S5 Episode 4: Stop Fighting About Social Media // Sarah Siegand of Parents Who Fight

“Delay deeper levels of technology.”

- Sarah Siegand

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.parentswhofight.com/

Resources Mentioned:

Bark - (See Products We Endorse on the Healthy Screen Habits website)

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:04):

As half of the husband-wife super-duo who founded Parents Who Fight, my guest today teaches parents practical tips for family tech strategies through live workshops, webinars, and in-home consultations. Sarah Siegand is a parent educator, tech-consultant, and mom of two teenage boys. She's been married to her husband, Jesse for nearly 25 years and together they founded Parents Who Fight in 2015. With the continued focus this season being placed on social media. I think she is going to be perfect to ask all the questions about what type of boundaries we need to put in place for healthy screen habits and enjoyment, cuz social media's fun. So welcome to the podcast, Sarah Siegand!

Sarah Siegand (00:58):

Thank you. I'm a big fan. So it's awesome to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:01):

Thank you. Uh, so I am interested to hear a little bit about your background. Like what was the motivation behind founding parents who fight and how did you kind of get started in this digital wellness space?

Sarah Siegand (01:15):

Sure. Well, I think our story shows that just about anybody can help somebody get a little bit further because I do not place myself in like the tech expert bucket at all. Um, I'm a graphic designer by trade. So of course I know my way around a computer, but uh, really it came out of my passion to protect my own children. And so when my kids were in the first and the third grades going to a fabulous elementary school, I mean just the picture-perfect experience you could have here in Nashville. Um, they started telling us things that were a little bit troubling about things that their classmates were watching or interested in. And so that sort of perked our ears up, like, wait, what what's going on? Um, and the backdrop of our home is at that point, we're a very low, low-tech home.

Sarah Siegand (02:11):

Well, we still are low-tech in comparison to everyone else, but I think we had one computer. Um, maybe we had just gotten our first smartphones, my husband and I. So we were not early adopters of technology, but because we had so few things, we knew how to keep them, our kids out of harm's way on them. So we had like a filtered browser and I had a password to get into my computer. Um, but when my kids started telling me these things, I, I got curious about what sort of things other families were experiencing. And it sort of culminated in one specific instance where my son repeated something, he had heard a kid say on the playground. And I knew that that, uh, instance meant the child who was telling him the story had been exposed to pornography. It was very specific and I knew there's no other way, a first grader knows that. So, um, I went into mama bear mode, not just of like, "how do I protect my kid?" But really thinking about like, wow, an entire school of kids and I'm, I know these parents, they want their kids to be healthy and safe. They're not negligent.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:25):

Right. That's a shared goal of every parent.

Sarah Siegand (03:29):

Yeah. And it really just occurred to me that there are things happening on technology. It's moving so fast that we aren't, we don't know how to get in front of it. We don't know how to stop some of the doors from opening. And so just in talking with other parents, is sort of how it started, like, do you, has this happened to your kid? And it was unanimous like yes, yes, yes. And so in 2014, I had the opportunity to go to a national conference that was specifically about, um, protecting families from pornography, which I had never even heard of anything like that before.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:04):

No, we never, we didn't grow up, we didn't grow up with this type of thing. So it's new waters.

Sarah Siegand (04:09):

And it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, at that point even, um, something that people freely talked about, I think more and more so in the past seven years, we've gotten better at knowing we need to discuss it and normalize that word so that we can talk to our kids. Um, but when I came home from that conference, that was 2014 and I just started kind of grabbing all my friends' computers. And like here, let me show you this thing that I learned, you know, Google Safe Search, never heard of it. And I just started helping people close some doors. And then in the, um, winter or January, 2015, we did a simple workshop at our kids' school and invited parents to come. And we really just taught them like, here's the backdrop of what's sort of happening online. And here are, are a few things you can do to protect your kids.

Sarah Siegand (04:58):

And we were not intending to start Parents Who Fight. We were wanting to resource our elementary school, but we did get many, many invitations after that to other churches and schools and um, you know, Boy Scout groups and whatnot. And we just really started saying yes to all of them. And so our interaction with parents over the past seven years has what you know, has fueled my research and my need to understand the major pitfalls of technology. So fast forward to today, what that looks like is, um, we do live workshops. So we'll, you know, be at a church or at a family conference or something. And we'll, you know, have parents come in and sort of give them like, here's our best practice recommendations along with some tech tips, but most practically it applies to actually going into people's homes or setting up a zoom call to find out what is that family's felt need, what are their objectives? Because it's different for all of us, right? Some people don't care how much time their kids have on screens. And I'm not necessarily in their home to judge that and tell them, their kids have too much time. I'm there to give them the tools to know how much time their kids have so that they can make an informed choice on if they want to limit something with a time restriction. And then I show them how to do that.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:28):

The mission of Parents Who Fight is to help parents protect kids online. Right. And by going in and doing all this, is that how I'm just wondering, like how do you recommend parents start setting boundaries around family tech?

Sarah Siegand (06:48):

I mean, yeah. It's, if you're lucky enough to have very, very little ones, your first objective is just really modeling it well. Now we can all do that and we all should be doing that. Um, making sure that we understand how we are using technology and what strongholds are there that keep us, you know, addicted or coping with it or whatever, obviously modeling, um, is so important at every stage of parenting cause your kids are always watching you,

Hillary Wilkinson (07:17):

Right. Sponges.

Sarah Siegand (07:18):

Um, yes, but you know, beyond that, we really encourage which this is a totally free tip - costs you no money to delay deeper levels of technology. So that includes the smartphone, um, gaming systems and social media. And that looks different for every family because there are all kinds of situations. There's families who have shared custody, right? And so phones are a necessary mode of communication. So in those instances we recommend, you know, some dumb phone options or phones that are maybe hybrid and kid safe options. Um, there's families who have older teenagers and then have a bonus kid coming up. So how do they keep video games out of that kid's reach. So every family has this completely unique construct,

Hillary Wilkinson (08:12):

Exactly

Sarah Siegand (08:12):

And different goals. But I think, you know, you can start with modeling. You can start with delaying what you can. You can get technology out of your kids' bedrooms. You can have them turn it in at night.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:27):

That is our number one healthy screen habit that, I mean, I cannot tell you how many mental health professionals, how many screen health professionals that is the number one thing that we recommend is get the screens out of the bedrooms at night, protect the sleep and protect your family.

Sarah Siegand (08:47):

And when you, you know, hear of kids who are staying up until two in the morning on phones, it's like, well gosh, no wonder. Everybody's so, uh, anxious and unfocused and unmotivated, you know, I, I know for myself, I have to completely unplug from screens before I go to bed to even just sleep well. Right. And obviously, because I'm a graphic designer, I have all kinds of, I personally have all kinds of weird dreams when I've been on technology too much where I'm like running in a Photoshop menu and I can't get out of it. And that's usually like the telltale side

Hillary Wilkinson (09:27):

Sounds like Tron <laugh>. Yeah,

Sarah Siegand (09:29):

Exactly. It's like you have been on this too long, you know? Right. So it, and for us, you know, we, we don't want to prescribe to every family what their screen time limits should be. But in general, I think if you don't have a way to measure the screens that are happening in your home, as far as how long they're online and what kinds of things kids are doing on them, then you don't really have a true picture of what's going on and what needs there may be. Because if you have a bunch of kids, it's really hard to know who's using it for what amount of time.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:07):

Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And I mean, I like how you touched on, if you have a bunch of kids and also if you have, I mean, everybody at varying levels of development and varying levels of need and what gets really tricky. I know in my house is whenever coaches have required like, oh, a group texting format or a group, we're all gonna have this app and we're all. And it just, it, I completely agree with you where every family is individual. And so they, it requires thinking about your own set. In that regard, we do have a free downloadable tool on the website called the Family Tech Plan that can help parents streamline for that.

We have to take a break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Sarah what aspects of apps and social media can be particularly problematic for teens or dangerous for teens.

Ad Break–Bark

Hillary Wilkinson (12:20):

My guest is Sarah Siegand, founder of Parents Who Fight an organization whose mission is to help parents protect kids online. So Sarah let's talk social media. This is kind of the focus of this season. And I would like to ask you, what are the aspects of social media that with all of your dealings with families, you've seen so many families and so many types of families and in your own experience, what are the areas that you have found particularly problematic for let's say teens?

Sarah Siegand (13:12):

Sure. I mean, I mean, starting just with the teens thing, A. Kids don't belong on social media. So 13 is that minimum age that are, you know, it's not to actually protect the children from content. Don't be fooled parents, but there is a federal law that says, you know, social media companies, can't let you open an account if you're not 13 years of age. And so one of the things that has happened over the past five, six years, so I've, I've a senior in high school. Um, and a lot of his peers had social media when they were like 11 mm-hmm <affirmative> well at 11, um, depending on the platform they either had, um, to lie to get through the age gate and say I'm 20 or whatever. So now Instagram let's say thinks they're 25 <laugh> you know, or they, the social media company didn't even have, you know, a great age gate and they just had to check a box saying I'm 13. So what you have now for teenagers is a whole bunch of them. Who've been on social media for a very, very long time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and they have built up a lot of algorithmic strength against them. Um, and so parents are beside themselves in realizing all the stuff that is coming at their kids and for the parents are like, this stuff never comes at me. I never see, you know, pornography. I never see suicide stuff. It's like, well, yeah, because you, as a parent haven't clicked on. So like you're

Hillary Wilkinson (14:51):

You’re clicking on bathroom remodels.

Sarah Siegand (14:54):

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:55):

And, and pretty kitchen cabinets.

Sarah Siegand (14:57):

Yeah, You're not. Yeah. And so, you know, we really highly encourage parents. Like I said, with the delay piece, um, I personally don't think that, um, a middle schooler exists on the planet that is actually strong enough to go up against that algorithm and win.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:15):

I completely agree with you

Sarah Siegand (15:16):

Now, you know, some people have super responsible middle schoolers, I'll give you that, but the internet doesn't, uh, play favorites on who's responsible and who's not, and every kid can make a miscalculation about what is safe. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And one of the things that we started doing with families is, you know, maybe there's a kid who is, gosh, you know, they're getting ready to go off to college. Let's say they just graduated. So they're already 18. And it's like, my kid keeps seeing this stuff online. Um, you really have only a couple of options. So you, I mean, can you really tell your 18, 19-year-old, you can't be on social media? Not really. Right. Yeah. Um, you can help them set up some healthy time limits. You can have conversations about, “Hey, the longer you're on this, the more likely you are to run into it.”

Sarah Siegand (16:11):

Um, you can help them with some algorithmic recalculating. So here's a good test that we have developed and it works in almost everything that has like a little search bar. Um, so Instagram, um, Snapchat, TikTok is just type in, we call it the alphabet test, just type in each letter of the alphabet on its own. And you will see in the suggested things that come up a slew of things that the algorithm thinks you might be ready to type or search for. And that will help you identify mature content. Um, that'll help you identify some suicidal things or some eating disorder, things that don't have that title. Like, you know, the, the social media companies have been hammered about getting rid of search terms and hashtags and whatever that lead kids straight to problematic content,

Hillary Wilkinson (17:06):

Self-harm or cutting

Sarah Siegand (17:08):

Or

Hillary Wilkinson (17:08):

Or porn or yeah.

Sarah Siegand (17:10):

So there are certain hashtags and search terms that won't yield a result, but all a kid needs is to know the name of some TikTokker who has, you know, problematic content and their name might be, you know, I don't know, “Daisy Girl”, something like that. It doesn't necessarily as a search term pose an alarm, but once you click on it and you can see what's there, you'll see. So that's something that, you know, we've done periodically. And so in order to help recalculate a family's, you know, uh, I mean, mean, first of all, does the kid even need to be on it? Like, what is it worth? You know, at certain ages, it's just like, just get rid of Instagram for a couple of years. They might hate you for a little bit, but they'll be okay depending on the age of the kid. But if you're talking about my kid has gotten, you know, himself in over his head, he wants to get out, we want to help him use TikTok well or whatever. Then there are things you can go in and start feeding the algorithm in those alphabetic words.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:15):

Making it work for you. Yes. Yes. I think we were all, um, well you probably were a little, you know, you were earlier to this party than I was, but I have to say it was such light bulb moments that happened. I think for most of the nation, when we saw Social Dilemma, which was the Netflix film that Tristan Harris, who's the ex-Google ethicist who founded Center For Humane Technology. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, he explains specifically how the algorithms work. And we all kind of went through this shock and awe period of, "oh my gosh, we have no control". But I love this. What you're talking about, because what you're talking about is making the algorithms actually work for you. And that's the goal of any good tool. Right. Right. Which is what the goal is in teaching our kids about tech is this is a tool, right? So I, I love this. I think this is groundbreaking.

Sarah Siegand (19:12):

<laugh> Hopefully. And I think parents start small. You know, if your kid is interested in social media and they're of an age, right, to have social media, A. It's not their decision it's parenting decision. This is like, are, are you gonna drive? You know, are they ready? That's a parenting decision. If they are ready, you talk about and agree on one app. And you start with one because as a parent, you need to be ready to know how to monitor that depending on their age and what, you know, kinds of things they do, but also how to have conversations. So parents do not just give your kids the keys to the app store and say, get what you want. Right. Um, we go into a lot of homes where the parents are like, yeah, I don't think they have Snapchat. I don't, you know, they get their kids' device for the day, their devices on the counter with me - kid's at school, mom's there and low and behold, they do have all this stuff and it's hidden in a folder on their phone. And the parent didn't realize. So that's something that we would encourage parents to really look at is - Man, the influence you give away when your kid gets social media should not- You need to look at that soberly, because you can't underestimate how much influence you are giving away, cuz you're giving them the whole world. And you wanna make sure that you as a family are prepared for that, that you, as a parent are not going to freak out when your kid comes across something because they ARE going to.

Hillary Wilkinson (20:40):

Right. It's not an if it's a when.

Sarah Siegand (20:43):

Right. So is it a fit for 13 year olds? You know, I, I have a hard time with that, but I know lots of families who are already in that boat and they don't feel like they can take it away. So I'm like, all right, I'm gonna help you. Right. I am going to help you. Let's put Bark on that. You know, Instagram account, let's get that Instagram account on mom's phone too. So you can log in and see, you know, let's, let's work together to try to mitigate things. And if it comes to it yeah, you're right. Your kid may just need to not have it.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:15):

Right. Right. And it's hard because we know that when kids run into problems ie: like cyber harm online, mm-hmm <affirmative> only 12% of teens will come to parents for help. Yes. Yes. So I think having this open communication of this is to protect you. This is, you know, I, it's just, it's such a tricky thing. I totally agree with you. I love coming from the, the point of keeping it as a tool set, you know, keeping the, making the algorithms work for you. And I could not agree with you more on delay, delay, delay. Yeah. If possible. Yeah.

Sarah Siegand (21:56):

Our oldest got social media at 17 and a half and that was very purposeful on our end because we knew we could have Bark on that account until he was 18. And we needed some months of those notifications to be able to see where he was strong and where he was weak. That was very important to us. Um, but we knew that when he was younger, he really wasn't ready for it. And so we made him wait till he had a purpose for social media and it couldn't just be, I'm the only one who doesn't have it. Yeah. That's not a, that's not a purpose. Right. And, um, I'm sure he would say it was hard to wait. Um, and I'm sure he would also say it's hard having it. Both, both are hard.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:37):

Right.

Sarah Siegand (22:38):

Know? Right. And, and you're learning to, you're training them to learn how to, um, use it well as an adult if they choose to. Um, but also giving them the freedom to not use it, if it's harmful or if it's not something that they enjoy.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:56):

Right. Okay. We have to take a short break. But when we come back, I am going to ask Sarah Siegand for her healthy screen habit.

Ad Break–HSH Book Club

My guest today is Sarah Siegand, who is an active advocate for families and digital balance with her organization, parents who fight. So I follow parents who fight on Instagram. And I think about a week ago, I saw Sarah introducing this idea that will spread joy and awareness and simultaneously give parents this huge pat on the back for doing a great job. I love this idea. I think it's, what's missing from our world. I have to share it. Can you tell everyone about these? I'm calling them tokens of happiness.

Sarah Siegand (00:48):

<laugh> Oh, yes. I love it!  Um, I wanted to do something to tell parents that I see you when we're out in the public. And we see somebody doing, like reading a book with a baby in, you know, the checkout line or doing something that's completely tech free, um, you know, playing with little dolls in the doctor's waiting room or whatever. I mean, I've just seen so many of those over the years, but there were a couple of them early on that really hit me like, “Oh man, these families are doing something so hard, but they're being so intentional.” And I just loved it. So I made these little wooden nickels is actually what they are. Um, and it's a, it's a "Tech Free Parenting Win" token. So it says on one side : “You have been spotted in a tech free parenting win.”

Sarah Siegand (01:47):

And then on the other side, it says, pass this token on with our logo. So the idea is that, um, parents who come to our events will get these. And of course anybody can order them on our website, but we're trying to start a chain reaction. So one parent gets the, you know, a bunch of tokens and they're looking for other parents who are just having a, you know, having a win moment with their kid that doesn't involve screens and then they can pass the token to them. So now that parent has a token that they can pass on.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:20):

I love it cuz it's, I mean, it's the law of attraction when you're looking for the good in the world, you will find the good in the world. Yes. Plus it will give you more ideas of what to do with your kid. I, I mean, one, um, idea that I used to do with my kids at a restaurant, which 100% came from me noticing a woman next to me, was to take all of the, this was when my kids were elementary age. So they were okay with having butter knives on the table. <laugh> uh, but taking the butter knives, forming a grid and then we'd play Tic tac toe with like the equal packets and the Sweet-n-Low.

Sarah Siegand (02:58):

Oh, that's awesome. Like

Hillary Wilkinson (02:59):

You know, the two different colors. Yes. And I, so I mean, but I, I, 100% lifted that idea from another woman who I saw doing it with her kids. And I was like, oh, so that's one of those things where it's like, you're you, you're creating this opportunity for observation of noticing what's right with our world. So I, I love it. Love it, love it!

Sarah Siegand (03:23):

<laugh> Thank you. And hopefully, you know, you can't get your kids involved. So they're like, yes. Well mom, look that parent is, you know, doing playing Patty cake or whatever at the grocery store. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:33):

So I think these tokens could have been the healthy screen habit. However, <laugh>, I am committed to asking each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Yeah. And do you have one? I, I was like, oh, I've got such a limited time. I gotta pump you for everything you got here. <laugh>

Sarah Siegand (03:55):

Yes. Actually wanted to share one that my, uh, 18-year-old son came up with when he was 17. Um, and he I've, you know, kids are so curious about that tech. They know how to do things on they're like, I don't even know that I didn't even know you could do that. So he created a widget on his phone, which is just like a little screen of a selection of something you want to be highlighted, whether it's your weather or the news the day. But his widget is his screen time so that he could see everyday, how much time he had used on social media. And he came up with that because he had a time limit on social media. And he always felt, you know, gypped when it came time and it would just shut off. So he wanted to keep track and make sure he knew how much time he had left.

Sarah Siegand (04:43):

And so I was like, Hey, can you show me that? And so he showed me how to create a widget on my phone. So as parents, I think it's helpful for us to remember. We can't manage what we don't measure. And if we want our kids to take a break from their screens and not be on 'em so much, we probably should know how much screen time we have on our own phone. So create a widget. Don't ask me how to do it. My son did it, but I Googled it. And you can literally Google "Create a widget on my iPhone, create a widget on my Android." And there are step-by-step instructions to see your screen time at a moment's notice.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:18):

Perfect, perfect. So if you'd like more information about Parents Who Fight and the work that they do, please look them up @parentswhofight.com as always, I'm going to link this information in the show notes, which you can find by going to the healthy screen habits.org website and clicking on the podcast button, scroll down to find this episode where you'll also find a complete transcript of this conversation. So Sarah, you are doing amazing things out there and on behalf of all families looking for help. Thank you so much. And thank you for chatting with me today. Yes,

Sarah Siegand (05:55):

My pleasure.