Resources

For More Info:

https://susanlinn.net/



FairPlay

https://fairplayforkids.org/learn/

Shalom Schwartz - Understanding Values

https://i2insights.org/2022/05/10/schwartz-theory-of-basic-values/

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:12):

Today's guest is a psychologist and world renowned expert on creative play and the impact of tech, media, and commercial marketing on children. As the founding director of the children's advocacy group Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood, which is now called FairPlay, she fought to protect children against targeted marketing and is currently a lecturer in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. All of these things are super important, but if you've listened to me for any amount of time, you'll know that the thing I am most excited about I save for last. And that's that she is also an award winning ventriloquist! Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Susan Lynn!

Dr. Susan Linn (01:11):

Well, Hillary, I'm so happy to be talking with you.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:14):

Oh, I'm thrilled you are here, <laugh>. I, I, I'm thrilled because I have to tell you, the copy of your latest book is absolutely dog eared and filled with notes on, on my, uh, a little table that I read at in the living room, <laugh>. So I, that's what we're gonna talk about today is your book. But before we dive into the meat of the book, I'd like to spend a minute or two if we could, talking about puppets. You have this amazing three puppet exercise that can be viewed online in a TED Talk. I'm gonna post that link to this episode's show notes. And Susan, could you share the three puppet exercise?

Dr. Susan Linn (01:57):

Sure. The purpose of this exercise is to really help, um, people understand how toys can influence play, and that some toys are more conducive to creative play than others. So I start out by showing a sock puppet that is like a creature. It's not identifiable as a particular creature. And I ask people, in the audience, what is the puppet's name? What is it? And what does it say? And what happens is that we don't have any agreement on what the puppet is. Is it an animal? Is it a person? Is it male? Is it female? I mean, really there, there's just, nobody knows what it says. And, and basically that's because what it is resides in us more than it resides in the puppet itself. We bring ourselves to identifying the puppet to make meaning of the puppet. And that's really the foundation of creativity.

Dr. Susan Linn (03:11):

So I start out with that, and then I go to a puppet that is more clearly a particular animal, um, like a horse. And I do the same exercise and people agree mostly that it's a horse or a lama or some four-legged mammal creature that is like equine in some way. And, um, so already our creativity has been stifled a little bit, but there's still room for does making your own decision, what does it say? Is it male? Is it female? Is what's its name? So then I take out a puppet that is the cookie monster, and everybody goes, ooooh! Because you know, people, you know, adults today were many of them children. When Sesame Street came out, they love the Cookie Monster. But when I asked them those questions, they all say it's the cookie monster. What does it say? "Me want cookie!" And, you know, and its name Cookie Monsters. So basically what, what the puppet is and what we can do with it is being driven more by the toy, by the puppet than by our own internal experience and creativity. Right. And so that's why, you know, the saying goes the best toys as opposed to often the best selling toys, but the best toys are 90% child and only 10% toy.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:56):

With our adult brains, a lot of people will stop and think and go, oh, creativity, ah, I don't know how to draw. Or something like that. But I think it's important to recognize that, that what you're building is foundational creativity. And creativity is actually the basis for problem solving. And problem solving is something that continues all the way through adulthood. And you mention in your book that creativity in the US steadily rose until the 1990s, and then it began to decline. And can you share what, what happened?

Dr. Susan Linn (05:43):

In 1984, under Ronald Reagan, the Federal Communications Commission, deregulated children's, children's television. And it became fine to create a television program for the sole purpose of selling toys. And so within a year, the 10 best selling toys, um, were all all linked to media programs in some way, and children play less creatively with MediaLink toys. So part of it is that, um, that, that advertising to children and the creation of toys to market a particular media property that increased, you know, starting in the 1980s and escalated even more in the 1990s. And at the same time, there was this, um, huge leaps forward in communication technologies. So, you know, we went from, you know, television and then there were videos and, and then there was the digital, you know, revolution basically. And all of a sudden kids were just being bombarded, you know, all the time with media, with things to do online. And most of what young children can do on a computer actually limits instead of encourages creativity.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:41):

Right. It gives them that prescribed script. It doesn't allow them to assign their own their own reality to it.

Dr. Susan Linn (07:50):

Right. And I, I'm not saying that, that those reasons, you know, the escalation of marketing to kids and the, you know, evolution of, you know, these incredibly seductive technologies, that's not the only reason. I think that creativity declined. But I think it's an important one,

Hillary Wilkinson (08:12):

Right? It's multifactorial, but it is a, uh, a key player <laugh>. One of the things also that you talk about in your latest book Who's Raising the Kids, I'm gonna keep saying the title cause I want people to go out and get it. <laugh> you speak about the difference of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And I think many people understand this in terms of like business, but can you talk about how intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation factors into the role of play?

Dr. Susan Linn (08:54):

Intrinsic motivation has to do with, doing things because they are intrinsically satisfying to us. Um, and extrinsic motivation means that you're doing something for a, a reward or something that you're gonna get from doing that, you know, that activity or, or you know, whatever it is. And, um, and so what that means is that the process of doing something isn't satisfying in and of itself. You do it basically for a reward.  Commercial culture, the culture that we are immersing kids in is all about extrinsic motivation. It's all about, um, because the message is that the things that you buy will make you happy. You know, that, I mean, that's the fundamental message of commercial culture. That's the message that we're immersing children in as. And so the goal is acquisition, right? The goal is to, is to acquire things. And that's the primary value of commercial culture that promoted by commercial culture and values are important because values are really what motivate our behavior.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:46):

Right. Right. And kind of circling back to the intrinsic versus extrinsic, I think maybe like an example that people could really, you know, you can get your hands wrapped around is the satisfaction felt when building a sandcastle or something, you know, completing a task like that. As opposed to, like you said, the collection of, you know, an extrinsic motivator, say in digital play would be getting a loot box or collecting tokens or anything on that token type behavior.

Dr. Susan Linn (11:27):

Right. Um, one of the stories that I, I talk about in my book is my experience of snuggling with this lovely five year old who, um, who wanted me to play a Lego game with him on, on his iPad.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:46):

When we come back, we're gonna talk more about the Legos.

—-Ad Break:  HSH Website

Hillary Wilkinson (13:03):

My guest is Dr. Susan Lynn, author of the book we are discussing: Who's Raising the Kids? Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children. So before the break, we were starting to talk a little bit about play and the impact technology can have on creative grip brain space, as well as intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. Um, Susan, let's hear about your little guy that you were playing Legos with.

Dr. Susan Linn (14:11):

Okay. So we weren't playing with actual Legos, although we were about five feet from a whole collection of his Legos. We were on an iPad, and he wanted to play a, a racing game. So I looked at, um, you know, Play doh apps and Lego apps. I was prepared for the fact that this was not gonna be a creative experience. I mean, we could decorate our cars, but there was just a limited choice of what we could put on our cars and where the decorations would go. So I was, I was prepared for that. And then, you know, we did the racing and I was, you know, prepared for that as well. But then he said something that just floored me. He said, we finished a couple of races, he said, "Now we can go shopping!" And it turns out that the purpose of the game wasn't to decorate cars, or it wasn't even to win the race, it was to quote “buy things”. And so, you know, that is, you know, the fundamental message of commercialism is, you know, the purpose of life, the purpose of doing anything is to acquire enough money or in this case points in order to purchase something. And so, he was being trained to value shopping more than anything else.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:42):

Getting more into those values. Can you talk about Shalom Schwartz's work on the universal system of basic human values so people can understand why that might be problematic to be just living in that world of commercial based values?

Dr. Susan Linn (16:01):

Yeah, I mean, so, so he was, um, a psychologist and, what what he did was identify in, you know, like 32 countries or more than that, um, actually universal values. And this isn't to say that everybody has the same values. Clearly we know people have different values, but it's, it's what are recognized as values that's universal. Which, you know, suggests that it, it's, you know, part of being human are, are, you know, are these values. And then what, what he did is, is, is, um, divide some values which are intrinsic, which means that their values were that motivate behaviors that are satisfying in and of themselves. And that would be like cooperation, you know, creativity, altruism, you know, things like that. And then he identified external values, which means what I said before, you do something in order to get something else. And so those kinds of values would be materialism, materialistic values or the need for praise or the need for external validation or, you know, or whatever. And so, what research, you know, has shown, for instance, is that people who are less materialistic or whose values are less materialistic are actually happier than people whose values are more materialistic. And, and you can see how that would, would play out and why materialistic values and inculcating materialistic values, particularly in children, is so important to the promoters of commercial culture.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:30):

Absolutely.

Dr. Susan Linn (18:31):

It works really well for them because if you believe that things will make you happy, and by the way, what the research shows is that things may make us happy for a while, but it's not any kind of sustained happiness. What makes us happy are relationships or experiences. But if you believe that things will make you happy, what do you do? You buy a thing, but then after a while you're finding that the thing isn't making you happy, but you believe that things will make you happy. So what do you do? You buy another thing, a bigger thing, a better thing. And it's, you know, a cycle like that that benefits corporations, but it doesn't benefit people.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:19):

Right. But it's awfully hard to market <laugh> relationships and sunsets.

Dr. Susan Linn (19:29):

I mean, they try, I mean, because, you know, if you have this, you will, you know, have better relationships. You know, people will like you better, you'll be more popular. But yeah, they're working on doing that, those corporations.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:47):

For sure. I think this work is so critical to kind of tease apart and dive into, because as we all know, we are facing a mental health crisis of unprecedented nature during these times. And it seems as though people are kind of chasing that elusive notion of happiness. And I think I, I'm wondering where is the intersection, do you think of basic human values and technology?  Is there space for digital use in chasing these maybe more intrinsic things? 

Dr. Susan Linn (21:25):

I, I think I'm really glad that you raised this because, uh, it's really important to me that people understand I'm not anti-technology. You know, I mean, I worked in television. I, I, you know, I worked with Fred Rogers, I was on “Mr. Rogers Neighborhood”, I made videos to help, you know, kids cope with difficult issues. So it's not the technology, but we, we have to recognize that, that, that the communication technologies that we have today, the digital technologies especially, especially, are incredibly powerful. And we have to recognize that they're very, they're incredibly powerful and, and they can be incredibly powerful persuaders. So, so we have this tool, uh, with so much power, and then we have a business model, big techs business model that is just inherently corrupt. I mean, the, the, the goal of these, you know, huge tech companies and the companies that advertise with them is, is to make money.

Dr. Susan Linn (22:42):

That is the primary goal and they do that by, by engaging in this war for our attention. And they want our attention because the more that we stay with these devices, the more advertising we will experience and the more, um, money, the corporations make. And so they, the companies engage in techniques that are designed to keep us hooked on these devices. And, they're extremely powerful techniques. And the companies are extremely successful. I mean, we all, spend too much time with our devices. Right. And, you know, I don't exclude myself from that either.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:37):

I stand right in line with you about not being anti-tech, but more pro- intentional use of tech. And in your book, you, (I'm going to inject my bias here) charitably, <laugh> use, use the phrase “amoral" to describe the creators of our devices that we're talking about here. And you state that harming people is not the goal of their business plan. But that being said, you also point out <laugh>, that tech companies are quick to infer that the protection of children should be placed squarely on the shoulders of parents, not companies. So this, as you and I know, and anybody who's trying to parent at any age right now, is a claim and an action that is nearly impossible to uphold if you are allowing the use of any technology within your home. So, knowing that you have had your feet in this game for a long time, what do you think needs to happen? How do families have a fighting chance here?

Dr. Susan Linn (24:57):

They need help. I mean, they need help from healthcare providers, from teachers and from the government. I mean, these companies, um, they're basically unregulated. And, and that means that they can do pretty much anything they want. And one of the things that I find, um, just so troubling is that we're at a time in the United States where books are being banned, teachers and librarians are being censored, but kids can go to, um, Alexa mm-hmm. <affirmative> or to, you know, Google search and ask anything. And the answers that they get are not necessarily accurate information, and in fact can be, um, very destructive, um, disinformation.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:55):

And incredibly biased. Right?

Dr. Susan Linn (25:57):

And incredibly biased. I mean, the way that responses are ranked, um, you know, might have to do with popularity, but also could have to do with how much money companies are spending to get their whatever - their websites or their products, whatever way high up, um, in a search engine. So, um, that I, that is extremely troubling to me.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:25):

Right. And so we have been very vocal on the podcast about supporting the Kids Online Safety Act, as well as COPPA 2.0. Is there, and contacting legislators, trying to, you know, urge legislators to support these bills. This is a bipartisan issue. Is there, are there any other means that you can recommend that people enact or get involved with?

Dr. Susan Linn (26:54):

Well, well, I think it's, it's very important, especially now to contact your senators, um, you know, to, to have them vote for, um, KOSA and, and COPPA 2.0 So mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I think that that's really important. But there are things, you know, that schools can do. I mean, some schools actually are, um, are saying that kids can't bring their phones into class. I mean, I think I, I mean, I think that that's, you know, really important that, that we, you know, carve out times that are tech free, especially times where the distraction of the technology is interfering with whatever experience is happening as, as the tech industry says IRL or in real life.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:50):

Right? And I think that, distraction is a more comfortable place to be than struggling with hard thoughts. You know? And learning is hard. I mean, it, acquiring a new skill set, or learning a new, a new way of thinking about things is hard. And it takes effort. As humans, we will invariably sway to the, you know, what they call the law of the least <laugh>. It's the, the easiest way possible. So it is not surprising at all that kids are turning to distraction in classrooms rather than struggling with that hard learning.

Dr. Susan Linn (28:39):

Right, but I think it's also important to, um, to understand that, that that struggle or that effort can be incredibly satisfying.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:55):

For sure.

Dr. Susan Linn (28:55):

And, and one of, you know, one of the ways that, um, technology is, is hooking kids is this explosion of ed tech products mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and which promotes, um, gamification with, you know, turning everything into a game. And the idea that everything has to be fun, and, and, you know, first of all, life's not like that. Everything isn't fun. And it's when something isn't fun, it's important to be able to hang in and, you know, if, if it, it's crucial, for instance, to your survival to, you know, hang in with it and, and complete whatever it is. But I think that, the way that a lot of ed tech products are sold is, you know, making, we need to make learning fun. We need to make learning fun. But what that dismisses is that, that learning is satisfying.

Dr. Susan Linn (29:56):

And also that we are intrinsically motivated to learn. I mean, if, and, and if you doubt that all you have to do is look at a baby, right? Who is trying to talk or, or trying to walk or stand up or, you know, interested in exploring whatever is in front of them. So, um, I, I think the apps and games that are being marketed in schools as, you know, learning devices or substitutes for teacher, student, you know, interactions, are extremely problematic. And one, and that's another thing that people can do. I mean, in the book I talk about, um, um, a school district that actually developed standards for what kinds of technologies could be used in the classes and what kinds of apps and, and the apps that they saw that were actually detrimental to learning. So, um, you know, if you're on a school board, that's something that you can do. Another thing is states that, you know, say that there can be no screens in daycare centers for kids under two.

Dr. Susan Linn (31:25):

There are laws that can be passed at a state level, you know, as well as the national level.

Dr. Susan Linn (31:31):

And by the way, I, I do just wanna say is that there's absolutely no evidence that any kind of screen time except possibly interacting with, you know, video chats with adults who love them, that, that there's no screen experience that is beneficial to babies.

Hillary Wilkinson (31:52):

I, yes, <laugh>. Thank you. Thank you, <laugh>. Okay. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Susan Lynn for her healthy screen habit. 

Hillary Wilkinson (32:18):

My guest today is Dr. Susan Lynn, an advocate for all children who, as she discussed earlier, had the opportunity to work with Fred Rogers. I couldn't have a conversation with you without asking like, what do you remember about your time spent with Mr. Rogers?

Dr. Susan Linn (32:45):

Um, what I remember about him is that basically what you saw is what you got. You know, he was human, you know, I mean, he had feelings and, you know, like everybody does positive feelings, negative , you know, he, he was a, a human being. But, um, once, when, when I was on his show, um, he, he gave me a topic that I could talk about with my puppets, and I did it spontaneously, and they filmed it and I finished it. And he said, you know, "Susan, that was brilliant. And do you know why? Because you let you come out."

Hillary Wilkinson (33:30):

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Susan Linn (33:31):

And so, I, I, I feel incredibly fortunate, you know, that he was somebody, in the world of children's media who really did put children first.

Hillary Wilkinson (33:44):

Yes, yes. Well, as do you, so <laugh> I'd like to tap into that expertise because on every episode I ask for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that can be put into practice nearly immediately. Do you have a healthy screen habit you could share with us?

Dr. Susan Linn (34:11):

Yes. Um, carve out screen free time for your family. It could be a family meal, it could be an evening where all of you put your devices away and make that time sacred. Do it, you know, do it regularly. Um, all of you will benefit from that.

Hillary Wilkinson (34:34):

I so agree. And to reference another book, Tiffany Shlain wrote 24/6, which was The Art of Unplugging One Day a Week. And she does a beautiful job of explaining a number of ways that that can happen as well. So I, I couldn't agree with you more. It's one of our healthiest habits actually, that we recommend <laugh>, so,

Dr. Susan Linn (34:53):

Oh, Great!

Hillary Wilkinson (34:53):

Yes. If you'd like to purchase the book, Who's Raising the Kids: Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children, you can find it on our Healthy Screen Habits, Amazon Marketplace, or a local bookstore. We always encourage you to support your local independent brick and mortar book sellers, <laugh>. However, if you need the convenience of online shopping, go to healthyscreenhabits.org, click on tools, then resources, and scroll all the way down to find the marketplace storefront where you can find the book. Susan, if people wanna find out more about you and your work, where could they find you?

Dr. Susan Linn (35:32):

My website is just, um, susanlynn.net.

Hillary Wilkinson (35:38):

Excellent. And as always, a complete transcript of this conversation can be found in this episode's show notes, which you can find by again, going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click on the podcast button at the top of the page and scroll down to find this episode. I will have links to all of the things mentioned there. So Susan, I found your book to be one. I could not put down, honestly. I mean, it sounds silly for like a nonfiction text to be that way that's not a story about something. It's more of a thought journey. And honestly, talking to you has been the same. I wish this could go on and on. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Susan Linn (36:16):

It was such a pleasure to talk to you, Hillary.