Getting your first phone as a kid,(we view)  as a rite of passage. …. but it's not orderly (and) …many times it's traumatic for families.

~ Javier Aguera

When you install an app on your phone -  you know the “permissions” setting?  The one that says you don’t want this app to track your movements across all platforms?  Meet the guy who brought that to you: Javier Aguera. He's currently working on something new, a method and set of highly practical tools that will create a journey toward a child's ownership of their first smartphone. It is is rooted in giving kids agency and trust paired with skill and habit built in.  It’s fascinating - and so is he….you want to hear everything this guy has to say! Listen now!

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Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:00):

Our Healthy Screen Habit Hero this week is a Spanish inventor and entrepreneur. At age 15, he co-founded Geek's phone, which in 2009 was the first European Android smartphone to the market. His second venture, Blackphone pioneered privacy centric smartphone design, and was recognized as Invention of the Year 2014 by Time Magazine. He's currently working on something new, a method and set of highly practical tools that will create a journey toward a child's ownership of their first smartphone. This is rooted in giving kids agency and trust paired with skill and habit built in. In the superhero world. I kind of picture him like a, a little, a little Tony Stark adjacent, a little Ironman, kind of a very smart guy with really cool things. <laugh>, welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Javier Aguera.

Javier Aguera (01:09):

Hi. And thank you very much for having me here.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:13):

So, Javier, your position as a millennial, had you growing up kind of in parallel with the digital age that we now live in, and can, I'm just, I, I always love a kid's story. Like what, so what kind of kid were you, what sort of things did you like to do growing up?

Javier Aguera (01:33):

Wow. I was certainly, uh, a weird creative kid. Um, I was a figure skater, uh, when I was, when I was little. And actually that's not a path I took. Um, also not Tony Starks, hopefully a bit less narcissistic than <laugh> than that, but, uh, but when I stopped figure skating, that creativity went into many places. So I got into music, uh, filmmaking, design, and, you know, randomly <laugh>, as you said, into, uh, building smartphones, which is a weird hobby. <laugh> for a teenager. <laugh>.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:04):

Well, it was, it was a lucrative hobby, so it worked out all right! <laugh>

Javier Aguera (02:08):

<laugh>. It did.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:09):

At this point, you've kind of reigned in all of these, uh, creative adventures, if you will. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And what, what brought you to this sort of digital wellness pond?

Javier Aguera (02:22):

Um, adventures is a lot that I, I, I love, and, and I definitely describe my, my journey as, as that, um, you know, um, so for many reasons that maybe we, we don't have time here to, to, to dive deep into, uh, I found myself, uh, as a teenager, um, as a millennial teenager, uh, getting immersed into this whole phone era. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, like my generation was the first one that as teenagers got access to some of these things, you know, the early versions of Facebook, uh, the early smartphones, um, typing on a screen was something, you know, new back then. And, um, because I, you know, for, you know, <laugh>, it's a long story, but got myself into building a company. We built the first European smartphones, uh, out there, uh, with Android. Uh, I saw up close how this device transformed not only my life, but also our users.

Javier Aguera (03:16):

Most of our users, it was their, their very first device, this smart device. So, um, from seeing that, I, I started seeing the consequences, uh, very quickly firsthand. And therefore, soon, very soon after, you know, we launched that first device and we built this small company, um, I decided to focus a lot of my energy in my work on mitigating all the negative effects that can only have in our life. So, pretty much everything I've built ever since and got myself into, has been related to that topic. It's like, how do we make technology work for us, and instead of us working for the technology?

Hillary Wilkinson (03:49):

Yeah, yeah. I admire your ability to be able to have the long view very quickly. You know, I think a lot of us kind of hop on, go for the ride, and then all of a sudden are at a position that we never intended to be. But it, look, it sounds like you have, uh, an amazing ability to kind of get that long view quickly and design and implement to help people along the way.

Javier Aguera (04:18):

I, I would say there's a fair amount of serendipity there. And also, I would admit that looking backwards, it's easier to connect the dots, <laugh>, when you're in the moment, uh, you're just trying to do what, what feels right, or at least in our case, right? So it made sense to, you know, jump into privacy because that was like a, like, you know, a word that we saw users, you know, in, in the weak position, kind of losing pretty quickly, uh, with all of these big platforms and, and, uh, you know, things, things like that at the beginning was, you know, the users versus the telcos.

Javier Aguera (04:46):

Everyone, all the innovation was made by the telcos, not by not for the users. Mm-Hmm. Um, so, uh, at the moment it was kind of jumping into what felt right, looking backwards, you know, all of these dots connect around this topic. It's just easier <laugh>, it's just easier in retrospect.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:02):

I see, I see. So, um, from your perspective as an inventor, you've worked across multiple sectors that you've contributed a lot into, um, I would say like human empowering technology, like you said, to use your words, having the tech work for people, not people working for the tech. Do you have a particular product that you're most proud of?

Javier Aguera (05:32):

Um, yes. Yes, actually, yes. So, um, kind of, uh, one, one of the, probably the most impactful, uh, product that we developed back in the day was called Black Phone. Um, we basically, um, were able to bring a lot of technology that lived only in the military world, like cybersecurity and privacy protection to the land of, of, you know, <laugh>, civilians and all of us. So, uh, and we realized very quickly that, uh, for technology to be effective, it needs to be user-friendly. Uh, if you create something that adds a lot of friction to people's lives, you know, convenience always wins. Hmm. Um, and that's why we see a lot of these, uh, so-called Dark Design Patterns that just makes us get into these, uh, you know, addictive behaviors because, you know, convenience, uh, and practicality always, we we're all drawn towards that. So, um, what we did with this phone is that we made it very easy for people to protect their privacy, to say, Hey, I can have Facebook, but I'm gonna shield Facebook from knowing, um, what I do with my phone or where I am, for example.

Javier Aguera (06:37):

And one of these features that we introduced that now, uh, is really widespread is, uh, permissions. So your ability to control what permissions your apps have access to. And luckily, a bit of our approach back then was like, Hey, we're gonna try to make something proof to the world that this is useful, and then if we're successful, um, you know, our company may grow or may not grow, but hopefully the big ones will copy us. And that's what happened. Like, uh, Google adopted that, uh, and Apple adopted that, and it became like an industry standard to, you know, have permissions, uh, per granular permission control as a user. So that's probably, perhaps what we are or I am, uh, most proud of because it's really in every person's pocket these days.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:17):

And that's, that's why you're a healthy screen habits, hero, Javier!<laugh>, <laugh>.

Javier Aguera (07:23):

I cannot, I cannot be the only one to claim that <laugh> Yeah. That for fame. But, uh, but yeah, that, that's something that hopefully, uh, you know, people use in their daily life that we can help widespread.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:34):

Thank you. Okay. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Javier what he thinks are the greatest tech challenges facing humans today. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Javier Aguera, his latest venture Pandora's Way was incubated at Harvard's Institute for rebooting social media and aims to reshape the way parents guide their children into digital adolescence. And we are absolutely gonna get into that <laugh>. But before we sort of explore Pandora's Way, as someone who spends it many, many hours going over social science data, could you share with us, Javier, or what you think is the greatest challenge with the interface of kind of humans and tech today?

Javier Aguera (09:55):

I think the biggest challenge, uh, is that, um, technology, the, the, the fact that we have technology is so accessible just in our pockets and, and you know, this, this, this door to the wonders of the world and also the not so wonderful things in the world. Uh, the, the big problem of this is that it's stolen our natural ability to deal with frustration and to deal with, um, boredom. So the fact that you have something that, you know, vibrates in your pocket all the time, and just like it's shiny, that makes us, makes us dependent on, like, whenever we have a little bit of time, say, oh, I'm gonna check my messages, I'm gonna check my email. And, um, that's something that didn't used to be like that. Like, you know, you were focused doing a task and there's a noise outside. Well, you ignore the noise, um, or you're bored. Well, maybe, you know, you just take some time. <laugh>, uh, going to your day more slowly. Now, we like in this constant stressful mode where we have something that is just nagging us all the time, as if you had a puppy, uh, <laugh> by, by your features, like demanding your attention all the time. And that's probably the most problematic, um, change that I've seen in the past 10, 15 years in our, in our interaction with technology.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:08):

Mm-Hmm. And does Pandora's Way tr, like, are you attempting to ease these challenges? Or how are you approaching that?

Javier Aguera (11:18):

So the origin of, of Pandora's Way… Uh, well, it's, it's twofold because my, my co-founder Betty had, uh, Betty Ray had, has been working on this on, on her own before we met. Uh, and I had my own journey into it. But the way I arrived at, at tackling this issue specifically with kids is that I, myself found, uh, myself very distracted, uh, specifically with, um, with a Russian invasion of Ukraine over Twitter. I never really used Twitter at all, but suddenly I found myself checking Twitter all the time because, you know,I had friends fighting, uh, at the front. So, um, because of that, I started thinking, okay, how can I create something that allows me as an adult to be less distracted by technology? And I spent, you know, a few months at MIT looking at the problem, I realized <laugh> that, um, making a new tool for that was kind of futile because there are tools out there that as an adult you can use to, to, uh, be less distracted.

Javier Aguera (12:09):

And it, the problem is more about your own force of, you know, your, your own willpower because the tools are out there. But then that's what shifted me a little bit towards, hey, maybe from a behavioral science point of view, the intervention does not have to be when you're an adult, but it's most effective when you first get your phone. And maybe that's when you can build in the habits. That's maybe when you can build up the skills so that you are not so distracted in a way. You create a bit of this, you, you, if you have a bit of superpowers to deal with this when, when it hasn't creeped into your brain. Um, now we're, we have to see whether, you know, the age we're looking at, which is nine to 12 years old is the best age, maybe earlier, I don't know. But, uh, that's certainly how I arrived at, at it. And, and yeah, this is a big part of, of, uh, what we wanna achieve with Pandora's Way.

Hillary Wilkinson (12:55):

Neat. Neat. Do you guys have a release date or are you still in development?

Javier Aguera (13:00):

not yet

Hillary Wilkinson (13:01):

Not

Javier Aguera (13:01):

Yet. We are, um, so the approach we're following is, uh, we, we wanna hear from families, from experts, and we wanna co-design this, uh, along with kids and parents, um, and, and teachers. So, um, right now we're in a phase in which we're engaging, uh, kids and parents to, you know, help us build this in a way that is meaningful, that is impactful in a way that both parents who don't have much time and kids who have cooler things to do, uh, let's, you know, with the both of them, when I, wanna use, uh, or wanna embark into this journey that we're creating, so no real estate yet, um, hopefully, you know, half a year from now, there's some prototypes that, you know, some families are playing with, and maybe a year from now we have something that, um, the wider public can, can engage with. But

Hillary Wilkinson (13:47):

Mm,

Javier Aguera (13:47):

We're, we're, we're making sure we're not, um, you know, going fast and breaking things. <laugh>, we're taking Thank you. Our sweet time to make something that is useful.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:56):

Yes. Well, thank you. That's a shift in tech. Um, so just so I, uh, know what to look for when it, when it does hit, am I looking for a device or an app or what?

Javier Aguera (14:12):

You are looking, uh, at, uh, a toolkit at something that will live both in the physical world and the digital world? Um, we, because of we are co-designing this, we don't really know yet exactly what shape you'll have, but you'll have components on both. We're not making a phone, we're not making, well, we're making, it's actually fairly analog, at least at the, at the very beginning from, from, you know, it's, it is not, it's, it's not a parental control software. Um, it's not, um, a specific device is not, you know, something very high tech. It's more, um, of, um, a method that families and communities can follow to, you know, instead of gifting, uh, their kids a phone for, you know, the holidays or for their, their birthday, they're gifting them the promise of a phone. And now the kids have to earn that phone by following a rite of passage.

Javier Aguera (15:02):

So that's essentially what it is. It's a, it's, um, it's a way to bring back the role of, uh, coming of age rituals, which we have lost in most modern societies, uh, in, into, you know, the scene of the family, the scene of the community, um, because we do see getting your first phone as a kid, as a rite of passage. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, but one that is, you know, ignored. We, like, there's a lot of shifts in trust in norms, uh, but it's not orderly. It is not, it's not many times it's, it's traumatic for the families. Uh, so that's, I don't know what shape it'll have it, it will be, but, um, there'll be a third dose of magic. Uh, and, and that's kind of the word, magic and wonder embedded into the whole thing.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:42):

Oh. Oh, I, well, I can't wait. I am, we will be keeping our eye out for it. <laugh>. You kind of touched on this where, uh, you described it as sometimes the first device for a child can be almost traumatic for a family, and I think that stems around, there's a lot of fear around tech. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and parenting. And are there things that you wish parents understood about the digital lives, maybe, I mean, of their children now, but like also what will they experience? What can the world look forward to? I feel like we spend so much time, like you said, having that backwards glance and seeing where all the pitfalls were, but I, I'm, I'm looking for messages of hope, <laugh>, <laugh>.

Javier Aguera (16:37):

Well, um, I think, uh, obviously there, there are many, um, sad, um, stories out there, right? Mm-Hmm. And, and there are definitely things times when things have gone very wrong for, for, for many families. So, you know, I, I don't want to be dismissive of that. Uh, but also in the grand scheme of things, uh, you know, most kids grew up <laugh> healthy, right? And I think, uh, these conversations that we're having around phones, they happened before around tv, around the radio, uh, you know, when, when cameras came out, this whole privacy world in which I was very much part of before, like, you know, when Kodak announced the first cameras like that, that was the, the talk of the time, like in the newspapers, very similar, uh, tone, very similar conversations. And yet, you know, we managed to find ways - they're not ideal.

Javier Aguera (17:31):

And, uh, what we're trying to do here is, is making sure that, you know, there's many ways, uh, in which culture may shift in, in which, uh, we may adopt a new technology as society. And, um, certainly the way we're adopting social media, big platforms is not the best way that we, we can do as humanity. So, uh, um, I think that there's just a lot of opportunity for doing things right. And, uh, a lot of the conversation is getting around, you know, let's push, let's force platforms to change the way they do things. And that's, that may happen, uh, it will take time, uh, if it happens, but I think that even if Facebook remains Facebook and Google remains Google, there's a lot that we can do within our communities, within our families to make sure that no matter what these things are or do, um, our kids, um, and ourselves, we can, we can make the most out of it and then make it the negative effects that's gonna take effort.

Javier Aguera (18:26):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's not gonna come. It's not gonna come immediately. And certainly if you don't develop some critical thinking and some good habits yourself, you know, you're gonna be prey of whatever the engineers or the, the product designers designed for you, <laugh>. So you lose a bit of that freedom, but that freedom can be had because at the end of the day, you are the user. You have the, the device. And kids are not silly. Kids know, uh, kids know kids many times, complain when you talk to them. I talk to a lot of kids and, um, they, in a way, they're saying, Hey, we inherited this world from you adults. It's not, it's not our fault. Like, I don't care about the phone. I just want to talk to my friends. I want to belong. That's what they want. Mm-Hmm. Um, so they're aware that this is not perfect. And if you give them a way to do things better, uh, without losing that opportunity to connect and without having that sense of belonging threatened, then I think most kids will, will, will be willing to develop better habits and, and have a better relationship with their devices than you. You'd be surprised.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:27):

Yeah. No, I agree with you. I, when I've worked with, um, teenagers in classrooms they're asking for help on how to develop their healthiest path forward with technology, and it's not coming from such a place of reactivity as I think the parents are. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. It's coming from a place of wanting to know a, a lot of a lot of them are concerned about, their eyesight or Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> their posture and so we speak to those things specifically. So it's, I, I, um, I think there is a lot more thoughtfulness going into this kind of next layer of tech growth than <laugh> Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Javier Aguera (20:19):

Yeah. Also, I, I, I feel, well, it's not that I feel, I, I know that at those ages, um, the, you know, the part of your brain that, that does risk assessment is not fully developed, and therefore, um, when the educational approach is one of, like warning of the risks of doing this or doing that, that doesn't necessarily resonate. Um, it, it doesn't stick. Uh, it may stick in some kids that are a bit more, um, mature. Uh, but on average, when you're 12 year old, like that, that discourse doesn't quite work. It works for us as adults, um, but for kids it doesn't, on average, it's just not that effective. So we need to find, uh, more effective ways so that it just, you know, that they, they adopt these better practices and, and, you know, they don't get themselves in trouble. And by the way, kids have different needs and, you know, you have a kid that, uh, has attention deficit or have a kid that is more rebellious. Like you may have a harsher approach or approach in which you as partner are more in control of their media consumption. Absolutely. I'm, I'm not advocating for a one size fits all solution here. Mm-Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:24):

<affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Javier Aguera for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson

 I'm speaking with Javier Aguera, a Forbes 30 under 30 lister, and as I found out a DJ, he is one multifaceted dude. So, Javier, did I see this right, that you were actually at Burning Man this year?

Javier Aguera (23:36):

I was, yes.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:38):

In the mud?

Javier Aguera (23:39):

In the mud

Hillary Wilkinson (23:40):

<laugh>, yes. I don't know if anybody, uh, for people who are unfamiliar with Burning Man, it's, would you like to describe it a little succinctly and explain the weather event that happened? <laugh>?

Javier Aguera (23:52):

Uh, well, there's always something that happens. It's, it is just, uh, a place, it's a city that is built for a week by, you know, some of the most creative people in the world, among which I don't include myself, uh, but it's, it's kind of an artist’s playground. And, um, it's part of the deal is that it's pretty harsh. Like you're in the desert for a week, and that brings, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, <laugh>, uh, a lot of shared, uh, experiences. Uh, but yeah, this rain this year, it rained, and when it rains in the desert, things get a bit, uh, muddy. Uh, but, you know, it's, it's part of the, it's part of the adventure

Hillary Wilkinson (24:23):

<laugh>. Oh, well, you have a very good outlook, <laugh>. I, uh, I've spoken with others that were there. They are not, not necessarily as positive <laugh> in remembering the level of mud. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. So this is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Javier, do you have one?

Javier Aguera (24:51):

Yes, I have one. I think, uh, well, as I, as I said earlier, uh, one of the big issues with tech these days is that it is, it just stole away our ability to, um, to, to be bored and be frustrated. So, um, you know, as adults, uh, and in front of kids, I think it's very healthy to, whenever we have a break between things, just not go straight into your phone, just let yourself be <laugh>. Take, take a bit of a break, be in your head. Um, if you are showing your kid, but also for yourself, like the, the moment you have a break, you're going onto your phone, um, that's probably the, the, the, the most negative, one of the most negative habits you can, you can model in front of someone else and for yourself. So yeah, just allow yourself to be bored, be frustrated, um, and show your kid that that is okay. It's part of the being human side of side of things.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:39):

Yeah. And I think this is particularly powerful coming from a creative such as yourself who also holds hands with science. I mean, you're kind of a very interesting fusion of many things, but you know, the, uh, there's the saying that boredom is the first cousin to creativity. So allowing yourself that time for boredom, I'm sure has, um, given you time to explore things like music and art and the things that make this journey interesting.

Javier Aguera (26:15):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is good to think inside the box. You just, uh, people say, think outside the box. No, there's always a box. Uh, just, just create some constraints. Um, and, and that's where creativity emerges.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:27):

Neat. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to any resources discussed by visiting the show notes for this episode. Do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button podcast, and scroll to find this episode. Javier, you're incredibly humble. Um, I don't think you're, uh, you're, you're strapping on the healthy screen Habits Hero, uh, Cape as much as I, as much as I would like to strap it on you. But <laugh>, I wanna thank you for being here. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing for our kids and for everybody who's following in their paths.

Javier Aguera (27:08):

Thank you very much for having me, and congratulations on your work. It's actually absolutely necessary. And, uh, I had a, a great time with you.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:15):

Thank you.