S2 Episode 2: Being Durable - The Human Advantage // Jenifer Joy Madden of The Durable Human

"We've got so many amazing things (as humans) that are our super powers... that our devices don't have. And they'll never have."

-Jenifer Joy Madden, CDWI

Healthy Screen Habit Takeaway

Show Transcript

Hillary (00:17):

Jennifer Joy Madden is someone who defines herself as a cheerleader for humanity, with joy, right in her name, you automatically want to smile and learn about the work she's doing, which I might add totally stands on its own. As the founder of Durable Human, a certified digital wellness instructor and author. Jennifer offers practical wisdom paired with real world mom experience and research back data for living and parenting in the digital world. Her published works: "How To Be A Durable Human "and "The Durable Human Manifesto" are honestly two of the most dog eared and marked up books on my bedside table. I'm so excited. She's here today. Welcome to the healthy screen habits podcast, Jennifer Joy Madden.

Jenifer Madden (01:12):

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Hillary (01:15):

So Jennifer getting into it in the past, decade or so I would say in the parenting education world, the term "resiliency" is the one that's been bandied about the most of people kind of striving for this building, resilient children. You're the first person I know to use this term "durable". And can you explain kind of what it is to be a durable human and how it's different from that concept of resiliency?

Jenifer Madden (02:03):

Sure. When we think of resiliency or being resilient, we think about being able to bounce back from adversity, which is wonderful and certainly stands us in good stead whenever we hit something major. The word durable is more about enduring bumps on the road of life, having that internal strength and those skills that can keep us moving forward and not be knocked over all the time. Not having to worry about being resilient in a way, because we are going to be durable and we can stand. I like to use an analogy of, if you picture Prairie grasses, they're standing there and the wind comes through they blow over almost flat and then they come back up. That's a little bit like resiliency that the, you endure this and they come back. But they're definitely knocked over for a while.

Jenifer Madden (03:04):

When you think about being durable, I like to tell parents, especially to think of a Giant Sequoia, Giant Sequoias are thousands of years old. They have endured many multiple forest fires. They get through them and it actually clears the land around them and allows the seeds to generate. And so that's what I would like to have as people's visual of durable is that you are secure and your children like that. They like to have you be not blown over in the latest wind that comes by. And so that's what we would strive for. 

Hillary (03:56):

Yeah and in doing that, what we're modeling is durability for our kids, teaching them so they can see how, how it looks as well as how it feels.

Jenifer Madden (04:09):

Right. And I think that with the digital world, we need to be durable in multiple ways. So we need to be durable in mind, body and relationships and the advent of smartphones and other smart technology they have affected our minds and bodies and our relationships in a lot of different ways because we didn't evolve with these synthetic objects. And so of course they've had effects. And now we're starting to realize what they are after. You know, these many years that we've had smartphones.

Hillary (05:05):

You talk about this kind of, I love this visual of the triple crown of durability, and you even have these three little great jewel icons that make up the points on the crown and each jewel represents one of those things that you were just talking about with the, the physical aspect, the other things like that. And do you, could you go over the, each of those three points or jewels that make up this crown of durability? 

Jenifer Madden (05:45):

I'd be happy to, but just a couple more words about durable. I think what happened when all these smart devices came around, we forgot about what we have that they don't. And when we think about being durable, we have to think about what are we, what's our edge as a human being. And that's why I call myself a cheerleader for humanity. We've got so many amazing things that, that are our super powers that our devices don't have. And they'll never have. That is, for instance, let's just take the simple hug, the power of touch, we'd make billions if we could sell and bottle a hug because it's a tranquilizer, muscle relaxant and love potion. That's our simple hug. It's amazing smartphones and computers. Can't do that. We need to understand the powers that we have, especially as parents with the power of touch.

Jenifer Madden (06:41):

We also have the glance. We can speak to each other, without words. It's a wonderful thing. You're in the grocery store with your significant other, with your toddler and whoa, there are the signs they're going to blow. And so you give that eye contact and nod and you're out of there. And then we have our senses. We have our five senses and yes, our phones have a vision and sensors can hear, and the machines can do that stuff, but they don't have intuition. They don't have compassion, they don't have curiosity. And so with that background, I will definitely go over the triple crown of durability, which is to keep our mind, body and relationships durable. And the first one is represented by a wrench and it's supposed to be that we need to have our "self" skills. We need to continue to have skills to rely on ourselves rather than always outsourcing to technology. I actually call phones and tablets alt-brains.

Hillary (07:55):

I love that phrase.

Jenifer Madden (07:58):

And we can definitely turf to the alt- brains. And even down to GPS, there is a section in how to be a durable human about GPS is awesome. My gosh, I use it all the time, but GPS is actually detracting from an area of our brain called the hippocampus. If we don't try to help ourselves remember how to get places that's going to shrink. And so

Hillary (08:26):

If you don't use it you lose it.

Jenifer Madden (08:28):

Exactly. So when you go somewhere, especially a little bit nearby, where you can afford to perhaps be lost as you're going, memorize the objects along your way, the steeples, the stores, the malls. So you could, and then on the way back, challenge yourself, challenge yourself to come back without you using the GPS that exercises your brain and that part called the hippocampus. Uh so, that's just one little skill. There's a bunch of other ones like how to hold a conversation, how to, to shake hands, with kids, how to play because playing, exercises kids' imaginations, and if they play outside, they have an opportunity to make independent choices. They also exercise - keep their bodies durable by having increasing strength and coordination. Every time you walk on a log you're increasing your coordination. I say that by depriving kids of going outside and playing you are setting them up for not being a durable human. Not only are they not going to be good in sports that doesn't even, that's not even as crucial as not being able to have that, ability to be graceful and coordinated and to have some core strength in your body. We are human animals, and so we need to move. We need to strengthen our muscles and take care of our muscles. 

Hillary (09:57):

It's so true. One of the things that we are aware of with our aging population, more and more, is the difficulties surrounding balance and how, how detrimental a fall can be in your older age. So setting yourself up from a young point to have that sense of balance, I think is critical, right?

Jenifer Madden (10:24):

And that's not all I would add in Well, of course, vitamin C, but vitamin D exposure from being outside over a lifetime is gonna help have healthier bones in older age. , So that gets us to our second jewel, of the triple crown, which is genuine relationships, which is, whereas the first jewel is independence The second one is interdependence, which is so important for success in adult life is to be able to get along with others, not only that, but also to know your own spidey sense, to actually have enough time in your own skin and with other people that you can begin to read faces, where you can re begin to read body language. And this is why that we have to have a healthy separation from our devices, because we need to have time in our days and our weeks to be able to observe and understand our own senses and how we interact with other people. And interdependence is so crucial for our survival in this world. No one is an island.

Hillary (12:31):

Right - And now that we're learning more and more about the loneliness studies and the effects that loneliness can have long term on health, I completely see why the inter-dependence plays into durability because the research that's out there surrounding loneliness, equates it up there with like smoking. And I mean, stuff that we know is very detrimental to health long term.

Jenifer Madden (12:58):

Right. Loneliness. That's true.

Hillary (13:43):

It factors into that relationship building, as well as tapping into that kind of superpower of being a human, like you talked about with the power of just reading one another and touch and things by, you know, the turn-taking that comes by passing a ball back and forth or doing anything along those lines.

Jenifer Madden (14:03):

Starting in infancy. If a child is only experiencing a ball on a screen, maybe they can even recognize a ball. A toddler can say ball and follow it along the screen, unless they handle that ball in real life. They are not going to understand how it feels and how it works. Basic elements of gravity, of how you drop it. Kids it's, it's delightful for them to drop their food off their height, their tray of their highchair, and it's, it's teaching them. And so, yes, parenting is messy, but it also is three-dimensional. The child is never going to get what they need from a two dimensional screen environment. They can parrot the word "ball", but they need to know how to throw it and catch it. That's the inter-dependence, the skill of throwing and parents can play and, and teach their kids to play and just put out a basket and a ball, throw them how to show them how to drop it into the basket, create a game, that's play. And that's building the neural connections and the child's brain. the 2-D environment can't do that.

Hillary (15:16):

Right and I love that idea of just setting out the basket and the ball, because that kind of also feeds into that your third jewel of curiosity, which I think sparking that is key.

Jenifer Madden (15:33):

Yes, we can set them up for success to be able to solve problems. How can I have fun with this ball? I'm going to throw it in the basket. How accurate can I be? You know, and, and it helps them to expand their minds. And so curiosity is what we all need to follow.

Jenifer Madden (16:21):

Every human being is unique. Every single one is different. We are, we want to be different from each other because that's how we come up with new ideas. And as human beings, those new ideas are what differentiate us from a herd of sheep. And so we don't want to be a herd of sheep. And the reason is because we are going to be all that they're all similar. They're actually like a lump, a cohesive whole, and they can be sidelined all of them. And so we don't want to be a herd of sheep. So we must give ourselves and our kids the ability to follow our own curiosity. So we create the ideas that keep us relevant in society. I think if we don't follow our curiosity and come up with new ideas, we can easily be sidelined and if we don't preserve our spidey sense, our curiosity and those special super powers that we have, we don't, we don't have any value to society anymore. So this is kind of serious to recognize how serious, how you are as a human being and what your assets are, and to keep those durable, right.

Hillary (17:51):

I'm really interested to hear more. But first we have to take a little break.

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Hillary Wilkinson (17:59):

I'm speaking with Jennifer Joy Madden, who I also just learned, goes by the name Professor JJ. She is an adjunct professor at Syracuse University, and that cracked me up. I immediately picture you like dropping a mic and throwing a beat.

Jenifer Joy Madden (18:18):

I like that. That's a good comment.

Hillary (18:19):

You make a point about being a durable human as the,uor one of the points that you make is a simple request. Like you had talked about respecting your structure or in other words, to watch your health. And in this digital age that we're living in, we see this rise in so many areas of health concerns.

Jenifer Madden (20:21):

Yes, actually I mentioned DVTs, which are, deep vein thrombosis.

And DVTs have occurred in people that sit for long periods, So it used to be, it was in airplanes. You'd have to get up and walk around. I recommend in the book, drawing the ABCs with your toes. I love that practical tip to be able to keep it going. But what happens with video gaming is they tend to, people tend to really become engrossed. They forget to get up and for sometimes many hours, way more than two. So in this case from Great Britain, this 20 year old kid got up, he was actually trying to go to the employment center to get a job. He walks in the door and he drops dead. He had thrown a clot from somewhere in his body. That's what happens when we sit for long periods of time, clots can form and can drift up and block very important vessels.

Jenifer Madden (21:24):

And then we snuff out. We don't want to do that at age 20. And so I'm, I'm pretty sure that the video gaming community in terms of the professionals are told to move, but we have to all do that on a regular basis. So in the book I recommend getting up every hour, if this is the way you're going to remember, just remember every hour you could do it every hour on the hour. And I could hear my timer. Yeah. Set a timer. Sure. You can do that on your phone or whatever. I hear my, my, my, my nature people in my ear, you know, saying what people shouldn't be sitting for hours in front of a screen anyway, but I'm just saying, you know, it's just, it's necessary sometimes to do that on. And we just have to move every hour. And I did even getting ready for this interview. You know, I did 60 jumping jacks on the hour. I didn't feel like it. I just did it. And I know chances are I'm not going to have a DVT.

Hillary (22:25):

Right. But you're building your durability even just in building in those little points of exercise.

Hillary (22:32):

Yeah, exactly. So the other phrase that I was introduced to in your book, which I find mildly horrifying is digital dementia. And can you talk about that?

Jenifer Madden (22:44):

Well that is a little less understood, the research is not there yet....

Jenifer Madden (23:54):

There is something that's called virtual autism that I write about, and that is that little children, as we talked about earlier, really need to experience the world with all their senses, all five of them, not just the couple they can use, you know, swiping across or, you know, grabbing at a screen. And they, if they don't utilize those, their brains actually don't follow the proper development. And they can have negative, very negative effects by not having enough, three-dimensional, full sensory and face-to-face experience in play and reading with their family members. And so, yeah, that's a, that's a definite thing, scientists are discovering it all over the world. And they're seeing that babies and toddlers who are on screens for it's looking like more than four hours a day, their brains can develop in a way, they develop autistic-like symptoms.

Jenifer Madden (24:57):

And apparently from their research. And I explained this on my website that they are, if the child is removed from screens, screens are not an element in the household. Face to face play, reading, talking happens not only with the parents, but with the siblings and grandparents and at daycare and everything else that full sensory 3-D life experience that kids' brains, luckily because of neuroplasticity, return to more of a normal pathway and development. Thank goodness. So they lose the autistic like symptoms at that point.

Hillary (25:37):

So recovery is hopeful.

Jenifer Joy Madden (25:41):

It is hopeful as long as the household does remain screen light at the very least if not screen-free.

Hillary (25:50):

Right. And I know one of the things you also have taken a deep dive into is eye health, particularly coming out of the pandemic when we've all been totally reliant on technology. I mean, you're saying these numbers of like, oh, you know, preschool or being on a screen for two, two to four hours a day. And, you know, there was a time when we would have like, you know, gasped in shock that that had happened. But honestly, I mean, that was, that was a preschool day, easy for you for a lot of people who had to work or anything else. So what, what can you tell us about eye health?

Jenifer Madden (26:24):

There's a lot you can do to preserve your eye health, which I'm so happy to know about. In fact, the American Optometric Association, and I had an emergency summit just a few months ago, because they were so concerned about children coming with eye-aches, dry eye, myopia, which is near-sightedness during the pandemic that it has been exacerbated. It's so much that they were really concerned, but they do have some techniques that we can all use again, to have breaks on a regular basis. So every 20 minutes, we all should look away from the, from the screen for about 20 seconds out the window, if possible, you know 20 feet away at least. What that does is it retains our versatile vision. So we've been looking close that allows us to look far.

Jenifer Madden (27:19):

And I will tell you Hillary, that my eyes feel so much better when I don't forget that when I forget it, it's just, things start closing in on my forehead. I can really feel it coming on. And then I look out and I, I can just feel my head and almost my whole body relaxing. So starting, you know, helping your kids from an early age, just have that 20/20 rule. I don't know if you know this, but there's an epidemic of myopia around the world that started before COVID, myopia is nearsightedness. The eyeball shape changes when we stare at a screen for a long period, and it doesn't necessarily change back. And at that point, kids need glasses. Guess what? This is so cool. Being outdoors in the sunshine helps maintain a child's eye in the natural round shape. That's how brilliant our body is. It has these ways to heal itself. And so the 20 20 20 rule has been extended to: a kid should have 20 minutes of a break from a screen outside for a total of two hours a day. And I know that sounds really extreme to be outside, but that's, what's being shown is that two hours a day outside helps a child's eyesight remain normal, even if they're using screens sometimes during the day. So that's a really beautiful thing. And so that 20, 20, 20 break rule, and then parents, if you enforce the "move every hour" rule, then they're going to have more eye breaks. So that works together really well. If people know what kids need in order become durable humans, they know that kids need time. They need the skills of cooking and cleaning up and all those life skills. And that, that reduces the amount of time after school a kid even has to be on screens. Cause there's all sorts of other things they need to do.

Hillary (30:03):

Chores.

Jenifer Madden (30:07):

Chores! It's our job as parents to help our kids get those adult skills so they can go out into the world. We do them a disservice if we do not have them doing chores, I agree.

Hillary (30:25):

Probably much to the dismay of my children!

 Yeah. Okay. So let's continue talking about this durable parenting in the digital age. One of the things you talk about on actually page 57 of "How To Be A Durable Human" is the "pinch of generosity". And this really resonated with me. I had never made that connection of putting my device off and away - as translating to being generous with my time towards my children. I'd love to hear you expand upon these thoughts here we go from page 57 is "One of your greatest assets as a human being is the capacity to be generous. The meaning of which can be confusing. Giving that old stained coat to a homeless shelter may count as generosity, but it can be a relief to pitch it. True generosity hurts just a little. It pinches not to check your phone when you want to." So as humans, we tend to be pain averse, but you're encouraging us to kind of lean into the pinch!

Jenifer Madden (31:44):

That's right. Feel the burn it's, it's a little bit like that. And it is knowing ahead of time that it takes effort not to always check, but I would like to flip that and look at it in a more positive way and say that every time you give your child one-on-one attention, they can see your eyes and they can know that you're paying attention to them - is building their inner strength and building that special attachment that you have between you and them Attachment, secure attachment. When they know you're there for them, it is going to be the foundation for their success in life. No question about it. Kids need us to pay attention to them. And too often we've developed continuous partial attention. And that is having the phone in hand, always keeping an eye on the phone. Even when we're talking to the person in front of us, it is very damaging for children's self esteem and it forces them away.

Jenifer Madden (32:45):

And in fact, it can force them into relying on their devices.

Hillary:

For comfort.

Jenifer Madden:

Exactly. And so what we need to do is we need to know it is going to take effort to put the phone out of sight when I'm talking to my daughter or son. Take it out of our hand and put it out of sight and learn how to not be fidgeting, you know, ready to like grab it. So that whole procedure is going to take practice. It takes a little effort, but when you feel that pinch of generosity, you can smile in your heart.

Hillary (33:34):

Do you have any tips for keeping the phone away?

Jenifer Madden (33:38):

I definitely have some tips. What you want to do is set yourself up for success. And so you can design your household to give yourself little nudges, you will create these moments of togetherness and eye contact with your kids in different ways. So for instance, you know, everybody comes together for meals. The idea is to have a place for the devices to go while you're eating. So you can pay attention to them during the meal and they can get vital social skills. So I call it the gadget basket. And I always like to say with meals, it's a really great time for parents to observe. If you sit back and they're talking, you can be looking at their eyes and their faces, and you'll be able to tell if something's bothering them right. Then they might not say anything, but you can watch them. If you're not looking at their faces during dinner, you're going to miss it. You could miss that glance, that glance could tell you everything and save you months of problems later on because you didn't notice it.

Jenifer Madden (35:21):

So set your phones aside at that time. And then also at again at bedtime set aside an hour or two before bedtime, that gets everybody's brains kind of w unwound to get ready for bed. And also you can have those heart to hearts and have again having this physical and eye to eye contact and get the kids ready and used to having that wonderful skill that we all need of separating from their phones. We, you know, it can be a habit to actually have the phone in hand all the time. The child could actually not feel as confident unless they have the phone in hand. So one of the skills we need to teach as parents is to have them have healthy separation from their phones and therefore, so one of the things you could do is make sure that they charge their phone out of their bedrooms. Not only will they have more solid sleep, but they'll also learn that skill of separating from their phones. And the next day there'll be better students, better friends, because they've had solid sleep. So that's a nudge that works all the way around.

Hillary (36:29):

Sure. Yeah. We recommend charging phones at a family station and we actually recommend it in the master bathroom because that way it protects your sleep and it prevents the urge for sneaking and checking if you have the phone say charging in the kitchen. We have many, many, many stories of creative teenagers who are, you know, helping themselves to the phones in the middle of the night in the kitchen. So having it in the master bathroom kind of set some boundaries around it and helps that.

Jenifer Madden (37:04):

Yep. I think you're absolutely right.

Hillary (37:06):

So when we come back, I'm going to ask Jenifer for her healthy screen habit, but in a little bit different of a way that we normally do things.

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Hillary (37:20):

We're back. I'm talking with Jenifer Joy Madden, the founder of durable human, who is on a mission to help you reach your full potential as a human being supported, not thwarted by technology. I love that. Now, Jennifer, as you know, on every episode of the healthy screen habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. I know you have many tips, some of what you've just shared with us. However, I do have a special request for you on the last page of "How To Be A Durable Human". You wrote a paragraph that is honestly, it's so beautiful. I couldn't read it without crying. So I didn't want to, I didn't trust myself to share it today without like being the weird host, who's breaking down in tears. And, but I think it's the most important tip that people can hear. So instead of doing a typical, Healthy Screen Habit, do you think you could read the last page of your book for us?

Jenifer Madden (38:25):

I would be honored to do that. And I appreciate how closely you read my book that you noticed this part. So thank you for that of so sure. Yes. I will read this last bit and it says: " Every day, do things your smartphone can't. Watch the sunset, sniff dewey magnolias, walk barefoot in the grass, get lost in a book, make something, giggle with your baby, hug your teenager, daydream, sing and dance, play charades. Tell stories, linger with someone older and wiser. Take a nap, listen to crickets, follow your heart, Savor the privilege of being human.

Hillary (39:33):

Uh See?! Got me again! I'm all teary. No, it just reads like art to me. It does. It's like a beautiful poem for humanity. Ah, I was not going to be the weird, the weird host that started crying over content, but here you go.

Jenifer Joy Madden (39:53):

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.

Hillary Wilkinson (39:55):

Just beautiful. Thank you so much for being here. I can't encourage people to please visit durable human.com to learn more about Jennifer joy Madden enough, the work she's doing. And I will definitely link both of your books in the show notes. They'd make beautiful gifts even as a baby shower, they would make, they would just be a beautiful gift to someone I think! Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like for people to know about?

Jenifer Madden (40:46):

Yes, we had talked about eye care and I do have a mini course at durable U on family eyecare with the 20, 20, 20 rule. But also things like how you can get a free, comprehensive eye exam for your six month old, to one-year-old baby anywhere in the U S. So that's pretty awesome, but all sorts of other tips for helping keep your eyesight durable and to try to avoid having to get glasses it's possible with little kids. And, I also have a course for new and pre-parents on how to have the philosophy to raise a child who is durable and fully develop their brain and language skills by things like attachment and allowing them to follow their curiosity and that sort of thing. And it's, it's not so hard once you kind of understand about how brains develop and what we need as human beings with that full sensory experience to, to make sure that we can help our children reach their full potential and follow that special, unique curiosity that's inside their heart.

And then if you don't mind giving a link to the Durable Family Pledge, this is, these are nine super simple habits. The family can look at those together in a family meeting all the habits and be like, okay, well, we're going to try this one for four weeks. And then they practice them. So I want to give you have the pledge link there for, for your listeners. They can try that if they want.

Hillary (42:57):

Well, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing all of your work.