Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Great. A trigger warning for our episode today. We will be discussing online and offline behaviors that may not be suitable for all ears. Please be aware, we will be discussing abuse of all types and human trafficking. So take the time to assess if you're in a place both physically and mentally, where you can listen safely as the CEO of Safenest. Nevada's largest and most comprehensive nonprofit addressing domestic and sexual violence. Our guest today has championed for the safety of women and children, bringing bold vision to a field, often shaped by reactive solutions. For over two decades known for challenging conventional narratives, she advocates for a shift from punishment to prevention, from survivor only approaches to system-wide accountability and from silence to truth telling. These goals align very well with ours. I'm so glad she's here today. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Liz Ortenberg.

Liz Ortenburger: (01:27)

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:30)

Liz. The issues of domestic and sexual abuse are kind of as aligned with healthy screen habits. They, they just might not be clear to everyone, although you and I have discuss similarities, but could you kind of connect this, do you see the connection with online habits and offline physical abuse?

Liz Ortenburger: (01:58)

Absolutely. And that can happen in multiple sort of pathways, but there is a correlation between early viewing of pornography and later sexual assault as a perpetrator. So what can happen in our young lives is cementing what we believe is possible or how we solve a dopamine addiction in our adult lives. And that much like a drug addiction, it's like your first hit might be online, and then you're looking for consistently more and more and more dangerous, dark, aggressive things in that vein. And then you're, you know, you're eventually, you're taking that off the screen.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:40)

Mm. Yeah. So I kind of feel like this is a really good place to jump right into both screen habits and the Manosphere , the Manosphere is getting a lot of play lately with Louis Thoreau's documentary on Netflix and a lot of pop culture references. And the question that has been posed to me before I get started here, are you comfortable just giving a brief definition of what the manosphere is in case others are blissfully unaware? ,

Liz Ortenburger: (03:20)

Yeah. No, I would love to live in a world where I was blissfully unaware of the manosphere. Uh, you know, the, the way I interpret it is it's this world that's created by men, for men, and the rest of us are kind of just in it. Right? And so they've created narratives that work for them. And, and this is of course, but a large brush stroke of what it is. Every man is different. Every individual is different. But that's kind of how we see it here, that we're, and we're all kind of stuck in it, right? Particularly when I'm working with survivors inside any systems. These are systems that have been set up by men generally for men that women who have experienced abuse and things are trying to navigate. And oftentimes that isn't, uh, beneficial. Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:11)

Yeah. I think when we're talking about the manosphere of, in terms of online habits, it's typically populated by influencers who have advanced degrees in misogyny. You know, , they're, the communication style is incredibly inflammatory. And what Louis Thoreau did a beautiful job of exposing was they are actually just into brand promotion. So they're using this sort of shock value to enrage, engage and then plug a product. So now, here is what I would like, because I feel like you have expertise and you're uniquely, uh, suited for answering this question that gets posed to me. So I'm, I'm asking you so that I know how to answer it, . And that's, that does talking about the manosphere with our kids, with our, like, you know, tween and teenage boys, um, does this actually raise awareness about the dangers and protect them from being manipulated? Or does it encourage them to go seek these channels of misogyny and create echo chambers?

Liz Ortenburger: (05:31)

You know, one of the common things that I hear in our community and certainly through my kiddos, is like, men are under attack and men are suffering. Men are having an epidemic of isolation. And all of those things are, are, can be in different iterations. True. But what is also true is that as women have gained independence financially, what we are looking for in relationships with men is different than what we've prepared boys to, to do as adults. Right? We are looking for partners who don't complete us, don't overly protect us, don't, you know, make us the world we want possible. They are coming into a symbiotic relationship with two decision makers, with two thought leaders, with two people who should be able to elevate each other.

Liz Ortenburger: (06:29)

And we have not prepared boys for this change, right? And certainly men in their later years are like, oh my gosh, what is even happening? I used to be walking into a room and I could say something and everybody listened. Now I walk into a room and people are like, that's misogynistic, right? So this world, so this, we've shifted with Harvey Weinstein, with me Too, with all of these things. We've kind of had this radical shift in the last, I'd say seven years, but no one's had the conversation with young men or with boys. And so if you're having that manosphere conversation about, yes, it has changed, and what women and partners are looking for in relationships is different than it was even in the early two thousands, that's gonna be a healthy relationship because that's gonna help a young person navigate. If you have the conversation, which I hear on a lot of the male dominated sort of misogynistic podcasts about men are under attack, woe is men, poor men.

Liz Ortenburger: (07:26)

That's not gonna be helpful because, and I say this to the survivors we work with, nobody sitting inside a victim space is going to feel good about that. Right? Then you're looking for, you know, you're looking for revenge versus looking for solutions. So have the conversation about the world shifted and the, the advancement of women is not a bad thing. Every time boys see another Supreme Court justice who's female, an astronaut who's female, Caitlyn Clark, all of these great female things that's as good for boys as it is for girls. 'cause it normalizes the fact that women are equal, right? Gosh, hopefully at some point here in my lifetime, we'll have a female president phenomenal for, for boys to see that just as phenomenal as it is for girls, that's the manosphere sort of conversation that should be happening, is to help boys navigate what that looks like.

Liz Ortenburger: (08:23)

One of the things I I tell parents is like, you know, pick any Eminem song, any Kanye West song, any song that's just inappropriate about women, and ask your boys if we changed the lyrics here so that it was talking about shoving that up a man's ass or a Jewish person's, or a black person's, or any other demographic besides women, would we tolerate it? And these are the kinds of generative conversations. Obviously you're not having that with your 6-year-old, right? You're having that with your 16-year-old. Age appropriate. But those are the kinds of conversations. My son for the lack of having full control over his life likes to play Grand Theft Auto, I constantly am like, if that was a person of a different demographic standing there in that outfit, or, you know, kind of propositioning in the game, it's inappropriate.

Liz Ortenburger: (09:20)

Um, how would you feel about that? Because I'm feeling a certain way about that being a woman and what that says to you about women's role in this game and women's role in this world. And we engage in a conversation around it. So I know he at least understands x my point of view, but also has an understanding that that is not an appropriate aspect of the game. He still plays it limited, but he still plays it. Um, but that's the, those are the kinds of conversations to have with young people around it. I think oftentimes we shame and blame like, oh, the patriarchy. And it's like, oh my goodness. You know, boys don't even understand what that means. Um, there's a way to have a gentler, generative conversation where their ideas can be heard and you can gently sort of direct in ways that helps them gain knowledge and understanding of the man you want them to become less about the victim's place that a lot of folks are wanting to place men these days.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:18)

Yeah. Yeah. I like it because it comes from a place of education and intentionality. Like, I like how you, um, first off, thank you for admitting that you let your 16-year-old play video games, and particularly that one. I find that, I know I find that very brave from you, so thank you.

Liz Ortenburger: (10:43)

I know, it's, it's like, it's hard to sit in this space as a mom of tea with teens. I have a 13-year-old girl and a 16-year-old boy and be like, okay, what would I advise parents that I work with to do? And certainly Grand Theft Auto is a, it is a lightning rod of a game. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:59)

For sure. Sure. And

Liz Ortenburger: (11:00)

What I had to sort of say to myself, because I'm a divorced mom, so he spends half his time as at his dad's house and half of his time with me. And then of course, he's out and about with friends, because that's the world when you're 16

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:12)

As it should be.

Liz Ortenburger: (11:13)

Yeah. And if I create a, a narrative in my house that this is absolutely locked down, you're not playing this game, he's gonna get it other places. And I'm going to be then devoid of being able to have that conversation with him. 'cause I've put a stake in the ground. Yeah. I would love to do that. I mean, they would make me feel better about my , my parenting, but I, but I also see the downside to that, right? So keeping the pathways open, even when those pathways are uncomfortable to us, is hard. But I think important because, you know, what state has the highest viewing of pornography in the country, Utah, and I have to sort of like, as a neighbor to Utah, say, I see you , and when we talk about you know, control all of these urges you have, well, the thing that pops out is the thing that you don't see when you're in church, right. The pornography viewing. Um, so that's kind of like what, you know, what has informed me as a mom is like, okay, let's not create these sort of hot nose instead let's have a conversation and and then let's talk about it. Yeah. And then come to a reasonable solution on

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:28)

Yeah. And I think also it's, um, it keeps that conversational pathway open because when you lay down those super strict hard nos, you're, you're also making it so that your child is going to have to lie to you to get it right. Yeah. And so, I, I'm with you in that. I never want to create that. I don't wanna back people into a corner of like, the only way they're going to quote unquote get it right is lie to me. Yeah. And it's like, Nope, I can help you with anything. But, uh, we have to have full transparency here.

Liz Ortenburger: (13:13)

Yeah. And, you know, we're always worried, I think as parents that if we have these conversations or we open these doors, it's gonna encourage them to explore. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:52)

Yeah. Yeah. So when, so you we're talking a lot about conversation and conversation to have with, with our, with our kids, with our boys. And, um, let's say that you are finding your children, I'm, we keep saying boys because I feel like this is primarily like gendered that way, but, um, let's find them drawn to content that say promotes like power plays in relationships. Yeah. What sort of questions, knowing like what you've said about early exposure to this type of content and how that, um, leads, you know, just looking at the, you know, down the road path, what sort of questions do you recommend we ask or talk about?

Liz Ortenburger: (14:45)

Yeah, so, um, first things first, right? All boys have seen pornography by the age of, of 11, all girls by the age of 13. Most of that high 90 percents is accidental. But what is different between when I was a kid and I found a Playboy under my parents' bed, that was gross. And what kids see today is the hardcore nature. Put your Google on incognito mode, type in something semi sexual, see what pops up. It is horrific what these kids are exposed to on first accidental viewing of pornography. Then what we know from that data is that 10% of kids develop an instant addiction. And what that, what's happening there is they're having a dopamine reaction in their brain that is like, they don't know. Like, kids are like, oh my gosh, what did I just witness? And I want more of that. Right?

Liz Ortenburger: (15:42)

We understand addiction differently than we should, right? We, we think addiction is a willpower control issue, actually, right? When we start to actually really look into brain chemistry, and especially your frontal lobe is not fully developed till you're 25, right? So kids seeing pornography at 11 and 13, high hardcore pornography, 10% instant addiction, these are the kiddos that will have 20,000 pictures of child pornography on their computer, right? Because they don't realize what's happening for them. So what you wanna look for is actually the same things that you're gonna look for in any other kind of addiction, withdrawing from friends, dropping outta sports, grades are dropping any, you know, you're, you're the expert on your kiddo, right? Changes in behavior are gonna be the thing that you're gonna be looking for. Um, and then the conversation. So the preventative conversation is when they're nine and 10, saying, Hey, pornography's a thing.

Liz Ortenburger: (16:42)

You're probably gonna see it by accident. I'd prefer it that you don't go and search for it, but I understand that you're gonna, you're, you, you probably, because you're on the computer, schools are on computers now, it's, you're probably gonna see it when you do. I wanna have a conversation with you about it. I wanna talk to you about it. If you have questions, I'm here. And then you just kind of pepper that into conversations throughout, leaving the window open. I knew I needed to have this conversation with my son when my Amazon account, all of a sudden there was lingerie models. Like, I'm like, I don't buy my lingerie on Amazon. Uh, no offense to the Amazon sphere, but I just don't. And, and so I was like, oh, here's what's going on, right? Uhhuh, . So open the door conversation and that's it, right?

Liz Ortenburger: (17:23)

But if your kids are older than that, you're looking for that addictive behavior and then you're just opening up the conversation. And as we all know, teens tend to be like, “there's nothing wrong with me. Leave me alone.” Right? First blush. So be prepared for some rejection as we get used to, as our teens develop. Um, but pepper it, leave those little nodules of, of like, “Hey, I'm here for you if you need to talk, I'm here for you if you need to talk”, leaving pamphlets on pornography and the dangers of pornography around the house, back of the toilet, all these kinds of places. Again, just sort of like peppering the mill to open up a conversation. And then, um, if you need to force it, you need to force it. You need to say, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna have a conversation about this.

Liz Ortenburger: (18:08)

You can look at your teen search histories on their computers. There are ways to see their digital footprint, but really what I tell parents is, look for the change in behavior, because that's what you're really concerned about. You know, you may have a teen, a teen that is looking at pornography, but they're still functioning fine. Probably not an addiction. Still different conversations still needs to be had, but if you have an addicted, a porn addicted child that they need, uh, your understanding and probably some professional support to navigate outta that because now we're dealing with an addictive behavior.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:42)

Yeah. When we come back, I'm gonna ask Liz a few more things specific to online content and offline abuse. 

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I'm speaking with Liz Ortenburger. Fun fact, prior to being a PhD candidate in public policy and admin at Walden University and getting an MBA from IESE Business school in Barcelona, Liz got her bachelor's degree from Cal State University Fresno, where she was the nationally ranked track and field athlete and cross country team Captain . So shout out to the distance runners and the parents of distance runners dogs. I would be myself, . I'm a parent. I'm a parent, not a distance runner. So, so Liz, you have got, um, some serious street cred on the education side of things, and you've given us some very good kind of mindful awareness type things on just the art of raising decent young men, , and, and what, what to do if we, um, if we see those telltale signs, either in search history or Amazon, you know, Amazon models .

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:20)

So let's talk a little bit more about sort of this brass tacks of raising boys. Specifically what I am kind of interested in is, you know, there's a phenomenon when boys get together, and this can happen at lunch, it can happen after school, whatever. But there'll be, you know, in a group of guys, somebody says something off color, and most parents wanna raise good men, right? Yeah,

Liz Ortenburger: (20:54)

Yeah. But

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:55)

How do we raise boys who hold other men accountable?

Liz Ortenburger: (21:01)

Yeah, that's a great question. So there's actually a phenomenal program that the military used Navy Seals first, which, um, I'm always intrigued because, you know, when I think of, I, I have some phenomenal relationships with people who are in the military. We have a huge Air Force base here in, in Las Vegas. And I, I, so I have gotten this sort of inside understanding. I also graduated from the Air War College, which is a week long civilian program through the Air Force. So I've got some really phenomenal insight into what the military was doing really prior to our current war department, who's decided women are no longer equipped to do

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:42)

Enter, enter the manosphere.

Liz Ortenburger: (21:44)

Yeah. Enter the manosphere, um, the military. So Navy Seals first have this program called MVP, it, it, it put on by a phenomenal person working in the space. And they started this program years ago. But what they realized in this program, and this is really important for parents to understand in order for a, a male to have the ability to say to another male, Knock that s off, we respect women here. I respect women, I don't like your language. They have to be a respected peer or even like a notch above right. Of that other person, right? Boys who are joining a new social group, our bottom of the totem pole, they cannot walk into that group and say, I don't like how you're talking about women. They will just be ostracized from that group. Right? So understanding the social dynamic, and this is true for girls too, but for boys in particular, the social dynamic of boys who can make a difference are boys who are leaders.

Liz Ortenburger: (22:43)

Who are those boys? Those boys are great at sports. Those boys are in school politics. Those boys are, you know, popular with clubs. Those are kids that can make a difference within their sphere. Equipping all kids to be able to have peer-to-peer conversations with their friends is important. But understand, in order to have influence, you have got to be at the right social strata. So I think a lot of parents would like to say, no matter what about your kid, I want you to stand up. There's a lot of social pressure that creates an environment where your kid doesn't stand up. So how do we prepare boys for this? Partially we need to understand where our boys sit within the social group of their friends. Um, and some of that's just, you know, your son, right? Is your son an alpha? Right? These, 'cause that's really kind of the guy that I'm talking about.

Liz Ortenburger: (23:31)

It's these alpha men. This is, you know, biological to some extent, or is your kiddo more of a beta, which is also phenomenal. How can betas and alphas act differently? Right? Alphas need to call people out on their stuff, right? So if your child is dynamic, kind of you're, they could be president one day that that kind of alpha male sort of persona equip that child with the ability to do and say, and hold other men accountable because they will have that role whether they want it or not, throughout their lives. And that's just the reality of how they're wired, right? For your, for your sons that are more betas, which is also phenomenal, we need these kinds of men in the world equip them with the ability to not engage in behavior that is detrimental to other people, to walk away, to have a quiet opinion, and to engage peers in a one-on-one, not a group situation. So you do kind of need to understand the dynamics of malehood, right? Like, uh, just a little bit within your own kiddo. Um, we have a horrible thing that happened here in Las Vegas just recently. Middle school boys went on a field trip to Costa Rica and raped another boy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:45)

Oh boy.

Liz Ortenburger: (24:45)

It's horrific, right? And, and the child that is being tried as an adult in our legal systems, like a junior golfer of the year, um, you know, he's a leader within his peer group, just by the nature of the fact that he's good at sports, which often makes us leaders. Um, he is now facing a very, very different future than he was. My first question when I heard this case was, what's the pornography on these kids' computers? And I don't know all the dynamics, but when I look at this from the outside and what I understand about this world, I'm kind of trying to understand the dynamics of everything happening in this space. We have to make sure our kids know when to walk away, when to tell an adult what their legal, uh, responsibility is when things are being done to other kids, and what are the right pathways to, um, to behave. But also understanding your kids' role in holding other kids accountable is gonna depend on a little bit how they're wired in that alpha/beta category.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:48)

I think that's really insightful because I think also we, you as a parent, you kind of have to divorce yourself from the ego of, we all think our kids are amazing. We all think our kids can, you know, can rule whatever they want to do, but I think you truly do need to step back and recognize who lives in your home, and I think a really good example of the, uh, of, of teaching that ability to just, you know, like, okay, I am not gonna be part of this, would be the two members of the US men's hockey team mm-hmm . Who walked out after, after President Trump, famously made the joke about having to include the women, and there was collective laughter, and there were, there were, there were two team players that were like, yeah, we're not doing this. And they walked. And I respect them immensely for that.

Liz Ortenburger: (26:59)

And that's really, you know, when we talk about raising amazing boys, understanding that they are allies to women, right? The women's hockey team complains about that. We're they're, they're a bunch of feminists, right? All think of all the pejoratives. But when men stand up to the behavior of other men, that's when we see real change.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:21)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah. And we've heard it in so many other forums that ally is a verb, so it takes action, right? Yeah,

Liz Ortenburger: (27:31)

Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:31)

What would you say to parents who just say, well, my kid's not gonna have a phone till they're 18. Like, I'm, I don't have to deal with this, or another one. I hear that another one I hear a lot is, oh, I'm lucky my little guy's just a toddler. I'm, I'm hoping they have it all figured out by then. like, what, what, what's your response to those?

Liz Ortenburger: (28:08)

You know, here's what I tell people. Used to be right - in Vegas, we have a lot of drownings in pool accidents. A lot of kids drown, drowning at birthday parties, there's a pool, whatever, right? So then there's all these laws about you gotta put up a fence, you gotta have locking doors, you gotta have signs, you gotta have all these things. And guess what? Kids still drowned. So what do we do now in Vegas? We teach babies how to swim. If you are not preparing your kids for the world that they're in, you are not preparing them for life. And I think I get all of the reasons why you wanna bubble wrap your baby, but guess what? They're not gonna be able to be bubble wrapped for long. And so the more you sort of don't allow them to experience the same thing that their peer group is experiencing or prepare them for some of the battle scars of life, then, then when they hit 18, 19, 20, they're not ready. So prepare your kids for the life and the world that they're entering. You can do that with guardrails, you can do that with conversation, but not preparing them for it is just doing a disservice for them and, and really for their future partner.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:34)

Yeah, we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Liz Ortenburger for her healthy screen habit. 

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I'm speaking with Liz Ortenburger, the CEO of Safenest, and a thought leader reshaping how the world understands, prevents, and responds to abuse. Liz, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. So this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Liz Ortenburger: (30:36)

Well, I can't say don't let your kids play Grand Theft Auto. 'cause I already outted myself, right? , no, mine is, um, don't allow phones in the car, especially for local trips, right? Especially the person who's in the passenger seat next to you. If your kids are old enough to sit in the front seat, but even if they're in the back seat. Windshield time is phenomenal time. And so my kids are 13 and 16, they know the rule, can't use the phone in the car, and we chat. We talk about all kinds of things, and sometimes they're starting the conversation. Sometimes I'm starting the conversation, but we get time together to talk. And so that's my tip.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:13)

I love it, love it. Always creating those opportunities. So as always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to Safenest by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Liz, thank you so much for championing those who can't speak for themselves and for having the bravery to work in the field that you do. Not everybody can do what you do.

Liz Ortenburger: (31:42)

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And thanks for this great podcast.