S2 Episode 12: Decoding the Facebook Files // Jean Rogers of Childrens Screentime Action Network

"Facebook's leaked research reveals that the kind of engagement-based ranking they use drives extreme content to the users… a girl looks up a recipe on Instagram... and the next post she sees might be about anorexia.

"These are the years... kids are learning who they are and social media engagement can take them into those negative mind fields, and we don't want automated decision making to shape our kids' character or behavior or their future."

-Jean Rogers

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:02):

In early October, former Facebook employee turned whistleblower. Francis Haugen went public with accusations and internal documents collected during her time of employment. She said that the social media giant had been prioritizing profits over user safety and security. Unfortunately upon deeper study, it became apparent that the users at risk of greatest individual harm were those most incapable of creating institutional change and most vulnerable to adult manipulation in short, our youth.   Teenagers are incredibly important when studying markets and social media. I consulted an article in Bloomberg to understand why, and it turns out that one of the big reasons the childhood and teen market is so important to social media is because they don't typically have established brand preferences the way adults do. And young people often set cultural norms. The capitalization of youth has been further illustrated by a series of articles done by the Wall Street Journal using the same internal Facebook data which showed teenage girls often felt worse after spending time on Instagram, a line in the company's own reports reads "We make body is image issues worse for one in three teen girls".

Hillary Wilkinson (01:38):

Since the journal published their series, Facebook has put up a response on their home page, further teasing apart data that they conclude was never meant to be shared publicly. And they state it may have been shorthanded in explanation. As soon as the formula of screens plus commercialization, plus youth began to reveal itself. I knew who I needed to talk to: Jean Rogers is the Director of the Children's Screen Time Action Network, a collaborative global community of practitioners, educators, advocates, and parents working to reduce excessive and harmful screen use in childhood. You may remember Jean from from earlier in the season on episode eight, when we talked about creating healthy media environments for kids, she is a leader at the forefront of children's advocacy and someone whom I'm hoping can help translate the Facebook files and what they mean for us; Those families who use Facebook and Instagram as a way to stay connected, but don't wanna do so at the expense of our children's health. Welcome back to the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast: Jean Rogers!

Jean Rogers (02:54):

Thank you so much, Hillary. Happy to be back.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:57):

I'm happy you could, you could come back and help us make sense of all of this.

Jean Rogers (03:02):

At the moment,  at this critical time.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:04):

Yes. I'd like to jump right into the content of today's episode. Honestly, no one I know has advocated for children's wellbeing over tech company profits, like you, and thank you - a thousand thank yous from a million mamas, just like me <laugh> who are trying to figure out parenting at a digital age. Could you start by explaining: Why doesn't the business model of big tech and social media work for promoting kids wellbeing?

Jean Rogers (03:39):

Well, Hillary, we all know, you know, we come to this topic and this conversation, knowing that more time on devices is not helpful to kids development for many physical and mental health reasons. And yet yesterday, you know, you referred to Francis Haugen and the Facebook hearings, yesterday, the Senate commerce committee held another hearing on this topic with executives from Snapchat, TikTok and YouTube and Senator Cynthia Loomis, I thought sent, it said it best she's from Wyoming. And she asked the reps from these companies 2 questions: Are your platforms designed to keep users engaged long as possible? And is the length of engagement, your company's measure of success? And the answers were vague and noncommittal as you might expect. And like,” we have many measures of success.” And then the Senator had to ask these questions again. And we know from our research from the Center for Humane Technology, The Algorithmic Justice League, and other sources that point to these features of auto play and likes and friending and growing the next generation of users and spenders for their marketers and their influencers. And that's what, that's what the point is to those questions. Yes, of course engagement is their priority. In other words, our kids are the guinea pigs.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:08):

Mm yes. So what does the data exposed from Facebook's own research regarding teen girls and Instagram show? Like what, what can we interpret that to mean?

Jean Rogers (05:23):

Sure. So besides the time and engagement factors, Facebook's leaked research reveals that the kind of engagement based ranking that they use drives extreme content to the users. So for instance, if a teen girl looks up a recipe on Instagram, which sometimes they're starting to get interested in at that age and looking up recipes or different, um, kinds of food plans, the next post she sees might be about anorexia or eating disorders. And it might encourage her in a harmful way not to cook or eat. And those documents revealed even worse, encouragement for self harm and even suicide.  Tragic.  I really thank you for addressing this topic today because parenting is so hard. You and I know that Hilary, you know, especially in the teen years, I used to say, the teen years are brain drain. <laugh> that I'd much rather have, you know, be running around after toddlers and I had twin boys. So that's saying a lot! Um, but you can't be parents who are listening to you. Can't be expect it to understand or divert the algorithms run by big tech. We're here to try to protect you and your kids. And it's not a fair fight.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:47):

So the way I understand it, as far as the algorithms go, it, uh, it continues to drive con that it, it kind of pushes people for it just, it's not a, it's not a big stepping off point. It's more of a nudge, it's a nudge and a nudge and a nudge until all of a sudden you find yourself way down the rabbit hole that you didn't necessarily intend to go to. And one of the things that we have talked about to kind of like circumvent this, uh, algorithmic push is to use those algorithms the other way, like follow positive content, and you can groom the algorithm the other way as well, by following things like the Good News Movement and more wholesome content, you can, you can curate a feed that would take better care of you mentally.

Jean Rogers (07:54):

Sure. I mean, what you described as like the emotional mind field, it's a, you know, bottoming out with those negative feeds and that's apparently what gets more likes and more, um, more engagement. But what you're talking about, the nudging toward the good is something that these executives have acknowledged might be a way to start turning it around. You know, they haven't agreed to make drastic the drastic change changes we want them to make, but that's when they have discussed is having positive nudges .

Hillary Wilkinson (08:30):

But that almost absolves them of the responsibility's right? It's I mean, that is, and that, you know, unless people know about the algorithmic nudge, they're not going to be able to employ those tactics. And of course, what we know about trauma is we know that when a child sees something incredibly inappropriate, that they might not understand in viewing or that they might they're compelled to go back and try and figure it out. That's what we do with trauma. So we circle back, circle back, circle back. And so in doing that, they continue to seek for the damaging material.

Jean Rogers (09:13):

Exactly we know the developmentally, these are the years, kids are learning who they are and social media engagement can, um, take them into those negative mind fields, and we don't want that automated decision making, making to shape our kids' character or behavior or their future. These are our future leaders. These are our precious children, and we want to be able to do what we can to encourage them in a positive way and, and, um, mitigate the harms from these platforms.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:47):

Yes. So we have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about an Instagram platform for kids that is been put quote unquote, on pause.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

Today I am talking with Jean Rogers, the Director of the Children's Screen Time Action Network, a sister project of Fairplay, a group that was instrumental in designing a massive education campaign to build awareness and stop the design of Instagram youth. This was a social media platform made for kids - just as a side note. Instagram is a photo sharing, social media app owned by Facebook. So Jean first let's get some clarity around the topic. What is, or what was the plan, is the ongoing plan for Instagram Kids?

Jean Rogers (11:02):

So some of your audience may have already signed the petition, um, right through Healthy Screen Habits. And then, you know, that Instagram for kids is a version of the app design for children under 13. And Facebook knows that younger kids are on app instead of identifying them and getting them off the app, they thought they would create a new app that will indoctrinate them into the culture of appearance and popularity and obsession with looks and makeup, and, you know, expose them to targeted marketing influencer content and allow Facebook to start collecting data on them. And, you know, that's their goal. That's what they wanted. Essentially. They are grooming a new generation of social media users at that age.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:50):

Which seems to fly in the face of COPPA, The Childrens Online Privacy and Protection Act.

Jean Rogers (11:54):

Oh, precisely, precisely. So COPPA is being updated by Dr. Uh, by, um, Senator Markie mm-hmm <affirmative> Massachusetts. And, um, knowing that these harms are being targeted to younger children, COPPA is outdated <affirmative> and O only addresses media of 20 years ago. So can, can you imagine that we've had the internet all this time and it hasn't been updated for the internet. So knowing the harms to older children, we want to protect the younger children from the same, the, the harms that we just discussed before the break. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson (12:32):

Right.

Jean Rogers (12:33):

And so Fairplay is our parent organization and has gathered a coalition of advocates and created this petition that I know you've shared and will share again with your audience, which is pivotal to getting Facebook, to pause the effort. we think that's not enough though. We want them to delete the effort. 

Hillary Wilkinson (12:54):

So do you know how long has it been in the works to create this platform for kids on Instagram? Has Facebook been forthcoming with that?

Jean Rogers (13:21):

No, Hillary, but it's hard to tell, but we think it's been in the works for a while. It's not something that they would just make an announcement of. So we think, you know, probably several years, even the, and I just wanna mention that Instagram's CEO, Adam Mosseri, at the time of the pause said, "we still think this is a good idea. We're just putting it on pause." And they claim that having a safe environment for younger children on Instagram, since they're already on Instagram for older kids would be the best thing. We know that though it will get them into the habits. We know that they'll be targeted. We know that it's a gateway essentially.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:11):

Oh, it's absolutely a gateway. And it's also a gateway for predators. I mean, you cannot, you cannot ignore. Who's going to follow that platform?

Jean Rogers (14:21):

Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:22):

So I would imagine there are many parents of teenage girls who are kind of reeling with this new knowledge that came out about one in three. And I mean, all of the stuff that, uh, we know now that even Facebook had data on that supported that this was not a healthy place for teenage girls to be hanging out. And we also know that Instagram is in the top three of social media apps for teenage girls. So knowing that, do you have any tips for parents on how they can dial back Instagram? Like how they can dial their kids back from it?

Jean Rogers (15:20):

I'll tell parents, first of all, what it's not helpful to do, it's not helpful to say, put that thing down or haven't we all said, put that thing down, or I wish you could just shut your phone off. Those kinds of things are driven by our own fear. And you know, that is what we're feeling around this as parents is fear of the unknown internet and where our kids are traveling. Um, but they come across as disrespectful to our teens. The first step is to realize that they have a whole life inside that device. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> their friends, their school activities. So don't just take it away, uh, help them prioritize other activities. Remember that they really want to be out in the world at this age, they're developmentally separating from you, but we don't want the algorithms to be shaping the, you know, how they do that, shaping that journey for them.

Jean Rogers (16:20):

So help them prioritize other activities, help them, help them take breaks, use timers. So they'll start developing self-awareness around how much time they're on their devices. Because those techniques that we've just discussed are helping them to be less aware or creating vagueness about how much time they're on their devices. They don't realize that they've been on there for a couple of hours when they have, um, another thing to do is take their phone away at night. We know that sleep deprivation, uh, exposure to harmful content at night, especially can cause isolation, mental health issues. It's so critical. And I say that's something that parents absolutely have to do is take the phone away at night, um, and use what we used to call media literacy. You might hear it now called digital citizenship, but there are some great programs, um, that we can tap into for digital citizenship now and using every chance to explain what's happening on the screen to the kids. So anytime you can watch it with them or ask them questions about it and curiosity of their world, then they feel listened to, they feel heard, and they're much more likely to share it with us than when we say those things like shut it off.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:41):

Yeah. And I've also found that, um, you know, watching movies like Childhood 2.0 or The Social Dilemma and together as a family and then also visiting websites like center for humane tech, um, you know, they have, they have, uh, a whole site or whole part on their website that is just, um, anecdotal stories of individual people who ha have, um, you know, talked about what tech did for them or mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, and, uh, it's not, it's not all bad. I mean, it's not there's there is a connection that's built, but I do think it's that critical point of teaching our youth to recognize that technology is a tool.

Jean Rogers (18:30):

That's perfect. That's perfect Hillary. And you know, they don't like to be tricked kids. Don't like to be tricked. So once they learn that, you know, they're being duped by social media, you know, they're gonna wanna learn more about it, just like they wanna learn about climate change and what's happening to their world. They're gonna wanna learn what's happening to them. And since you mentioned watching those films together as a family, TV can really be a good substitute, um, for mobile devices and for social media, the more we can share our screens with the kids, the better their socialization and understanding of the world is,  we have a shared experience. For example, if I say to you "the yellow brick road", you know what I mean? Right. So I don't have to explain it to you because we've both seen The Wizard of Oz. But if our children are watching random videos and having all different experiences there isn't that shared language and they go down that internet black hole.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:28):

Mm. So, you spoke about some safeguards to put into place, to protect children surrounding social media in general. Were there any others that you wanted to add?

Jean Rogers (19:43):

Um, it's almost, it sounds cliche, but parents do have to set limits. You know, we want you to know that it's not your fault and that's what's coming out now. It's the moment where we're all realizing, you know, we're not to blame. The kids are not to blame, but it's still happening in our homes. So we do need to set limits and a great way to do that is talk as a family about what do you value most? So make a list. Do we value being together? We value being outdoors, exercise, healthy food, music, practicing our faith, volunteering for local charities. You know, we can make a huge list and then you find you can kind of back into reducing it that way. You know, the more time we spend together and doing these things that we love, um, life is busy, but it helps us to share our precious time in a different way. And it reduces that risk for the kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (20:38):

And create really rich experiences as well. Yeah. So do you have any next steps you could recommend for people who would like to voice their concerns or stop Instagram kids from being developed further?

Jean Rogers (20:54):

Absolutely. So the petition is still open as we discussed and um, Hillary will make it available. It's also@fairplayforkids.org and the first step toward that's the first step to getting the message to Mark Zuckerberg and he's being overwhelmed and we wanna continue to overwhelm him <laugh> and if you feel called to do more, join the Children's Screen Time Action Network, where you'll find Hillary and other members, everyday advocates working together to reduce harmful screen use and child. And, um, we are a collaborative community of professionals and parents who work together on all the different issues regarding kid's online life. And, um, we see progress and we find hope in being a community.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:43):

Wonderful. So when we come back, I'm going to ask Jean Rogers. If she has a specific, healthy screen habit for today's topic.

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Hillary Wilkinson (22:09):

We're back. I'm discussing the Facebook files and Instagram Kids with Jean Rogers guru for all things related to fighting the commercialization of childhood!   Jean, as you remember on every episode of the healthy screen habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one that you could share with us today?

Jean Rogers (22:39):

I love this Hillary! My healthy screen habit that I'm gonna share today is about the concept of heroes. So I suggest that we talk to kids about the qualities of a hero. So in the online world, everybody seems to be a hero: influencers and they, even if they have no skills, no redeeming qualities based on our own values. So I suggest you look around your family and the world, find a cousin, a neighbor, a friend who's made a positive mark on the world. Sometimes it's a coach. Sometimes it's a faith leader. Um, but I encourage you to ask kids to look for heroes in the real world and, you know, compare those to their online heroes. We're not saying that everyone online is a bad person. We're just saying that there are other, you know, uh, qualities of a hero that we'd like our kids to help understand.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:37):

Yeah. And I love that because one of the things that it also kind of fosters is a conversation around the qualities that you and your family value the most. So it would, um, lend itself towards also those activities that you referenced earlier of kind of packing your family schedule with almost to, to, uh, surround yourself with things outside of the virtual world.

Jean Rogers (24:10):

Yes. Developmentally our teens are pulling away from us. It's natural. It has nothing to do with us or their love for us. It just is a developmental stage. And so if we give them other trusted adults to look up to, um, that share our values, then we know they're moving into safe environments and they're being watched out for, by others as well. So it's good to have them look around and, and select other influencers, real influencers in their lives.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:45):

Right. I love that. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us today, Jean. If our listeners would like to learn more about Fair Play, The Children's Screen Time Action Network, or signing the petition to stop Instagram Kids, I'll link all of those things in this episode's Show Notes. Again, this is episode 12 of Season Two. And please take care of yourself, Jean. Keep fighting the good fight and we're, we're cresting into our holiday season here so I hope you have a wonderful holiday season.

Jean Rogers (25:19):

Thanks so much, Hillary. Thanks for having me!