S2 Episode 11: Intentional Harm - What Cyberbullying Really Is // Barbara Coloroso

SCBT: What our kids need to do when they experience bullying.

Stop

Copy

Block

Tell

-Barbara Coloroso

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:03):

I learned very early when teaching and parenting to reserve my "veto power" for things that really matter when a student or one of my own children comes to me with a request that I'm not sure about. I often use two magic words that help me do this. The magic words are, "convince me" this phrase serves to do two things. It requires critical thinking by the child doing the request. And perhaps most importantly, in the moment, it buys me time to figure out how I really feel about what the request is. These words "convince me" also help retain respect for when I do say “no” in short, this approach has served me well throughout professional, as well as personal life. And today I am thrilled to both talk to, thank, and introduce our listeners to the person who taught me the power of using the phrase.

Hillary Wilkinson (00:59):

"Convince me". She's truly one of the OG for the past 49 years. Barbara Coloroso has been speaking, educating and teaching on parenting, creating positive school climates, bullying, grieving, explaining nonviolent conflict resolution and more she's appeared on the BBC, Oprah and CNN -  Just to name a few. In fact, she told me she just got off the phone with our attorney general, and I can't believe she's making time for us today. Her life work of putting kids first in her organization, Kids Are Worth It, is the cornerstone for many in education and early childhood development. I'm so completely honored to welcome to the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast, Barbara Coloroso.

Barbara Coloroso (01:47):

Oh, thank you, Hillary, for that introduction. Yes. The three alternatives to know. Yes. Later. Give me a minute. And most importantly, especially for older kids “convince me”.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:57):

Yes. And I'm, I'm deep in the parent. I'm in the throws of teenage parenting. So it is, that's, it, it is, is in my back pocket all the time. <laugh> okay. So Barbara, I've shared some of your achievements and professional work already. I feel like my parenting could benefit from talking about so many different things with you, but for the sake of our limited time and our audience, I would really like to focus on this work that you have done surrounding cyber bullying. And I think when we start talking about specific areas, it's always good to lay out some framework for definitions so that we're all on the same page. That being said, could you share what is cyber bullying and equally important? What is it not?

Barbara Coloroso (02:47):

Okay. Um, it's very important that we understand that because one of my roles, uh, since I wrote the book, "The Bully, The Bullied & The Not So Innocent Bystander” as William Burrow so eloquently said, “there are no innocent bystanders.” What were they doing there in the first place? Um, I have found step one is we have to explain to parents and educators that not everything is bullying, but bullying is most importantly not conflict. And how often we mistake that. So look looking at what bullying is. It's a conscious willful, deliberate, hostile activity intended to harm where the perpetrators get pleasure from the pain that's inflicted on the target. When two kids are fighting, they both often get hurt. We have to teach 'em how to handle it nonviolently, but there are four ways in three means of bullying and the four ways. It's a one time event, significant event, continuous repeated overtime, hazing, all ritualized initiations that dehumanize anybody and cyber or technology or digitally enhanced bullying.

Barbara Coloroso (03:54):

And the three means to do that is verbal, physical and relational. Cyber is the one that has impacted our young people the most today. Uh, because you can use verbal, you can threaten physical and you can shun, isolate, lock out of a chat room, uh, remove from an internet gaming site, a kid you want to target. And now we have the, the online world and the offline world. We used to say online and real, but the online/offline have now merged for kids to be mean and cruel to the kid that they target. And so we have to look at, okay, there's a wide network out there. It's constantly changing. I am an immigrant to the internet world, my children, my, my gen I'm I'm third generation here. My children were, uh, first generation and this generation are truly native. They found out about the cell phone in the labor room.

Barbara Coloroso (05:00):

<laugh> as mom and dad are flashing pictures. And the like, and babies will be scrolling, uh, with a phone and then pick up a little book and try to scroll it. I mean, it's inherent in them and we have to look at how we might, as parents behave for our kids on the internet. I always talk about three kinds of families, "brick wall", "jellyfish", and "backbone". Now the brick wall, uh, family, is recognizing that connecting to the internet is like opening a door to a new and vast city, which it is. However, some parents look at the ugly and absolutely scary stuff out there and refuse to let the internet become a part of their family life at all. You're not getting on there. It's too dangerous and the like, well they'll find ways kids will find ways to get on and end up being sneaky, which you don't want them to be.

Barbara Coloroso (05:53):

Then there are the parents who are jellyfish, who are so ill informed and have so little desire to be active on it, um, that they will let their kids roam down any dark alley on the internet. Because, well, when I was, uh, first generation, there was not a lot of harm on there. Whoa. It has evolved. Then we have what I, I call the "backbone parent", a parent with flexibility. You don't get from rigid brick wall and, uh, a parent who has structure, um, to help raise responsible, resourceful, resilient, compassionate human beings. You don't get from jellyfish and we need both flexibility and an environment that's condu conducive to creative, constructive, responsible activity. And that's that parent who says, I know I'm ignorant about this, so I need to get up to speed. And some of the tools that we can use are right there at the dining table saying to our kid, talk to me about TikTok.

Barbara Coloroso (06:51):

Uh, I have no clue what that is and they'll roll their eyes, but they'll also teach you. They have a lot to teach us. And when we are open instead of going, oh, that's awful stuff or, oh, that, but to be open to it and also learn net safety and net etiquette. If we have to learn it, we have to teach it to our children, how to behave and backbone parents know the Internet's here to stay. <affirmative>, there's the good, the bad and the ugly. And what we wanna do is teach our kids how to be safe on the internet and how to behave on it as responsible, resourceful, resilient, compassionate, human beings. So we, we look at the online and offline is having merged and have to be immersed with our children in that.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:41):

Yeah, I agree. And I do think it, um, you can't underestimate the importance of that face to face interaction either around the dinner table or just, uh, throughout the day of checking in seeing where people are at, um, in response to the cyber bullying question. Are there any things that like, I'm just thinking like in my own life, if we're sitting at the dinner table, if we're having those conversations, are there any things that we should look at that we would think like, uh, oh, you know, my spidey senses are tingling. This is a red flag moment? I guess I'm, I'm trying to find now, are there are the, I, I know each situation is specific to itself, but are there any typical, like what I would qualify as warning signs to look for?

Barbara Coloroso (08:29):

Yes. Sad and sullen - after they get off of the computer or off their phone, they don't have anything kind to say about anybody cause everybody's attacking them. Um, and this I'm talking about the kid who's targeted. Right. Um, and they, um, are, uh, not doing so well in school.  Online targeting impacts a kid in the offline world as well. So we need to pick up those signs. But before we even do that, you mentioned the dinner table, the backbone parent has some structure, like no phones at the dinner table. This is our cell phone free area to be able to communicate, uh, and talk face to face. So kids learn to read what they're not getting on the cell phone to read body language, to read a hurt in somebody's voice and recognize that, uh, because that's one of the pitfalls online that kids will often make. Yes, they expressed something, but it wasn't intentional, uh, that you did somebody, but you did because of the way you said it. So having some limits and I, one thing I want to absolutely get in here is no cell phone in their bedrooms.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:52):

Absolutely.

Barbara Coloroso (09:53):

And my, I had my, my secretary once said, my son is, uh, we got a call from the teacher. He's falling asleep. He was going to bed early. Of course he was, I said, where's his phone in the room? I said, well, put it in your room and then find out what's going on. Well, he was communicating with kids in Japan.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:13):

Oh - So even in a different time zone!

Barbara Coloroso (10:16):

Games and in nothing bad, but he wasn't getting sleep and kids will say that I need alarm clock, buy him one. But it's out of the, bedroom, because the majority of cyber bullying occurs after school and in the late hours of night.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:37):

Ooh, that was my next question. Was, are there particular times of day to be more diligent? So after school, late at night. So if we can limit those times or just put structure around those times, then we can try to help navigate through this zone. Yeah.

Barbara Coloroso (10:56):

And our kids will get good sleep because, uh, the lack of sleep can lead a kid to be more depressed. And then you add onto that cyber issues and you have a severely depressed child, um, because the warning signs that a kid's exhibit after being cyber bullied are similar to those exhibited when they bullied in are ways, but it's magnified, wow. It's 24/7, and you really want to, uh, structure it. And, and it's real important that you, when they're very young, cause kids have access to tools very young, that you increase responsibilities and decision making, decrease limits and boundaries as they are developing their own backbone around using these tools so that when they leave our homes and our schools, they're making all of their own decisions and responsible for all of their own behavior online. But that means when they're very young, the limits and boundaries are stronger and tighter.

Barbara Coloroso (11:54):

They have to be, but as they get older, we need to allow them more freedom online with still having some structure intact, to help keep them safe. And also always assure them that if they have ever been targeted, they can tell you, and you promise…. as hard as this is. You promise not to take their cell phone away. Interesting. Many kids will not tell you they've been targeted, cause they're afraid that you will brick wall it and take it away and not allow them online. And they wanna know what kids are saying about them. They want. So we're not dealing with the issue very effectively if we do that. So you've got a promise in that. Is there ever a time to take it away? Absolutely. If your child is on the other end, doing the mean and cruel behaviors, um, there is a time to be, have them removed for a period of time until they've done three R's made restitution gone online and removed the ugly stuff, sent a message out.

Barbara Coloroso (12:54):

I said this meaning in cruel rumor about so and so, uh, if you received it and opened it, please delete it. If you sent it on to others, please delete it. Because what I did was mean in cruel restitution, resolution. I want you to tell me how you're gonna keep it from happening again. And kid says, I won't ever do that online again. I said, well, that's good. That's what you want do what to do instead. And that's where our wisdom comes in. As parents helping them come up with some ways to have good etiquette online, how to welcome kids into games, how to respond to somebody who's being mean and cruel to somebody else to have the courage. I said there were three characters, the bully, the bully, the not so innocent bystander.

Barbara Coloroso (13:40):

There's also a fourth character, the brave hearted kid, willing to stand up and speak out, step in, do the right thing when the burden is heavy and we have to help them do that by walking our talk and talking our walk. So how do you behave online? Are you on all the time? Will you stop when your child comes home from school and put your electronics down? When you say, how are you doing? They walk in fine. Well, you missed the fine when the head was down in the sad voice. Right? Um, and so model it for them first, you have to walk the talk, but then talk the walk <affirmative> um, and they may say, well, you're, you're old. You don't understand it at all. And the way I got around that with my grandkids is that said, I, they had to teach me about zoom.

Barbara Coloroso (14:26):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, all of a sudden, a year and a half ago, I was doing all my lectures on zoom. And I asked all three, a 10 year old, a 12 year old and a 13 year old help me out here. And the 10 year old thought, it'd be kind of cute to make me into an owl because I'd be a wise teacher <laugh>. And I said, ah, not this time <laugh> but they were so helpful and they enjoyed it. But while they were doing that, I was also teaching them about safety online and the etiquette online, every moment can be a teachable moment with them.

Barbara Coloroso (15:13):

Now, you might have a kid who wasn't targeted, but also didn't instigate the bullying, spreading a rumor, but help spread it. Right. You're one of those not so innocent bystanders or, or looked at TikTok and laughed at the young girl in the lunchroom who was videoed, being excluded. I want them to know you're part of the problem too. Now, what can you do to heal with that person that you harmed? "But I didn't do anything. I only laughed at them." Laughing at somebody's pain is hurtful.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:21):

Right. And can you kind of talk about what, what happens to a school or a community when that online bullying kind of prof proliferates like that? I know you, you and I had spoken before about examples that you'd had.

Barbara Coloroso (16:36):

Yes. It destroys community. Martin Luther said, I am I and you are thou and We have a common humanity. That's the we. In bullying, whether it's online or offline, it's making somebody into an it. Um, there was an incident where, um, a young boy had his own private Instagram that he shared with just a few people and then videoed some young girls, um, and did a racial epitaph next to them that was horrible. Oh, and the, one of the boys who had received it went to one of the girls that were in that video and she shared it with that. Her, her, um, she knew people were treating her differently, laughing at her and he brought it to her attention. There's one of the things I tell kids, if you're online and you see somebody being mean and cruel to the other person, you can be the witness resistor or defender as a brave hearted kid, being that witness is to capture it and share it with it as being targeted.

Barbara Coloroso (17:35):

They didn't know that rumor was going around, that they were pregnant or they didn't know that rumor was going around, that they, um, had done something after school that was untrue, but people are treating her, her or him as it was with those young girls. Um, they were devastated, but long before he even told them, because others had viewed it and were treating them differently. Right. So we need to take stock of the impact of online targeting of kids because it impacts them offline. Right. And whether they know about it or not. So letting 'em know as being a witness, a resistor is, is saying to the kid who's spreading it. "This is ugly. I'm not gonna be a part of it." Being a defender is to stand up for the kid who's been targeted. Mm. And send them a message saying, "I'm here with you. I'm supporting you."

Hillary Wilkinson (18:29):

We have to take a quick break. But when we come back, I wanna dive into a little more cyber bullying and it's far reaching impacts.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest is Barbara Coloroso. Before the break, we were talking about the impact that cyber bullying can have on the greater community. Now, Barbara being the author of 6 international bestselling books, including the latest edition of the bullied, the bullied and the not. So in innocent bystander, places you in this really highly qualified position to talk about the "ways and means" of bullying. And I know there's no set pattern for how it looks every time you've shared are some of the experiences that you've had. Um, I also recognize that - We always, we want to believe in our, you know, in our core that our children would be those brave hearts, but that being said, I'm not so naive is to think that my kids are immune to causing this type of hurt.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:56):

And I come from a place of believing that knowledge is powerful, and I truly believe that education saves lives. So we work to build empathy and create, create connection with community and friends. However, um, to, I think equally important is the information and education on the ramifications of engaging in the bullying behavior. And I know that you get called to be an expert key witness in many legal cases. I, I was wondering if you could share just so people understand what are some of the legal ramifications and outcomes that you have seen within the work that you do?

Barbara Coloroso (20:38):

Well in, in terms of cyber bullying quite a bit, because again, it, it affects the offline world as well, where a kid is relentlessly targeted and sometimes schools have taken the step back and said, "Well, it didn't happen here", but now we have a legal, both in Canada and the US to take steps if it impacts their educational setting.” And so when kids cyberbully another child…

Hillary Wilkinson (21:06):

Okay. I wanna back up on that. So, because I have, spoken with school administrators about that, and that is their big fallback on, is that well, if it doesn't happen, if it doesn't happen during school hours, if it doesn't happen on school property, it's beyond our concern. Can you explain, can you unravel that a little bit for me?

Barbara Coloroso (21:23):

Absolutely. If it impacts and it’s in both countries, if it impacts the educational environment for the child, who's been targeted outside of school online, if it impacts their relationship with others (and it's guaranteed to!) how kids view them with an ugly rumor or how kids view them when they've locked them out of the chat room. Well, let's lock them out of the lunch room. It, it impacts it. We have a, an, an ethical and legal obligation to respond to it. Now, if it, and right now, what we're seeing and it's horrific is revenge porn, right. Um, which is a criminal offense in both of our countries. And that's where you post, uh, pictures of a sexual nature that were, uh, non-consensual. Uh, and if you're under 16 in some places, 18 in others, um, and you've posted it, whether it was consensual or not, there is a possibility that you could become a sex offender and in your criminal charging of that.

Barbara Coloroso (22:38):

Um, and now we're getting even more, uh, involved in racial, um, uh, and sexual bullying, uh, escalating to a hate crime. And so, uh, what we're saying is we need to make this a safe environment online and offline for young people. Canada had that Amanda Todd story, where she was targeted by someone from Europe, but her classmates received the same pictures and they target her. She moved to a different school. They had those pictures within five days, compliments another guy in Europe. Now that didn't happen on school time, but it impacted her profoundly, of course, the relationships. So, uh, these are serious things. And what we need to help our young people do is a very simple way to respond. If you respond to the cyberbullying in any way, whether it's passive or aggressive or assertive, um, it often makes it worse, cause they will continue it. Whereas offline, if you have an assertive comment, that was mean that was cruel. I don't need this. I'm outta here. It has an impact, but online, it doesn't as effectively. So I use the, uh, simple S C B T stop. Don't respond back as much as you want to.  Copy it. because it may not be there when you are reporting it to somebody it's disappeared. Copy it, block it. Although I wanna remind kids, it's never gone. There's always metadata backing it up and the footprint is still there.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:18):

Right. And just to be clear, just to be clear, when you say copy it, that means like take a screenshot of what, what it has happened.

Barbara Coloroso (24:26):

Yes. Block it and all, if you don't know how to do it as, as a parent, ask your kid.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:34):

Right. <laugh> and if they don't, there's always YouTube. YouTube is a great source of information.

Barbara Coloroso (24:39):

Yeah. And Common Sense Media has phenomenal resources online for any parent. Who's really struggling with it. Um, I refer to them often. Uh, and then the last one is, is to Tell a trusted adult. So you, as a parent need to be assure assured that you have informed your children, that they can tell you anything, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:01):

And I think that key component goes to what you were talking about earlier with, they can, you need, they need to know that they can tell you without the ramification of their phone getting taken away, because that will force them into a position where they are no longer comfortable coming to you as an ally.

Barbara Coloroso (25:24):

Because they're afraid you will right. Take the, the way, and this is part of their life, but we want to maybe perhaps help them block certain people, get them engaged in other online communities. Um, and then also report it to the online sites. And I know there's a lot in the news about how they've not responded in the, like that, like again, in both of our countries, people are saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. We have to do more, um, Raffi uh, this great singer. Oh yeah. Yes. Raffi, um, has been a strong advocate for holding these platforms accountable that if you are going to allow students on it, young children on it, you have an obligation. We have an obligation to help our kids, but you have an obligation to help make it safe. You have the tools, you have the finances and you have the skill. Yes. And so we need to not just say, oh, it's all up to just us because we cannot, new things are coming online so rapidly that we need to be active ourselves just as Raffi is - go online to Raffi you'll find him and how he has actually been very involved.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:42):

I had no idea. I just, I just know of Raffi from sing along days in the car

Barbara Coloroso (26:46):

He, he has a, a whole, uh, thing about treating children with dignity in regard. And he's taken on the big companies about, okay, what are you doing? Because truly often police will say, we don't know what to do. Um, they will say that we never even knew about this. Uh, some of the trends that have gone on to that are horrible about suicides and the, like, we can't all keep up with it. So we need the, the help of the big companies that are benefiting from this.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:35):

Okay. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Barbara Coloroso for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm talking with Barbara Coloroso, creator and founder of kids are worth it. An organization whose mission is to contribute, to raising responsible, resourceful, resilient, compassionate, human beings, who can stand up for themselves and others and respects the rights and essential needs of others. I want to be that person. <laugh>. I look at that and I'm like, that's not, that's not just a mission statement for an organization. That's like a personal mission statement. <laugh> I feel like that exemplifies the best of humanity. <laugh>

Barbara Coloroso (28:52):

And how do we get there? Well, I'll go back to walk your talk and talk your walk. So how do you treat hired help? How do you treat somebody moving to the grocery store? A little slower than you'd like them to. How do you treat the new neighbor who different, who has the different languages, their first language who, uh, eats different foods has a different faith tradition? Your children are watching. Yeah. And offline. How do you treat the bigoted relative at the family gathering? We all have them <laugh> yes. And if they tell a bigoted or racist comment, or you've seen something online that they've shared with your child, are you willing to stand up when it's uncomfortable to do, are you willing to say that was bigoted? That was racist. That was sexist. Um, uh, and, uh, I don't need this. Even when your mother comes and said, look, it's Uncle George,

Barbara Coloroso (29:44):

he's old. Old is never an excuse for bigotry and intolerance online or offline. And we see so much of this online today between adults mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and now we have adults targeting kids at, uh, uh, board meetings, uh, as they're going to school with their masks on and the like, and so we have to stand up and speak out for our young people. When you stand up at the dinner table and say, that was a bigoted comment, I don't need this. And your mother says, but it's uncle George. Can you say  “It's not about age, it's never appropriate to make those kind of comments, those bigoted racial or sexual comments." And you've stood up. You go in the dining room, everybody shuts up. But the chance of your child being that fourth character, that brave hearted kid online and off, because they've seen you do it.

Barbara Coloroso (30:40):

It's okay to share with them that you found something ugly online. And this is how you're handling it. That you're blocking someone  because, uh, of the negative things they've said, or you've responded back, you walking, your talk has a lot more impact on young people. Even though we think in the teen years, oh, we're losing them. No, they're still counting on us. We are their parent before they reach puberty, they're model and their guide during puberty. Uh, and then an adulthood. Hopefully you become a good friend. (They do pick out your nursing home. )<laugh> uh, you know, and so we, but we don't want to be a friend to them in the teen years. We want to be their model and guide. If you need a friend, find somebody your own age, um, you know, but we need to be there and show them. We have to be actively involved in the online world that they're involved in.

Hillary Wilkinson (31:32):

I love that. Let's take you again. So I think, I think that's your Healthy Screen Habit, isn't it? The, the be involved or, I mean, just the, the developing is that if you could sum up your, your Healthy Screen Habit, your tip or takeaway what

Barbara Coloroso (31:47):

It would be, if the internal moral code that you help, your young people develop, develop to care, deeply share, generously, help willingly. Those are the antidotes to hating, hoarding, and harming the virulent agents ripping apart the fabric of our humanity today. If we can do that online and offline help, our young people learn to care deeply about others. You don't have to like the kid. I tell 'em, you don't have to like, 'em, you must honor their humanity. And how do you honor that disagreeing with them? How do you honor that when they feel left out, when you help them develop that interdiscipline, that internal moral code to do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. James Natchwe a Canadian war photographer said it so beautifully. "Do good because good is good to do."

Hillary Wilkinson (32:33):

Oh, that's beautiful. Yes. Well, thank you so much, Barbara you've generously offered our listeners a copy of an Essential Guide For Educators On Bullying, based on your international best seller:, The Bully, The Bullied and The Not So Innocent Bystander that I will link to the show notes in this episode, which is Episode 11 of Season two. And additionally you've offered our listeners a handout on the same topic that can be shared with schools and parents. So both of these resources will be linked and I hope people access them, take them to your schools, take them to your communities and share what you know. I cannot thank you enough for your time and expertise and really, truly your life work.

Barbara Coloroso (33:19):

Thank you, Hillary. And I wanna thank you for giving me the opportunity to share it. Uh, I believe our, this next generation's gonna make a world of difference, making it a more deeply caring place.