Hillary Wilkinson (00:44):

Today's guest is an expert in the relationships families have with media. As the Richard Cole imminent professor in the Hussman School of Journalism and Media at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. She studies children and media in a family context. Recently, she's focused on children's use of media devices and content for sensory regulation and how this is connected with parent-child conflict around the child's media use. So I was introduced to her work during a talk on neurodivergent children and consideration surrounding screen use, and that, along with many other things, is what I'm hoping to dive into today. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Kris Harrison.

Kris Harrison, PhD (01:39):

Thank you so much, Hillary. It's great to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:42):

Great. So, Kris, as an educator, I'm sure you understand my sort of need and want to start at a very foundational level of what we're talking about so that we can all understand sort of the language that we're using on this important topic. Can you define what is meant by that term neurodivergent?

Kris Harrison, PhD (02:09):

Yeah, absolutely. I, uh, terms like this, um, you probably won't be surprised to learn that there isn't universal agreement about what neurodivergent means. Um, but when people are talking about neurodiversity, usually what they're talking about is, um, people who experience and perceive the world differently than the majority. Um, so often neurodiversity is a sort of, um, buzzword for autism or ADHD, uh, attention, attention deficit, um, hyperactivity disorder. Um, but I've seen, you know, definitions of neurodiversity that include Tourette syndrome, dyslexia, um, sensory processing disorder, um, and any number of other, uh, ways of perceiving the world and encoding information in the world that are different than the majority. And the reason this matters is that the world we raise children in is normed for the majority of people, right? So, you know, when you get into an airplane, if you're really tall, um, your knees are on the seat in front of you because the, the measurement of the seats has been normed for the average height person. Well, the same thing is true for the sensory affordances of our spaces. Um, so, um, what is comfortable for the majority of people may not be comfortable for somebody who's neuro who is neurodivergent because they simply process, um, input from the world in a different way. Mm.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:41):

Yeah. No, I love that analogy with height because I've, I, uh, find that very applicable. I have a tall family and I understand that. Um, so, uh, what, when we're talking about the majority, that's what we hear it called neurotypical, correct?

Kris Harrison, PhD (04:01):

That's right. And I, I actually prefer to use the word neuro majority myself. 'cause it's a reminder that the world is normed for the majority of people. Um, when we say neurotypical, often it's not accurately applied, right? Because I don't know if you're neurotypical, right? I don't know who's neurotypical. We just know that the majority, um, are comfortable enough with the built environment to survive it, you know, to, to be, to sort of accommodate themselves to it, to, you know, I don't know. The the, think about the, I, this is a good example. I always think about the, uh, the typical classroom chair, right? The majority of kids are right-handed. And you remember, you know, if you're le a left ear or all the lefties, remember how they have to look for that left-handed desk that supports their arm,

Hillary Wilkinson (04:50):

Right?

Kris Harrison, PhD (04:51):

There's nothing quote unquote typical about right. Handedness, except that it's just more common. Um, and the, and that's why I think it's important, you know, instead of saying neurotypical Sure. The typical person is, is typically, typically, you know, the majority, but there's nothing that sort of, um, normal or right or good about the characteristics they have in common. They're just common.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:14):

Right? Right, right. Um,

Kris Harrison, PhD (05:16):

So, and, and that's why the built environment is structured to accommodate them. It's just that the attempt is to make as many people happy as possible, but it's gonna leave some people out.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:25):

Right? Right. So in talking about the built environment, I, I firmly believe that we're operating in both online and offline space nearly equally at this point. Yeah. And is there a way that you see neuro majority versus neurodivergent kids interacting with screens and media?

Kris Harrison, PhD (05:48):

Yes. Um, there's a lot of research showing that neurodivergent kids, and most of this is, um, on kids with, uh, autism diagnoses and or ADHD, um, interacting with media in ways that their parents find sort of remarkable. Um, for example, being very attached to their media devices, um, to the point where parents might say, oh, my child is addicted to their media. Or they might say they watch the same show over and over and over. Um, and when my students and I were trying to create a theory of media sensory curation, what we were trying to explain was, um, these sort of attachments that young, even young children can develop to media that don't really make sense to adults. Um, because on our end, you know, we think, well, I use media for information or for emotion. Like, I wanna see a tear jerker or a comedy.

Kris Harrison, PhD (06:40):

Like I use it, I use media for relationship building, um, you know, to talk with people I know. But all of those things have to be learned. And little kids, you know, by age two, can have these attachments to media that they haven't learned yet. They don't know how to make sense of the comedy and all. So how is that happening? How are they, you know, getting attached to media? Um, and one of the things we looked at in the, the research when we were doing background research to develop the theory was, um, the unavoidable, uh, the unavoidable issue that we kept coming up against with respect to neurodivergence was sensory difference. So, um, although not all neurodivergent kids have, you know, sensory experiences that differ from the majority, it's very, very common for neurodivergent kids to experience the world in a different way than other people.

Kris Harrison, PhD (07:36):

So, for example, some lights, the lights that seem normal to the typical kid might be too bright Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to a neurodivergent kid, or, you know, the, the sound of a, a loud restaurant might be just a little annoying to the average diner, but, uh, to the neurodivergent kid, it's just a cacophony and they can't stand it and they wanna, you know, go running. Um, and so we started paying attention to some of the behaviors that, uh, neurodivergent kids, but also typical kids. Yeah. Like you, you will also see this among typical kids. Um, they would be, they would have these very strong preferences for certain media content settings, peripherals environments, like, you know, absolutely needing to watch movies under a blanket, for example. Hmm mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or needing to have their, you know, sometimes it's the, the, it's not, um, sometimes it's not about reducing sensory input, but about magnifying it so they like things really loud or really frenetic, um, because it relieves, you know, sort of sensory boredom for them.

Kris Harrison, PhD (08:44):

So we started developing measurements of kids, different media behaviors, um, and adult media behaviors as well. And, uh, this, this index of sensory curation was a  way to measure how, um, I don't wanna say picky because it's not like a pickiness, but how particular, um, people were about their media options, right? They have to have a certain kind of content. They have to see it over and over again. Do they have to have it at a certain setting? Do they, um, need to have their media time? Do they get upset, you know, if their media time is interrupted? And we found that these behaviors, which we call media sensory curation, correlated really highly with non-media sensory measures. So, um, measures of just children having sort of sensory issues, they might be really hypersensitive to some kind of input, like light or sound is too, you know, bright or loud, or they might be hyposensitive to certain kinds of input where, you know, sounds that drive, you know, their parents crazy, are great for them, and they love to turn up those sounds. Um, and so, uh, it turns out that, you know, we find that, uh, a certain portion, maybe about a third of, you know, typically developing kids, um, use media for this sort of sensory curation to help kind of regulate their sensory experience in environments that may otherwise be dysregulating. But when it comes to neurodivergent kids, um, in our research mostly with, uh, autism and ADHD diagnoses, those kids, it was more like 45%. So Oh, yeah. They were really using, they really use media to help manage their sensory regulation.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:30):

No, that's really validating, I think, to so much of what I've just experienced as a parent, you know, <laugh>, and we've gotta take a little break. But next, let's explore this, uh, moderation of sensory input Further. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I am speaking with Dr. Kris Harrison, who runs the FAM lab, that's the family and media laboratory at the UNC Hussman School of Journalism and Media, where she studies media content, it's uses and effects on children and families. So, Chris, you not only have a front row seat to the latest research surrounding neurodivergent kids in media, but a personal connection as well. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Kris Harrison, PhD (11:59):

Sure. Um, you know, I, I was actually diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which used to be, you know, under the autism spectrum. Um, diagnostically in my thirties. I'm in my fifties now, and now there is no Asperger's syndrome anymore. It's just all autism spectrum disorders. Um, as you can hear, obviously, I don't have any kind of communication impairment, but I do have, uh, three teenagers, two of whom also have autism spectrum diagnoses. Um, and so I've been watching this, you know, from a sort of front row view. And, um, there's an expression among academic researchers, and that is research is me search. And we often are embarrassed to say it because sometimes, you know, what you're researching is such an obvious reflection of who you are. But as a kid, I remember feeling like the world was just, you know, a sensory hell. Because I was born at the end of this 1960s, and in the seventies, I, it was just, I wore itchy wool and I had to breathe, uh, cigarette smoke everywhere, and it just, I had two brothers and they were so loud.

Kris Harrison, PhD (13:11):

And, um, and then, you know, anytime I would say, oh, I don't like this, it itches, it's uncomfortable, you know, I got the pushback, like, oh, stop being so sensitive. Um, and I think we're living in a time now, thankfully, where people better understand that kids aren't making it up, you know? Right. They're, they're not doing this to be difficult. Right. They really are uncomfortable. And let me give you an example. Uh, this is, this is a great example of how my own imperfect parenting, you know, just because I have a connection with neurodiversity doesn't mean that I do everything right. Myself. My daughter, um, who is, uh, on the, uh, autism spectrum, she, um, is really sensitive to light. And I took her in to get her vision tested just for standard glasses. And the, um, the ophthalmologist looked at her in the dark and said, her pupils are huge.

Kris Harrison, PhD (14:08):

And I said, oh, well, it's dark in here. And she said, no, no, no. Like she just naturally has really big pupils. And I said, wait, you can have big pupils. Naturally. I thought everybody's pupils adjusted to light in the same way. And she said, no, no, no. And suddenly, I, I just thought, my God, my poor kid, like she has huge pupils. I should have been putting, you know, sunglasses on her since she was little. Like she, she structurally her eyes let in more light than the typical person's eyes. And so imagine, you know, having kids who are truly, honestly, genuinely, sincerely experiencing the world as more intense than you do, and saying to them, oh, stop it. You're just being dramatic.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:47):

Right,

Kris Harrison, PhD (14:48):

Right. I mean, that, of course, that's gonna give rise to conflict with a child because they want so badly to be believed. Sure. I think that that, that this is where, you know, the definition of sensory regulation is really helpful to people because if you look at, uh, research on, like occupational therapy, for example, sensory regulation is a really important concept there. And, um, by sensory, here's what I mean. Like, we're, we are taught when we're young that there are five senses, right? Uhhuh, <affirmative>, right. Hearing, uh, touch, taste, and smell. But there are actually a number more, um, for example, what has been called, like the vestibular sensation is your sense of balance, right? If you're dizzy, for

Hillary Wilkinson (15:32):

Sure.

Kris Harrison, PhD (15:32):

instance in your vestibular sense, and then proprio proprioceptive or proprioception Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> your sense of like where your body parts are in relation to each other. Um, and when those things are, uh, upset or, um, imba un unbalanced, it's very hard for the child to kind of settle down into a state of calm alertness that they need to be in to learn to function, to process information, to organize their day. So all humans have this sort of innate drive to kind of seek sensory regulation in our environments. How do I find a space of comfort? You can think of it as just sort of like a, a, a pleasant feeling of stasis. Like, just, I'm here, I'm alert, I'm comfortable, I'm rested, I'm paying attention. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:22):

And when you're, when you're in a state of dysregulation, your need to regulate is urgent. Yes. You know, I mean, it's, and, and it's overwhelming. Yeah. I mean, I would, I would say it becomes the primary concern. That's right.

Kris Harrison, PhD (16:42):

Everything else else.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:43):

Right. Right. So, I mean, I'm just picturing a child in a classroom who may be experiencing what you're talking about, and they're going to be unable to focus on anything else because they need that feeling to stop.

Kris Harrison, PhD (17:00):

That's right. That's exactly right. And so now imagine, you know, um, that you are in a space that is really overwhelming from a sensory perspective and some, and research on the built environment shows that, for example, restaurants are getting louder.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:19):

Sure. With all the hard, hard spaces and echoing and Yeah.

Kris Harrison, PhD (17:23):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, yes. And public spaces are, are, are getting more visually cluttered with advertising all over the place. So the world is actually different from a sensory perspective now than it used to be. And so I think about this like, you know, I'm too old to have had, you know, a, a, a tablet or a smartphone when I was a kid, but if I had had one of those things, you better believe I would've used it as a tool to help regulate my sensory input. Right. Um, so if I'm in a really loud restaurant, if I, if I can put on headphones and look at my tablet and play something like Minecraft, which has really predictable patterns, motion paths, it actually kind of pulls down my experience of sensory overload and I can stay there. So one of the things we've told, you know, parents is, especially at restaurants, we can be so judgmental of one another and of kids who are using devices at restaurants, but what if using that device is the thing that's enabling that kid to stay there and have lunch with their family

Hillary Wilkinson (18:30):

Right. And maybe disengage for a minute and to engage with their family and then go back into their safe spot or cocoon. Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, I, I couldn't agree with you more. I think we just, we all need to just learn to suspend our judgment because we don't, we do not know what other people com We, we do not sit in other people's chairs. We do not know what they are going through <laugh>.

Kris Harrison, PhD (18:58):

And I think with kids, this is especially important because adults decide where kids eat, sleep, learn, and play. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And when we outfit our home, we do it with an eye toward our own sensory experience. What is gonna make us comfortable. And a lot of times that also makes our kids comfortable, but it doesn't always. And so they, they are from day one, they are always having to kind of, you know, find spaces and places and times and, and, um, behaviors that they can do to kind of maintain regulation. And if we can understand what they need, and this is gonna differ, you know, by child for sure. Like my two of my kids are twins, the two with the autism spectrum diagnoses, and I swear he is hyposensitive where she is hypersensitive and she's hype hyposensitive or he's hypersensitive, they're very different people. So if you can learn what helps each of them find that kind of sensory regulation, then what you can learn to do with your, your children is build, uh, spaces, even if it's just like a corner, a safe little corner, but build spaces and rituals that enable them to reach a state of sensory regulation without having to resort to screens.

Hillary Wilkinson (20:21):

Yes. And without having to resort to massive emotional outbursts to be heard. Yes. 'cause you can give them the language that they need to communicate their own needs and be respected.

Kris Harrison, PhD (20:37):

That's right. And then,

Hillary Wilkinson (20:38):

So you're really empowering kids by doing that.

Kris Harrison, PhD (20:42):

Well, the, the goal is, um, you know, we, we simply don't, like you said, giving them the language. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we have a very poultry sensory vocabulary in our culture. Right. Like, a lot of people will be like, oh, what's proprioception? Right, right. Or what's the vestibular sense? And then of course, when you explain it, they say, oh yeah, I get that. But we just don't talk about it. And so you would never expect somebody to have that level of self-awareness to say, you know what, mom, I don't like the proprioceptive input here. <laugh> or Mom, I really need some proprioceptive input. Can we find some monkey bars for me to climb? Um, they don't know how to articulate that. And so they just, it, something feels good or it doesn't feel good. And what we found in some of our research was with some of these kids when their parents, you know, say you have to get off the screen right now, um, if, if that child is pretty regulated and comfortable and has other spaces where they can be regulated and comfortable, it's not a big deal. But if the child, if this is the only space that that child can find some kind of comfort, calmness, and regulation, and the parent now says, you have to leave that and come back into, you know, this busy dinner party that we're hosting, and you have to come in the kitchen and let relatives hug you and do all that stuff, sometimes they lose their temper because they're sure they're being asked to move into a state that for them might actually be painful.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:14):

Right. Right. So, and this is a huge challenge that I think, I think parents of both neuro majority and neurodivergent children have. Yeah. But, um, I think because of all the things that we've just talked about, the parents of neurodivergent kids are often, you know, raising their hands first at, at presentations and healthy screen habits, events, <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh> asking, asking for this type of like tool set of how, how can we deal with the transitioning off of a screen? Do you have any, any, you know, suggestions on how to reduce that conflict?

Kris Harrison, PhD (22:58):

We, so I struggle with the same thing in my own home. You know, knowing this, you know, at a theoretical level and applying it at a practical personal level are two different things. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:08):

<laugh> totally…Well, I can uh, I can tell you how to eat a healthy diet all day long and, you know, just don't follow me around and see what I actually put in my mouth. So there you go. <laugh>.

Kris Harrison, PhD (23:18):

I think the, I actually think the food analogy is a really, really good one because, um, media are an inevitable part of daily life now. Just like food is an inevitable part of daily life. And if you're looking for a way to have this sort of balance, um, that's really what regulation means, right? Is balance. And so part of it is, uh, if, if we approach this with, um, not so much with an authoritarian perspective of I am the parent, and you must get off now, but more of a, um, uh, more of the perspective this of the sort of, or authoritative teacher with your children. What you're teaching them to do is, um, you're trying to teach them another sense that's been called interoception. So interoception, um, is our awareness of what our bodies need at any given moment, um, of how our bodies are feeling.

Kris Harrison, PhD (24:10):

So intercept awareness with eating, for example, is asking, checking in with yourself to ask, am I really hungry right now? Or am I just bored? Or am I really hungry or am I thirsty? Or am I tired? Do I just need to go to bed? Something similar goes on. Um, or we need to be doing something similar, I think, with media, right? So, Hey honey, you know, you've got some homework to do. We talked about, you know, how you can sort of structure your days to do a little homework every night. Uh, what time tonight do you think you wanna be working on that homework? And obviously this gets a little easier as they're older and they can Sure, sure. They have some buy-in, right? Like they do wanna do well in school, or they want to, they have goals they wanna meet, they don't wanna spend their whole life in front of a screen.

Kris Harrison, PhD (25:00):

Um, and then you can say, well, you know, how can we set that up? Like, what would be a comfortable homework space for you? Um, and then, you know, when it's time for them to get off, we give them the little warning, um, you know, okay, about 10 minutes, you know, you've got, or we set an alarm for them or whatever's gonna help them. But ultimately we keep bringing it back around to, oh, honey, remember this is what you wanted. You wanted to do this. Remember we set up this space and you wanted to do it. And kind of teaching them to go, okay, I guess I've had enough of this now, now I'm gonna do this other thing that's gonna meet a goal of mine. But it, it's always about their desire to meet their goals. Um, and they're allowed to enjoy themselves a little.

Kris Harrison, PhD (25:46):

Yeah. And with some screen time. But you know, just like you don't let them eat cake all the time, I am not suggesting that you let them spend all day on screens. And I've actually talked to some autistic adults who've said things like, how do you handle the guilt? And I said, what guilt? And they said that the feeling of guilt over spending my entire youth in front of screens. And I said, well, what were your other options? And they didn't have other places where they felt safe and comfortable and regulated. So if they don't have those other options, it, they're gonna come back to screens because they're able to choose the content that, that, you know, regulates their sensory input. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, to a level that's comfortable. They're gonna be able to choose the environment. Like you can modify screen media in so many different ways to support your regulation, but you can't do that easily to your non-media environment. You have to actually put in the work to kind of structure non-media environments and rituals to be gratifying in a sensory way on their own without the screens.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:52):

Yeah. And I think that, uh, I think it's gonna take probably a little bit of experimentation patience by, you know, a parents are gonna need to be able to, uh, hopefully live through the discomfort of finding out what works. Because finding out what works I is going to hold hands with finding out what doesn't work. <laugh>.

Kris Harrison, PhD (27:20):

That's exactly right. I mean, I, I'm definitely not, I'm definitely not saying like, oh, I have a magic potion for this. Right. But pay attention to your kid from a sensory perspective and say, okay, what is this kid seeking? Um, and I'll give you an example. My, my daughter, when she was about three or four, she used to pull herself, try to pull herself up on the bar, the towel bar in the bathroom, like trying to do pull-ups on the towel bar. And I, you know, I had learned recently about proprioception. I thought, this kid really needs proprioceptive input, so, and vestibular, because she loved to spin. So we ended up, now of course, you have to have the space to be able to do this, which I know is not available to everybody. But we, we installed a hook in our living room and hung like a trapeze bar from it, and then she could pull up on it, swing on it, spin on it, and that helped her, you know, meet that need for vestibular and proprioceptive input without, you know, having to run around with a tablet and the music 

Kris Harrison, PhD (28:24):

Really loud, which is what she was doing before. And it was driving everybody crazy. Um, but you know, if you have access to outdoors, you know, outside used to be that space where pretty much everybody could find a place that would either be calm and quiet or loud and exciting. 

Hillary Wilkinson (28:40):

Mm-Hmm.<affirmative>.

Kris Harrison, PhD (28:40):

And there are a lot of limits on where and when kids can go outside now. And so for those reasons that they're also turning to screens.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:49):

Yeah. 

Kris Harrison, PhD (28:50):

We just need to work with them to figure out what non-screen options are alternatives. And that, that's really what I come down to is it's not that screens are all bad, but your kid is gonna be using screens a lot if they don't feel they have any other alternative to find a, you know, a space of sort of calm alertness that comes from sensory regulation. 

Hillary Wilkinson (29:15):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Uh, so much to digest. So when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Chris Harrison for her Healthy Screen Habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:

We're back. I'm talking with Dr. Kris Harrison about Neurodivergent Kids and Screen Habits. Now, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Kris, do you have one?

Kris Harrison, PhD (30:20):

Yes. I would say my healthy screen habit is to work with your child to identify and or construct spaces and rituals and activities that help that child reach a state of sensory regulation without screens. This doesn't mean that they're gonna stop using screens, but it does mean that they'll have alternatives so that the screen won't be the default place to go to feel calm and alert and centered.

Hillary Wilkinson (30:52):

Excellent. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show by going to healthy screen habits.org., click the podcast button and scroll down to find this episode. Kris, thank you so much for taking the time to share a bit of yourself, your story, your research, and mostly thank you for lending your voice to helping all of us understand how to make the world just a softer place for, for all developing minds.

Kris Harrison, PhD (31:24):

Well, thank you so much for having me, Hillary. It was fun.