Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

This season is all about Healthy Screen Habits, heroes. And while we certainly need our everyday heroes, those people who are grinding out the everyday tasks that keep us all living in a civilized world, there are also those organizations and people that serve to sort of collect and amplify the great works and research being done to benefit us all. Since 2013, the Children and Screens Institute has been a leading curator of experts in the field of digital media and children's health. And today we get to talk to the executive director, Kris Perry. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Kris.

Kris Perry: (00:53)

Thank you!

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:55)

Kris. You are a true champion of childhood. As previous executive director of First Five San Mateo County, First Five California and the First Five Years Fund, you have been described as working tirelessly to balance inequities and improve the lives of young children. In 2019, California Governor Gavin Newsom appointed you as Deputy Secretary of the California Health and Human Services Agency for Early Childhood Development, and as a senior advisor to the governor on implementation of early Childhood development initiatives. So I'm giving your background , because in May of last year, you became the executive director of Children and Screens, Institute of, uh, Digital Media and Child Development. And for folks who are not connected with digital wellness, can you explain what this institute is, how it came to be like? I mean, it just kind of all with someone of your background, how, how does this all come into play?

Kris Perry: (02:11)

What a great introduction and thanks so much for having me on today. Um, yeah, it does seem like a little bit of a pivot to go from thinking about large systems that provide care for children, birth to five, to thinking more broadly about children and childhood - birth to 25, and also more narrowly on the impact of digital media, on child development. Um, just like you and so many of your listeners;  in 2010 and even as recently as the Pandemic, I have become increasingly concerned about the impact of digital media on child development. And I'm gonna talk to you a whole bunch about why that is, both from a personal standpoint, but also a research standpoint. But the reason I wanted to join Children & Screens is much like you, our founder, Dr. Pamela Hurst-Della Pietra, uh, who's a parent became concerned around the same time as the rest of us that, um, one of her children had been interacting quite a bit with video games.

Kris Perry: (03:15)

And, uh, she was pretty struck by the impact of the device and on him and his, on his happiness. And so she, as a scientist, set out to find out, well, what did this, what was going on? Um, what could she learn? And she discovered there wasn't that much research at that time. And as somebody who is a pioneer and a visionary, she decided, well, if there isn't a good place to turn, maybe I should create it. And so she launched Children and Screens Institute of Digital Media and Child Development. And that has really, you know, been so unique in so many ways. It's essentially an interdisciplinary effort to advance research in the field and translate that scientific and cl clinical evidence into actionable information for diverse audiences, including parents, but also caregivers, educators, clinicians and policy makers. So in this past decade, Pam and the Institute have become one of the leading conveners, curators, grant makers and experts in the field of digital media and children's health.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:21)

Awesome.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:22)

You are kind of at the epicenter of all things that is surrounding digital media. And I'm just wondering, do you have a feel for…. Is digital media enhancing or impairing children's abilities to live happy, healthy, productive lives?

Kris Perry: (04:45)

Well, the short answer is it's a little bit of both. And, um, what I hope we can talk about is how to make it a little bit more good and a little bit less bad. I, it's, it's definitely both. Um, as you've pointed out, digital media has become essential to, to most children's lives and our own as well. Kids use technology now for school, socializing, staying in touch with family, getting news, and so much more. And I think it's really important to address just how prevalent social media is in the lives of children. So as recently as 2021 Common Sense Media did a report that showed that 84% of teens, that's kids 13 to 18, um, had ever used social media. And 62% were using it every day. Uh, among teens that use social media, the average daily time spent was two hours and 10 minutes.

Kris Perry: (05:42)

But we know it's not just teens. So even though social media platforms are designed for kids 13 and older. 38% of eight to 12 year olds also reported using social media and nearly 20% were using it every day. So just to give you a sense of why I'm worried, um, and what's going on sort of on the aggregate with kids in the United States, um, we are really worried about how much time they're on and also what they're doing while they're on. um, That this has just happened so quickly and there's been an immense amount of technological innovation, developers, programmers, companies have really honed in on children and their data and their attention, and have created products that are virtually impossible not to interact with. So there is that, that difficult piece, and I'm happy to come back and share more about what the research says about why the products are so essentially, I I don't easy, easy to, um, uh, use a little too much.

Kris Perry: (06:48)

Um, but let's talk also a little bit about the good stuff before I, before I give it back to you. Um, there are many kids growing up in the United States who are, um, from diverse groups or are marginalized and live in communities where they might not see or know somebody that they can relate to. And having an online community can be a really positive experience for kids as well as finding people who might share an interest with you online, but you don't know who they are in your community. And there are great examples of kids, um, being active and being advocates and working on issues like, I don't know, climate change or health. And that has been a really positive thing. So the negatives, um, can be, you know, mitigated by kids knowing exactly what goes on with those products and by being taught that there are positive ways to interact with online communities that might enhance their lives.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:50)

Right, right. Yeah. And, um, just so that we're completely transparent with folks, um, the social media platforms, while although they have the age limit of 13, that actually does not reflect a designation based on developmental stages. So do you wanna speak a little bit about that?

Kris Perry: (08:14)

I'm so glad you brought that up because, um, at our Congress last month, scientific Congress last month, Baroness Beeban Kidron gave a keynote speech. She, she's the president of the Five Rights Foundation, and she asked the audience of researchers who were present, why was it that tech companies could decide adulthood started at the age of 13, when everyone else is determined that adulthood starts at 18, and in some cases, 21, it is quite alarming that in just a matter of a few years, we have, um, allowed adulthood to be redefined as the age of 13. And we know that that social media platforms and products were designed for adults, and by adults I mean 18 and older. Because so much of the content is really adult content, it's intended to, um, trigger for you, you know, in a sense responses to material that may be, um, very provocative. It may be, um, pornographic, it may be violent, it may be controversial, it may be political. You know, there are just so many types of content that for someone 13 or 12 or 14, it's an awful lot to try to sort out and understand and process in a, in a, for them, much less someone who's 18 or older. These are really troubling times and this is a really very, um, you might say, um, unprotected environment, um, for young people.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:52)

Right, right. And, um, the reason for the age base of 13 actually, uh, ha goes way back to 1998 with the Children's Online Privacy and Protection Act, which as if you have listened to our podcast for any amount of time, you will know that, that it's referred to coppa and we are working on COPPA 2.0, which would update those age requirements, let's say, for accessing these, these, uh, platforms. So I really like how Children & Screens provide so many, you talk about being this kind of amalgam of researchers and like different in, you use the word interdisciplinary, which I like a lot, um, to the challenges we face. And there is no one size fits all for sure when it comes to parenting as anybody who has more than one child knows , and even more so I think when it comes to parenting in the digital age, we all have our own relationship with tech. And so that being said, what can parents do? What can, you talked a little bit about the negative aspects and like what, what can we do about this approach to parenting?

Kris Perry: (11:17)

Well, I mean, uh, you know, let me just empathize with you and your listeners around the, the, the challenge of parenting while, you know, parenting in a digital age, uh, it is proven over and over again in the research that the, uh, way that these products are designed makes them extremely compelling for young people. And in particular, that age group we were just talking about 13, 14, 10, 11, where the brain is literally actively developing and has been wired in some cases to actually want to interact with peers and compare, um, you're in, in the case often of adolescent girls. There's a, there's lots of strong evidence that shows that girls at that age tend to compare themselves to other girls of that age. And the, the, the companies do know this, and they are in a sense, algorithmically exploiting the attention of adolescent girls knowing this about that developmental stage.

Kris Perry: (12:19)

One thing I wanted to talk about, in addition to harms that may be caused by these these products is exactly what you said. It's it's case by case. It's kid by kid. There are some kids who can interact with these products and it, it doesn't impact them that much. And then there are some kids for whom it, there it's very, very, very, very negative experience. And so you have to pay close attention to your own child's behavior before, during, and after the use of some digital products to see what camp they might fall into so that you're addressing their individual needs. But in addition to that, I like to stop sometimes and think about this from the point of view of, say, a developmental psychologist or somebody who thinks broadly about child development above and beyond digital life, but in general, what is the child's job at that point in their lives?

Kris Perry: (13:10)

And so much of what's necessary to become a successful adult is not necessarily accomplished online. It's often accomplished in real life. And so I like to say, you know, if you're, if you're gonna allow your child to have access to digital media and social media products, be sure you're being as balanced as you can be, that you're thinking about what they're trying to accomplish at that stage. And we're talking about, you know, late childhood or early adolescence. And so much of what they're, the skills they're building are social interaction skills and the ability to work well with others and develop executive function, which is a way of managing your delaying gratification, managing impulses, solving complex problems. And when you are interacting with a device and a product, let's say TikTok or Snapchat that's designed to be very fast moving and, um, infinitely scroll, et cetera, et cetera, you might be interrupting other activities that you should be doing to help your child or your, you know, your for this, if children are listening, for you to develop into a strong, successful adult. And so I always think it's helpful to come back to what are we all about here? And it's really about healthy child development while interacting with digital media.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:27)

Lean into humanity. . When we, when we come back, I will be asking Kris Perry, executive director of Children's and screens a bit more about research regarding screen use and children's cognitive development. 

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Hillary Wilkinson: (14:51)

I am speaking with Kris Perry, executive director of Children and Screens, and not just a champion of childhood, but really I'm going to interject a hero of humanity. Kris was instrumental in returning marriage equality to California after the landmark 2013, US Supreme Court ruling Hollingsworth versus Perry, recognize the name Perry? In short, if you Google Kris Perry, you're going to come up with an amazingly diverse portfolio of someone who has spent her life defending people of all ages and diversities. When we talk about kids, I truly believe we have to lend our voices to those who cannot speak for themselves. So knowing that, what can we lend our voice to? Is there legislation or political movements or anything along these lines that Children and Screens supports that we can help along the way?

Kris Perry: (16:04)

Absolutely. And thank you for, for tying in some other work I've been involved in that was really about changing policy and creating environments for kids that supported them in their identity development and in their cognitive development, and in this case around digital media. It's just, it's a similar challenge, right? There are, we need some more guardrails to ensure that while children are developing and they're at vulnerable stages, we are not either subjecting them to excessive adult content and we're protecting their privacy as much as we possibly can. And so you mentioned earlier COPPA, um, and now COPPA 2.0 is pending in Congress. This is primarily a PR Privacy Protection Act. And, and I like to think of that as a policy floor for the way that for what, what the very minimum that we should want for our kids is to have the utmost privacy given their vulnerable stages of development and the things they may experiment with or be exposed to that that would be forever following them.

Kris Perry: (17:09)

And companies are using their data for, um, monetization and capitalization in ways that that's not really helpful to them. There's also another, um, bill pending KOSA Kids Online Safety Act. And I think of that a little bit more as, as maybe the second story in a house in terms of complexity. And it really talks a little bit about these design features that we've, we've touched on lightly the the ways in which those social media programs are designed to hold your attention to fire, the reward center of the brain and keep children essentially attending to the device versus say, other things going on in the environment. And those design features are everything from the infinite scroll and autoplay to the like button and other kinds of streaks to loot boxes and gambling like features. So we know that those all are very, very difficult for kids to resist and in fact can be harmful in so far as that it makes it difficult for them to attend to simple things like homework and sleeping because they're so engaged in the product. So those are two very critical bills that are pending right now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:22)

What does research show regarding the effects of screen use on children's cognitive development or social emotional development?

Kris Perry: (18:39)

Thanks. Yeah. In terms of cognition, infants and young children are developing all sorts of important cognitive skills, including things like language development, memory and attention. And generally speaking, more screen time in infancy and early childhood negatively impacts all of these. So, for instance, children who use screens more, tend to score lower on language and literary skill skills. Children with higher screen time, especially passive screen time, like watching videos, have worse working memory, which is the short-term memory you use to temporarily hold information when you're actively thinking about something. So higher screen time also relates to poor memory of sounds, um, that are important for language. Um, that's also called phonological memory. Um, one other point, children who have higher amounts of low quality screen time in the first five years of life are more likely to also have difficulties with concentration and attention, both immediately following screen use and even years later.

Kris Perry: (19:50)

So I haven't spoken too much about younger children, but I, I think it's really critical for people to understand how big those impacts are, how early in life it is. And if you think of things in trajectories or trends, right, you're starting a trajectory very early that will probably be going upward . The more so the longer you can avoid screens with young children, right? You're starting that trajectory later, therefore it won't go up as high, in other words, high in terms of the child's interest in maybe even, um, strong desire for, you know, television and social media, et cetera. The delay of those, um, products as long as possible really helps, um, improve their memory, language development, executive function, et cetera.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:44)

Right? Which for um, those people of a certain age, which I am rapidly approaching , the whole memory thing starts getting infinitely more important. Mm-Hmm . And so, like you said, if you, if you view it as a trajectory that can have long lasting implications, way beyond the immediacy of the first five years or even the first 20 years, we're talking lifelong changes. An invaluable resource, is the Children in Screens YouTube channel where you can listen and view these, ask the experts webinars. These webinars take a specific topic surrounding children and digital media and do a panel discussion that just takes this deep dive into the topic. And they're amazing tools. I, I honestly, I set my calendar by the live webinars, but I'm wondering, do you have any favorite webinars on the channel? Is that like asking you who's your favorite kid?

Kris Perry: (22:05)

No, I don't know. I mean, we have so many now, you know, dozens and dozens with, so it really, the world's leading experts on a vast array of topics related to child development and the research in the field. And because we're interdisciplinary every you can, you scientists from so many different fields that it's, it's really a treasure trove. If I were gonna pick a favorite, um, I would say that uh, the webinars around early childhood are of course, um, some of my very favorites based on my background. And I believe that's just such a critically important period of development. And as I've said earlier, it lays a foundation for everything else to come. So the most recent one would be, um, zero to five, Eenie, Meanie, Mighty Tech, really love that one. And another one is the Social Brain On Screens, which we hosted this past spring. And um, we've been talking a little bit about the cognitive impacts, um, and some mental health impacts that we're still really trying to wrap our arms around and think about, you know, what screens are doing to change social interaction, um, and social perception. So as humans, as you know, we are innately social creatures. And because that's so important, we need to know more about how screen use both early and frequent use is impacting social development and wellbeing.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:33)

Thank you for the recommendations and um, I'm absolutely gonna go back and do a rewatch . We have to take a short break, but when we come back I am going to ask Kris Perry for her healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson: (23:54)

I'm speaking with Kris Perry, executive Director of Children and Screens: Institute of Digital Media and Child Development. They are a nonprofit whose mission is to understand and address compelling questions regarding media's impact on child development through interdisciplinary dialogue, public information and rigorous objective research, which bridges, talk about interdisciplinary, it bridges medical, neuroscientific, social science, education, and academic communities. It's really a one-stop shop. So Kris, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have any to share?

Kris Perry: (24:51)

Of course, I do. Thank you for asking. And I was actually, this is a hard question 'cause there's so many evidence-based tips for parents. So I just please go to our website, childrenandscreens.com for more than the one I'm about to give. But the one I think is so essential having just returned from the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Conference in New York is no screens in the bedroom, especially at night. That one came up time and time again as as being, uh, uh, uh, one of the very best things you can do because, um, the experts have really across all disciplines agreed that this is one of the best things you can do to protect the child, um, and improve their sleep quality. Which, um, as you can imagine, even as adults, this, this is challenging, but for children, they have to have sleep to grow and develop and rest and, uh, have their optimal, um, experiences during the day.

Kris Perry: (25:56)

So I feel like, um, it's really important to make sure that the screen isn't in the bedroom at night and, and preferably not on a screen two hours before bedtime. That's, that's an even, um, you know, that's a little bit trickier, but honestly there's evidence to show that that really helps with sleep as well. And to the extent you can keep phones and screens out of the bedroom period, um, and only have them in common family places or spaces, that's a really helpful way to prevent some of those harmful experiences or inappropriate content from being, you know, from your child seeing them because they're out in a family area and you would know and you would be able to, to intervene. So no screens in the bedroom, especially at night.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:42)

Yeah. And I think that that goes for the whole family, right?

Kris Perry: (26:47)

Yes. Well, you're giving me an opportunity to talk about my second most favorite tip, which is be a good digital role model. Uh, we didn't talk about technoference or some of the other things that researchers have discovered, but kids are always watching and they know from the very beginning of their life as almost as soon as they're observing you, they are really noticing that you are on your phone too. And it's so important to display good digital habits, like putting your device away, not having it out while you're interacting with others, taking breaks from your device. Um, you're really modeling for them how to interact with the device in a way that it's not all consuming. Um, that there's screen time and then there's family time and there's friend time. It's not all the time.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:41)

Thank you for those. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to any resources discussed by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Kris, thank you so much for being here today for all you have done and all you continue to do. It's really been an honor to speak with you.

Kris Perry: (28:11)

What a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.