(Try) Sparking joy in digital life, (through)...regularly decluttering digital spaces.

~Christina Cook

Christina Crook is a pioneer and leading voice in digital well-being.The award-winning author of The Joy of Missing Out: Finding Balance in a Wired World, harbinger of the global #JOMO movement, and Good Burdens: How to Live Joyfully in a Digital Age, Christina shares her insights about technology and our daily lives.

Listen and learn about living joyfully, managing tech and more!

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For more info: Christina's website

The JomoCast: Apple Podcasts

Books mentioned - Amazon links:

The Joy of Missing Out: Finding Balance in a Wired World

Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture

Good Burdens: How to Live Joyfully in the Digital Age

Show Transcript

Christina Crook (00:00):

We look at all the possible harms and real harms for our children. It is easy to be in a place of fear. But as a parent of three children of my own, you know, I don't wanna be fear led, I wanna be love led.

Hillary Wilkinson (00:35):

We hear so much about the effect of FOMO on users of all ages in regards to social media. FOMO, which is an acronym for the phrase, Fear Of Missing Out happens when we see others on a social media feed, having fun together, doing something collectively, or just kind of that feeling that others are having, like more fun, better lives, experiencing better things than that, than you are. And this is where my guest today enters the chat. She is a proponent of JOMO, which is kind of the antithesis of FOMO. JOMO stands for the phrase Joy of Missing Out. And I love this sort of turning something on its head and giving it a shake. <laugh>, she's the award-winning author of The Joy of Missing Out Finding Balance in a Wired World. The host of the Jomo Cast, which is a podcast and regularly shares her insights about technology and our daily lives in international media, including in the New York Times, psychology Today and Harper's Bazaar. I can't wait to learn more about JOMO and how we can all live a little more joyfully. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Christina Crook.

Christina Crook (01:55):

Thank you so much for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:58):

Christina, what can you tell us about JOMO and how did you come to realize that it needs amplification? Mm-Hmm,

Christina Crook (02:07):

<affirmative>. So, uh, yes, JOMO is the joy of missing out, and I define it as the joy of missing out on the right things to make space for what matters most. And of course, that's, you know, different for each and every person. And I love the phrasing of jomo because it is, as you said in the introduction, a joyful frame on all of the things we can enter into if we use our technology more mindfully, or we disconnect entirely for portions of our day or portions of our week, or portions of our year, um, to, you know, reconnect to the real world and, and find a better balance. So my own journey with jomo, so I I have been in the digital wellbeing space. I, I would honestly can say from the very beginning, one of those sort of pioneering voices, my first book, the Joy of Missing Out, came out in 2015.

Christina Crook (02:53):

So, you know, kind of ahead of the curve for better or worse, um, the early Voices. I remember 90% of my job at that point was sort of convincing people that there was a problem. Um, we've, you know, we've come across a huge threshold now in terms of consensus that there's a huge need for better parameters and people are seeking solutions. But, um, my first book was originally titled, interestingly, digital Detox. And as some of your listeners might know, especially given where you're based, there is or was, no, I think it's rebooted now. Uh, camp Grounded in California. And they actually, um, trademarked the term Digital Detox. Um, and so anyways, long story short, we had to pivot, um, and changed the name quite last minute with that original book. And we did choose the title, the Joy of Missing Out. And I have been thankful each and every day for that change because it completely transformed the conversation, um, from a doing without, right, a removal of something and into a positive frame on all the joys we can enter into. So that's where Jomo came from and, and what it means to me.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:59):

I love, I love how that reframing is such a positive thing because it's so hard sometimes I feel like it's, it's very easy to get trapped into that downward spiral when we're, when we're studying the effects of our digital world. And so I I, I think it, it, you know, things happen sometimes without plans, but sometimes it all works out. So <laugh>.

Christina Crook (04:27):

Yeah, I think -if I could just jump on that for a second. I think as parents it is very easy to default to fear. I know it is for me, and it's actually become a discipline to look for the good, to look, you know, for a joyful lens, a positive lens on things. And I, I need to give credit to my original publisher, new society publishers because their whole mandate is, you know, tools for a better society. And so I couldn't just focus on the harms I had to, it had to be a solution based focused. And so that, you know, that that's, you know, what kind of cha changed that trajectory for me. I think for a lot of people it's easier to just see, I dunno, there's technophiles and technophobe. I definitely fall way into the technophobe category, you know, like a very self-described Luddite. I would be very happy in simpler times. And so it's very easy for me to see the negative implications of any new technology as opposed to the potential positive benefits. Um, and then we look at all the possible harms and real harms for our children. It is easy to be in a place of fear, but as a parent of three children of my own, you know, I don't wanna be fear led, I wanna be love led and inspire my kids, um, to a better way of living. I want them to look at the world

Christina Crook (05:44):

as a place that is just a good place that they can trust people. We can put our trust in people, of course, we have to be wise in that decision making. But I think that's really important because there is already so much fear in our world. And so that's a discipline for me to push myself into that kind of lens.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:02):

Yeah. And such a healthy one. Uh, so you teach the JOMO method as an action oriented digital wellbeing program. Can you kind of like go through a few of the components of that for us? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Christina Crook (06:17):

So it's a four module course. Um, it's, it's very self-directed. We've run live cohorts of it, um, which I really enjoyed and we'll probably do again. But it's, it's a, it's a wonderful program. It goes through, you know, the first, um, module is all about really understanding all of the, uh, persuasive technology mechanisms right? At work. We've gone into the hook model. We get into all of, you know, the ways in which big, big tech is, you know, intentionally creating platforms to be addictive. And, and just understanding that baseline is incredibly important. Um, then we get into the second module, which is really about identifying your own joys and goals, and then looking very concretely at your active screen time. And then in the third module, we're bringing those goals and those values into alignment with our screen use. And then the third, um, so the fourth module is all about navigating technology for life.

Christina Crook (07:11):

So making long-term social commitments, um, making long-term environmental changes, both in your physical, um, and digital environments to support those changes in, in the long haul. And just like one sort of practical, um, piece from that, that final, um, part of the, the course, you know, the power of social commitments, I love, I love this one in particular. And what I mean by that is, so, you know, Scandinavia ranks almost every year at the top of the world happiness, right? Um, report, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> year over year. And one of the reasons why Scandinavia ranks so consistently high is because per capita, they, on average, a Scandinavian has say four to five standing social commitments in their calendar every week. So they go swimming in the sea together. They have their craft club, they have their book club, they go to choir. Like, they have these standing commitments already in their calendar.

Christina Crook (08:05):

So it's at the end of their workday. They're not thinking to themselves, should I reach out to a friend? Should I do a thing? Or should I just, you know, roll over from working on, you know, from home and then switching to another screen on our couch, you know, my couch and binge watch. They have a commitment that they've already made in their calendar and with other people that are expecting them to be there. And the power of that is, is, is huge in terms of our over all wellness and, and, um, yeah, over our, over, well, our overall wellbeing. And so that's one of the, the things, um, we really, uh, encourage our students in that last module is to make some really concrete social commitments and, and sticking with those, I'm a rower. I don't row by myself. I row in a crew. And simply because that commitment forces me to get up on all the mornings, I don't wanna get up and schlep myself down to the dock and get in that boat, because if I don't, I'm letting a bunch of other people down. And, um, there's huge value in that. So that's a kind of a, a high level look at, at the course.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:11):

Yeah. And you talk about the, the value being a high level value. And I, um, I have read happiness studies that have even said that joining a social group such as your rowing group or something like that, has the equivalent in the happiness index, if you will. Is the equivalence of receiving like a $15,000 raise at work? I mean, when you put it like on a monetary Exactly. Well, you know, I mean, this is after, after you reach a certain economic level. Clearly. If you're somebody who's making, you know, $18,000 a year, a 15,000 <laugh>, I mean, that would be a very, a very different thing. But, um, yeah, no, I mean, when you, after you, after you meet basic needs, then you come in and join having that social connection, like you say. So that, I mean, that is motivation enough for some people to, you know, form a book club or look out for something that they could do in their community. So, yeah. So I also, I've, you know, in getting ready to chat with you, I've kind of geeked out on all things Christina Crook, <laugh>, and one of the things that I've heard you talk about previously is this, the importance of digital housekeeping or digital decluttering. And can you talk about that a little bit?

Christina Crook (10:37):

Yeah. I mean, you know, our beloved Marie Kondo, right? Got rich and famous by the teaching people the magic of tidying up. So same sort of principle in terms of sparking joy in our digital life, really regularly decluttering our digital spaces. It's a thing that we all kind of know we need to do. It's funny, my dad was just visiting, um, from Vancouver, British Columbia, and he was on his phone and he had time to kill. I mean, he's retired, he's got time on his hands, but he's like going through his contacts being like, teach me how to delete contacts. Like I have all of these additional contacts, like someone like him who has a lot of extra time. Sure, maybe he'll go about doing these things, but for most of us, we know we should clean up our contacts. We should unsubscribe from email.

Christina Crook (11:19):

We're probably following a bunch of social media accounts that like, who the heck even knows what they are anymore. Like, some of them are really toxic and not adding value to our lives anymore. So the digital decluttering workshops, which I'm actually running one, um, this Thursday, this is gonna come out afterwards, but you can go to my website, experience jomo.com and, uh, there's free resources there. And we run the webinars pretty often. Um, but it's just a live one hour block where we just sort of systematically go through a simple rubric for unfollowing content to clear away digital clutter and make space for what matters most. And it's pretty fun. We, there's really funny memes in there. We try to have a good time. There's lots of chat. We're like high fiving in the chat about like, oh, like, you know, some people unfollow 50 accounts, right?

Christina Crook (12:04):

And they're like little five minute block they're given. And it's just, it's very empowering. And I think, you know, and just very practically I'll share one of the things. So in the social media, uh, the social media section, we get people to ask in sequence, the first question is, who is this can, can do? Do you know immediately who or what this is? If you can't answer what it is, immediately unfollow them. Okay, just unfollow. If you can answer who or what it is, then you get to the second one, which is, is this important? Is this important to me right now? Is there value right now to me in this content? Um, if there isn't unfollow, if there is, then you can move on to the third question. The third question is, do I wanna bring this with me? It could be true that you know what it is and that it's important, but do you need to bring this content into the future with you?

Christina Crook (12:51):

It, it was true that there was value for you some at some point in time. 'cause that's why you followed that account. Maybe you were planning a big trip and you followed a bunch of accounts related to a big planning. Maybe that trip didn't happen. So now you're looking at those accounts feeling really bad that you didn't go on that trip, right? Like, it's all this trickle down effect of all this content that's coming in front of our eyeballs every day. So just consistently cleaning those spaces up to sort of spark joy. And, and one of the things we do in the desktop cleanup is we actually create a, a joy folder. Um, so all those things that you've got kicking around all over your computer, just putting them in one folder and you can kind of just dip in there every once in a while when you need a, a pickup. So that's the digital decluttering.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:30):

Nice. Nice. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I will be asking Christina Crook about the work she's doing at university campuses and combating some of the current social challenges of our time.

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Hillary Wilkinson (14:27):

I'm speaking with Christina Crook, the creator and host of the Jomo Cast Podcast, where she interviews leaders embracing the joy of missing out to thrive in a rapidly changing world. Christina was listed as a change maker in all tech is humans responsible guide to tech. And Christina, you told us that you enjoy rowing. What, what are other things that you like to do offline?

Christina Crook (14:55):

Ooh, I like, um, doing cross. I do, I cross stitch. Okay. Oh, it's <laugh>. It's a good, it's a sort of a grandma type thing. I do those like just basic little wooden rings, you know, they're little kits and I get through them and when I finish what I just give them away. Um, and I am in, I am in a craft club and we get together once a month, uh, and that's usually what I'm, I'm busy with. And, uh, I like gardening. I also really enjoy gardening.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:18):

Well, good for you! Being in a, being in a social group that's preset on your calendar, you're, you're, uh, practicing what you preach <laugh>.

Christina Crook (15:26):

Yeah. It's awesome.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:28):

Yeah. So recently you launched a digital wellbeing program that increases student social engagement and academic focus at Virginia Tech. Can you, how is that going?

Christina Crook (15:40):

Yeah, it's going super well. I just got back from another four days on campus, um, giving presentations to the Student Affairs administration with my colleague there, Lori Fritch, who's the Assistant Director of the Wellness Department at Virginia Tech. And they have just embraced JOMO with open arms. They actually reached out to me, this is almost two years ago now. Um, in their own words, you know, their best and brightest students were coming back to campus languishing before classes even started. This is, you know, very acutely coming out of the COVID-19 isolation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And what they had internally developed was a workshop called the Unwind Offline. And it was going pretty well, but in their own words, they said, you know, we might, at this rate, we might reach 3% of the student population. What we really need is a campus-wide digital wellbeing campaign.

Christina Crook (16:31):

And so that's what we at JOMO have helped them co-create there at Virginia Tech. Um, we developed a four week digital wellbeing challenge. Uh, the 73.8% of students that go through our challenge have made a behavior change and, and intend to continue with that change. So incredible behavior change there. And that's continuing to grow and expand. And also we've developed, um, uh, sort of a common room activation where we put in phone boxes that have conversation card decks inside and have a bunch of inspirational, um, and educational content related to digital wellbeing. And so that's, um, expanding out from one major dining hall now into the library into other common spaces on campus. And so what we've done there, and we're modeling there, um, is growing now to multiple campuses. We've got kind of a beautiful pocket happening in the greater Virginia area. We did a training with, uh, James Madison University, Wake Forest, uh, university of Virginia, Roanoke College, a whole group of them just the week before last.

Christina Crook (17:32):

And, um, really trying to form up, uh, a coalition for dig, collegiate digital wellbeing. That's really my colleague's vision. We at JOMO Campus, you know, we we're we're our program, you know, is a for-profit, and, and, you know, we're so excited to partner with more and more campuses, but on the academic side, we really also wanna just equip within, you know, a collegiate way, um, share resources, et cetera. So kinda doing both of those things in tandem, it's been really exciting to see the impact on students, particularly in terms of social connectedness students that some of the students that went through our challenge, you know, they hadn't really established core friendships yet. It was their first semester on campus. So the challenge really pushed them out of their comfort zones to connect in person. And so some of them formed groups of friends for the very first time. Um, others reduced their screen time from, in some cases seven hours to three hours per day on their phones. So really, really significant changes that's, that are helping them reclaim time for what we believe matters most, which is the joyful things in life.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:35):

Yeah. Yeah. And you're really feeding that part of, um, so much of the college experience, the higher education experience isn't what you learn in school, it's what you learn at school. Mm. You know, so you guys are feeding that part of that. I love that act growth. Yeah. And I think it's very interesting that you're, um, I, I'm very hopeful. I, I listen to the area of the United States that is embracing this, and I am very hopeful in its proximity to Washington DC Hmm. When I hear, when I hear what you're saying, I'm like, mm mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, those are exactly who we need to just travel on up to….You know! and in talking about DC in February, we saw the CEOs of Meta TikTok, Snapchat, discord, and X, formerly known as Twitter. It, it cracks me up that we still have to explain what X it's kind of like the artist formerly known as Prince, you know, but, um, we saw them testify before the United States Senate Judiciary Committee. And you have a very interesting, certainly long view on where the growth of these social media companies, et cetera, have taken hold and the effects that they've had on our youth. So I'm wondering, what role of responsibility do you think big tech holds towards our youth? Like what, what, what is their responsibility at this point?

Christina Crook (20:13):

I think they absolutely should be held accountable for the harms that they have done to youth. Uh, especially knowing the design mechanisms that they put in place from the very beginning. Not to, you know, well, I am gonna point a finger directly at Stanford's persuasive design lab. I mean, right. This is where most of those UX designers were trained. That's the model that they were trained in knowingly, you know, building platforms, um, that were gonna be addictive to any human being, but particularly to a young person whose brain is not fully formed to, um, hasn't even had the chance yet to decide on their own personal likes and dislikes. Right. To form a sense of their own personal, their, their own personhood. Their own sense of their own person. Um, it's, it's interesting to me, I've been talking with a colleague in particular, a friend of mine who's a digital sociologist, she's in in Australia.

Christina Crook (21:08):

And we often joke, I often say to her, I feel like I'm a, a vanilla version of myself online. Like there's this sort of sameness that those platforms have all cultivated. You know, we talk about the Instagram face, for example. There absolutely has to be accountability for these things. And, um, it is exciting to me to see these shifts happening. Um, I as a parent, um, do really feel for parents, I think like you whose children went through that true wild, wild west of the last 10 years of social media just emerging and wading through all of that as parents and children at exactly the same time. I feel grateful that my kids were largely, um, too young to have been a part of that. Um, and I feel grateful that even their friends now were having really thoughtful conversations about the harms and the, the negative implications of, of their platforms and calling each other out.

Christina Crook (22:08):

Like, let's hang up and hang out. Right? Those types of awesome conversations that do happen, or just being like, don't be stupid. Like we're, we're hanging out. Like, just get off, you know, get off. It's just like, it's not worth it. Um, but, uh, I think obviously there's, there's a long way to go. Um, but I think, uh, what we're starting to see in terms of legal action, um, and, and obviously what, you know, the action that we saw already this month is, is exciting to see. And then I would just kind of call out researchers like Jonathan Hyde and Jean Twenge, you know, who are really leading out in these global studies of adolescent, you know, the adolescent harms, um, particularly as it relates to social media and smartphone use. And, um, yeah. Just incredibly grateful for those, those people just so publicly doing the work, um, for all of our benefit.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:58):

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I agree with you. Um, so my son, as you and I were just speaking earlier, um, offline Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, my son's 21. And I do feel like that was right in the height of, um, you know, just as everything was coming at us and it was like drinking. I mean, I, I heard an analogy of it's like trying to stop Niagara Falls with a Dixie Cup, you know? And that is something that I think the, uh, the big five there, you know, have proven again and again. They cannot be, they, they cannot be self-regulated, you know? I mean, we, we have to put a checks and balances in place. What's frightening to me is, you know, I'm speaking to you in Canada, you and I are neighbors, clearly globally, but the effects that these companies that exist in, you know, my little corner of the world in California is, is huge. It's global and it's, the responsibility is too great to just rely upon, you know, individuals to be making single based decisions.

Christina Crook (24:07):

And on that just the parental controls like that is a true full-time job. Like that is absolutely, it is an unacceptable to pass that along to parents to manage

Hillary Wilkinson (24:18):

100%, could

Christina Crook (24:19):

100% be designing platforms where the controls are already in place, and we don't, they're not even called controls. They're just redesigned. Right. Right. To support.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:29):

They just default to safety. Yeah. Rather than, rather than open the world to, you know, to the

Christina Crook (24:38):

World's most vulnerable.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:41):

Exactly. Exactly. So that, um, the topic you were talking about, about, uh, how social media has kind of changed the aesthetics for our globe as well. There's a book out that I'm, I have not yet read, but I <laugh> it's on my list, it's called Filter World, how Algorithms Flattened Culture. And, um,

Christina Crook (25:07):

I've heard of this book.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:09):

Yes. It's, he speaks very well about how there's a loss of regionality, and I think in the US we saw it when big box stores came through and all of a sudden every strip mall looked the same in America, you know, but, and there's a loss of regionality in America, and I just, uh, I think the, uh, speed of technology is happening is having that effect globally. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it is, you know, you, you don't want, you don't want places to lose what makes them special.

Christina Crook (25:44):

Oh, yeah. We, with, in our family, we actually give our kids extra money to shop in our neighborhood, you know, instead of buying stuff through Amazon because, and we know we're, we know we're gonna pay a premium, but why did we move to this neighborhood? We moved to this neighborhood for all of those individual shops. Right. If we're not taking responsibility for their success and survival Right. They're not gonna be there anymore. And that's on us. Yes. That's not on them, that is on us as consumers.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:13):

Right. Or supporting local, local farmers in agriculture, I mean shop, shop, the farm stands, shop the farmer's markets. Yeah. And it's

Christina Crook (26:21):

Healthier. It takes extra time. It takes extra time. That's just the reality. It, you know, but it's,

Hillary Wilkinson (26:27):

But it could be one of those standing dates on your social calendar. Yes. As well. And so then it's a twofer, right?

Christina Crook (26:34):

I love it. <laugh>.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:36):

Yes. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Christina Crook for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson (26:44):

Okay. I am speaking with Christina Crook, who has been called the Marie Kondo of Digital by Harper's Bazaar. Now, Christina, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one?

Christina Crook (27:57):

I do. The easiest way to get off tech is to find something better to do and lean into it.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:05):

Nice. Nice. Just like you're rowing or your cross stitch or <laugh>, fill in the blank, or going to the farmer's markets, <laugh>

Christina Crook (28:15):

Or whatever brings your kid joy. Right? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, this is true for us and for those that we have the privilege of guiding and leading in life and, and this is what I wanna do for my kids and the kids that are in my life.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:26):

Love it. So as always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to any resources discussed by visiting the show notes for this episode. Do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Christina, thank you so much for being here today. Just talking to you makes me wanna go offline, set, social dates, live a little more joyfully.

Christina Crook (28:52):

Amazing. Thank you so much for having me.