S5 Episode 5: Suicide By CyberBullying - Carson’s Story // Kristin Bride

“The problem with cyberbullying and anonymous cyberbullying is that this is not a brief hallway conversation that you're embarrassed about. Everybody can see it.”

- Kristin Bride

Healthy Screen Habit Takeaway

Resources

Resources Mentioned:

https://www.stopbullying.gov/

https://fairplayforkids.org/

https://screentimenetwork.org/

Show Transcript

(intro) 

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:19)

Okay. October is national bullying prevention month in the United States. And today's episode. Our first, for the month of October, tragically covers the event of what can happen when a child or teen experiences, the relentless nature of online bullying. If you're not in a place where you can listen today about teen death by suicide, please skip this episode. If you have smaller ears around you, it may be an episode you need to save until later, or perhaps listen with earbuds. This is a critical conversation for all of us to have, and none of us are immune. 

Please take care of yourself, make the best decision for your own mental health today and for the mental health of your family, and decide when's the best time for you to listen to this episode. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:21)

As I said, October is National Bullying Prevention Month, and it's very important we open this conversation with our kids about online bullying. For many reasons, we have to open these conversations to let our kids know that we're open to talk about these really hard things. Only 12% of all teens will report cyber harm to parents. My guest today is Kristen Bride, a mother who has become a force of awareness building and education on online bullying. Let me repeat that a force on awareness building and education of online bullying and the role that social media plays. This is not by choice. Kristin's life immeasurably changed on June 23rd, 2020, when her 16-year-old son Carson died by suicide, following vicious, cyberbullying through Snapchat and the use of anonymous apps We'll learn more about that later. Kristen, thank you so much for being here today. I really, you and I have had a chance to talk and I really want to honor and amplify Carson's story, your journey and help you with your passion to educate parents about deadly online bullying. So before we start though, I just wanna check in with you as a mom and how are you doing today?

Kristin Bride: (02:46)

Uh, I'm doing okay. I have okay days and I have bad days. Um, but what I'm finding is by channeling my grief into advocacy so that I can save other lives is what gets me through. And I, and I really appreciate this opportunity, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:07)

Oh, I can't thank you enough for being here. I've watched from the sidelines, what you were doing and all the progress that you've been able to make. And I just, we at Healthy Screen Habits could not be bigger, bigger, uh, fans of what you're doing, but not for the reason why you're doing it. I'm so, so sorry. So I'm, I'm so grateful you're here today. Cause I find this kind of this process of storytelling and sharing to have stronger individual impact than just the lists of statistics and charts. I feel like the numbers just get to be numbers, but when we can talk like mom to mom, person to person, it, it makes all of these things come real. And I, I heard about you through headlines, which is I, and now I feel like I know you and I, I just, I want, you're a mom who is standing up to social media giants and in hearing your story, it makes me want to do better for all children, as well as, um, in hearing your story I recognize my own family. Your boy is the same age as my children and your level of involvement and commitment to him. I relate to so, so much. So can we kind of, I'd like to start there with Carson. Can you tell us about Carson and what kind of guy your boy was?

Kristin Bride: (04:41)

Yes. Carson lit up the room with his incredible smile and blue eyes that he was, he was so proud that they changed in different seasons. Sometimes they were more greenish and, and sometimes more blue and he was, um, funny and witty, affectionate. He would hug me so that he would pick me off the floor, even though he was a little bit shorter than I am. He was a short guy. He was, uh, 5'4". And, and he was so hoping to get taller and I know he would've. Um, yeah, he, um, he lit up our family and um, it's, it's very different now without him.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:29)

I'm sure. I'm sure. And in talking about Carson, what was your approach in social media with him? What kind of conversations did you guys have? Kind of getting ready? Like I said, I read your story. I recognize my family. I know you, you and I had, we lived closer. Had we lived in the same town. We would've been the same, same soccer moms, the same den moms, the same, all the stuff. So I'm positive you had lots of conversations surrounding all of these things. And can you share with us sort of like what, what these were

Kristin Bride: (06:11)

Well, um, I actually dreaded the thought of my kids having phones. Um, and we waited as long as possible. Um, we waited until eighth grade for Carson to have a phone and he was the very last kid in his class to have a phone fortunately or unfortunately, um, many of the kids in his class had phones earlier and made some pretty serious mistakes, like sending around nudes. Um, and so that offered us an opportunity to talk about the risks and we would do we'd always have dinner together and talk about, um, the different things that can go wrong. One of the things that I did once they got phones and they were online a little bit more as I made posters for their rooms that said, "Don't write anything online that you wouldn't want on a billboard with your name and face next to it." And I am so proud of Carson because it, the last days of his life, when he was encountering such vicious messages, he never lowered himself. And so he really followed that until the end. So yes, we, we did. We thought everything right. Um, and this still happened.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:57)

Yeah, yeah, no, you did do everything right. I'd like to hear your take on big tech sort of portraying these, uh, social media platforms as fun, new ways for people to connect. And as we've learned, kind of through the test of time, there's this darker side to social media and many parents have no idea what their kids are experiencing in their online lives. Um, as I said earlier, it's reported that only 12% of teens will report cyber harm to their parents. And do, do you have a, like, do you have a gauge? Why do you think this number so little?

Kristin Bride: (08:57)

Yes, I've done a lot of thinking about this because Carson and I had a really close relationship and he would tell me things that happened at school that upset him. And, um, I felt like we were really close. So when we discovered after Carson's death that he'd been cyber bullied, I was shocked that he did not tell me, but from what I've read, and it does make sense. Parents are usually at such odds with kids about their phones, the screen use, don't bring it to the table, you know, and, and we had talked about all the terrible things that could happen online. And, um, they don't, their fear is that if they tell an adult that their phones will be taken away or they'll get the, "I told you so" lecture, the other thing that I've heard, that makes sense. And especially with Carson's class who had kind of a mantra "snitches get stitches" that you don't want to be the tattle tale or the snitch. Um, and so that's another factor that plays into it. Um, which makes sense to me. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:10)

Right.

Kristin Bride: (10:11)

Not that it's right. It's awful. Um, but it makes sense.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:16)

And I think also I have absolutely heard that the, the snitch portion in the teenage group is the worst like label you could have, but, you know, automatically directs you to, you know, outcast land mm-hmm . We can't underestimate how kids are afraid that the phones will get pulled if they come to, because as parents, we, that that's that, and that would be the quick fix, right. Would be, oh, you're having a problem online. Well, you know, just take away the device, but for kids, that's their main social lifeline, which developmentally that's where they're supposed to be focused, you know? So I, um, after I learned that, I made sure to try to communicate with my own, if you're having a problem online, it doesn't mean that your phone gets pulled. You know, it we, we work through it, so,

Kristin Bride: (11:37)

Right. And we would've done that as well. Oh, you know, we probably would've had the conversation like this probably isn't a healthy app to be using right now. Um, let's take a break from the app, but I don't, we would never have pulled his phone. Right. But there is that fear out there.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:54)

Right. Right. And I think the best way to continue Carson's story and learn about the work that you are continuing in his name is to sort of hear how it all went down. And we'll do that after we come back from this break. 

Ad Break — 988 the new National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline number

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:14)

My guest is Kristin Bride from Portland, Oregon. Her mission is to share her son Carson's story, to bring awareness of social media dangers that exist for teens today and encourage online safety legislation that will better protect America's children in the future. So Kristin, you're meeting one of those goals today in your mission by sharing Carson's story with us and  if you're okay, can you kind of give us a little of the backstory that led up to June 23rd?

Kristin Bride: (12:59)

Sure. So Carson had just finished his sophomore year and, um, because of COVID, um, like many schools, they were doing remote learning from March to June. And that was difficult for Carson, as it was for many kids, because he was a social kid and didn't learn well just online by himself. Um, but he made it through and he was really excited to get his first summer job. He was 16. He'd seen his brother get a job and he really wanted to work at, um, a place that made pizzas. And so he worked, um, walking to both, he hadn't gotten his driver's license yet because of COVID as well, but he walked to these two different locations and finally got a job making pizzas. And we were so proud of him. And he was proud of himself as well, especially trying to find a job during the middle of COVID.

Kristin Bride: (13:59)

And, um, he came home from his first night of training that I found out afterwards, went really well. And he wrote his upcoming work schedule on the calendar in front of me. And he, um, you know, said goodnight. And we all went to bed. And in the morning I woke up usually around 7:30, the kids always slept in later and went, um, to my computer in the kitchen where I am now. And I passed by his room and his door was open and he wasn't in his bed, but that wasn't unusual because sometimes he slept upstairs in the loft if he had a hard time sleeping. So I thought nothing of it. And I started to do work on my computer and I glanced down at my phone and I saw a text from him regarding a suicide note. And it was the most horrifying moment of my entire life.

Kristin Bride: (14:54)

I ran to the other side of the house, cuz I knew he wasn't in his room and I found him hanging in our garage. And I mean, honestly for the first three months after this happened, I thought this was a bad dream. I was in a coma. This hadn't really happened. It, I, it was so unexpected. And it was only later that we learned through the school community who started talking that he had been viciously cyber bullied leading up to his death.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:48)

So in speaking with kind of other researchers in this area of cyber bullying, they often state that, um, the bullying differs from online trolling in that bullying will begin via a series of real world events that have occurred. Now you guys were in the time of COVID, uh, did that hold up, were the online bullies people that he knew in real life? And I know, I, I mean, I know a lot of this was via anonymous apps, et cetera, but were there events that keyed in?

Kristin Bride: (16:27)

Yes. There were certain things that had happened when they were in school. Like he had fainted during biology class and, um, it was a cement floor and he was unconscious. And so a lot of the comments were what the kids did to him, while he was unconscious. Which were not true, but that was a really disturbing and upsetting event for him just in general, because he had never blacked out before. And um, so yes, the, to be clear, he only had a private Snapchat account. So the only people sending these messages were people he knew on his friends list and that's why it makes it so much, I think more upsetting. It's not a random person around the world that doesn't know you. Right. It's people who know you, they know what's happened to you. They know how to get your goat. They know what to say to upset you. And these are who you think are your so called friends. And, um, these, these messages were all coming to Carson anonymously, over Yolo and LMK, these two anonymous apps that at the time connected on the back end to Snapchat.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:47)

Yeah. Can you, I, I, I mean, honestly it wasn't until I heard Carson's story and have heard you speak, I, I didn't even know. And I'm in the, I mean, I'm like I'm in this niche of the world that I felt like I should know about these things. Can you explain what these backdoor apps are or these anonymous apps?

Kristin Bride: (18:07)

These two anonymous apps had gained that connection through Snap Kit so that kids with snap kit can download Yolo and then the two apps interface so that the messages, the anonymous messages are coming in from your Snapchat friends and you're, you're seeing them over Snapchat.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:49)

Right. And, um, I think, I think you've, you've kind of explained, but just to be clear, do you feel like it was more damaging that it was these anonymous apps, even though it was like, it had to be people that he knew clearly because there were, so the anonymous apps were particularly damaging?

Kristin Bride: (19:13)

Yes. Because you don't know how many people are involved. Is it two kids doing this? Is it multiple? Is it the whole class?

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:23)

And how many people can see it?

Kristin Bride: (19:25)

And everybody can see it. And that, that is also the problem with cyber bullying and anonymous cyber bullying is that this is not a brief high hallway conversation that you're embarrassed about. Everybody can see it. And he reached out to friends that he felt close to and said, "I can see getting a few of these, but why is my whole inbox flooded?" It was overwhelming. One of the things that the app allows you to do is ask somebody to swipe up and identify themselves. And he did do that. He said, “Clearly you have a beef with me, swipe up and let's talk it out”. Acting like such an adult in this.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:08)

So mature, so mature

Kristin Bride: (20:10)

And no one did. And in speaking to other teens after this happened, who have experienced this, it makes you feel so worthless. And like you have no friends, no one cares. Remember this is COVID. This was like the one way to connect with other peers. And it was all negative. And the last hack on hi or the last, um, search on his phone before he took his life, was for hacks to find out who was doing this to him. And so, yeah, I, I, I totally blame social media and anonymous apps in particularly.  Yeah. And we, this is not the first time this has happened. Every anonymous app has stories of cyber bullying and then suicides, and then they shut it down. Um, and Hillary, this is maybe a good time to mention, um, something that's really concerning right now is that there's a new anonymous app "NGL : Not Gonna Lie" that has gone viral and it's being downloaded more than Instagram itself. It, this one Snap made the right decision and pulled out of the anonymous app market. Um, thanks to,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:30)

I was gonna say, I think you get to take credit for this, Kristin.

Kristin Bride: (21:36)

We believe, we believe that it's, it was because of our advocacy and lawsuit that they made this decision, which was the right thing to do.  And we're grateful for that, but Instagram has now used this vacancy in the market to push, Not Gonna Lie, another anonymous app. It's being used and downloaded tr you know, in tremendous amounts right now. And they are not gonna lie saying that they moderate for, for cyber bullying. But the colleagues that I know that have tested it say that is not any better than the other ones. No. And what makes this even worse is that they are charging teens or users for hints as to who is messaging them.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:31)

So they can try to figure out who it is that's sending these messages.

Kristin Bride: (22:36)

But it's so vague, like "has an iPhone 13", that it's not enough to identify somebody. And so they're monetizing kids' anxiety and pain, and it is just a lot of people in the industry are really upset over this. And, um, I hope we can bring awareness through this podcast.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:59)

Yes.

Kristin Bride: (23:00)

Phone talk to them about this.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:03)

So how is there a way to check for this? Like, I mean, so this is a backdoor app to Instagram?

Kristin Bride: (23:11)

Right.

Kristin Bride: (23:11)

So you would have the icon on your phone. Now, one of the things that kids can do is still have it, but hide it on their home screen. So I encourage all parents that as part of the negotiation of having the phone is that you're really borrowing it or renting it and that you need to have, you need, I need to know your passwords. Yes. Um, in case there is a crisis, right. Um, and so parents can search on the phone for the app and it will pull up if it's hidden from the home screen. So, um, really talk to your kids about NGL, because this is terrifying. And we know that it's just a matter of time before we're gonna start hearing the same stories again.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:57)

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, it's - today it's NGL, as soon as you and I, as soon as this, I am positive that, we are recording in July. This will not drop this episode will not drop until October. I am positive. There will be the next thing by the time this goes, NGL will probably no longer be on the forefront. So it's so critical to talk about these anonymous apps and, and when you approached, this is a kind of a key component, I think that, uh, illustrates the importance of the parent child relationship, because can you explain when you approached the app developers in needing to find the identity of your son's bullies. How, how did that go?

Kristin Bride: (24:57)

Not well, uh, I reached out to YOLO on four separate occasions, and I looked at YOLOs policies and they said that they monitor for cyber bullying, and they will reveal the identities of those who do so. And so I emailed them. That's the only way you can get in touch with them and told them what happened to my son and asked them to follow their own stated policies. Because my concern was that these kids might still be doing this to others. I mean, sure. It was very effective in Carson's case. And, um, I was ignored. I had one returned email, and on two other occasions, I kept, you know, emailing them. It was a canned response that said, we're looking into your message, thank you, and have a great day. Um, and then I had, um, an advocate from a nonprofit write directly to the CEO over LinkedIn. And he said, you absolutely need to get in touch with this mom and still nothing. So when things go wrong, there is no one there for you. And, and that was really what instigated the lawsuit is that I needed a way to get this company's attention.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:16)

Right, right.

Kristin Bride: (26:17)

It doesn't get worse than this.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:55)

Yeah, so you have been successful in getting state legislation in Carson's name. Can you tell us a little bit about Carson's Law and what, what that covers?

Kristin Bride: (28:13)

Yes. I, and I love talking about Carson's Law because I know Carson would love to have a law named after him. So it makes me really happy. Um, when this first happened and I felt like I needed a game plan for advocacy. I divided my work into three different categories, local: working with the school. I've done a lot with providing them with speakers and educators. Um, and then, statewide and then federal. And so at the state level, I reached to some representatives and they were having a hard time passing an amendment to the existing cyber or bullying laws in Oregon. There was a gap in that school districts were not required to report incidents of bullying or cyberbullying to the parents of the aggressor and the victim. And, um, uh, representative Drazan had spent three years trying to get this passed.

Kristin Bride: (29:12)

So I said, you know, I would be willing to testify about Carson's experience. And I did, uh, both the House and the Senate and it passed, um, in last July and is known as Carson's Law. And that's how it went out to all the school districts. Um, so it, it puts more accountability on the school. Um, we had found out that after Carson passed that there was a student who we had, um, filed a complaint about, um, who was harassing Carson. And we learned after his death that their parents were not notified. And so, um, this was really important to us that we closed that loop so that everybody because the aggressors need help as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:06)

It speaks to the person you are that you are, uh, concerned about getting help for the aggressors. I think that's very amazing of you. And um, yeah, I find I'm appalled that this had to go through a legislative process and just doesn't fall into the lines of common decency to let parents know if their child is causing harm to another person. So, um, that being said, what would you encourage other parents to do to enact or make sure that the same type of protections are in place to make sure, I mean, you are in Oregon. And so Carson's Law exists in Oregon, but in other states, what, what can we do?

Kristin Bride: (30:55)

So every state is different, um, and a great website to look up your state and see how it compares to others is, stopbullying.gov and they have by state the different categories of, um, bullying laws. And so that's a good way to get a basic understanding of your state requirements and legislation, but also schools can have different policies. And I think that's an important conversation to have with any school that your kid is attending. Um, because it also lets them know that we really wanna be involved in this and we are holding you accountable for what happens at school.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:43)

Right.  So knowing all of this, do you have any advice that you would give to teens who are experiencing this type of like relentless anonymous harm, what they could do in their lives?

Kristin Bride: (33:17)

First of all, I really hope that they can put this in perspective that they are not alone. This is so common because of the way social media is set up that, um, people are not interacting in a way that is where they can see the harm that they're causing other people that makes them so much more callous. The survivors of this, that I've talked to, have realized that this was a period of time in their lives. It was awful. They got through it and they realized in the adult world, we don't treat each other that way. Um, and so to keep their eye on the future that, um, as adults, this is just, we, we don't spend our time putting people down anonymously, at least healthy, productive adults. Um, it, it, you know, is really sad in so many ways because one of the things that kids do is they narrow their group of friends down to smaller and smaller groups to try to determine who's anonymously bullying them.

Kristin Bride: (34:26)

And I've heard a story where one person found out that it was their best friend telling them to kill themselves. And so it's just, it's not how caring people act to each other. You know, this, this provides, it's like the wild west, you know, it's chaos, Lord the Flies. I mean, I, I don't know how else to describe it, but kids have to start realizing there is a person receiving that information and internalizing it on the other side. Right. And that, I just, I want anyone going through this to, to persevere because it will get better.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:12)

It will get better. This is a temporary situation. And I spoke earlier in the season with, um, Richard Culatta who spoke, who speaks a lot about the importance of kind of redefining this role of digital citizenship that we have and how to be a digital upstander. How to, if you see this type of stuff going down, it's okay. It's, it's scary, but it's okay to be the brave person who stands up and says, "Oh hey, that happened to me too." Or I, you, I mean, say something, a word of encouragement and I mean  it can make a huge life or death difference.

Kristin Bride: (35:59)

Right. I think of just, even if one of the students who watched this happen had reached out to their parent to call me, Carson might still be alive.

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:09)

Right. Right. And I think also it's important that we let our teens know. I think in some ways we, you and I spoke briefly about how, you know, the very small number of teens will come and report cyber harm to their parents. And sometimes they believe that they are protecting their parents from stuff that's happened. And you, the year before had gone through some health challenges, as I understand, and Carson was probably in a place of not wanting to put one more thing.

Kristin Bride: (36:49)

Right. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:51)

And I, we, we recently had something like that go down in my family where my son is very far away and he contracted COVID and he was not wanting, he didn't want it to scare me. Mm-hmm so, you know, they withhold things and I'm like, how, like, I… I'm the person that needs to know the most!!!!

Kristin Bride: (37:14)

Right,

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:15)

Right. So, so difficult. Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Kristen Bride for her healthy screen habit.

Ad Break:  Support KOSA and COPPA 2.0 - contact your reps before Nov. 8.

Hillary Wilkinson: 

Not all heroes wear capes and not all leaders stand on a podium by choice. My guest today falls into both of those categories after suffering the immeasurable tragedy of losing her 16 year old son, Carson due to online bullying. Kristin took on big tech by filing a lawsuit against Snap Inc., Yolo, and LMK.   Snap made the wise decision to ban all anonymous apps and features from their platform in March of 2022. Now I met Kristin through the Screen Time Action Network at Fairplay, where she's a member of the Cyberbullying and Online Safety national work group, where she has shared her story, which is an extremely powerful one. And I thank you for sharing it with Healthy Screen Habits today. So I feel like after all of this conversation, we could probably end this right here. But as you know, on every episode, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. And I understand that Carson's brother, Jack, who is a mechanical engineer student helped you come up with the one that you're going to share with us today.

Kristin Bride: (40:02)

Yes. Um, this does come from my son Jack and what he has done. And we actually discussed this, um, in this interview -  is he has hidden apps that he might quickly click on if he's bored; like Instagram. So he still has them, but they're not on his home screen. So he has to actually do a search to pull up Instagram, to go into it. And it's that barrier, that small barrier, it's kind of like putting the chocolates above the refrigerator where you need a stool to get to it. It's that barrier that keeps him from mindlessly, clicking on something and getting sucked in, as we know, many people do for hours. So making a little bit of a barrier on your phone for the apps that you might be drawn to. Um,  is a really good, healthy screen time habit. I was impressed. He came up with that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (41:07)

Yay. And I like that it comes from, um, you know, our kind of Gen Z-er youth sort of.  So, you know, you know, it's tried and true. And I like how it keeps intention on the forefront. It just gives like a, like you said, like that chocolate above the refrigerator, it's a little speed bump before we proceed.

Kristin Bride: (41:27)

Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (41:28)

So if our listeners would like to support you and others in their work towards ending cyber bullying and holding app developers accountable, where could they do this?

Kristin Bride: (41:40)

I recommend checking out Fairplay, which you mentioned. Um, we are advocating there for the Kids Online Safety Act, (KOSA) federal legislation that will hold social media companies accountable for their harmful and addictive products. As we talked about today, we can get rid of one. It's like whackamole and, you know, Snap did the right thing, but Instagram filled the gap. There needs to be some accountability at a federal level. So all of our kids are protected and California is making great strides and it may take us going state by state and then going federal. But it'd be really nice. If, if everybody could check out Fairplay, it's free to become a member and you can get information there on how to talk to your senators and tell them how important this issue is so that our kids can be safer online.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:39)

Great. Yes. And if they wanted to join a work group, I know they're always accepting members at the screentime action network. Yes. As well. 

So thank you, Kristin. A transcript of this episode, plus all links mentioned will be posted in this episode's show notes. And I just want to, I, I, condolences are not enough to express with something like this, but I do want to, and just give you thanks for all that you are doing. You are truly saving lives.

Kristin Bride: (43:15)

Thank you, Hillary. I appreciate it.