For more info: Heed The Children

Hillary Wilkinson (00:00):

Heed The Children is an initiative of the nonprofit organization Leap Forward from their website, Heed the Children is described as a movement of everyday people committed to the protection of children from the destructive effects of smartphones and social media and the effects that they're having on their mental and physical health. The recognition of the power of everyday people is something that I feel does not get celebrated enough. It reminds me of this quote from that cultural anthropologist icon, Margaret Mead, who said, “Never underestimate the power of a small group of committed people to change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has.” So, I love it because I'm, I'm looking at my guests today and they're all giving me thumbs up. We are all on the same page. I cannot wait to learn more about this petite powerhouse called Heed the Children. And today we get to talk to three members, Dazia Wallerson, Katty Lau and Sebastian Steinbach. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits.

Dazia Wallerson (02:27):

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:29):

I'm so glad you're here. So guys, I love a naming story. I think there's power in names.  It goes way back 'cause I had this copy of a book called, What Shall We Name The Baby <laugh> back in the 1980s by my bedside table. And I, I remember spending hours reading like definitions and histories of certain names, and the name Heed the Children sounds incredibly intentional to me. So can you tell me the background of your name?

Dazia Wallerson (03:04):

Yes, absolutely. Definitely intentional. So when we first gathered as a team, we came up with a name that was called Parents United. And it was in the effort to help parents really just see the pain and feel the harms and not feel alone in this journey. Um, you know, this technology is just constantly rapidly evolving and we all didn't really know how to navigate and how it fits into our lives. So we began to realize that, you know, at working with parents, working with schools, that the movement grew beyond it just being Parents United. It included different school administrators and community leaders and such. Um, but our founder, Roni Hartwell just really helped us connect to a deeper vision. And that was that this is a movement that elevates a particular priority where our children really just putting forth their care and caring about their survival. And so the word heeded was just a much more causal, intentional word for us to pay attention and prioritize and just take action for the health and wellbeing of our children. So we're now Heed the Children.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:15):

And do you guys specialize primarily in, um, issues surrounding tech or is it, is it a broad social umbrella that you guys are looking at?

Dazia Wallerson (04:28):

For Heed the Children, we specifically look at tech and replacement of technology with non-tech activities and healthier tech. 

Hillary Wilkinson (04:51):

So, the mission of Heed the Children is to raise awareness to the numerous sufferings our children are experiencing due to their exposure to smartphones and social media, including depression, bullying, addiction, and difficulties with attention. You call out, um, social media and smartphones as having destructive effects on children's mental and physical health. Why is social media so destructive to children's mental health?

Katty Lau (05:55):

So, um, since the introduction of smartphones, there's data that points to mental, emotional and physical health concerns linked to social media. And this is due to the design features and algorithms such as Instagram or TikTok, for example, they trigger dopamine, which is the area of the brain's reward center. So features such as likes and notifications, they bring very temporary moments of pleasure and satisfaction, and that can become addictive the way gambling and drugs can. And then other specific issues, which you've named some of, um, and I will add to are cyber bullying, exposure to harmful content, exposure to sexual predators and lack of sleep, which children really need for their developing minds.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:43):

Thank you, Katty. Okay. I spent some time on Heed the Children website is this three part action plan for families or individuals to do. I think awareness building is this incredibly important ongoing task, but we're kind of at a point in our digital growth as, as humanity <laugh>, you know, in our growth, that awareness is not enough. People are really looking for tools on their path forward. And I, I'm so appreciative of your specific breakdown of tools and could one of you go over the three parts that you list on your website?

Katty Lau (07:32):

Yes, I'd love to do that. Um, so there are three parts of our Heed the Children mission. Number one is to eliminate the use of unhealthy social technologies from our children's lives. And this is through education, like webinars, talks, sharing resources, and our pledge. So our pledge is where parents pledge to wait at least until age 16 to give a smartphone or to minimize the exposure of harmful technologies if they have already been exposed. And, um, number two is to replace these technologies with online and offline alternatives and to promote the best in our children. So for example, we share alternatives to smartphones, weekly adventure learning, and also tech-free teen nights. And these are organized by parents. And number three, our last one is cultivation of community. So as you had shared earlier, Hillary, we are completely in alignment in empowering and building community through integrated cooperation and with a common belief of prioritizing our children's wellbeing.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:42):

Mm-Hmm. I love how you recognize the importance of replacing I think anybody who has struggled with any form of behavioral addiction or substance addiction or anything, you know, to be, and I'm not saying that, you know, a child is necessarily addicted to technology, but I think there's always better buy-in if, when we're taking away something you're offering, uh, something in place of, so I love, I love how the, uh, you guys focus on that as well. It's a really key component rather than just kind of taking things away and saying, figure it out, <laugh>, you know? Okay. You really, really provide those supportive tools. Thank you. So when we come back, I am going to be asking the crew from Heed the Children a bit more about actionable tips and resources surrounding kids, smartphones, and social media.

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Ad Break:  HSH Website

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Hillary Wilkinson (09:50):

I'm speaking with Dazia Wallerson, Katty Lau, and Sebastian Steinbach all founding members of the organization, Heed the Children. They are passionate about supporting children to develop self-esteem, curiosity, critical thinking, healthy social and peer interactions, and a connection with nature. So when I look at all of these components, I feel like this is like the recipe for a healthy human being. <laugh>, you know, <laugh> like you guys have really boiled it down to just, that's, that's the, the perfect match <laugh>. And you look at all of the things, and it can seem a little overwhelming because that's a, that's a tall order there. If parents are to kind of choose one area of those to start with, is there, an area that is like, kind of like a keystone for unlocking potential growth in all of these areas? Is there one one area that you would recommend starting in?

Sebastian Steinbach (13:50):

I'd love to answer that Hillary,  social media platforms are, are designed to do one thing, and that is to make us dependent on them. And so the keystone antidote for that really is independence. So give your kid a say in their lives, give them freedom to make choices. Give them agency to have a say in how their day goes. Don't plan everything. Don't plan every waking minute for them, because you know what that actually is. Also making them and keeping them dependent. And if you wanna foster critical thinking and so on, you want to give him a chance to have to do that. So in some way, I'm saying, remember how you grew up. Many of us got kicked out of the house after school and say, come back, uh, for dinner. And then guess what? We had to connect to ourselves and what are we curious about and what's around us? And what does nature have here? And hey, connect to our friends, be curious, try things, fail and, you know, come back up, build resilience, but also have our adventures and our triumphs. Get to know who we are, build that self-esteem through our own experiences. And that is really what children need to grow up to be healthy, strong, and resilient humans. Um, that'd be my recommendation. And it doesn't cost a lot either.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:18):

Yeah. Yeah. If anything, it's, uh, it's free

Sebastian Steinbach (15:35):

<laugh>, I know are the best things in life. Free maybe, maybe in this case there's

Hillary Wilkinson (15:39):

To that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that. I like your focus on, on uh, kind of giving kids agency, create their own adventure, sort of Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's, it can be uncomfortable to watch and wait through the period where they're wandering around.

Sebastian Steinbach (15:58):

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:59):

But I think when you take a deep dive into the creative process, you recognize that they're wandering around with what we might consider looking bored or them complaining “I'm bored”, you know, is actually an incubationary period for creativity. I

Sebastian Steinbach (16:21):

Love the way you frame that, so, yep. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:23):

Yeah. So, so I think if we as parents, we just remember, “Oh good!  they're bored!” <laugh> rather than feeling like it's a, a problem we have to fix, you know,

Sebastian Steinbach (16:35):

It's, it's really exactly how you say it. There is the pain of seeing them come with the faces and like, “I'm bored” and like there is an impulse to fix it for them. I have it. Many parents I speak to have it. And yet that is exactly the moment where we don't wanna fix it for them because they are incredibly resilient. And you know what? It gets boring for them to be bored very quickly. I see that too consistently. And then they'll come up with the most amazing things that you could have never thought or prepared for them, and it's theirs. And then they know “I can!” And, and that's just beauty.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:10):

Yeah, for sure. So one of the challenges that I think even, I mean, I've been in this digital wellness pond for a long time at this point, but it can still be really hard to start conversations or bring up concerns surrounding kids and tech within our own social circles and families. I'm trying to like, tap into your guys' tool belt here. How do you recommend we bring a both awareness to the, our, like I said, our social circles and loved ones, but I mean, how do we start those conversations? Do you guys have tools to do that?

Dazia Wallerson (18:00):

Yes. So this is Dazia again, speaking. Um, but we pretty much see it in a very simple light of just kind of coming from a place of transparency and leading with inquiry around, you know, I don't know this terrain, or this is newly impacting my children in this way. And, you know, just being very vulnerable about it and leading with curiosity and just asking those necessary questions. we have a resource list as well, that we have resources that can be shared. And, you know, if conversations can begin by just sharing a particular article or something that has been shown about the data of social tech and asking other parents, you know, how do you feel about the use of smartphones or the presence of social technology or even gaming? How does it live in, in your household?

Dazia Wallerson (18:54):

Um, have you introduced your children to smartphones and did you notice a change? Um, and just it also begins with leading with yourself and sharing personal experiences that are occurring for you. Because nine times out of 10, we find out that we're actually not alone in this, and we have the obligation now at this point to kind of have those conversations across the room. Um, and so just leading with inquiry there and also with your children. Like, what is, what makes a particular platform so popular? And I think coming from that space that, that curious space is really helpful in, in starting those kind of conversations.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:38):

I couldn't agree with you more as far as, um, both in talking with, you know, neighbors and fellow parents, but also with my own kids. Like, like there, there are times when I'm like, why I don't, like, why, why is this Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't get this. Why is this cool? You know, <laugh>, right? And, and kind of, yeah. Coming from a place of inquiry and, assuming positive intent I think is important too, you know, so that we don't come across as finger pointing, right? So, yeah. Yeah. I love that. I

Sebastian Steinbach (20:13):

I just wanna double click on what Dazia just said, and you, you resonated with Hillary, which is it, it is surprisingly easy to start conversations with other parents. In my experience, if you just ask a question like, what, how, how, what are you concerned about with like, and people start really sharing and they have their own questions. And from these questions, a pinging pong effect happens and, and easily fill an hour or two if you bring a couple people together. Parents know more than they know. Once we share that with each other, it's amazing how much everybody learns in this process and, and about the children.

Sebastian Steinbach (21:01):

I must very humbly say, when I started to actually ask them honestly about why this or that platform or game matters to them without already knowing what I wanted them to land on, when it got real, I actually learned things I didn't know. And, and I saw how, how my default had been, the finger wagging and the making technology just a bad thing, which they don't believe they don't buy and nothing will happen from it. But when I flipped it, yeah, uh, again, it was humbling, but there was a beginning of an actual conversation. And that's the trust that we need to build with our kids if we wanna keep that conversation going. When it gets difficult later on when they have the cyberbullying or other things happening to them, we want that trust. So we have to learn to listen

Hillary Wilkinson (21:55):

Right. And I think to add to that, it can't just be one and done conversations. They have to be, it's like hydration. You cannot drink a gallon of water on Sunday and think you're gonna be fine come Wednesday. You have to have little sips of water. Uh, you know, so anytime we can just interject those conversations and just have those little sips of water, it leads to good hydration, <laugh> and better digital wellness. <laugh>,

Katty Lau (22:28):

Uh, I'm gonna come in here as well. I'm Katty, and you know, all of us do lead parent groups, um, Heed the Children's support groups, and these are regular meetings where parents bring in what's working, what's not working, what is the school policy that's working and not working, and this is where real change occurs. So I think part of our empowerment of building community, parents have to understand that they have the power in the numbers for change. And if there's something that they're not happy with, they can do something about it.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:01):

Right? It goes back to Margaret Mead, right. Never doubt the small group of people. <laugh>. I agree. Do you guys have any, uh, I, I, Katty touched on this earlier, but just to reiterate it, because I think it's, I it's an important, it's an important number. Do you have age recommendations for social media acquisition?

Sebastian Steinbach (23:25):

Yeah. Um, so what, seven, about seven years ago? Uh, when Wait Until Eighth started really? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, everybody in the space knows them. There were great pioneers in raising awareness among parents on this issue. What we knew then was really not much, but it was like probably 13 is a, is a good limit and not don't give it to them earlier. And so that's why, you know, that that became that Wait Until Eight. Meanwhile, we know more, like just earlier this year, the surgeon general publicly stated that he's very concerned with children getting access to social media age 13, because that's smack in the middle of the most vulnerable times of their brain's development where identity forms and belonging is shaky. And so, like, it's very dangerous to let them on these platforms. And how I understand the current research, there seems to be like a, a crystallization around like, yeah, 16 is probably the earliest you want to give a smartphone. You might wanna wait with social media even longer where 18 could be the minimum there. If we look at the optimal sinking with the brain's development, and of course the research is evolving and, and getting stronger, but it's a lot of points that tell us Yeah. Not before 16, if you can avoid it.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:59):

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting to me to have noticed in the, the more we know, the more we tend to want to back out the technology and back out the social media access, because like you said, seven years ago it was oh 13, and I, I believe that kind of stems from a lot of the social media platform saying, or you have to be 13 to use this platform. And many parents understandably thought that that was a developmentally based guideline, which it's not. It was based on a privacy and protection act that had been written in 1998. So dealing way before the technology that we are dealing today, so that that particular act is, uh, being, is being rewritten and is trying to go through right now, that would be COPPA 2.0 and I've certainly covered that in the past.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:08):

Yeah. Um, but going with social media, I, I think it's really interesting how, yeah, we kind of went from 13 to 16 to now. You, you guys are, uh, you guys are pioneers. It's the first I've heard 18, but I'm thinking like, oh, this is very interesting. You know, and having, having teens myself, it's, um, it it's going to, it. I understand why you say that. I think it's also a very tough sell because I can tell you that a lot of their, you know, a lot of their clubs and a lot of the stuff that they're actually working on to build college resumes, a lot of it comes from managing social media accounts. And so it's, it's going to take a reframing and a rethinking about how we communicate with groups as a whole. So, but it's not to say it can't happen <laugh>,

Sebastian Steinbach (27:06):

And we have to be realistic by the way, the number 18 for social media is that's not us having done the research and saying, this must be it. It's really following the what's going on currently. And I, that number I personally gleaned from Jonathan Haidt’s work who mm-Hmm. <affirmative> communicates very, um, fervently about this issue and that that is what resonated as like Yep. Distinguishing smartphone, social media. That seems to be a very smart move. Um, and unfortunately we also have to be realistic or fortunately, while the recommendations to give access to smartphones have gone up, the reality is more and more younger kids have access to smartphones and social media. Right? If you look at the last six years, it's not that people have waited more. No. They gave, if anything, they gave it earlier and fifth graders get their smartphone as a graduation gift for middle school, uh, in large, in large numbers. So the reality is very different. And so while we have this invitation to take the pledge to say, “I wait until 16”, which will be fantastic, we also know that for many parents, that's not the reality. And like our movement really is for our parents. And we, we need to work with what we have and do the best we can.

Sebastian Steinbach (28:24):

Where we all seem to unite on - parents with and without having given smartphones earlier or not, is this spark around, let's work together to create alternatives. So they really don't even want to be on their phones so they can have adventures in real life. That seems to touch everyone. And hopefully that helps us get everyone off their devices more and into real life.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:51):

Yeah. Yeah. That's part of your, your replacement theory, <laugh>. And, and I do encourage parents to explore, uh, bridging devices, you know, not necessarily smartphones, but, but devices that can offer communication tools and really be very good kind of training wheels for acquiring, fully loaded smartphones later on. So we have to take a break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Heed the Children for their healthy screen habit. I'm speaking with Dazia, Katty and Sebastian today from the organization Heed the Children, an initiative of Leap Forward. And Katty, you spoke earlier about the parent groups and knowing that people are wanting tools to move forward and, you know, express concerns with like-minded people, how might people get in contact with either starting a parent group or becoming, a member?

Katty Lau (32:27):

Yes. So, um, you know, through our own experiences, um, Sebastian, Dazia and I of leading, um, parent groups, we realized the potential of this and that people really need it. We've all benefited whether it's our own families or other families. And so we have a starter guide that we would love for parents to have to start their own groups. And, um, beyond the Starter Guide, we are offering monthly calls, support calls for parents that are passionate and interested in this 'cause we wanna create a larger audience of conversation and engagement so we can work on initiatives together potentially. if you're interested in starting your own parent group, please log into HeedtheChildren.org and you can contact us there.

Hillary Wilkinson (33:56):

Wonderful. Okay. So guys, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one?

Dazia Wallerson (34:18):

Yes, we do. This is Dazia again. And, um, we, each of us practice something that we call a screen time Shabbat <laugh>, which is pretty much us creating just intentional downtime from screens and just switching them off for a period of time. So this could be, you know, at the dinner table or around bedtime. And it's just really important to, to have that time to reconnect with your children, reconnect within your family. And, um, it's really important for parents to kind of model these behaviors as well. So we'd like to offer that for all who are listening and, um, hope it, uh, it serves in the best way again, to just continue to go back to reconnection between each other and selves and really helping our children thrive.

Hillary Wilkinson (35:04):

Yes, I couldn't agree more. ( In fact that reminds me of an episode I did with Tiffany Shlain on her book 24/6  - I’m going to play it next week.)  As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to any of the resources discussed, including that past episode by visiting the show notes Do that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Thank you three, so much for being here today. Thank you for your passion and dedication to kids. You are definitely a small group of people who are changing the world.

Dazia Wallerson (36:09):

Thank you, Hillary. Thank you. We're trying our best to change, change ourselves and, you know, support our families and come together as a community to help us all thrive. So thank you. Yeah.