S4 Episode 7: Talking About Teens and Sexting // Sean Clifford of Canopy

“We generally provide 3 vectors of advice: The first is you’ve got to prepare your kids…the second thing is you’ve got to protect your kids…and then the third thing-- and this, oftentimes, is the hardest one-- you’ve got to be the example.”

-Sean Clifford

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://canopy.us/

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Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:09):

Just a heads up today's episode deals with the topics of teens and sexting. I wanna give you a heads up, listeners, in case you are either not in a space where you can listen to this topic today, (and I completely respect that) or have smaller ears around you. That being said, it's an incredibly important episode, and I really hope you make time in your schedule to listen when you can.

As the founder of Canopy, an organization, committed to empowering families, to enjoy a customized and healthy internet experience. My guest today aims to help build a world of healthy tech users. This means tackling some tough topics. If you've been with me for any amount of time or listened to other episodes, you'll be familiar with what I call the Big Three. These are the three top areas that we see causing the most damage to relationships and self worth in this digital wellness arena, the big three are gaming, social media, pornography sexting, or the sending and receiving of salacious images often combines two of these three: social media and porn. It's a very real thing in today's dating world. And one that we must talk about with our teens. So I'm so glad to have an expert to ask my questions to! Welcome to the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast. Sean Clifford!

Sean Clifford (01:33):

Thank you so much for having me on.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:37):

Excellent. I'm interested to hear a little bit about your background, Sean, what was your motivation behind founding Canopy and how did you kind of get started in this space?

Sean Clifford (01:50):

Absolutely. So most importantly, I'm the father of four. And so I feel at a, uh, kind of gut level, just a strong desire to let my kids be kids and had spent a lot of time, uh, around thankfully had some friends whose kids were a little bit older and just saw what was coming and the challenges that they confronted. It came to the realization that in many respects we are the first generation wrestling with the challenges posed by unfettered access to the internet first and then the ubiquitous device second and wanted just to make sure that there were tools to help us do this, uh, to navigate this with a little bit more, uh, intentionality behind. Did I continually hear from parents that they feel as if their capacity to parent has been ripped from them? Uh, the second that their kids kind of are able to plug in and we wanted to make sure that we could provide families a chance to reclaim that.

Sean Clifford (02:45):

So that was kind of the inspiration for it. Um, the pathway to Canopy was somewhat serendipitous. I engaged on a project, um, in Israel. And while there I met this amazing figure who, uh, during our very first breakfast said that he thought technology was gonna transform a generation sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways. And he was gonna build out artificial intelligence to make sure that families could get the good without the bad. And that was the first of many, many conversations. Uh, and he spent a lot of time building out that tech and, um, as my kids got older, I give 'em a call and we jumped in and we're off to the races.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:22):

Awesome. So just real briefly, can you explain, we're talking a lot about Canopy, but I'm realized we haven't even explained what it is. Can you, can you just briefly give us a synopsis on what Canopy is?

Sean Clifford (03:36):

Absolutely. Canopy is software that you would download to your child, smartphone, tablet, or computer. We're able to scan all internet traffic in real time as they browse and remove and block any pornographic content on any website. Um, by looking at every word, every image, every video before it hits your child's screen, we also have the capacity to analyze photos captured by a device. So if you have a smartphone and you try and take a photo that contains nudity, our software will flag that and give the user a choice to either delete it on the spot or to send it to mom or dad for approval. So this is our attempt to try and, um, arrest the trend of sexing, which as you noted, regrettably is becoming much more common.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:18):

So Canopy falls into the area of kind of filtering, correct?

Sean Clifford (04:31):

Yeah. We kind of straddle the, the line between filtering and parental control. Um, candidly, we don't love the term parental control cause I don't think parents wanna be controlling. Don't think kids want to be controlled. We want tools that empower them to kind of live consistent with what they want from the internet, uh, which right now, regrettably, we don't always have the, the choice of what we consume. So we like to think of ourselves as being in the digital parenting space.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:56):

Have you seen during the time that you've been involved with Canopy, have you seen a change or difference kind of in this realm since the like pre pandemic during pandemic and now as we're kind of, you know, cautiously moving forward?

Sean Clifford (05:13):

Yes. So going back pre pandemic look, a lot of these trends were already underway and Dr. Jean Twenge, who wrote the book, iGen had already documented the extent to which these devices were transformed a generation. And so that was in place the pandemic, I think only accelerated it. Um, but it also forced a lot of reflection, I think on how we're using technology. This was a great moment in which, you know, penetration of cell phones among teen was already high, but schools went online. Uh, socialization went online so much of the way we lived was, uh, forced through our smartphones and our devices. Um, and while I think that was, uh, a lifeline to a lot of people who were struggling with, uh, isolation, um, it also, I think kind of exacerbated some challenges. Sure. But, uh, on a positive note caused some reflection as well.

Sean Clifford (06:08):

Um, on the topic of sexting within the first three months of the pandemic Google search for sexting, uh, increased by 300%, the numbers around sexting pre pandemic were one out of four American teenagers had received a sext. One out of seven had sent one. Um, and it's only increased since then. And so this is becoming, uh, regrettably normalized, um, as they have the access in just culturally, as it becomes, um, something that they're just more accustomed to. So, um, it's gotten to the point now, just the last stat I'll throw out at you. And this was from last year, I believe two thirds of American teenage girls have been asked to send a nude photo of themselves to someone that they know.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:54):

I wanna get into how we talk to our teens as to what's an appropriate way to respond. How can they, you know, just, just kind of give them some defense modes if we can. Uh, but first we have to take a little break when we come back. Let's get into that!

Hillary Wilkinson (07:56):

My guest is Sean Clifford, founder of Canopy and dad of four.  Before starting Canopy he served as vice president of Barron public affairs, where he advised leading tech ventures in Fortune 500 companies at the intersection of culture and policy. I bring this up because Sean, before we get into those kind of applicable tips on how to talk to our teens directly about sexting, I wanted to take a little more global stance. Let's do the 50,000 foot view and ask you: Do you have hope for policy changes that might protect our children?

Sean Clifford (08:43):

I do have hope. Um, I just don't know on what time horizon, I should be hopeful. I think that the movement is now emerging driven, by well, advances in neuroscience. We understand what this does to the brain. Um, an emerging coalition of groups that, uh, recognize the challenges that, uh, stem pretty directly from how we're utilizing our technology, but perhaps more than anything, just the ground swell of parents, but also kids that have come to the, in that the ways that technology has inserted itself into our lives is not making us happy. And in fact is oftentimes a driver of anxiety and, um, kind of, uh, mental, uh, anguish and not all look, there's a lot of things going on. They’ve gotta sort through the questions of correlation and causation, but people recognize that we've gotta figure it out. I don't think Tech's gonna go away.

Sean Clifford (09:40):

And so the question is how are we gonna find our way towards a, a better path, um, how much nudging needs to come from, um, kind of the regulatory and policy bodies and how much will be voluntarily adopted by the companies that recognize this. Um, you're starting to see some movement in this. I'm, I'm hopeful about that, but, um, I'll be honest with you. I've got four kids, 10, uh, all the way down to two years old and I'm not content to wait for that to move, cuz I think it'll happen, but I'm not sure it'll happen before my kids have to make some tough decisions.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:16):

I could not agree with you more and I'm, I'm further down the path in parenting. And um, I certainly hope that policies will be created and upheld to benefit public health. But I also recognize the mechanics of our legal system will not be quick enough to protect my teens, which when it comes down to it, that is where I am deeply vested! Yes. And so do you have, can we go back to what you were talking about before the break and what can you share? What are some of the biggest tips you have to keep teens safe online?

Sean Clifford (10:58):

We generally provide three vectors of, uh, advice. The first is you've got to prepare your kids. And the biggest component of this is you have to have conversations with them early and often, far earlier than you'd like, which I hate. I sincerely regret that. But, um, you know, just in, in one domain where we work, uh, the age of exposure to pornography by some accounts is now somewhere between nine and 11 years old, um, which is atrocious and as uncomfortable as it may be for a parent to have a conversation with a 9 or 10 year old, it's far superior to them learning about this from Google or, uh, strangers online. So having conversations with your kid, preparing them for what's out there.  Also, I think equipping them, um, with the vocabulary, if you'll bear with me, I think most parents roll their eyes when I say this. Um, but I'll say it all the same, even though my oldest is 10 years old, we talk to her about what dopamine is and how there are things out there that are exciting and, um, they're instant gratification engines. 

Hillary Wilkinson (12:05):

Okay. Uh, and so…..Can I have you back up just for a second in case anybody is unfamiliar with the term dopamine and what it might be?

Sean Clifford (12:13):

Dopamine is a neurochemical that is associated with craving and it's the chemical that's, uh, most, um, closely tied to kind of instant gratification. So when you post something online and someone likes it, you get a little dopamine hit. When you have a little bit of sugar, you get a dopamine hit, um, the little thrills in life, not all of which are bad by the way, um, that we experience our brain releases dopamine so that we know to pursue that activity that gave us that little thrill over and over again. Um, and it's an incredibly powerful chemical and an important one. And, uh, it does a lot of great things as well. The thing that we have learned, uh, in science and apologies for jumping down this rabbit hole, but, uh, we've never been in a scenario where we flooded our brains with as much dopamine as we're doing now because of the accessibility, both of sugar and whether it's pornography or social media and the validation that comes from that or games or gambling. Um, so we're kind of in a, a uncharted territory there. The second thing, um, which was revealed to me in a book called The Hacking of the American Mind, uh, found that when you have too much dopamine in your brain, it blocks the serotonin receptors. Quick definition there, serotonin.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:30):

I was gonna say let's let's yeah, go back into serotonin.

Sean Clifford (13:34):

Serotonin is the chemical that you get when you've, uh, I'm going to, uh, simplify it as much as I can that, uh, when you've done something hard and like achieved an outcome that you've really been working on. So imagine that you've just summited a mountain that you've been climbing and you're cold and you're hungry and you're thirsty. Um, and it was really, really hard, but that sent of satisfaction and contentedness that you get, um, that's what I think most people, when we start to talk about happiness and what we want for our kids, it's that stand of that state of contentedness, well, guess what, when you're flooding your brain with dopamine, it actually blocks the serotonin receptors. And so you feel empty. And so where do you turn when you feel empty and unhappy towards the things that provide that immediate hit, which is dopamine, which then blocks more serotonin receptors, right?

Sean Clifford (14:23):

And you go in this terrible negative downward spiral, uh, which kind of results in people that are very deeply unhappy. They can't climb out and their brain is so, um, flooded with dopamine. Uh, and it takes a while to kind of clear it out. And so just quick caveat, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I did marry one. So that's where, uh, this is all coming from. So, sorry, jump way down that rabbit hole. But I think we talked to our daughter about that and we try to ask her when she's navigating life: “ are the things that you're doing that are making you happy, kind of in the dopamine space or the serotonin space?” And I know that sounds so nerdy. Um, but we really want her to understand what she's feeling, what the source of this is, and to the extent that we can to nudge her towards like more lasting good fuel rather than the bad fuel.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:14):

Right? No, I think we do the same thing when we teach our kids about nutrition. I mean, sure. If you're hungry, what automatically you're pulled to is that high calorie, type food to, to immediately solve the craving. But if we can teach our kids, okay, that will give you a quick fix. And then ultimately you're going to feel worse. Or if you can go more towards a protein based, something, something with a little more, you know, sticking power, you're going to it'll, it might take a little longer to reach that healthy, that, that feeling of satiety, but you'll, you'll be there longer in the long run. And I, I don't think 10 years old is too early to start teaching that. I mean, we start teaching the names of, of different parts of our bodies as soon as a toddler can talk and our brain is simply a part of our body.

Sean Clifford (16:08):

Yes. So we've alright. So I'm, I'm sorry. I, uh, I took us way off course that's okay. The thing is just, you've got to prepare your kids, I think the second thing is you've gotta protect your kids. We think that these devices are amazing. Um, and they're also potentially dangerous. And so taking safeguards, uh, and our household, I think Canopy is this solution that, that we've wanted, but, uh, there's lots of things and tools out there that you can use to make sure that your kids have space to be kids and to avoid exposure to some of the more problematic aspects of the online world, whether it's screen addiction, um, or pornography or sexting, you know, uh, a number of other things. And then the third thing, and this oftentimes is the hardest one. I think you parents, you've got to provide an example.

Sean Clifford (17:02):

Um, it is so much more powerful when you say to your kids, there's no devices at the table. If you don't have the device at the table, if you say you can't have device in your room, that's just a rule like in our household, that's a rule, um, lot easier to do if they don't see my wife and I sitting on our beds with a device in our hand. Um, and that's hard because this is, you know, this is an issue, I think for a lot of adults as well, just the, the tech addiction always being on, um, you know, I do, I work and my smartphone is a portal to work and so I sometimes have to do it, but demonstrating those boundaries for them is so important. 

Hillary Wilkinson (17:43):

Yeah. So just to sum up, the three vectors that you're talking about are essentially education,  protection, and example. Did I get all three of those?

Sean Clifford (17:52):

Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:53):

Awesome. So what do you recommend, or how do you recommend we start talking to our teens about sexting? So, I mean, we're, we're all the way along. We're talking to our young ones about, you know, our neurochemicals and keeping our brain healthy and Healthy Screen Habits and all of that. How do you broach the topic of sexting and what it is, et cetera. And is there an age that you recommend? Is there a developmental stage? What, what's your take on that?

Sean Clifford (18:33):

I think it's in flux. I think it will really depends, um, family by family. Um, I can't tell you the number of heartbreaking conversations I've had with families where they thought they were a couple years off from the conversation and it crept up on them. Um, so as hard and uncomfortable as it is, I don't think you'll regret having it earlier. And there are ways out there in resources to make it age appropriate where you're not, uh, I know a lot of people are concerned about it kind of accelerating that pathway by bringing it up too early. But I think there are ways to do it.  For sexting, I think there's some core issues that you can bring up earlier that then set the table for a more productive conversation. The first is, um, this concept that digital is forever. When you take a photo or send a message, you have to assume that it is going to be out there recorded and can be brought up, uh, at any time. And that concept doesn't apply exclusively to sex theme, but obviously has a lot of important implications there. And so this concept of digital is forever. Are you sure you want to write that? Um, you know, some parents will say never send something that you wouldn't be ashamed if your grandmother read it.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:45):

Right, the Grandma test.

Sean Clifford (19:46):

Yes. And look, I'm, I'm, won't always be applied, but that concept in general, um, I think as they're coupled with, I think it makes it a little bit more powerful. If you can walk through some of the case studies where someone has done something that was foolish, um, and it got out there and, you know, professionally, like in the last few years, the people number of people who have lost their jobs because of a tweet, they wrote 10 years earlier, um, it's kind of a astounding. And so like, you need to be mindful of that. And having those examples, I think can then help the kid understand, okay, this, this actually is real. I think in parallel to that conversations about, um, why people put images of nudity and pornography online? What is the allure?  um, why do people do crazy things like that?

Sean Clifford (20:35):

Um, you know, with young kids, it's like, they do crazy things like, you know, that's an example. Um, and just kind of understanding how to, uh, conceive of that. They will be exposed it at some point, regrettably. Um, we recognize even if you get Canopy on every device, uh, there will always be another device and at best we can push that off or give you space. Um, but your child almost undoubtedly will be exposed at some point. So having a conversation about what is, uh, the allure with that, why it happens, how to think about it, I think also then feeds into all right. It's time to have the conversation about sexing with those two things in place. Um, I think it'll be a more productive conversation. That'll be kind of prepared to handle it.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:20):

Awesome. Okay. So just to sum that portion up recommending of talking to our teens, and sexting is that, um, reminding them and for anyone who has been in any sort of digital citizenship class in the past, you know, five to 10 years, the whole concept of “digital is forever” should be something that they're quite familiar with. Uh, this gets tricky when you start talking about different apps like Snapchat, where you might need to point out the ability that, you know, recipients have of screenshotting images and therefore whenever the sender is putting thing out online, they're then relinquishing control forever because there's even in teens that I know now, they still have this underlying belief that, well, I put it on Snapchat and everything just goes away, you know, and that's not the case. So digital is forever. And the use of real life examples with that and talking to kids about why people put images online. So, Sean, what if, in spite of all of our talks and the, like I was referencing before the digital citizenship classes and the tech contracts and the family plan, you know, the day comes where, when you're doing your responsible parenting duty and you're doing a quick check of your teen's phone and you find out that your teen has been engaged in sexting. What do you recommend parents do then?

Sean Clifford (23:07):

Phenomenal question. Uh, and, and a challenging one. Um, I regrettably get this, uh, question quite a lot from parents oftentimes that's what leads them to kind of seek out a tool like Canopy to begin with. But I would say a few things first, just with respect to the disposition, the extent to which you can bring, um, humility and grace into the conversation is always recommended. Oftentimes, um, kids are afraid. Um, they've got a lot of fear. The immediate response is kind of one of anger because the parent recognizes the potential consequences. And I think that can lead into an unproductive direction. So first is collecting yourself before you enter into that conversation. Um, the second, I think critical thing is to take the efforts where possible to minimize the potential impact of it. Um, one, uh, there are some, uh, guides out there about how you can try and track down, um, the photo and make sure that it's been, um, deleted wherever possible.

Sean Clifford (24:12):

Um, and I think that's kind of an immediate thing that does provide some, um, some peace of mind about limiting this. I think a third thing is really trying to understand what job it was, uh, that the sext was doing. So there's this, um, kind of famous business, uh, theorist who, who always trying to understand human behavior. It's like, what job is that actually doing when sending that out? What were you actually looking for? Was it validation? Was it a deeper connection with someone and kind of getting to the heart of that, um, to understand it and to unpack that and to try and identify what the need is that was served by that. And what's a healthier, better way to do that, um, to kind of prevent this going forward because oftentimes we'll see kids almost develop this fatalistic mindset, one got out. And so then what's like, I'm already, I've already crossed the threshold, um, which you think would be counterproductive, but like we see it more often than you'd imagine. Um, so I think that's a, a really important step as well.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:15):

Oh, I, yeah. I'm glad you brought that up where it's the kind of, well, it doesn't matter anyways, sort of approach. So if, if one got out well, then everything's out there already.

Sean Clifford (25:29):

Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:30):

So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Sean Clifford for his healthy screen habit.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:50):

My guest today is Sean Clifford, founder of Canopy and dad of four who loves exploring trails outside with his family in Austin, Texas. So Sean, totally on a different approach, but I have to ask you, do you ever see any armadillos on your hikes?

Sean Clifford (26:16):

Armadillos? Uh, not on the hikes.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:19):

Oh, OK!

Sean Clifford (26:19):

Okay. And a huge number of deer for being in a, um, you know, Austin, Texas has the green belt around it and the number of deer that, you know, wandered to our front yard and like I'm in a neighborhood I'm not off on a trail, but a lot of those, more squirrels than I can count, but armadillos, regrettably, not quite as common.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:39):

Okay. I, I love an Armadillo, so I had to ask. Okay. So, Sean, on each episode I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one you can share with us?

Sean Clifford (27:00):

I do. I have many, but a lead with one that I think is kind of foundational. Um, and I actually picked this up. I want to give credit to Catherine Price who wrote a book called How to Break Up With Your Phone and in the book she recommends, uh, for about a week to put a little note card and a rubber band around your phone. And every time you pick it up, um, make note of the following, why are you picking it up? Why are you picking it up right now? Uh, and what else could you be doing with your time? And I added one thing on how long was I on, uh, the device for, and if you do this for a week, um, that can be tedious, even do it for just a couple of days. The number times were like, I don't have a good reason why I'm picking my phone up or the insights that I just kind of pulled away.

Sean Clifford (27:50):

It's like, this doesn't need to happen right now. It was just, it revealed to me how I had been habituated to use my device. And so that then led to a number of other attempts at forming healthier habits around it, really understanding how you use it now, currently, why I'm going to it, does it really need to happen now? How long am I spending on it? Um, was great. I know that there's tools like screen time, which kind of record this automatically, but I liked the act of writing it down, almost that add in that little extra hassle step. Um, cuz it, it just made me acutely aware of like my gosh, like I got to, I've got to change a couple of these things. So doing that for yourself, doing that with your kids. Um, we try and, you know, my kids are still very young, but uh, I try and get my wife to do it as well. And it just gives you a little bit of insight, the role that it's actually playing. And oftentimes there's a big Delta between perception and reality.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:45):

Yeah, yeah, no, I like that kind of infusion of analog experience into your digital world and it's, it is crazy how the analog act of physically, you know, pen to paper, writing it out. It puts you in a different head space. So I like that. I like that. Or, um, just kind of doing a self check and I agree with you. I think I'd get much different results out of that practice rather than just looking at my screen time usage and you know, I looking at yet another infographic or screen based model.  Thank you for that. So if our listeners would like more help keeping their teens safe and kids safe and talking points on sexting, they can find it@canopy.us.  As always,  I will link this information and show notes as well as references to the books that we've mentioned. You can find this by going to healthy screen habits.com, click on the podcast button and scroll down to find the episode you're looking for. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Sean!

Sean Clifford (29:53):

Thank you so much for having me on,  greatly appreciate it.