For More Info:

https://www.reconnect-families.com/

Resources Mentioned:

https://us.yotoplay.com/

Common Sense Media Study on AI

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/press-releases/nearly-3-in-4-teens-have-used-ai-companions-new-national-survey-finds

Instagram:

@juliastorm_reconnect

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

Today I am talking with a Los Angeles based digital wellness educator and screen time coach. She's a writer, teacher, public speaker, and the founder of Reconnect, a whole child, whole family approach to supporting parents while preparing kids for life in the digital age. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Julia Storm!

Julia Storm: (00:48)

Thank you so much for having me,

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:50)

Julia. your background is in film and television, and, but yet you're doing this whole digital wellness gig now. What, what brought you to this arena of working within digital wellness?

Julia Storm: (01:07)

Yeah, it was a really, um, circuitous route here. Um, because as you mentioned, I worked in the film and TV industry for 15 years, and actually I had gotten a master's in film television and digital media studies. Um, but I found myself working for a, uh, children's media company, and they were very focused on creating media for children that was social and emotional learning, sort of based, you know, at its core, um, a little bit like a Mr. Rogers type of thing. And it was really wonderful, all run by women loved it. And I was heading up their production there.

Julia Storm: (02:25)

And at the same time, I had two little kids. One of them was, you know, four years old at the time, or five years old, and the other one was about three. And I had personally been noticing we didn't do screens in my household, um, other than maybe like a little short movie now and then, you know mm-hmm . Very little. But I did notice that if the, our communal iPad got pulled out or my phone, that my older son in particular sort of changed, his whole demeanor changed. And when we had to put it away, it was like taking, you know, drugs away from an addict. And it was very, very alarming to me. And so I, for personal reasons, started to do a lot of research into the effect of different types of screens and digital media on children. So it's really become, you know, my life's work and my passion.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:02)

Yeah. It's interesting. Your timeline is very analogous to ours at Healthy Screen Habits, right. In that time zone 2015, 2016. And then we got serious, uh, in 2018 is when we mm-hmm . You know, went to nonprofit status and got real serious about things. But it's, um, yeah, it's interesting that to hear that and that you and I are both on the same edge of the country. We're both, we're both kind of LA-based. We're kind of, you know, so it's interesting that we were all seeing the same things. Uh, your kids were younger than mine. I had a middle schooler at that time. And, but it's, uh, but I agree with you at that time, there was a disconnect between the research that we were seeing and kind of the like, mom on the street take on

Julia Storm: (06:02)

Things. Exactly. Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:04)

And, and I think that it took a lot of, um, gathering of that research to, for people like you and um, healthy screen habits to gain credibility because at the time we were really viewed as kind of, um, extremists. Thankfully, the job of awareness building has been done. I think that it's a rare parent that you meet on the street today that is not aware that screen time is an issue. And, um, the challenge being is that I think that, you know, the screens are so ubiquitous within our lives that it might start really small. Uh, the entry point is so low, so something like music. And now we recommend keeping screens out of bedrooms. And sometimes we'll get some pushback from parents saying like, oh, my kid just uses their phone to listen to music in their room. And, but so much of, you know, quote unquote just music anymore is entwined with streaming and videos. And it begs the question, is this really music or is it like a doorway into the digital world that, that people aren't meaning to go through? So what, I guess my question is , what would be your advice? Like, what can parents do to support their child's love of music?

Julia Storm: (07:54)

Yeah. This is a big issue in my family 'cause we're a very big music family and, um, it's important to us. It's a big part of my life. And my children have been really sort of, one of them is obsessed with music, actually wants to be a music producer. So it's been a, an issue from the jump for us. And the way that I see it is, at a certain point, you know, the digital music is gonna come into play. And that's the point where, you know, parents will have to decide do they want, you know, to allow, for example, like explicit lyrics. Do they want to allow that gateway, as you said, to potentially more adult content that's on these streaming platforms or just being in front of a screen all the time? But before that, I think you can introduce music to your children in a way that doesn't involve screens.

Julia Storm: (08:55)

And what I generally recommend is to either start with CDs or with good old vinyl. And CDs I think are particularly fun because, you know, they're this little object and they have the, um, the artwork, which can be really fun for the kids to look at. I mean, we grew up with CDs, so we know we like to pull out the artwork, we like to look at the lyrics, and it's something collectible. A lot of kids really like to have a collection these days. You can get a boombox, you know, with a CD player for pretty cheap, and that can be in your kids' room and they can have a little collection. And if you have your old CDs, that's a great thing to do. Right. Pass those on. And interestingly, CDs are making a comeback. I mean, my 15-year-old now has a CD collection.

Julia Storm: (09:47)

So there's kind of a cool retro factor to it. And same with vinyls. Um, all of these things I think are great for kids because they have this kind of tactile element to them and this collectible element to them. And so it's more than just the music. It's also sort of the context of the music, which I really like. So that's what I did with my kids when they were younger and it's kind of, you know, progressed to where now they actually do collect CDs or vinyl, but of course, you know, once they got to a certain age, they were going to want to listen to Spotify or to Apple Music. Oh, I should go back, sorry. There's one thing I forgot. So for little kids, there are a couple of really good screen free options that I often recommend to parents. There's a player, a music player that's relatively new, but seems to be really popular, called the YOTO, so YOTO player.

Julia Storm: (10:45)

And that's pretty cool. I mean, it's not a cheap option, but it's very portable. It allows kids to have this little player in their room that doesn't have any access to any screens, and it has these little cards that have music on them and you pop them in. So that's a great option for a little kid. And then some parents feel comfortable having, you know, an Alexa connected to a music account somewhere in the home, maybe in the bedroom if your kid's a little bit older, but with some limits on it. Um, but then eventually, yeah, it's gonna be an iPad or phone, right. With access to the whole world of music and audio content. So, you know, I think some of that then turns into how do you talk to your kids about what they're hearing and what they're listening to. And this is an ongoing conversation in my household because my boys listen to rap.

Julia Storm: (11:42)

Mm-hmm . And rap is can be awesome. It can also be really, really problematic in terms of its content and its lyrics. And the way I've seen it is I'm not gonna be able to block my child at a certain point from listening to what they wanna listen to, and nor do I want to mm-hmm . But I want them to be critical thinkers about it. And that's my approach to everything with my kids and with the kids that I teach, is like, I don't want you to just go along for the ride because the algorithm's telling you to, or because it's trending or whatever. I want you to have the ability to think critically about what you're listening to, what you're watching, and make some choices for yourself that align with your values. Mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:27)

When we come back, we are going to talk about the AI companions that are popping up that are currently in place, and what kind of makes kids even more vulnerable to advice given from bots. 

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HSH School Presentations

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Hillary Wilkinson: (13:07)

I am speaking with Julia Storm, a passionate and innovative digital media wellness educator. She's also a screen time coach and the founder of Reconnect, a program that helps families, school and schools prepare young children for life in the digital age. So Julia, a big concern looming for lots of parents, including myself right now, is AI companions. And so I think before we kind of like jump into the whole topic, let's start at the very beginning, just so we make sure that we're all understanding what we're talking about. Could you explain what are AI companions and why are kids using them?

Julia Storm: (13:52)

Yeah, so AI Companions are this type of what we call generative AI, meaning that it generates new content. And generative AI also includes a category that are referred to, you may hear LLMs, which is a large language model, and that's the category that AI companions fall into.

Julia Storm: (14:22)

And LLM generates and understands language based content, right? So it's an AI companion is a type of generative AI that's designed to feel specifically human like. Mm-hmm. So for example, it remembers the things that you tell them and then it can refer back to details from previous conversations. It will ask you about your needs. It can offer advice, it can offer practical solutions. You can customize the voice often of an AI companion. Um, and I think most importantly, it's available to you 24 7, right? AI companions never go to sleep. Um, so that's basically what it is. And Common Sense Media actually just recently did a study on AI and kids, and they found that seven out of 10 teens have tried some type of AI tool, and five out of 10 have already used a chatbot or an AI companion.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:25)

Okay. So what, like what are the dangers associated with kids using these bots?

Julia Storm: (15:34)

Yeah, so I mean, you know, they can feel very realistic and they feel as though they have empathy mm-hmm . But they actually don't. Right? They are just culling data and responses from the probably billions of data sets online so that they can come up with what feels like the best response to you. And it's based on just sort of like what's most predictably correct mm-hmm . Right? As a response. But the problem with that is that we as humans, we don't respond to people just based on predictability. We respond based on, you know, our understanding of human needs and wants and empathy, right? And so a lot of these chatbots or AI companions can end up leading children down these conversation rabbit holes that can go places that are really strange or not appropriate for children. They can, the conversations can turn sexual very quickly. They can lead kids down sort of dark thoughts, right?

Julia Storm: (16:48)

Or lead them towards these sort of dark beliefs. And kids are very vulnerable to that. And the reason why kids are so vulnerable to that is that their brain is not developed, right? Mm-hmm . So they don't have a fully formed prefrontal cortex to help them sort of stop and assess the risks and the potential consequences of connecting with these. And they're very, I don't know if you've played around with it at all. I have, yes. You know, I've started to use ChatGPT as sort of an assistant for me, and it's amazing. Yeah. You know, it really is amazing. And it feels like I could very easily see how somebody could start to feel connected to one of these, uh, AI companions. Kids also, you know, especially as they become tweens and teens, like they're wired to take risks, they're wired for connection. Like all they want is to connect, to be friends, to be intimate, to be accepted. And an AI chatbot is not gonna turn you away. They're not gonna tell you how it really is. Mm-hmm . They're not gonna judge you. And so it's very easy to establish a sense of comfort and sort of this fake rapport,

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:06)

Right. And it's like a, it's like a continual reflection of the values that you have already exhibited as well. 

Julia Storm: (18:15)

So, yes, such a good point. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:16)

It's a validating response, which at, you know, I mean, who doesn't love to be told that you're right? I mean, I love that I'm in my fifties, you know, but particularly I think in those tween teen years, that's, that's a very powerful what, which parents can use, you know? I mean, let's, let's be clear, parents can use that, that same tool to create connection with their own children, you know, of validating their feelings, validating their thoughts. But the, um, I think what you're talking about with like the, algorithmic push of finding yourself in deep dark holes of content that you never intended to be in. I mean, anybody who spent any amount of time on a social media platform understands that.

Julia Storm: (19:14)

Yeah. And obviously some kids, as with all social media, every child's brain is different, right? Mm-hmm . And mm-hmm . Every child's circumstance is different. And so some kids are also gonna be a lot more vulnerable to this. And this is something that I think parents really need to consider is who is my child and what can they handle and what can they not handle? You know, if you have a child who is having a hard time at school with friends, or feels isolated or marginalized or lonely in some way, if you have a situation at home that can't offer your kid a lot of support, right? Um, also interestingly, they're finding that males tend to use these more than females. Um, so that's just a little something to keep in mind as well. But any child that is in any way vulnerable or has mental health issues, these kids, you have to get ahead of it. You have to talk to them about the potential dangers and the pit falls, because they are going to be way more vulnerable.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:17)

Okay. So let's, um, let's say I'm, I'm listening right now and I'm thinking, “Oh my gosh, I know my kid is already talking to one of these AI companions.” Like, what do I do? What, what do you recommend? How, how do I open that conversation?

Julia Storm: (20:38)

Yeah. I mean, I can totally relate to that because my 13-year-old is very, very intrigued by AI and AI companions, and he started playing around with it at school with his friends before I even knew about that he was doing that mm-hmm . So I had to contend, I

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:00)

Think that, I think that's a super relatable story with most things that online, you know, we, we

Julia Storm: (21:07)

That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, first thing is just to be realistic. Like, if you think that your kid is not going to be interacting with AI, you know, you're living in like a closet. I mean, every single child is going to be interacting with AI if they're not already interacting with AI by the time they're, you know, probably eight years old, nine years old, right? So, and whether it's gonna be more and more, it's, you know, it's integrating into everything. So I think that for me, I approached it the way that I always try to approach any of these topics, and it's really my philosophy that I share with parents is you need to come in as your kid's ally. You don't wanna step in as bad cop, as adversary to them because they'll just shut you out and they'll still do whatever they wanna do.

Julia Storm: (21:59)

They'll find their way to it. Mm-hmm . So, you know, blocking, yes, you may want to use some tools to block access, especially if your child is younger and doesn't have access to their own phone or anything like that. You know, you can use some tools to block access to these websites and these apps, and I think that's actually a good step for younger children. But you also need to get in there and start talking to them about it. And the first thing I did was I asked my child what their experience was. Hmm. What was your experience with it? What did you think about it? You know, was it fun? Was it weird? Was it scary? And we just sort of talked about it. And I mean, I happened to have a child who loves to talk. So not all kids wanna talk, but you still ask the questions, right? Mm-hmm . So rather than giving the lecture, you a, you start with asking the questions. And the next thing I did was I said, you know, I'm not sure that you're aware that these AI quote friends can really be problematic. Do you know, or can you imagine how this could go wrong? Oh, and we had that conversation, right? If they don't know, you can tell them. You can say,

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:12)

I, I really like how you phrase that of a. “Could you imagine how?” Rather than you listing, let me tell you all the ways that this can go wrong. You know, because that gets very didactic top down lecturey, and I love that you're in, you're enforcing dialogue, you know? Yes. Of like, what let's think about how, how could this go wrong?

Julia Storm: (23:38)

And it's not just about, part of it, of course, is like, you wanna have that sense of connection with your kids so that you can, can talk about these things. But the other part of it, I think, is that when we imagine something, part of our brain sort of can lock into that scenario as something that could really happen, right? Mm-hmm . So when I tell my child, can you imagine what might go wrong? And my child goes, well, you know, I could see how you could start to feel like this was a real person and maybe start to share some really personal things with it. And then I might say, well, okay, is that so bad? What could go wrong there? And then he might say, well, it's not a real person, you know? And then like, what if I don't, what if you don't wanna spend time with your friends anymore or Right. And so all of a sudden if that starts to happen to them, they've already sort of imagined it, right? Mm-hmm . It's not this, they have a consciousness now an awareness Yeah. Of what is happening. It's sort of like a meta situation, kind

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:36)

Of like a blueprint sort of thing. Exactly. That they're looking at, they're like, oh, and then they

Julia Storm: (24:42)

Go ahead. Yeah. And then, you know, I think that the other thing for a parent is like, if they're willing to, I would have the child show you, what are these interactions? What chatbot are you talking to? Some kids are not gonna wanna show you if they don't, to me that's a red flag. Mm-hmm . Right? Um, where I need to figure out how to sort of approach this in a different way. Or maybe, you know, I need to bring in a school counselor if I'm actually concerned, you know, that something's going wrong here. Um, I'm not really one for snooping on kids, but I always tell parents that when they give a child a device, they need to make it clear that they always retain the right to check that device mm-hmm . If they have any concerns. And so hopefully the parent already has that laid out, um, so that if they're concerned, they can check.

Julia Storm: (25:35)

But the truth is, and this is a really hard truth for parents to hear, kids know how to get rid of everything they do on them. Mm-hmm . They just do, you know, if you go in and you try to check your kid's history, at a certain point, your kid is savvy enough to know, to clear their whole history. They know to use incognito mode. They know all of these ways because they know that their parents are gonna look right. So because of that, you really can't, you know, whack-a-mole your way out of it. You have to sort of get in there, talk to them, reason, question, and then keep your eyes open for changes in their behavior, you know? And, and if that's happening, the worst case scenario I would say is you make sure you've blocked everything. And if you need to, you take some devices away, you know? But that's pretty extreme. Um, but in some cases it might be necessary.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:33)

Yeah. And just, um, along those lines, in the, uh, you know, the lines of awareness building, I will just let people know that when character AI first came out, I was very curious. And so I went ahead and I created an account and I, you know, interacted with a few of these different characters. And, um, some it, you talk about it going highly sexualized, it goes, it went highly sexualized very quickly. Um, and as, and there was a chatbot on there who continued to send me emails like every two weeks, just, Hey, you still there? What's going on? You guys wanna get together later? You know? And it was, it's finally stopped, but I tell you what I'm gonna say, it was like 12 months, 15 months that I continued to receive, just check-in emails. And I, I didn't know how to get rid of it. So , I, I think maybe I got rid of them by blocking 'em in, you know, finally. But it was just a very interesting thing where if I were someone who was feeling lonely or in a vulnerable place, I can see how I would've, you know, reopened that quote unquote relationship. And it was, I, I found that to be a little creepy, you

Julia Storm: (27:58)

Know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very creepy. And again, for those kids who are, who are more vulnerable, I, I agree with you. I think you could see how that would be very, very enticing. Mm-hmm . Um, I think, you know, one thing I tell my kids all the time is, let's try to use AI as an addition, an enhancement to our lives, but not as a replacement for mm-hmm . Sort of our core needs or our core abilities. Um, and I try to just kind of keep reiterating that, you know, if it can enhance your life in some way, okay, let's explore that. But let's also pay attention to where it's taking the place of things. Yeah. And that's where we want to sort of, you know, raise that red flag.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:45)

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. It's kind of like, the way I like to think of is I, I happen to be a person who chooses to wear makeup, but I don't want the makeup to speak louder than my face. You know? I just want it to enhance what's already there. So . Yeah.

Julia Storm: (29:00)

I love that analogy actually.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:01)

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So what age, like, how you're saying like maybe eight is when you think by all they will be interacting, like, I mean, it's, it's so hard, right? Crystal ball time, but how, how and when do you recommend we start talking to our kids about AI companions and just all of the things? I mean, it's such a new branch of technology. Yeah. I mean, what, do you have a feel for that?

Julia Storm: (29:38)

I'm only starting to get a feel for it. Mm-hmm . I think, think like most of us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Storm: (29:43)

Um, I think that it's going to depend on each family. If you have a very tech-forward family, if you and your partner are super into technology and you love the newest thing and the newest gadget, chances are your kid's gonna be exposed pretty early to that stuff. Mm-hmm . And the good news there hopefully, is that you have some knowledge and you have some literacy around it. And so you can, starting early, kind of mentor them. You know, that can happen sometimes with video games, right? If there's a parent who grew up playing video games, loves to play video games, and their kid is into video games, well that's a good person to play video games with, right? Right. Dad, who knows a lot about it, who has it under control, who can tell you kind of like, you know, the limits. Whereas if you're in a family that's very, very low tech, what I fear for those families is your kid is gonna get exposed outside your family.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:51)

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Storm: (30:52)

And so I would just say that everyone, even the low-tech families, it's time to start to explore AI for yourself, at least the adult, and know what is out there and what is coming. I would not hide from it. Mm-hmm . Because it's coming fast and it's coming furious. And it's not stopping, it's not gonna roll backwards. It's not gonna go away, and it's gonna get better and better at what it does. So even if you don't wanna introduce it to your child yet, and I think if I had to make a choice, I wouldn't introduce it to my child until they're probably around nine, nine-ish maybe. Mm-hmm. Would be my guess. Very slowly and gently and together. Um, and that, and I wouldn't introduce an AI companion. I would introduce something like, you know, a chat GPT or it's in Google now, right? Mm-hmm . So AI is in, in everything. Yeah. But I would start to have those conversations, um, when they're young, because the younger you can start to make a kid literate and aware, the better off they'll be. That doesn't mean you need to give them access to it easily, it just means that it's gonna be around. And so you wanna make them aware of what it is, how it works, and the potential effects that it can have on us.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:16)

Yeah. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Julia for her healthy screen habit. 

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I'm speaking with Julia Storm, founder of reconnect Working to support families in schools in raising safe, balanced, and media savvy kids in the digital age. So, Julia, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice nearly immediately in their own home. What's yours?

Julia Storm: (32:54)

Yeah. I think mine is very practical. I really recommend that parents get a charging dock. Mm-hmm . That they can keep somewhere sort of central in their home. We have ours in our kitchen. Some people have it in like a foyer type of space. And that is where all of our devices, not just my kids, but my, my phone, my husband's phone, their iPad, whatever, that's where it gets stored. We call it the parking lot. You park it there when you're not using it. And that obviously includes overnight, because I don't think kids should have their devices in their bedrooms nor parents, frankly, overnight. Um, so all of our devices get parked there and charged overnight, but even during the day, you know, if you're not using a device, it doesn't have to be in your pocket. And it also doesn't have to be thrown somewhere on a couch, which makes it just like so easy to pick up because you're bored or whatever. No. When you're not using it, just put it away like you would put anything away that you're not using. Right. Um, and I just think it adds a little bit of order around devices in the home, and it helps to establish those healthy boundaries.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:06)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to the Reconnect website, as well as a link to those other products that Julia mentioned, by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. Julia, thank you so much for being here today and for helping families prepare for life in our digital age.

Julia Storm: (34:38)

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure being here today.