"Social relationships are changing… It can be really weird to navigate, especially at an age where you're trying to figure out how to deal with the world in all areas of your life."

- Johanna Renoth

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

For more info:

Log off Live more: website

Freedom App: link

HSH Podcast with Richard Culatta: link

Hillary Wilkinson

Johanna Renoth is the founder of Log Off Live More. Her work is about helping people navigate the digital world in a healthy, empowered way. She does this by teaching and sharing resources about digital wellbeing and helping entrepreneurs market themselves without relying on social media. So I think that kind of, as teens and kids are sort of developing their digital skills, this concept of branding and self-branding sort of comes to the forefront. And Johanna, I'm really interested, you help entrepreneurs market themselves without relying on social media. Mm-hmm. Do you think there's kind of an overlap or these same sort of skills can be taught to our teens?

Johanna Renoth: (01:07)

I think to a certain extent. and there are some things that are transferable to kids, I think, and teens, I think primarily what I see also in my research, um, I did a PhD on Instagram and, and the consequences of tech for society and culture and, and just a bigger picture is that personal branding is sort of twofold. It can be a great tool to really claim your place in the world to show what you're about, to really, um, I think create economic opportunities for yourself also, if you know how to do that well. And at the same time, the way we've been using it and the way we've been, we've been used to doing that on social media, is really by exposing a lot, right?

Johanna Renoth: (02:05)

Trying to get attention. We're in the midst of the attention economy and whoever has the ability to, in any way garner attention online, that's really in the way it's a skill to have, even though, you know, it's a, it's a bit of a treacherous thing to navigate. And at the same time, the question is also, well, at what cost does that attention come? And I think especially as younger teenagers and older teenagers are starting to navigate that world, they'll probably see a lot of creators on TikTok, um, building a personal brand and leveraging that into, into companies into income, which can be a good opportunity. But then also the question is, how do you, I think, protect kids and, and educate them around letting them know that not all of that is something they need to do, right? You don't need to share everything in your personal life just to build your brand and to really be, be savvy as much as a young person can. You know, I think it's also a matter of experience and maybe playing with that a little bit and figuring it out for yourself, but really to give them the savvy and the awareness from the get-go that there is, they don't have to do everything they see online. And there are different ways to build a brand if that's what they're into, or if maybe they feel peer pressure or peer incentives around that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:31)

Right. Right. And I can see how it's this kind of, um, perfect intersection of teens at their developmental stage of wanting to, enforce peer relations. And, you know, it's the cool factor. And I can see also where it being the attention economy, like you've said, the, the posts that garner the most, interaction are the ones that are the mo most outrageous typically, which can go completely off the rails. We wanna support our kids in their exploration of social media, as you would say. But how do you suggest we reign in that impulse to create content that they're not gonna have to go and clear off their feeds?

Johanna Renoth: (04:39)

Laughter,

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:42)

I, I just, I've, I've noticed this very interesting trend where as the parent of teenagers, as soon as they, you know, become maybe entrepreneurial or start applying to colleges, their feeds get an immediate wipe mm-hmm. , and I don't know whether kids are being coached to do that or whether it's something that they feel they want to, but I'm just wondering, how do you suggest we start kind of, I don't know, putting up the rails to, to help them not have to do that, that enormous wipe?

Johanna Renoth: (05:21)

Yeah. I think first and foremost, I mean, I, I wanna be transparent here. I don't have teenagers, right? So everything I say also needs to stand the, the, the test of reality. But what, what I can suggest, and also what I've seen in conversations with young people is really, so I think the worst thing you can do is really talk down on them and pretend they don't know because they're so much more savvy. Um, but just having an honest conversation with them about this, that this is something that's going on and, and we're seeing a lot of people do that really this idea of personal branding has become so ingrained in our culture now in how people show up, for example, on LinkedIn, right? Every, not, it's not just influences, it's a lot of people I think, feel that they have to, in some shape, way, or form project, uh, a type of personal brand online.

Johanna Renoth: (06:16)

So I think it's good and helpful to make them aware that right now we don't have anything online that's like the right to be forgotten. So whatever you put out can be in one way or another, you can find it, right? Uh, I mean, you have to have some, some level of savvy and you need to know what you're doing. But still, a lot of what we put out lives online forever. And until maybe the loss change or our sensibilities change that we need boundaries around that. So what I think you can tell teenagers to, to consider if they would want that thing to live online for the rest of maybe their lives or something. I mean, that's a bit dramatic, but just to give them the, the sensibility around that, even though it does feel very playful and that it doesn't matter, it, it, at the end of the day, it really does because it connects to their name, it connects to maybe future opportunities.

Johanna Renoth: (07:14)

And of course, one weird post is not gonna be the end of the world. But I can also see that that could be a source of anxiety really, of, of trying to figure out, well, what can I do? What can I not do? What is gonna generate backlash? How are people gonna see me? And, and to let them know that there still is room for experimentation, but to also help them and, and make them aware that experimentation means, I guess, coloring within certain lines that you help them set for themselves. And if, you know, if you once or twice maybe miss the mark a little bit, that can be fixed, but that you should be, that it really helps, helps to be cognizant that even though a lot of social media feels very playful, it can have real world consequences. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:02)

Yeah. I don't know. So Johanna, you're in Germany? Mm-hmm. , and I don't, I'm not super familiar with the, um, German education system, but in the US growing up, I'm a Gen Xer, but growing up there was always this overwhelming threat of “this will go down on your permanent record” Okay. In school. And that always felt hugely daunting, you know, as a, as a kid. And I kind of, as you were talking, I was like, I've never before thought about like, you know, we always talk about, it's almost like too big for kids to understand when we say like, oh, it lives on forever. It's like, it's almost too big. But if it's, I, I was just thinking about that parallel of like explaining that this goes on your permanent record . So I dunno, I'm just maybe, okay.

Johanna Renoth: (08:56)

Maybe it also helps to, to just, sometimes I think for all this digital and, and internet stuff, quote unquote real world analogies can be really helpful. So you could also frame it around, well, what would you be comfortable putting up on a billboard? Something really personal or a fight you're having with your friend who wouldn't want that up on a billboard for the entire town to see. I mean, I'm thinking about Los Angeles and the interstates and the big billboards you have. Yeah. And with social media, from a technological point of view, the possibility is there. It doesn't mean that everybody is gonna see what you put up online, but if you have a public profile, the possibility is there. And it really could be like, you know, all these cars going past this billboard on the interstate. Um, so it can help them sort of have that frame of mind. What would I be comfortable for people to see about my life up on a billboard like that? And if you feel uncertain, then maybe give it a day or two and see, and see if you wanna do that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:09)

Yeah. Yeah. And, and also, I'm, I'm reflecting on a previous conversation I had with, um, Richard Culatta, and he, uh, brought up the, the point that we spent so much time telling kids what not to do online. We really, you know, we need to flip that script a little bit. And so maybe talk about some things about like, oh, you know, would you like to share this? Would you like to, when when you do have the opportunity for a moment of, you know, something that would, would be a great post. You know, like maybe a, you know, photograph of the pier at, at sunset mm-hmm. I'm just thinking like, how do we install training wheels? 

Johanna Renoth: (11:00)

I, I love that idea because I think so much of our conversations right now around technology, social media, we've, I think in the past years we've, especially with the pandemic and everything that came afterwards when our live moved online so much, we've really become aware of the challenges. And it's important to talk about that. But I love what you just su suggested because it's really, it's not just about talking about what's not working, but really retraining ourselves to be intentional with it. And I think if you can instill in your kids and teenagers this idea of, okay, well you wanna share something with the world, let's figure out within maybe this framework or whatever boundaries you can, you can collaboratively figure out and, and show them, okay, well we're in this situation now. Or what do you wanna share now? 

Johanna Renoth: (11:59)

That also still helps you sort of protect your privacy or, you know, protect you from maybe, let's say, challenges down the road. Right? In terms of what you were saying, it's going on your permanent record. Cuz cuz fear, I think it's, it's important to have an, a serious conversation about this. And at the same time, just going about this with fear as a driver is not a good idea cuz it doesn't empower anyone, you know, adults as well in how to use this. It's more about finding what works for you and then keeping with that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:34)

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So, um, you have written a very interesting PhD . Can you share the topic and maybe like, how do you like this? Can you take years of what you've been studying and distill it into, I dunno, we got like two minutes before commercial breakout. Exactly. . Wonderful. What's that for? Annoying ? No,

Johanna Renoth: (13:01)

It's great. I like it. So I, I'm a political scientist. I specialize in theory of democracy, which I think is so interesting right now. And I wanted to know what is political about Instagram, because for a long time, especially researchers and I think culture looked at Instagram as something like, oh, you know, it's frivolous. People are posting photos of their food and their dogs and their outfits. And I thought, well actually if millions, hundreds of millions of people are doing that, something is going on that, that has effects on how we interact with each other and how we deal with each other in, in politics as well. And what I've found is that with social media, I mean not just Instagram, but with social media and technology in this, in in general, the, the images are interesting because they tell us something about the culture that we live in.

Johanna Renoth: (13:53)

For example, this whole impetus around personal branding and that a lot of people feel now they have to have a personal brand to matter. But at the same time, when you look at the bigger picture and the economic motives that are behind how these platforms work and how the platforms work is really the, the key, I would say the key challenge for democracy. Because these platforms don't work in ways that you could consider democratic. And they have, at the same time, they control the communication streams of billions of people in the case of meta. And that in a nutshell is where challenges really are created for democracy. And it's not just about misinformation, it's really even further upstream where all I would say the conditions of how we interact on these platforms are fundamentally flawed because we think, and I think this is also important for kids, we think that we are on there to share about our lives, right? To make funny content, to be popular, to be seen, to have all these cool things that can come with social media. But really the underbelly of that is it's a business and they want our data. They want us to see ads. And these two things are very much at odds with each other, especially when we need to be able to communicate with each other freely and well in a democracy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:19)

Awesome. Yeah. So we have to take a quick break, like I said, but when we come back, I wanna talk a little bit more about that, getting into what, what you previously referred to as attention economy, which I think is a really important concept and I'm hoping you can, uh, tell us more about your research.

—-Ad Break —--Aro

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:40)

My guest today is Johanna Renoth, the founder of Log Off Live More, an organization designed to help people create a healthy relationship with tech in their lives. Before the break, we were talking a little bit about your PhD and your research and the kind of intersection of the political climate and uh, social media and it's all very, very heady stuff, very interesting stuff. , uh, was there anything that surprised you when you did this deep dive into Instagram specifically, I believe is what you were, what you were following?

Johanna Renoth: (16:53)

It was on Instagram specifically to learn how technology and democracy interact with each other. Um, there were I think two things. So first was, um, and I, my PhD was a long-term project and it sort of wove into my personal, um, trajectory in my career. And the first thing I was very surprised by was how this entire field of venture capital works and how, how investors think, how startup founders think. And I had a startup of my own a couple of years ago and was a fellow in venture capital. So I got trained on how to invest in startups by startup investors, which was hugely interesting. And it's a mindset that's very far away from what I'm used to sort of academically and also in small business entrepreneurship. And I was surprised for example, that sort of the common sense idea that a business needs to make money to grow just does not apply for venture capital.

Johanna Renoth: (17:55)

Because as long as you're adding users and you can fuel the growth process of a company with money that venture capitals give you in exchange for shares of a company, that's kind of considered fine as long as you can figure out down the line how to make money. Which is how we got into this toss up with a lot of the social media companies in the first place because they were growing and growing and growing and consuming lots of money. And at some point an investor wants to see their money back. So even after they were publicly traded, it, it's still the same logic. At some point people wanna see money. And I, I think me 10 years prior, just as a very naive Instagram user, right, I would've never clocked that, that that's a thing that my, my activities on the platform or on the app were basically underwritten by just huge amounts of money being pumped into that with, in the beginning no financial return basically. I thought that was interesting cuz the common sense idea of sort of doing business is really different from that, right? .

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:04)

Oh yeah. It's a whole new, uh, dimension, right? Yeah. In the business world, that's really, I feel like we could go off hardcore there, but I'm gonna have to swing it around to healthy screen habits!  I'm like, cause that sounds really interesting, but I need to kinda . Yeah. And I

Johanna Renoth: (19:31)

Think, I think the other thing is I mentioned two things and also to bring this back to what you were talking about parenting and, and personal branding, I think up until I really dove deep in this research, and especially I've, I've finished writing the PhD in a very intense two month, just sitting down every day on the all day, seven days a week to, to finish the writing process. And the depth I had around understanding what's really going on was very cool. Especially, I don't think I was aware that personal branding, for example, is so deeply ingrained in our culture now in, in the states maybe a little bit more so. But also it's becoming more so in Europe where if you're looking for a job, you know, the employer also depending on where you work, wants to see, well, what's your personal brand as an employee?

Johanna Renoth: (20:21)

And to me that was a, a very surprising, um, I would say development because I hadn't, I had always thought, because I'd been in entrepreneurship for quite a while, that that was something that's more contained to my field because you kind of need it a little bit. But then the more I learned about it, the more I saw that it actually applies to quote unquote ordinary people or young people or, you know, people trying to get into college or certain fraternities and sororities or certain clubs and all these things as well. And I hadn't, um, I'm glad you brought that up at the beginning of our interview because I think it's one of the bigger changes in our society through or in our societies, through social media.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:59)

And it also validates our teenagers' concern about their online presence. I'm not trying to sway anyone in their decisions of how you navigate social media within your own family, but I just, you know, when you're, when you're talking about it coming from a personal branding lens, it becomes different where it's like, huh, okay. So

Johanna Renoth: (21:34)

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, to be honest, I also feel, I really feel for young people because you, it's so challenging to distinguish between, well, and even as an adult, I feel that, am I talking to a person? Am I talking to a brand? What's going on here? Sometimes the roles are a bit mixed. You see, you follow an influencer, you think, and it could be a, you know, somebody with 50,000 followers. It doesn't have to be someone with millions and you are really engaging with what they're putting out, and you think that's really cool and you want to be in touch with them. But it kind of, it, the, the social relationships are changing and it's, it can be really weird to navigate, especially I think at an age where you're trying to figure out how to deal with the world in all areas of your life. Right, 

Johanna Renoth: (22:19)

And also, I especially feel for, for teenagers and people, very young people who are starting to navigate the world of work, because I feel like a little bit of the, the innocence of being young and figuring it all out is, is undermined by this pressure I think that some people might very well feel and justifiably so to build a personal brand because I think they still get to be people first. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:48)

Right, right. So in keeping with that, uh, being a person first, your organization is designed to help people create this healthy relationship, which includes the balance and intentionality you talked about with tech in their lives. Mm-hmm. , it's got three elements. Can you kind of briefly go over them?

Johanna Renoth: (23:12)

Yeah. So there are three parts. I think the one that's really underrated and very important is privacy and protecting your data. I think we need to talk about that way, way more, especially when we talk about young people. Um, then I really care about, um, this whole productivity aspect. How do you deal with technology in a way so you can actually do the things you wanna do in your professional life. And then the other one is just how to live a good life, right? With technology, not despite of it. Um, and I think the, the latter part is really about, you know, often you see so many people when they're hanging out amongst each other on their phone scrolling, and it's easy to judge . And I sometimes do..

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:57)

That's very honest of you,

Johanna Renoth: (23:59)

I have to be honest. Sometimes in my mind I go, I can't believe it. Um, but it's really about being aware of which functions you want out of your phone and to be intentional about, you know, I'm hanging out with my friends now I'm hanging out with my family, I'm doing things that are meaningful. Do I really need my phone right now and do I need to pull it out? And sometimes I'm aware that I sound a little bit like a killjoy because I'm telling people to leave their phones behind a lot more. But it's really about being more intentional about does this serve me right now and how I want to be in life and does it not? And especially this, the work aspect, and it can be studying as well, it can be being in college of, of constant distractions and interruptions.

Johanna Renoth: (24:46)

And what that does with our attention and what it does with our ability to learn, um, with our ability to create and self actualize is, I think we're just starting to see the tip of the iceberg of that because it took a couple of years, I think for these… by now we're really habituated in our use of smartphones and social media, of digital tools, and we've practiced using them in a certain way. So it's become very natural for us, to have that impulse to check our phones, to check our emails, to do certain things because we're just, it's just a habit now. Um, but the habit very often doesn't help us in doing the things we need to do. And it has to do with especially dopamine. Um, I don't know if you're, if if we've, if you've talked about dopamine on the podcast.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:35)

Yes, for sure. Yeah. So anybody who just needs a quick, like a little quick primer would be dopamine's a neurotransmitter within the brain that has to deal with pleasure pathways and particularly the anticipatory set and reward. Yes. That would be how I would, if you've got a better definition, please, please!

Johanna Renoth: (25:59)

No, no real. That was really great. And I think what, especially with dopamine, and I think this also is very important for, for young people who are growing up in the digital world, it's very hard. It, no, it's not, it's doable, but very uncomfortable to unlearn this as adult as I've come to experience. And I also see it in other people around me. When you get dopamine, for example, from sources where it's very easy to get, so for example, you might go on social media, you see a post that you like and your brain says, yay, and you get dopamine . And so because dopamine is associated with motivation, it makes us log onto these apps more because it's a very easy source to get that intensely positive feeling in our minds. Dopamine can also be associated with addiction, for example. Um, so what happens when you are a young person or you're an adult and you have to do something that's a little bit uncomfortable or outside of your comfort zone, or you're just not feeling like it, which could be studying, it could be writing a report, it could be 

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:04)

Doing the laundry for me regularly!

Johanna Renoth: (27:07)

Yeah. Doing the laundry. Or when the more dopamine we get from sources where it's very easy to have like social media, the harder it is to do these other things that are already not that fun to do because there's this huge mismatch of easy dopamine from something that has no effort to very little dopamine from something that's uncomfy to do. And the, the more you do that, the more you'll find resistance to doing the things you already don't want to do. So you're sort of increasing the hurdles every time you do that. And managing your dopamine and understanding how it works is when you can help your kids understand that in a, you know, whatever is an appropriate way to explain it to them, that a lot of that is really a biological experience and that you need to learn how to, or that learning how to moderate that biologic experience is a huge skill that you, if you have that and if you understand that will set them up for so much more success is I think, key because I, to be very honest, I had to, when I was young up until I went to university, I had really good focus. And then that was around the time that Facebook got really big mm-hmm. and I could tell, I could tell it's been, for me, it was about a decade of not really understanding what was going on, but noticing that, oh, I used to love studying, um, and learning and then it got,

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:41)

And reading, yeah. Reading books versus just magazines and scrolling and doing the quick hits. Mm-hmm.

Johanna Renoth: (28:47)

Yeah. And then I noticed, well I used to really love this and now it's gotten harder and I, I didn't really quite understand why cuz it was so foreign to me. And I think these past years, especially since the start of the pandemic, I've really been intentional about rolling that back. And it takes a while. You can reset your, your dopamine and you can be intentional with it and you will notice the difference. But wouldn't it be nice if today's kids don't have to go through that? I mean, I, I hope for them that they can learn, they can learn from our lessons basically.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:22)

I think that is amazing advice and I too struggle so I think it's, but I, I agree with you when we can come, you know, kind of saying, “Hey, this is really hard and I, I have these problems. Do you feel that too?” Yeah. I mean I feel like with this, this whole concept of we're all sort of learning this together is, it feels very wild westy, but in a way it's beautiful and it can be a connecting point as well. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So when we come back, I can't wait to hear Johanna's Healthy Screen Habit 

—----Ad Break - Jeanine Mouchawar MasterClass

Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today is Johanna Renoth, the founder of Log Off Live More and a certified systemic coach, which I think is a fascinating term. I'm not familiar with it. What is that? 

Johanna Renoth: (30:46)

It's, uh, a way of looking at coaching that sees people sort of integrated into the bigger systems around them. So a system could be family, it could be work, it could be university or school. And it looks at the individual sort of in the context of that, um, as a foundation because we, you know, we, we are people and we have our own inner stuff going on, but then we also interact with others. We're embedded in bigger context and that just sees it, it creates that type of connection. But, you know, the way I was trained  still has a lot of regular coaching tools as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:23)

So it sounds almost like relational coaching, uh, as far as like where you are in relationship to

Johanna Renoth: (31:33)

Others or to certain, to a certain extent. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:36)

Okay. Well, very interesting. , I'm sure I could benefit from some systems analysis my own self . Ok, Johanna, on each episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that we can put into practice in our own homes. Do you have a healthy screen habit you can share with us?

Johanna Renoth: (32:02)

Yeah. Um, I actually, it's so great that you just brought up the whole systemic thing because I think what really helps is to have to build systems around yourself and to have very clear boundaries. What I've noticed, um, for myself and then also for people I work with and who I help, is that the more you have to rely on willpower alone, the harder it is because at some point throughout the day, you're just not gonna feel it, and you're gonna do the thing you don't wanna do, and then you're gonna be mad at yourself that you did it. And sometimes that happens, right? It's life. But it helps to set yourself up in a way where what you're doing is really clear and how that works around you is really clear. So for example, I have designated screen-free zones in my home, and that means I don't bring the phone into the bedroom and I don't bring it to the toilet, right?

Johanna Renoth: (32:55)

It just, it does not go there. And in the beginning it takes, again, a little bit of time to ingrain the habit, but at some point it's just gonna feel, it feels weird to me now to have my phone in hand and think about and, and be in the bedroom. I'm like, this doesn't belong here. . Like, what does this do here? It's like a foreign object. And it really helps to have very clear boundaries like that because once you start to negotiate with yourself, like, oh, just this one time you, you make the process a lot harder for yourself because then again, you have to rely on willpower, um, willpower for some people it depletes, um, throughout the day. So, you know, you set yourself up for success in a much better way when you're as clear as you can around yourself. And then the other thing is, um, especially if you’re a curious person who loves to read online, and that is something that gets in your way, um, I also always highly recommend a blocking tool like Freedom.

Johanna Renoth: (33:57)

Maybe people have been on the podcast have suggested this before. No? Um, mm-hmm. Freedom is really cool because you can block certain websites on it. Um, certain URLs across the website. It's an app, and it's also a tool that you can use on your computer or on your browser. And so you could designate that between, I don't know, 9:00 AM and 9:00 PM you can't access Facebook at all. And there's really, you can set a soft block where you can go around it or you can set like a, a mega block where you would need to de-install the app and do a bunch of things to access, oh my goodness, access Facebook. So again, the hurdle is kind of too big, almost right to do it. And, and at least it works and it works for most people, I think.

Johanna Renoth: (34:42)

So with Freedom, you can just block certain sites during certain hours of the day and it tremendously helps with focus, with productivity because you could enter facebook.com for example, in your browser, and it just shows you a blank screen, green screen with a butterfly on it that says, you're free , do what you need to do. Love it. So you don't, you don't even see the interface, which really helps. And um, I found, you know, again, speaking from my experience that especially when you're on the hunt for dopamine and you really want your dopamine hit because you're doing something you don't wanna do. Right now, having a tool like Freedom is extremely helpful because the option doesn't exist. It's kind of like not having cookies at the house, right? You don't have cookies at the house, you can't eat them, you can't go to Facebook, you can't go to Twitter, you can't go to whatever your favorite site for dopamine or procrastination is. Well, you could go there, but nothing happens. And I find that's another one of

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:44)

These, it's like going to the bakery, but it's closed .

Johanna Renoth: (35:47)

Exactly. Exactly. And that's another example of having systems around you in really clear boundaries because even if you find yourself acting against your own best interests, there's nothing you can do. Right? The bakery is closed, so, you know, whatever . Yeah. And you can move on with your day. Yeah, it also helps, um, I find to leave a little time window every day where you can, where you have an half an hour or something to goof off. And if you goof off and do certain things during that half hour, well fine. But then it doesn't, it doesn't spread into the rest of your day.

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:55)

As always links to, and a complete transcript of this conversation could be found in today's episode. Show notes. You can get there by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click on the podcast button at the top of this page and scroll down to find this episode. Johanna, thank you so much for being here. I feel like I'm definitely gonna get some better systems in place around our own house. 

Johanna Renoth: (37:22)

Thanks so much for having me. It was wonderful to be able to share all this with you.