is when we created those environments and situations for people to interact in engaging in fun ways. Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:15)

And I think that the thing that most parents run up against with video games is this sort of struggle. I know, at least in my house, it's for sure, it's this struggle of how to end game time without fighting. So do you have tips on how to do

Scott Novis: (03:32)

That? Oh yeah, for sure. So, um, one of the things that, uh, I call it the cheat code, right? What's a cheat code? It's what's the little code so that I can have a superpower and get around this hard problem in a game. Um, and I wanna give that to parents. And so there's like three things, and one of them is how do you end game time without a fight? And the beauty is everything I'm gonna tell you, your kid will validate, they will confirm everything I'm saying. Step one is part of the problem for parents is that it is, you don't know how the game ends and there's not one way they end. And that's one of the things that they, there's such a broad range. There's not like one kind of video game. There's a bunch of different ones. And sometimes games can be paused.

Scott Novis: (04:15)

They can be saved whenever you want, but sometimes they can't. And that's kinda weird to parents is when they think about, what do you mean I can't save it? There are online multiplayer games that if you pause, you're dead. Like you're gonna lose everything you did. And you might even be on a team like, I don't know, a single parent all the years I coached who would walk out in the middle of a baseball game with runners on base, their son's on the mound about ready to throw the ball and grab ‘em by the scruff of the met going, we're gonna dinner now and fallen away. Nobody would ever do that. Mm-hmm . However that happens to gamers all the time because the normal cues that a parent would look at are invisible. They just see a kid wearing a headset in front of a screen. They don't see the other team.

Scott Novis: (04:59)

They can't even hear 'em. They don't know they're playing against somebody else. And they might not even be aware there's an audience. So the psychology of the experience for the player is nearly identical to that kid on the mound, is that they're in the midst of this social, interdependent, incredibly dynamic situation with an audience. And all of a sudden a parent comes in and says, “Turn it off.” It's devastating. So part of the key is you wanna understand what kind of game is this? Who are you playing and how does it end? Like, so there's pro tip number one, ask your child, “How does this game end? Can you save it?” Can you pause it? And that is a key piece of information, and you're gonna get two things out of that. One better understanding. But two, you're gonna start to have a better conversation with your kid about their gaming.

Scott Novis: (05:47)

'cause now you're showing more interest into a very specific detail and you can make them stay on topic with that. How does it end? Help me understand. How does it end? If they wander off in other details, bring it back. How does it end? And from that space, you're able to negotiate the end before they start. And so when we look at, “Hey, you know, we gotta go to grandma's at five, are you sure you wanna get on this game with your friends, um, where you don't know you're gonna be able to end it on time or not? Or would you rather play something that could be paused whenever and take it with you?” In the old days of the Nintendo DS or Game Boy, those were like, that was easy. You're like, yeah, just hit pause. Those games all stop. Um, and you could just walk away without losing any work or anything else.

Scott Novis: (06:34)

But understanding how those games end, it makes a huge difference. And then you can basically give the choice to the kid, and that reinforces their sense of agency and autonomy. Mm-hmm . You choose what game is it gonna be and how are you gonna end this so we leave on time? And that negotiation also has the advantage as it moves a little control off the parent onto the child. Sure. And that what we're trying to do is elevate that sense of be responsible, I trust you to be responsible with this. How are you gonna choose so that we meet our criteria and end on time, and in a different situation we might, you know, it's a, it's a weekend we could be a little bit more flexible. You're like, okay, are you playing with friends? I can give, you know, we can have a fuzzier ending.

Scott Novis: (07:20)

And here's my second pro tip. So at Game Truck, we end 3000 parties a month without a fight. How do we do it? Don't yell at the kids. Don't even touch 'em. Flick the lights in the room they're in. Humans are super sensitive to peripheral vision. Mm-hmm. And so if lights start going on and off, it will break their concentration and they're gonna look up at that moment. You have the opportunity to look 'em in the eye. And we recommended doing this about 10 minutes, five minutes before they have to break. And you can look 'em, and you can now make that connection in a very quiet calm tone of voice. Say you have 10 minutes to wrap this up. Almost every single online game can be wrapped up in 10 minutes. Okay. Like, it's really, really rare. And that's when you wanna know, like, you know, if they're about to win a game of Fortnite Yeah.

Scott Novis: (08:14)

That can run, but the longest run of that is like half an hour. So, but you wanna know these things like what are you caught up in? But you know, a most matches are in the five to 10 minute range. So if you're going 10 minutes, 95% of games can be wrapped up in that amount of time. There's a few that can't. But if we're dealing, you know, those games that are longer tend to be pretty extreme. Mm-hmm . So, you know, I'm, and your gamer will tell you like, this game could last this long. You wanna know that before they start. But the 10 minute warning in the flashing lights almost always -”What?” Yeah. Now you've got their attention. Now you can talk to 'em, reaffirm the choice they made. And most parents tell me that's like magic.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:57)

That's great. Um, so in the event that it's like an afternoon and the game, the, uh, room that they're playing in does not have a light switch. I'm just thinking like even if a parent like, you can wave a jacket, do something like that. Yes. Like you're saying, like a visual cue in the peripheral vision. Just a Yeah. Peripheral vision to break there. I'm just trying to think of like all the circumstances that, that might close the blinds help. Yeah. Yeah. All

Scott Novis: (09:25)

Of a sudden you change the lighting, it's the sensitivity to lighting.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:28)

Sure. Sure. That's, this is so helpful. I can tell you, as a mom of a gamer, one of my greatest concerns has always been about addictive behavior. Mm-hmm . And how can we identify addictive games versus, but I mean, to use the phrase lightly a healthy, healthy online play. Like, well, what, what is, how do you do? Are there,

Scott Novis: (10:01)

Okay, so I

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:02)

Key indicators

Scott Novis: (10:03)

The, it's a really good question. Um, and the simple rule that I've been sharing with parents is if you want the, the hack, um, buy your games, pay for your games, and you, you use the word online and if you're really concerned about it, pay for games that do not require online play. And here's why. Um, you know, I can get in all the, the, the, the technicalities behind it, but let me give you why this works. Mm-hmm . Number one, you become the customer of that developer. You, the person that cu that that developer's actually trying to satisfy. You're the person they're trying to entertain. Um, and if you take away online play, that means they're trying to design an experience that really will engage you. They're not going to make money stealing your attention and selling it to someone else. Right. Um, that is probably one of the biggest problems we have right now is that we've created companies that have insane market valuations that do not actually look after or nor do they have any interest in satisfying their users. They see the users

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:08)

As no, quite opposite.

Scott Novis: (11:09)

Yeah. Yeah. They're the fuel for their business model. Don't be the fuel for somebody's business model. It's not even like you're the product, they'll just burn you out. Yeah. And they don't care because they're gonna go get more people. Mm-hmm . Um, so when you're paying to be entertained, that developer is actually trying to create an experience that is satisfying to you. And the, okay, so here's the technical thing. What they're doing in the background is, it's called the hook loop. Um, they've developed and understood from psychology that humans don't learn the way we think we learn. There's actually some trial and error involved in it. And it's unconscious behavior. It happens below our level of consciousness. And so it's called a variable ratio reward schedule. So what they're doing is they go through this loop or they give you a queue, they want you to exhibit a behavior.

Scott Novis: (12:02)

So they're training you to behave a specific way, and then they randomly give you some reward. And what's unique to humans over all other mammals is that we can invest some of ourselves in the product. So if they can get you to customize, so this is what you hear about skins and you hear about, oh, I gotta buy this. As soon as you can put your fingerprints on it, it reinforces the value of that behavior loop. Then they go back to the queue. And the, the, the gold medal for the people that are selling addiction is self-queuing. Where the game no longer has to notify you, you're doing it yourself. So this is like that nicotine of like, oh, I gotta have one. I gotta have one. So they can get you on that little wheel. Um, they are now an action.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:43)

What do you mean by that? What do you mean the game no longer has to notify you? What do you mean by that?

Scott Novis: (12:48)

Um, so games that are driven by addiction. Another cue is that they're gonna prompt you when it's time to play. They're gonna try to notify you on your phone, your tablet. Like I am not a fan of phone and tablet games for kids at all, period. Mm-hmm . Um, I'm not a big fan of like, having those devices around. And you got a lot of great content and other people that are experts in that. My expertise is like, I, when I buy a, uh, a video game console, I'm buying a console. Nobody can text me on it. Nobody can, they can't send me alerts. They can't send me notifications. So when you, but you get a Chromebook, you get a pc, you get a laptop, what's one of the first things they ask you is, can I enable notifications? No. No, you can't, don't do that.

Scott Novis: (13:35)

So what if a game needs to notify you? There's only one reason they need to notify you. 'cause they want to get you addicted. Right. 'cause it's the cue. It is the, oh, you need to do this now. You need to water the flowers. You need to feed the digital animal. You need to check the market. Oh, there's messages. There's anything they can think of to get your attention. It's time for you to play. That's the beginning of the thing. So once they do that, then you're supposed to do something. Maybe you'll get this reward. And then if you can customize it, you become even more invested in the loop. Gotcha. And self-queuing is where they no longer need to send you notifications. Your brain is doing it for you. And here's what they're doing is dopamine is really useful as there are four hormones you need to thrive.

Scott Novis: (14:23)

And it's like dopamine, cortisol, oxytocin, and serotonin. Um, but dopamine doesn't create satisfaction. It creates craving. You wanna do it again. And so if they oversaturate your dopamine mm-hmm . You can now begin to get into that loop where you have to do it without them notifying you. So when I say pay for your games, if you buy a, typically a game console, a dedicated gaming device, you're gonna have way more control, way fewer notifications, and you can unplug the darn thing from the internet - and still play and be entertained! So a lot of the tools they have to basically trap you just, they go away and they're easy to turn off. When you're on a internet enabled device, you have to be on the internet to engage and play. You are at risk. And I will say this, I tell parents all the time, “Get rid of Roblox, delete it, never play it. Get rid of that thing.” Um, for a variety of reasons, there are absolutely zero protections for children on that platform. And they tried to charge and nobody wanted to pay for it. So they flipped over to a social media model. Um, and their $27 billion market valuation is based purely on user hours. Wow. And here's another thing, uh, um, I want parents to know, kids have a very different experience with games than adults do. 'cause their brains aren't finished.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:51)

Yeah. So let's talk about that. Yeah. Um, we gotta take a quick break. Sure. But I wanna talk about why kids are more vulnerable, vulnerable than adults online. 

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Hillary Wilkinson: (17:02)

I'm speaking with Scott Novis, dad of three, and video game savant. Scott, let's talk about what we were getting into right before the break. So you were talking about why kids are particularly vulnerable as opposed to like kids' brains more so than adults when comes for sure to the addictive nature of video games. Can you expand on that?

Scott Novis: (17:30)

Yeah, a hundred percent. So this ties into, um, humans are unique, uh, in a, in a couple of ways. And one of them is we're the only mammal that our brain quadruples in size after birth. Um, whales might have a bigger brain, but it never gets bigger. Um, chimpanzees are number two, their brain doubles. Our goes to fourfold. But at five years old, that brain's about 90% of the size it'll be as an adult. And it actually has more connections than adults do, then we do something else that is totally unique in the animal kingdom. Every other mammal goes from birth to reproduction as fast as possible. Our neighbor's dog had our puppy when she was three years old! But at five, humans pause for seven years. What is going on in those seven years? In those seven years? That's the window where we absorb our culture.

Scott Novis: (18:18)

Mm. If we took you and dropped you in China, in that window, you would grow up feeling Chinese. You would speak fluently. Natively. You would understand the culture, the inside jokes, like all of it. But if we pulled you like before nine, you'd forget it. If we dropped you in after about 12 or 13, um, you'd always feel like a foreigner. So, kids have a very specific job in that age range. Now, the thing that protects us from distractions is called executive function. And it's part of the prefrontal cortex. It's like right above your right eyebrow that does not begin to develop until they're teenagers.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:58)

 Mm-hmm 

Scott Novis: (18:59)

The thing that protects you from distraction, your children literally do not have.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:04)

Yeah. And it's crazy because, so, you know, my background's in child development and Eric Erickson specifically designated that time of ages seven to 11. Mm-hmm . He discussed things in rules of like primary conflicts. And with him it was industry versus inferiority. And they're working at that time. What they're working on is building competence. Yeah. So that's when they're developing self-confidence and when they show competence in various things. And alternatively, they can also develop a sense of inferiority when they lack competencies.

Scott Novis: (19:43)

Yes. And spot on, like all of this other, a lot of emotional foundations are being built in that area. So what is happening with boys and girls? And I'll say that because I'm in the video game industry, I have a better grasp on, let's say, you know, boy, more boys play games than girls. But this is more, it's not exclusive. Right. There's always crossover and blending. But mostly, boys seek agency. They're trying to act things out. So, video games frustrate a boy's desire for agency because they give them a simulation of agency without giving them real agency. Mm. Girls seek community, that sense of communing and social media frustrates that by giving 'em something that is a simulation of community, but it is not real community. So when we're getting into this concern about addiction, and a lot of moms come to me because it, it does make me sad 'cause they come to me when it's almost too late to do something is when their kids are 20 or older and they're stuck, how do we keep 'em from getting stuck?

Scott Novis: (20:49)

Be really sensitive in that window from that sort of seven to 12 mm-hmm . They all kids need lots of in-person face-to-face interaction. Mm-hmm . Humans are also unique. We're the only animals scholar whites of the eyes. We read facial expressions. Other animals don't do that. But if we're only staring at a piece of glass, we're literally seeing this rise of a thing. A teacher friend of mine called synthetic autism. I had a kid, the mom introduced us to a program we were running. She goes, my son is not autistic. What a weird way to introduce your kid. Why would you tell, tell somebody that? Because he behaves like he is. 'cause he grew up staring at a piece of glass. So he has no concept of how his actions, his facial expressions, his tone of voice affect anyone else, that gets developed in that window. This is why when we talk about managing screen time, it's not about hours. It's like, flip it. How much can you maximize the amount of time your children spend with other children their age so they can learn these vital human interaction, social emotional skills. Right. And that's what we want to maximize. Right.

Scott Novis: (22:03)

And you can do that with games. You can create a party at your house in your living room and get kids together. Let 'em game for a while, then kick 'em out or find other. But like, that's the thing we're trying to maximize is this social interaction with the kids.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:17)

Right. And this whole concept of kids developing agency and developing, you know, it's, it's also one of those things where it translates to clout with within their peer group. Mm-hmm . So that's where I think video games also kind of hijack this. Where it's like they start defining themselves and defining their clout by the levels that they're achieving in video games. But those competencies do not translate to just, like you were saying, the social interactions, the face, you know, but it's like competence builds confidence.

Scott Novis: (22:57)

So here's the third tip is like, when I talk about screen time, for me it's about maximizing that social interaction. So the third part, like how do you take this fake achievement? It's not exactly fake. So here's what the core games are doing. So what I tell parents all the time is never tell your kids, “Video games are a waste of time.” If you are a casual game player, let's say you play Candy Crush or something on your phone, you can be totally forgiven for thinking video games are a waste of time, 'cause those are, they're engineered to waste your time, but your kid is having a different experience. We're designing games that are built on what's called intrinsic motivation. The psychological theory is self-determination theory. We want to challenge their skill development.

Scott Novis: (23:45)

We wanna give them a sense of autonomy. They choose and give them purpose. And what we learn in video games is we can spoof purpose. Purpose means the work you do benefits somebody you know or care about. Mm-hmm. Well, there is no princess, no aliens are invading the planet that can be faked. But the first two are critical. Are you doing something hard? Can you learn how to do it? If you understand that, then when you talk to your child about their video gaming, that's what you wanna zero in on. You want to talk to them like it's a job. What are you working on? What is hard about that for you? How are you overcoming that problem? What are you struggling with? The reason you wanna do this is one, you're gonna have radically different conversations with your kids. Two, you can use that information to help them build an identity as someone that faces hard problems and persists until they develop skill.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:37)

Not just as a gamer.

Scott Novis: (24:38)

Correct. So you can say, well, remember when you were working on this thing in Pokemon and you had to work really hard to go find that shiny Pokemon. Tell me how this is different. Mm-hmm. Tell me how this assignment you're working on in school is different and you can begin to translate their personal experiences into other experiences in their life. And I've heard from other parents that they've had more success with this of leveraging something they're passionate about to get interested in other areas than it is to say that's a waste of time. 'cause the kids don't hear that video games a waste of time. They hear facing hard problems, developing skills and persisting is a waste of time. 'cause that's what a game is to them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:20)

Mm-hmm .

Scott Novis: (25:21)

Yeah. So you can use that mechanism to, and to funnel a conversation and then use what they tell you in the conversation to help them build their self-image as someone who does hard things. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:34)

Right. Right. And just little parenting hack from this side of the, this side. Uh, the, one of the best ways also to build that competence is through chores. Yeah. As it turns out, you know, being a part of the collective effort of just keeping the household running. And that's, I mean, my wife, you talk about something that never goes away, is the laundry. 

Scott Novis: (25:56)

Yeah. Well, and my wife used game terminology with the kids like, Hey, you can grind out, you know, leveling up in the game. Why don't you grind out your laundry? 

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:05)

Perfect,

Perfect.

Scott Novis: (26:06)

Right. And they're like, okay.

 It's just like, but there's this, you're taking the context of where they're, they're exercising some kind of agency and you're pulling it into the world where you gotta do real things too. What I wanna do is give parents tools to take what gaming can do for kids and make it easier for them to, we want kids to have a better future, right? Yeah. We want them to be, you know, not get stuck and see themselves as somebody, somebody that can act in the real world. And, you know, to do that. Step one is how do you control screen time? You gotta be able to end games on time without a fight. Mm-hmm . Two balance screen time with appropriate social interaction.

Scott Novis: (26:55)

And you can even incorporate some screen time into social development with friends. That's why I'm a big fan of consoles. They're in front of a TV and a couch and four controllers. I'm not a big fan of PC gaming. You know, one, one keyboard, one screen, one chair, never share, it's isolationist. Um, but you know that I'm not always gonna win that fight. But it's like, if you're just getting started out, keeping it social and playing with your kids, um, makes a huge difference. And then finally that conversation is, you know, “What's hard about this for you? How are you overcoming that problem?” And getting them to see, to think about the problem. That way you can use that structure with other things they're struggling with. So you're building that identity of what you said, here's how we build competence. And so they're learning it in the game. Bring it into the real world.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:47)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Scott for his healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:  I'm speaking with Scott Novis, video game developer, dad of three, and founder of Game Truck! Scott, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What is yours?

Scott Novis: (28:28)

Pay for your games. Buy games that do not require the internet to play. And you're going to radically improve your chances of getting quality entertainment that is not addictive, that you can enjoy with your kids. Um, and you can have a lot more confidence that they're gonna have a good experience. And all the things I've talked about earlier of ending game time without a fight become much, much easier. Be the customer of the developer. So buy your games that don't require internet play. If you use those two criteria, you have a much better chance of picking games that are safe for your kid.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:05)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to Scott's website and Game Truck by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Scott, thank you so much for sharing your vast video game knowledge with us today and helping a lot of families, I think come to a middle ground on gaming.

Scott Novis: (29:36)

I, you know, we're, it's not going away, so how do we make it work for us?