Hillary Wilkinson: (00:08)

Okay, so here's something I'm about to admit. I don't subscribe to a huge number of podcasts. I feel like I'm letting you read my notes app when I'm saying this. So hear me out. The reason why I don't subscribe to a huge number of podcasts is because I am constantly genre hopping and pursuing various rabbit holes through which to dive. And that being said, on the top of my subscribed podcast feed is Under the Influence with Jo Piazza. Jo is a bestselling author, journalist, and her take on how social media influences so much of our lives and how the commodification of every single aspect of our lives is driving everyone, but mostly women and mothers, a little insane is hilarious, and frankly a little horrifying. So Jo is taking a minute away from her massively exciting book launch of The Sicilian Inheritance to chat about screens, social media, and the never ending task of being a mom. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for chatting with me, Jo.

Jo Piazza: (01:29)

I'm so excited to be here. And that was a great introduction. I just want you to follow me around to places and be like, let me tell you about Jo, and I can just nod and be like, thank you. Thank you for saying it. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:40)

Absolutely. I'd love to. 

Jo Piazza: (01:41)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's so funny, I think about this a lot because I started Under the Influence four years ago, and the goal of the podcast was really to do a deep dive on mom influencers, and that was it. I'm like, who are these women? How did this happen? And like, what does it mean for our lives? This'll be eight episodes I'm in, I'm out , and then I'll forget about it and move on to something else. And now, four years later, I think that social media, social media is media now. It's just, it's just media. Um, and it has such a massive impact on almost every aspect of our lives that I now do two episodes a week and think about this all the time. So we never know where life is gonna lead us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:24)

So when I started following Under the Influence, you kind of had me at Hello…

Jo Piazza: (02:49)

Oh, . I love that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:50)

No, no, because of your, you, you kind of peeled back the veil for me. Mm-Hmm. on these Insta Perfect lives. Like, I don't know why, but it had never occurred to me how people were getting pictures of their whole family. Mm-Hmm. With like the perfectly tousled hair in matching pajamas in bed or, you know, in the back of a vintage pickup truck for, you know, it never occurred to me that like, how are these people getting pictures of themselves with their children? Yeah. You and you were the one that peeled back the veil for me on Oh, this is a business, this Mm-Hmm. . This is a brand and there's a particular, um, feed, if you will Yeah. That you mentioned kind of a bit, um, just because there's this interesting dialogue ongoing with you with Trad Wives, which stands for Traditional Wife and which is different than a Stay-At-Home Mom

Jo Piazza: (03:58)

Different than a stay-at-Home Mom. Yep. You are

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:00)

Also very clear in that. Can you break that down just so just so people understand?

Jo Piazza: (04:06)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been writing a lot about trad wives lately because I write, and I talk a lot about trends on social media, and this is a trend for brands on social media. And I like to say that a lot because I don't want people to ever think that I am attacking a fellow mother or a woman. Make no mistake, if you are a person with hundreds of thousands, if not millions of followers on social media and you are working with, with brands to sell things, you yourself are a media brand. And so, like, I think therefore, the things that you are doing and selling as a media brand can be open to the same kind of scrutiny as say, Nike. So we should be thinking about these, these properties as brands. And something that's been happening in a lot of the mom influencer accounts lately is #Tradwives. And it's a sort of false nostalgia for a 1950s that never existed where women are very submissive to their husband, where they are solely focused on their roles in the home and, but mostly have no agency over their lives. That's the big thing. It's not a Stay-At-Home Mom, a Stay-At-Home Mom is working her ass off. She is working in the home. She is the CEO of her family. This has nothing to do with that. It's a very specific type of false nostalgia for female submission, lack of agency, lack of control over your finances and your life. And it's also bullshit! So we're seeing all these accounts that promote this because I think it does well with the Instagram algorithm, but these women are making money off telling you to not make money, make money.

Jo Piazza: (05:57)

And so the, the irony is so intense, and I do think that these accounts should be massively challenged. One of those is Ballerina Farm. The brand has more than 8 million followers. They are a Utah family that is very rich because the husband is the heir to the one of the founders of JetBlue. And yet they cosplay poverty on this farm as if they live in like Willy Wonka's, um, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory's grandparents, like house with a single bed for everyone to be sleeping in, um, while they're selling you things like $89 sourdough starters or $49 bags of flour. Um, because that is their brand. Their brand is like, we're back to the earth and you know, we're independent people, you know, we're we're just like you. And I'm like, they're, you're nothing like that, like us. And so we should be pulling back the curtain on who that brand is, because one of the ways that social media is so nefarious is that we genuinely think that we're getting a window into people's actual lives when really we're just seeing what they wanna show us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:10)

Right. Right.

Jo Piazza: (07:11)

And they're not people. That's the other thing. Like I I, I hesitate sometimes to talk about the Ballerina Farm account because I get a lot of anger coming at me being like, why are you so mean to this nice young Christian farmer lady? And I'm like, I'm, I could care less. I don't know her, but her brand has the influence over 8 million people, and that's a lot of power. And so we should talk about what they do.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:40)

Yeah. No, and there are rules within the business world of advertising about false advertising.

Jo Piazza: (07:49)

About false advertising. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:51)

I understand your frustration with, um, people who make the work of motherhood. Look, like, oh, it was just something I just thought of. It was just easy. Yeah. It was just easy.

Jo Piazza: (08:09)

And I just, I'm just barefoot wearing white all the time and, right. Yeah. And I don't, I do think, I genuinely believe that, uh, Instagram has flattened the work of motherhood in a lot of ways. It has flattened how we view the labor of motherhood. It makes it look like it is pretty and easy and joyous all of the time, which, and when things are viewed that way, we don't think that we need to value them because it makes it look like it's just like we're, we're just playing. We're just playing on this farm with our chickens and our babies all the time. And I love my freaking kids. I've got three of them, all under the age of six. But it is work every day, and there are moments of joy in it. And there are also moments that where it is a hellscape and Instagram has completely flattened that labor. Um, and the view of the labor.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:59)

Right.  Now, I do have to say what I kind of enjoy, and maybe it's just my sense of humor, but I do enjoy, there are some like parody accounts.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:09)

Where they're like, they start off with, oh, my, my children wanted cereal today, so I, and they lead you through like a, you know, six hour process of baking cereal that basically is the same stuff that you could quite honestly pour out of a box. And, you know, and they look like they're having this, you know, euphoric experience while they're, while they're finally eating their finished product. But, Mm-Hmm. that those I I find kind of funny. I, like I said, ,

Jo Piazza: (09:40)

I do. No, I find all of the parody accounts funny. I find I find the satire, and there's a lot of things that I, I do enjoy about social media. The thing is, I genuinely believe that the bad outweighs the good at this point. Mm-Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:54)

Um, oh, I, you will not get an argument from me. Absolutely.

Jo Piazza: (10:00)

With social media and with phones and screens in general. I think the bad just outweighs the good. There's some nice things on there. I get a laugh once in a while. I wish that these things didn't exist in our life.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:11)

Right, right. And so that kind of like goes into, um, so like I said, you started with kind of, you started Under the Influence with this fascination of Instagram parenting, basically. Yeah. And you yourself experimented with, how do I do this? How do I make a buck out of parenting? You know? Yeah.

Jo Piazza: (10:39)

A hundred percent.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:39)

And I, that I was, I was fascinated to follow your journey through that. And then there was kind of a turning point for you because it was interesting, 'cause for me, because I swim in the digital wellness pond. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I, I was like, “oh gosh. Like, oh, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?” And then you kind of have this growth point where you're kind of like, wait a minute, kids are not content. What is happening? And this is A. really hard work. Mm-Hmm. , and B. nobody's happy while in my house while I'm doing it. And I'm gonna add a C. Like, you had some moments. I feel this is so weird. Like, to be very clear, Jo and I have never met, but this is a clear example.

Jo Piazza: (11:35)

But now we know each other, now we fully know each other. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:37)

Yeah. So, which is the beauty of social media, but also an element of that parasocial relationship that develops with these accounts. Yeah. That we feel like we know these people. And you had moments at like the park with your child. Can you talk about?

Jo Piazza: (11:57)

Yeah, yeah. Totally. Totally. It's, um, I mean, I'm in such a weird place with social media because I've been a journalist my whole life. And now I'm a novelist. I write books and my job is to sell you books. And so I've got this new one, Sicilian Inheritance, it's out. We're coming out like right now, immediately, like, I'm literally giving birth to a book as we speak. Uh, and in order to sell those books, I have to be on social media. It's like really the only way to get in front of readers at this point. Uh, four years ago when I was playing around with this experiment, I was like, oh, okay, well if I wanna try to understand this, and also, hey, who doesn't want money? I'll try to be a mom influencer and maybe it will like, build my brand for the books.

Jo Piazza: (12:42)

Maybe it's some easy money. And I played around with it, with like, you know, getting the right shoes, the right water shoes to put on my kid and take pictures of them. And you get the affiliate links. And first off, it was like, so much work. I mean, I've, again, I've built entire websites and magazines and like, this was so much work. Anyone that just thinks an influencer is putting up a picture, they are wrong. Like, to be good at this, like, it is a full-time job. Granted, it's a full-time job you can do while you're watching your children. Um, which is a nice thing in a world that hates women in the workplace. So I'm trying this, I don't like it. My kids hate it. Um, I hired a photographer to take a week's worth of content of us for the, the page.

Jo Piazza: (13:27)

Uh, we did the matching jammies things from Hannah Anderson. And again, this is four years ago, different world, like the same, but also like, it feels cute now. And, uh, my, and like everyone was miserable. Everyone is crying. My, my husband is like, I hate this. I'm like, starting to hate you. And also my kids didn't wanna do it. They didn't wanna be content. And like, that was the moment that I was like, okay, you don't have to be content. And that was even before I did the deep dive and how dangerous it is to put out certain pictures and images of your children out there. But as my account has grown, and not just from that, that one experiment, but because I do share a lot of my life on social media as an author, as I grow my author brand, people recognize my kids on the playground.

Jo Piazza: (14:14)

And it can get weird. It can get real weird. There was one woman who wanted to be mom friends with me, and so she posted weird shit about my kids on Facebook. Um, and this can happen to anyone. Um, it's like classic single white female. Right. But at the same time, it made me realize, and lots of other things too, I don't want the whole world to know everything about my children. I still, I wiped them off of my pages, like about 90% of them. I usually don't put them on the grid. I will share them in stories sometimes, because so much of what I talk about as a journalist is also being a mom. And I think it's important to talk about that part of my life, but I would never, I love your rule that you have on Healthy Screen Habits where you're like, if you wouldn't send this to grandma, don't post it. And my rule is, if you wouldn't just show this picture or this video to the creepiest guy in Starbucks, then don't post it. So if you just, if like you wouldn't just like, be like, Hey, creepy dude in the corner talking to yourself. Do you wanna see this picture of my kid in the bath? If you wouldn't show him, don't put it on social media. 'cause you're showing him.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:23)

I totally agree. And that kind of goes into the line of thinking that, uh, we have also where the internet is a place. Mm-Hmm. Like, people think of the internet as like a thing that's kind of over here. And actually no, the internet is a place. So if you, like you said, if you wouldn't be bathing your child in the middle of, you know, Hollywood and Vine . Yeah. Why Yeah. Why are you putting it out there? And there are other ways people, some people use the, um, you know, they, they will comment and say, oh, but that's how my family stays in touch. That's fine. Yeah. Create a private only account. Like you, you can

Jo Piazza: (16:08)

Have a private account, you can have a private account, um, you can have a WhatsApp. There's Margaret Polos. There's lots. And I thought about that before too, you know, and in the beginning that was, it was like, Ugh, this is so much easier than texting both grandmas all the things all the time. Like, you know, the Facebook and everything. And it was still a public square then, but it's so much bigger now. We need, we really do need to think about it as, as a place. And there's other, there's so many other ways to stay in touch now,

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:34)

Right. 

Jo Piazza: (16:35)

Nope. And I, I don't use social media like, as a consumer. And that's, I was just on a road trip in Sicily, uh, two weeks ago. 'cause I, in addition to writing The Sicilian Inheritance, the novel, which is loosely based on my great-great grandmother's murder, I decided to solve the murder in real life in a true crime podcast. 'cause I'm a psychopath. So I went back to Sicily and my best girlfriend was there, and she is an attorney who consumes, just consumes social media, like for fun. And she's so mad at me. She's like, you never like my posts. Like, you don't know what's going on in my kids' lives. Like, I feel really like disconnected. And I was like, I don't go on and scroll. I go on and post because I am wanna talk about the podcast, or I wanna talk about the book. Or I'm answering questions. Like I, it's almost like an inbox, uh, in a way from readers or from from media people. Um, I'm like, I never see you. And it's not 'cause I don't choose to or I don't want to, but I'm so burnt out by the time I finish doing the work things, I have to put it away.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:40)

Right. Right. And it, it's kind of one of those things where here you're a fully grown woman with a fully formed identity, husband, three kids, clearly a booming career. And you recognize that burnout feeling. But I mean, and that's where I agree wholeheartedly with the surgeon general when he says we cannot continue to place 13 year olds in this lane. It is, you're putting tweens and children up against the best programmers in the country. Mm-Hmm. . And it is not a fair fight. 

Jo Piazza: (18:18)

Its not a fair fight. Yeah. No, it's not. It's not. I was putting my 6-year-old to bed the other night, and we were having one of our deep discussions before bed. And this one weirdly, was about cigarettes. I think he saw people smoking in a movie that we were watching, probably Grease. They love Grease in my house. Um, speaking of screen habits, my kids watch really inappropriate movie musicals. Uh, and he, he's like, what are cigarettes? Like, why do people smoke? And I was like, oh my God, let me tell you, when I was growing up, I lived in a house of smoke. I'm like, my parents both smoked a pack of cigarettes a day, and I just like lived in a world of smoke. And I'm like, and people used to smoke on airplanes. They like flew in like a plane of smoke. And he's like, this is crazy. And I'm like, like, I know. Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:01)

It was.

Jo Piazza: (19:02)

And um, it was, when you think about it like that, but it was so normal my whole childhood, right? Mm-Hmm. . I'm like, yeah, I just lived in a house that was filled with smoke all the time, as if it were on fire. Um, and I think about that with, with screens and, and social media. Like, we will look back if we make the right choices and be like, why do we have this thing in our hands? Why are we staring at a screen when we could be looking out into the real world? Like, why did we choose to make that completely irrational, weird choice and think that it was okay for our kids?

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:31)

And the pushback, the pushback is real. And the exciting part is that it's happening. Like, I I am further down the parenting path than you. I'm almost like opposite end of the spectrum. I have a 21-year-old and a 17-year-old.

Jo Piazza: (19:48)

Oh my gosh. You're, yeah. Wow. Like I, that doesn't even, that's not even real to me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:52)

I know. I know. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:49)

That being said, let's go back a little bit. I listened to, like I said, I, I mean, I listen to your voice all the time while I'm going through my day. And one of the, uh, former guests you had, you guys were talking about brain development and young children. And the, um, I was, it was very funny because I had just that week spoken with the nation's leading pediatric neuroscientist on brain development and screen use. And I don't know that accurate information was given to you. So I would like to clarify this. 

Jo Piazza: (21:37)

Please do, please do. When I would like, I would like you to educate me right now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:40)

Yes. When, uh, the specific question was asked was, “Are our children in danger from the overuse of screens?” Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And this person reassured you that in a very, I mean, I am not faulting anyone. This is just, you know, we know what we know and we don't what we don't. And I happen to have a little more information because of what I do and the people I talk to. Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, the, the question was in regards to brain health with Mm-Hmm. , the very young and screen overuse. And, uh, there is FMRI data that shows change in brain growth and development. Mm. With the overuse of screens within the brain there are two types of matter. There's gray matter and there's white matter. Mm-Hmm. This is brain science according to Hillary here, which is very going to be very basic. Okay. So gray matter, I think of as content areas. Okay? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm

Jo Piazza: (22:50)

Mm-Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:51)

and white matter is kind of the tracks that run between them. Okay. So they're the highways. And what has been found is with the overuse of screens in the very young, is a thinning of the white matter. 

Jo Piazza: (23:09)

Oh, that's no good. We don't want that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:10)

Yeah. And under development of the white matter. Now interestingly, as we age, this also happens. Mm-Hmm. . So when you stretch that out and apply it,  if you are starting with a thinning white matter area and knowing that a natural progression of age is a thinning of the white matter, we are going to end up in, I mean, we are setting our children up for a less than ideal situation in aging long term. 

Jo Piazza: (23:45)

It's not good. It's not good. And it's so funny to, I mean, none of this is funny, but, uh, because we do all of these things to set our children up for the right things. Right. It's like, okay, I'm gonna take all the prenatal vitamins. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna drink, I'm not gonna smoke while I'm pregnant. And then yet Yeah, we do, I think we do ignore a lot of things when it comes, comes to screens. Here's my question about that. And some people have mentioned this to me, and I think this is all the Wild West too. Like, I think that we're like still learning constantly about this. I mean, much in the way that we thought it was okay for children just to live in a house filled with smoke for so long. Um, are different screens different? 

Hillary Wilkinson:

Yes.

Jo Piazza: (24:26)

Like, is it like, oh, okay. What we, we do, we've been watching a lot of movies together lately, like on, we have a big projector screen. Um, and so we've been doing family movies and I love that because I'm like, wow, this is a really great way. Like, The Parent Trap,  just really helped me explain divorce to my kids in a really brilliant way. 'cause her friends' parents are getting divorced. Uh, and so I've really been enjoying that. But is it different when you just kind of park them in front of a screen, which we also do in the car? I will tell you. Like, I mean, that, that's how I get through car rides.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:55)

Okay. So short answer. Yes. . Okay. It's different. Great. And what you're doing with when, what you're doing when you're having family movie night or when you're, you know, co it's called co-viewing. Yes.

Jo Piazza: (25:07)

Co-viewing,

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:08)

Which means that Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. When you're co-viewing movies or when you're, particularly when you're using that as a launch pad to then have further discussion and apply it to real life. Mm-Hmm. that is A++  type of screen habits parenting. Okay. Yeah.

Jo Piazza: (25:23)

Oh, good. Good. You're I love that. I love, I love it. I do.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:27)

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.  The co-viewing that, that is, that is the, the number one recommended way of Yeah. Um, of viewing scr of using screens. What you don't wanna do is, um, well, I, I mean, it's, it's hard 'cause I don't, I never wanna come from a place of… 

Jo Piazza: (26:26)

You never wanna shame. No, totally. Get it. Get it. Exactly. But I like to hear it. I do. Because also there's, I, there are habits I will change and there's habits I won't change. Like we, it's a three and a half hour drive to get to the Catskills, uh, while like, you know, where we go once a month. My kids are there now. Uh, and I will never not give them a screen to watch then no matter what you tell me,

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:48)

But here's the, you tell me, here's the thing is that is planned. It is specific. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And they know that that's how they, I I won't fly across country without looking at a screen. I mean, it's, to me it's that if there's a parallel thing, the content in what they're viewing is something you might wanna look at.

Jo Piazza: (27:11)

Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:12)

And going back to that brain development side of things, you don't want to be watching the, the really quick change screen views and everything that's, um, triggering a lot of the dopamine. Yeah. So dopamine's a neurotransmitter. We have over, we have a bajillion, um, different kinds of neurotransmitters in our body. But that being said, dopamine is the one that controls, that is most, attributed to causing addiction cycles. Mm mm-Hmm. . And it's, it's found within the pleasure pathways of the brain. Yeah. And what's found is if the screen use that your child is participating in via gaming, I mean, gaming is all about triggering the dopamine drip. Yeah. I kind of picture it like an IV drip.

Jo Piazza: (28:06)

We're not, we're not not at gaming yet. But, so, which is why I, like, there's things that I'd like to prepare myself for. Right, sure. Because we're not at, we're not at gaming yet. We're not at social media yet. I've drawn the line at YouTube pretty strongly, like my, we call it poop tube in our house, because poop is never not funny. And I'm like, this is just crap. It's mostly crap. Well, once in a while, we can find a really great video of this NASA scientist building a squirrel maze, which is a treasure, but then you will get addicted and fall into a rabbit hole of poop. Right.  And, and, and they say that out loud. And I was like, yeah. I'm like, I appreciate this. Tell your friends, share the knowledge.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:43)

Yeah. Yeah. And, and also what you're doing is you're actually helping build resilience against just this like, like dopamine overfeed. Mm-Hmm. where, the brain will re-regulate and reset to needing that constant dopamine and Yeah. It to just feel Okay. It's, I mean, it's a true, that's, that's what addiction is, right? It's like that's

Jo Piazza: (29:12)

What addiction is. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:12)

You need the substance in order to function at a normal state. Mm-Hmm. the challenge being is that without your natural chemical, that interprets pleasure. If you cannot trigger that without hyperstimulation, the crash is more severe and the depressive state incurs. So when you're pulling a kid off of a screen, off of a, off of, you know, a screen-based addiction, and, you know, it's very tricky to use that. I, I we prefer to say screen overuse because to throw the word addiction at, you know, at any age person, if they're not self-identifying is A, it's useless. Yeah. But B. I mean, it's that, that's a really big word. 

Jo Piazza: (29:57)

It's a big word with, like, that also has a lot of stigma attached to it,

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:09)

But Absolutely.

Jo Piazza: (30:11)

So I, I feel that because also word choice is so important, but I will say, like, I, when I, when I compare it to like drinking or cigarettes, it's like the only time I can see people kind of have a breakthrough with it. Like, when I say, I'm like, no, it's a, it's an addiction because it's programmed that way. So I almost like, I like to use the harsher word with it, but I, I feel like you can't if you're like, trying to impact policy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:37)

Right, right. I think it's one of those, you know, we have different languages for different,

Jo Piazza: (30:42)

We have different language for different things for different

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:44)

Circles. Exactly. And maybe at the, at the, you know, at the park or at the play date, we can use the big, the big A addiction word. 

Jo Piazza: (30:53)

The big A. The big A. Yeah. Well, we can say the big  A privately, but not for  open use.

One of the things that I worry about is, you know, before I became a parent, I had all these, these ideas of what I would be like as a parent. And those, all those all went out the freaking window. So what one of the things I am curious about is as we approach the world of social media, and I have, because I had my kids when I was a little bit older, uh, I have friends with kids that are just approaching like 11 and 12 and like, they're just getting their first Instagram accounts and those things. My hope is that these companies die before my children, um, become that age. I'm like, I just hope they're gone. Is my, is my plan, uh, for parenting. But I know I can't think that. So I how do you talk to parents about, you know, you don't want your kid to feel terribly left out if all of these other kids are doing it. I compare it to like the one kid who was never allowed to come to the mall with us, and that kid had no friends when we were in junior high. Sure. 'cause their parents were like, you can't hang out at the mall. And we're like, okay. Sorry. That's the only place we go.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:12)

Right, right. Okay. And I can only speak from experience. Yeah. Because I, I was the mean mom. Okay. You were

Jo Piazza: (32:19)

The mean mom. Okay, great. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:21)

So here's the thing. What you know about social media supersedes what your kids want. Mm-Hmm. , you know, and you know what, maybe your 10-year-old is really intrigued with the wine you're drinking also. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, I mean, and different families, different cultures, all of that aside, you are probably not gonna be pouring a full glass of wine every night Mm-Hmm. and sticking it in front of them. And, you know, with social media, the equivalent would be, you know, serving it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Yep. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. But, um, but I understand the concern about, about social connection because I mean, we are wired physically for social connection seeking Mm-Hmm at  that developmental stage. What I can tell you is that social media actually undermines those connections. Mm-Hmm. It is far more important for you to provide lots of experiences and ways for kids to connect with offline activities, whether that's through athletics, providing a screen free adventure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:40)

You know, I mean, when you get what, this is why we have to sort of normalize this language with, with our friends. Not unlike if your kid was coming to my house, I would say are, you know, do you guys have any allergies? Any dietary restrictions I need to know about? I need to be that open with just, “oh, just so you know, we're a screen-free house. I collect cell phones. If you or we park cell phones, your child can have access to their cell phone to use it for a communication tool if needed.”

Jo Piazza: (34:23)

 The same way parents did forever. Like, you know, just

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:25)

Forever

Jo Piazza: (34:27)

You can find me. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:29)

Right. Yeah. Right. Um, and, and providing a lot of different experiences for kids to connect one-on-one in, in offline type activities will actually insulate your child from the effects of social media greatly. And it gives them tools to bounce back from, you know, having your feelings hurt or, I, I mean, when we are relying on social media as our only form of connection, chances are your phone is going to be the tool that you're also relying on for when you're feeling down, you're going to, you're gonna be seeking that little dopamine hit that I was talking about to make you feel better. Right? Mm-Hmm. Well, when the thing that you're searching for to make you feel better has become the thing of greatest pain, you are now entering that land of betrayal. Which betrayal when you rank emotions is, you know, the top of the list as, as far as, um, impact.

Hillary Wilkinson: (35:39)

So it's, um, I, I think you just, you stand strong, recognize that social media was never developed for children and even teens. It was developed for young adults. Mm-Hmm. . And so many of the platforms rely on the age 13 and parents misinterpret that as a rating, like what we would see in TV or movies where we've got like PG 13. So parents quite understandably think that 13 is a rating. The age 13 goes back to in 1998, the Children's Online Privacy and Protection Act was passed. I want you to remember what our online world looked like in 1998. It was nothing!

Jo Piazza: (36:53)

Nice. It was really nice. I wanna set all of my books in 1998 because it's Pre- smartphone. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:59)

There you go. 

Jo Piazza: (37:00)

Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, you could maybe Netscape something, but you're not gonna find a real answer. Exactly. And it's gonna take you 25 minutes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:06)

Exactly. And the graphics will be so horrible. You have no incentive to stay on!

Jo Piazza: (37:11)

On. So. You don't wanna stay on here. No, you don't. Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:15)

So that is, that is, you were talking about working on policy, and that is a policy that is currently looking to be updated with the short name for that act is called COPPA. And they're working on COPPA 2.0 but it was set to legally, companies cannot collect data from children under the age of 13.

Jo Piazza: (37:41)

And nor should they, nor should

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:42)

They. Exactly. Exactly. But that is the reason for 13. It's

Jo Piazza: (37:47)

Oh, and it's not just because, oh, they're fine now.

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:51)

No, it's not a developmental rating. Mm-Hmm. . But understandably people misinterpret it. So the developmental rating more and more is age 16 for social media. And so, and that's a hard fight. I can tell you I have, I have been there. 

I mean, um, the, the current recommendations at Healthy Screen Habits is to delay smartphone acquisition until, until 13 ish. Okay. So delay the, it's, we follow the wait until eighth, meaning wait until eighth grade, meaning after eighth grade. Mm-Hmm. . Because guess what? All that drama around junior high around what we now call middle school, I'm totally dating myself. I'm calling it junior high. But guess what? All of that swirl happens for a reason. We are supposed to be going through all of those just really difficult social interactions, learning how to read the, I mean, the, they're experimenting with humor. They've got different forms, you know, like, oh, if I'm sarcastic, how does this feel?

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:06)

Oh, if I am, you know, self-deprecating, what is this? Like I, and so you see this, that's why middle schoolers are, every time you see them, you don't know who you're gonna get. And that's why it makes it tricky, but recognize that it's actually a very beautiful transformation that's happening. It's like the gooey part of the chrysalis when the, the butterfly, you know, the caterpillar goes along and then he makes this chrysalis. And then there's this whole mushy stage . That's, that's what's happening in middle school. It's supposed to be mushy. Yeah. And when we deprive our kids of the goo, when we take them out and, and stick a screen in front of them, the butterfly, that hatches is not gonna be as well formed.

Jo Piazza: (39:53)

It's a wonky butterfly. We're making wonky butterflies. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:58)

Exactly.

Jo Piazza: (39:59)

I swear to God, the things that are coming outta my mouth, I am just like closer to the cancel train every day. Every day..

Hillary Wilkinson: (40:05)

Nope! Not at all. .

Jo Piazza: (40:07)

And I just don't care. I just don't, I've like to reach this point where like, don't care.

Hillary Wilkinson:

We have to take a short break, but when we come back, we are going to talk about a healthy screen habit. You are going to love.

Jo Piazza: (41:17)

Yay.

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Ad break - 988

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Hillary Wilkinson: (41:23)

I'm speaking with Joe Piazza, the host of the podcast, Under the Influence,  one that I recommend you check out immediately, like right after this!  Just, just go right over and check it out. And now, Joe, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners put into practice in their own home. But today, today I'm doing something different. Today, you don't know this. Today, I'm going to recommend that each listener plan an Italian adventure.

Jo Piazza: (42:03)

Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:04)

Yes,

Jo Piazza: (42:04)

You should. Yeah, you should. Exactly. A hundred percent.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:07)

You see where I'm heading? This is, I think everybody should get that trip to Sicily. They, this, this, this is the year. 

Jo Piazza: (42:15)

Yes! This is the year.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:15)

Exactly. And you don't even have to pack a bag because in, don't have your book, the Sicilian inheritance. It gives you everything you need for that perfect getaway. 

Jo Piazza: (42:28)

Oh, thank you. It does, it really does.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:32)

It's the spring break, summertime read that you need. Mm-Hmm. . It's got, it's, I mean, I think it's got something for everyone. It's got, it's, yeah. You touched on it a little bit about your personal connection, but I think what you didn't touch on enough for those of us who are a little bit, you know, maybe more food motivated?

Jo Piazza: (42:52)

, uh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (42:54)

The main character is a newly single chef and restaurateur who travels to her ancestral home to claim an inheritance only to discover what

Jo Piazza: (43:06)

Only to discover that it might be more dangerous to claim it than she thinks! 

Jo Piazza: (43:11)

But I love, but I love what you said about the food, because my goal with this book more than anything else, was to write a delicious book, like a delicious book that like, while you're reading it, you're like, I need to cook myself something incredible right now because I'm so freaking hungry. And I wrote the whole thing. I started writing during the pandemic, uh, in earnest. And, you know, all we wanted to do was leave our houses and like, have someone else cook food for us. And once the book was finished, I was able to go to Sicily last summer, and I just sat with my laptop in restaurants, and I like would describe the food in the book as I was eating it. And then I would ask other people to describe the food for me. And this one guy's like “this pasta is like eating the ocean.”

Jo Piazza: (43:53)

And I'm like, “yeah. Yep. That's going in the book. Thank you, sir. . Thank you, sir. I really appreciate that.”  So, I mean, I love that you say it's got something for everyone because, you know, a lot of people are telling me it's getting them out of their reading slump. Um, you know, it's got adventure, it's got murder mystery. It's got, it's got sex in a cave, which I just don't think we're talking about enough in, uh, the marketing promo for some reason. It's like, they think Target won't like that ad, but I'm like, there are people out there. Look at the bestseller list. It's a lot of fairy sex right now. Uh, so yeah, it's got sex in a cave. And, um, but I wanna tie this into two healthy screen habits that have been really, really working for me, because people ask me all the time, they're like, I don't have time to read anymore.

Jo Piazza: (44:34)

And I'm like, how much time are you on Instagram? Like, and I don't say that like, as a shame thing, it's something that I do too. But like, if you were to pick up the phone and scroll and be like, I'm just gonna scroll through here mindlessly, you probably have about 15 minutes to read a book, which is probably gonna get you a chapter of a book in. And so I don't bring my phone as much as I can. I try not to bring it to the bathroom. I keep a book in the bathroom. Let's be honest, we scroll a lot in the bathroom. I don't use my phone right before bed. I read right before bed. Or if I'm at like a kid's boring basketball game or practice, I don't look at my phone. I'll, I'll read a book. And I read a book like inline places and stuff too. I keep a paperback with me all the time. Um, and I think if you, like con, if you're very purposeful, if you think about consciously replacing, you're scrolling with, um, reading, you can read a book a week, honestly. Um, we let that suck up our time when we could be, could be giving it to something else.

Hillary Wilkinson: (45:29)

I love that. Here. I was like thinking that I was gonna be the one providing the healthy screen habit by this book recommendation. And what you actually just did was give a really great healthy screen habit. .

Jo Piazza: (45:40)

Well, I've, and I've got another one. I've got another one. Ooh.

Hillary Wilkinson: (45:43)

Do tell, do tell,

Jo Piazza: (45:44)

You know, because the Sicilian inheritance is set in Sicily. I, um, I, I took Italian in college. I forget it. My Italian is so bad. And I have a podcast that's also called the Sicilian Inheritance that's a comparison or that's a companion to the book. And you hear how bad my Italian is. It's pathetic. I almost asked them to take it out. And I was like, I have no shame anymore. I don't care . But, um, I'm trying to get better and I'm trying to learn Italian. So I do Duolingo and I do do, I do do Duolingo with my kids. It's a thing that we do on the screen together. Um, and my son loves it, where like, he is getting so good at Italian and it's because he gets things like subject/verb agreement that I never understood when I was first taking a language. Like it helps with that. But I make myself do Duolingo before I'm allowed to open up any social media apps. So I'm like, oh, did you not do your Duolingo lesson for two minutes today? No Instagram for you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (46:35)

Well, that is an excellent way of pairing, like, pairing two tasks. Mm-Hmm. , which happiness studies have shown that that's one of the best ways to create a new habit is to pair it with something. So if you're, it's kind of like giving yourself a little treat at the end. Yeah. And the other thing is that, um, the brain health aspect of reading versus scrolling, I mean, is huge, huge. It, I mean, reading actually provides this really like kind of active workout for the brain. Mm-Hmm. when you're thinking about the language centers that are being accessed and then the visualizations that are being happened. And then when you share what you're reading with other people in say, a planned social setting that has mental health benefits as well, like a book club. Like a book club. And that is where I am. Like, I just think the Sicilian Inheritance can be this great launchpad for the best food and gatherings and yeah. Read of the season!

Hillary Wilkinson: (47:54)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to any resources discussed, including the Sicilian Inheritance by visiting the show notes for this episode. Do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Thank you, Joe Piazza,  this has been awesome. You are awesome. You're real relatable. I can't wait for the next episode of Under The Influence and I cannot I even more, I cannot wait to dive into The Sicilian inheritance.

Jo Piazza: (48:26)

You're gonna love it. You're gonna love it. It's, it's, it's a romp.