S2 Episode 10: Tales of a Hacker // Bryan Seely, Cybersecurity Expert

"If someone [or a company] sends you an email, don't click on a link. Go to the site directly, open up a new tab and then go there to just check in. Log into your account. They'll have a message or a way to communicate with you other than directly by email."

- Bryan Seely

Healthy Screen Habit Takeaway

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:04):

I'm not in the practice of talking to people who may be on the FBI's most watched list. So, uh, look, wish me luck today. My guest is a world famous cyber security expert, ethical hacker, author, and a former us Marine. His story of origin reads kind of like something out of the Marvel Comic Universe. Exposing a criminal underworld that had taken root and spread all over the globe. Being a hacker himself. He recognized early on that criminals had set up shop in every city in the United States and most major cities, worldwide banking and preying on consumer ignorance. He began his quest to expose this system of fraud by demonstrating a flaw in Google maps. I'm going to let him explain and explore the rest of his story, but in the meantime, I'm very honored and more than a little humbled to welcome to the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast. Bryan Seely.

Bryan Seely (01:07):

Thank you for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:13):

So Bryan, I've shared some of your achievements and professional work already, but I do have kind of a pressing question that I'm wondering if you could help me out with, and that's what it always seems like when I'm talking to computer guys like real deal computer guys, there are three items that come up with utmost regularity and that is basements, hot pockets and mountain Dew. So I get the basement thing. It's dark you're by yourself. It's mostly quiet. Mountain Dew is kind of like the OG energy drink, right? It was like monster before monster. Oh, holding up a can of monster. As we speak here, I got a bottle of water. There you go. Exactly. Keep it balanced, keep it balanced. But, um, I'm kind of confused by the hot pocket. Can you explain the allure of the hot pocket or am I totally off base? Have I pegged it wrong?

Bryan Seely (02:11):

No, no. I mean, I don't, I don't own currently own any hot pockets. Uh, I have in the past, they're easy to eat. They're require no cooking. I know how to cook and regularly do so because I have children and they tend to eat every day.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:10):

So the hot pocket is mostly about convenience.

Bryan Seely (03:35):

It's about convenience, convenience. It tastes good. As long as you heat them properly.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:39):

So can you kind of share your story on how you got to be the guy, the, the world famous hacker who wiretapped the FBI?

Bryan Seely (04:33):

I've always been on the computer like two or three years old. Um, by middle school, I think seventh or eighth grade, I was being paid semi-regularly to go help someone with their computer. Uh, multiple people in the community high school kind of got into partying and screwing around, but it was always on the computer. Uh, I joined the Marine Corps. Uh, I was a linguist. I've been on a computer pretty much after getting out of the Marine Corps in, uh, the early two thousands. But the FBI secret service wiretapping thing that happened in like 2014 and it was kind of, um, pushing back against what Google was telling me. They were saying, okay, this is, you're not really finding a security issue with spam issue. No one cares, go away. I pushed back with some funny listings that I made. Uh, I changed the library of Congress on Google maps, to the Zoolander School of Kids Who Can't Read Good and a bunch of other things, but it doesn't actually change the name, but just what everyone looks at on Google. And then, uh, some jokes about Edward Snowden.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:41):

Well, that's, that's the one that I, I most enjoyed my own self. And first

Bryan Seely (05:47):

One was Snowed Inn secret hiding place. And that was on the white house lawn. But then the TedTalk, I made Edward's Snow Den. It was a snowboarding and it was a little dad joke in there. And that one that was still my favorite.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:50):

For people who are unfamiliar with your Ted talk, could you just take a, is it possible to do a little brief foray into explaining how you did it explaining why?

Bryan Seely (07:03):

Sure - So business owners all over the world, the United States and everywhere else, um, are competing with fake business listings locksmiths, pool cleaners. And this happens in business industries where you go service a client at their location rather than them coming to going to their business. So pool cleaner carpet, cleaner, mobile, anything locksmiths and so on. Um, they found a way to dominate the top 10 results or even more so you'll get a lot of spam, AAA locksmith, AAA 24, 7 locksmiths, AA, locksmiths Seattle's best locksmith, Seattle, second best locksmith. If they try everything because it's free essentially to just spam, as much as you want, getting a phone number is a dollar, $2. And if you dominate the results, you get all the business, consumers suffer, business owners suffer. So I created a secret service location in the exact same place as the real one and an FBI location. That same thing, one in San Francisco and one in DC. And then I flagged the real ones as spam and all the phone numbers I had forwarded to the real offices, which then became the default result on Google and people would call in and I would get to listen. I listened to like two, maybe three and turned myself in or tried to, uh, the FBI hung up on me and the secret service after about 15 minutes told me, they'd look into it and let me go. But I wasn't convinced that they believed me.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:46):

Nobody was taking you seriously.

Bryan Seely (08:48):

No, like eye rolling. And just like, [inaudible] But the idea was they need to take this seriously because I can listen to active calls right now. So I was like, all right, screw. This calls the secret service in DC. And I'm in their office lobby three agents in me. He picks up his phone types on it, which is call talks to the guy. We hear this agent in front of us. Like, okay. Yep, Nope, yep. Following up on a case. Yeah. This is the agent so-and-so in Seattle. He knows the guy like this is somebody who's talked to before hangs up. I got a notification on my phone, push play, push speaker, and then played back what he just did. And we could all now hear the other guy. And

Hillary Wilkinson (09:38):

You could hear both sides of the conversation.

Bryan Seely (09:40):

Yeah. And then he said, oh, sh*@ and they took all my stuff and

Hillary Wilkinson (09:47):

It wasn't your stuff. That was the problem. What was the underlying problem laid on? Whose like whose deck who was holding the underlying problem?

Bryan Seely (09:58):

This was Google. Uh, they ignored the issue. They'd been told multiple times that it was a problem. News stories about it. No comment, no fix, no nothing. Secret service yelled at them. And they had to turn off new map, new map, registration, business registrations for like two months. And they had to delete an entire product called mapmaker. Okay.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:21):

Because of you!

Bryan Seely (10:24):

Like I kind of feel a little bad, but like,

Hillary Wilkinson (10:27):

Well, not really national security is at stake here.

Bryan Seely (10:30):

And the agent in charge was like, you're a hero, but also don't ever do that again. Like you're not allowed to do that again. Just to be clear, we're not going to like pat you on the back. If you go and do that again.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:43):

Right. Right. So they were like, you get one hall pass, but after this, no more,

Bryan Seely (10:48):

It had something to do with that. I had a top secret clearance in the Marines. And so I wasn't an unknown, unknown. It was more like, all right, we know who this idiot is. So maybe he just goes home and just minds his business.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:02):

Right. But then, so after the two months, so given Google's given two months and then what happened,

Bryan Seely (11:10):

Nothing turned everything back on and nothing was fixed.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:13):

Oh my gosh.

Bryan Seely (11:16):

Someone lied to the government.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:21):

So, hence: that's when Edwards Snow Den and snow play areas started emerging. Correct?

Bryan Seely (11:30):

That was, yeah. I built a couple of different things to just show them that it wasn't, that it was still broken and that Google removes them as soon as a whole bunch of things happen, like press. And, but I wasn't allowed to do those demonstrations anymore, so. Hmm.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:49):

But you can go on, honestly, you can do a Google search for Edward's Snow Den today and still find the images of those maps. Oh yeah. I mean, and it's very funny. I mean, it's a, this is, this is not something I feel like in the medical realm, they talk about gallows humor and stuff like this. I kind of feel like this is gallows humor of the I.T. World. It's like, oh, our national security is at stake. Ha ha oh

Hillary Wilkinson (12:19):

So now that we've basically established that I'm like, I don't know, like Jodie Foster, walking in to see Anthony Hopkins in "Silence of the Lambs". Can you take me to your childhood? What leads one town, this path to become a hacker? Like I'm just, 

Bryan Seely (13:04):

Well, I was on the screen for more than two hours a day

Hillary Wilkinson (13:07):

That's what every parent listening to this is going, oh my gosh.

Bryan Seely (13:12):

Well, the thing that can help parents is the fact that if your kid is constantly trying to find loopholes and bend the rules when it's in, puts it in, when it's in class and it, the teachers are annoyed, they come to you and then you're annoyed or they're doing it to you. You're annoyed. But that's a really good skill - once they're out of your house and no longer your responsibility. And really those consequences are all on them. If they learn how to manage it, right. You can find really high paying careers that look for people who can think like me and my friends do lockpicking competitions because it's part of our job to legally pick a lock or legally solve a puzzle.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:55):

Right. Are you talking about lockpicking you're talking about like virtual locks, right?

Bryan Seely (13:59):

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Like Metal lock picks and, and you have a whole bunch of locks, padlocks and combination locks on like a piece of wood to be able to, my friend makes his kids solve a Rubik's cube or pick a lock to then have dessert. If they want dessert after dinner, they get to do that. And he collects enigma machine type things like he's way out there - next level. But that's, that's the stuff that makes me interested. So it's not, your kid is not broken. They're the ones who are going to be able to fix things by finding the loopholes or they'll be a lawyer. And then yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:38):

And it'll be on the, you know, either side of the page, there's something for them to do. You just have to channel the energy, right? 

Bryan Seely (14:46):

Yeah You got to, and that's a problem solving skill. That's very valuable. Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:51):

I get it , yes, I do get it

We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to kind of dive a little bit deeper into ransomware and privacy.

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Hillary Wilkinson (16:14):

My guest is Bryan Seeley. Before the break, we were talking about the mindset of a cyber criminal. Now being a cybersecurity expert, I realized that some of these questions may be so basic. It's painful for you, but I don't think I'm alone in my like naivete and lack of knowledge of things. I am, I am 100% your basic, like every day public person. Okay. So, and what I do believe is that knowledge is power. So I'm hoping that you've got, you're going to share some of that knowledge with us. And I'm also going to put myself out there and ask the stupid questions, starting with: What is ransomware?

Bryan Seely (17:04):

Ransomware is just a sophisticated offshoot of malware or viruses. We've all heard about viruses. I mean, even, uh, as a real one, a coronavirus or whatever, it's something that gets inside - its hostile. It has a purpose. That's not good for you. And for ransomware, it's kind of falls under the idea of it's easy to break in somewhere. It's hard to break back out with the stuff or the money, like a bank. Anyone can get into the bank. It's getting out with the money. That's really hard. Okay. So if all of a sudden you can render everything inside of a place, worthless like ransomware does. It takes all of your stuff and encrypts it with a code that you can't possibly guess - it would take more time than there has been minutes in the world, in the entire universe. Since the beginning of time, it's such a ridiculously long number mathematically. So you have to pay to get that number, that code to get your stuff back. Think of it this way. If I took a bike lock and I went to Baskin Robbins and I put the bike lock on the doors, Baskin Robbins is closed now. Right. And that's not illegal as far as I know. Oh, now imagine the bike lock has a billion digit code. Good luck.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:36):

Right, right.

Bryan Seely (18:38):

Or you pay me $10,000 and you can have your ice cream back.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:42):

Okay. So we hear about like these massive corporations and like, say like the oil pipeline getting held up by ransomware. And um, just does the average citizen need to be concerned? I mean, that's, it's I dunno, like I said, I'm kind of embarrassed to

Bryan Seely (18:59):

Well I don't know what it's like to be an average citizen. Oh,

Hillary Wilkinson (19:05):

Okay. How about a spectacular citizen?

Bryan Seely (19:12):

Uh, so yeah. Yes. People need to know, not clicking on links that you get from people, don't download stuff. you don't know who sent. Um, if you're on the internet, use your credit card instead of your debit to do shopping because the money's actually insured on your credit card. You get a refund immediately. No problem. Um, if you didn't go looking for it and you got sidetracked, like, "Ooh, squirrel", like a banner caught your eye or something there they're designed to take your attention somewhere. Oh, okay. So you didn't go looking for something. It ....probably don't.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:56):

Okay. That's a really good tip. So yeah, I understand that immensely because I feel like I get hit by it with that all the time somehow.

Bryan Seely (20:04):

Homeschool Resources, bam, click on it, you go get your thing. But then it's like, oh, well then there's this story about a mom. And they sit in, you click and then a video and then another site. And it's all designed to get this dopamine feedback loop and dangle, this carrot of something that you want or way to save money or a coupon code to get a hundred percent off. And like, bam, there's ransomware for lots of different types of things. In 2019. One of the worst strains of it was designed as a program to help people cheat at the game, Fortnite. Oh. So I fully support that version of ransomware to stop cheaters from cheating.

Hillary Wilkinson (20:46):

If you didn't go looking for it, don't click on it. But also, um, are there like, are there times of heightened vulnerability that people.

Bryan Seely (21:16):

Yeah. Well, when you're awake,

Hillary Wilkinson (21:21):

I was going for like, um, house buying and like holidays or travel.

Bryan Seely (21:28):

No, they're all equally as dangerous because everything is now a trap. Your iCloud account has been hacked. Please confirm these new charges. Symantec is charging your account $500 to renew this antivirus software. Here's your receipt - click here to dispute. Don't click, don't click there. Sending the iCloud message to everyone, your Amex account. I don't have an Amex account. Ha ha ha jokes on you. But all the people who do have an Amex account are freaking out for a second.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:02):

Are there tips that you have, that people can take like, okay, so the, the clear one is don't buy anything. I mean, use your credit card.

Bryan Seely (22:13):

If someone sends you an email, don't click on a link, go to the site directly, open up a new tab and then go there to just check in, log into your account. They'll have a message or a way to communicate with you other than directly by email. Call customer support if you need to. But if you go to certain, um, government sites, they'll have these notices, like scammers are trying to trick people. We never send the power company representatives to collect payment or shut stuff off. You'll never get a call from us asking for your username and password, stop falling for this very kind of trick. Right. I've had some really, really good scamming attempts and they'll, they'll get you. Like they're really, really good.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:56):

And they're getting better is the thing it used to be like, you'd get the emails.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:00):

And like, there'd be like, there'd be misspellings. There'd be poor grammar.

Bryan Seely (23:07):

Yeah. Lots of times those were intentional to filter out the idiots. So the people who still clicked on them, they don't notice the spelling, mistakes. The people who do notice the spelling mistakes are going to be a problem because they're going to be skeptical already. They don't want to talk to us, but they are recruiting people actively in the United States who are looking to make commission or help out like, "Hey, if you don't like your company put ransomware on one of the servers and we'll cut you in 30% or 50%."

Hillary Wilkinson (23:38):

Oh, wow. Okay. So if

Bryan Seely (23:42):

I can't say that, I wouldn't have taken that opportunity. I worked at dairy queen and my manager was a dick. Yeah. Yeah. I would have robbed the queen. Like that would have been no more dairy.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:54):

Well it just, you know, be, be a good human is, is the lesson there. Don't piss people off. Right. If you're beating you employees, especially like digital natives who already can like, you know, type their way in circles around you. So treat teenagers nicely is what I'm saying, Bryan... watch those comments.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:15):

Do you have any tips? Like what are like, if, if you know that you have been hit, do you know what are, what are some things you should do immediately?

Bryan Seely (24:38):

Do you know? It depends on the kind of thing you get hit with call somebody, hire somebody, if you can afford it. If you get hit with ransomware probably. Yeah. But who do you hire?

Hillary Wilkinson (24:49):

I mean, that's like, like I'm saying I'm like general public. I don't even, I wouldn't even know who to start with. Who'd

Bryan Seely (24:54):

I look on Google maps for computer security or computer consultant - yeah, there's a lot of experts in every city. It's just, you can't really type in ransomware expert in Google maps, but you can type your computer consultant. You could post on Facebook and asking for someone recommendation and chances are people will be helpful.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:21):

Okay. Okay. See, at that's where it just gets sketchy to me. I don't know. I was hoping you'd tell me, "oh, call this number."

Bryan Seely (25:30):

You're looking, you're looking for Harry Potter because you want magic. I wish!

Hillary Wilkinson (25:36):

Preferably. Yes. If you could do that for me! Is There anything that you wish, like if you could let, I mean, you've got an audience primarily of parents here on this podcast. Is there something that you wish every parent knew about technology or privacy or safety? Something that we could kind of use to help arm our kids or our family or all of, I mean, any of the above?

Bryan Seely (26:23):

Recommended screen time limits that I use are imposing upon my captives. Um, two hours a day. And then I use, and I try to limit it to where they have at least an hour before bed of no screen with the blue light issue. Uh, I don't snoop on communications. My son doesn't communicate anybody who watches videos. My daughter's 12. I don't read her messages back and forth because of a privacy and respect thing. We haven't had any issues. She's doesn't like breaking the rules. And I don't understand where I got this kid from, but the return policy is terrible,

Hillary Wilkinson (27:04):

Well, see you did the right thing and pointing this out to the secret service and FBI. And this was your karmic retribution.

Bryan Seely (27:13):

So she and I talk about things, uh, fairly openly. We also had the experience that her older sister was 16 when she was getting into drugs and ended up being trafficked.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:28):

Oh gosh, I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Bryan Seely (27:31):

She was missing for about a month. Uh, ended up being, uh, sold online and it was awful. Oh my gosh. We could do a whole other podcast on that.

Bryan Seely (27:41):

Or when I finished the book, it'll be out in a few months. I'll happily come back on and talk about it. Uh, not the point you want to end on a downer

Hillary Wilkinson (27:54):

That's okay - we are keeping it real here.

Bryan Seely (27:55):

We're therapy saved my ass. Um, learning like what I have control over what I don't. There are going to be crappy people. There's going to be people trying to sell your kids stuff, scam. You scam them and can't control them all the time. You can't insulate them from everything, especially if they have a phone, but you, if you help them understand what it is and why you think it might not be in their best interest, some parents don't ever tell their kids that they've ever had a drug problem where they've had an alcohol problem or they have dealt with, um, pornography or anything like that. And they never tell their kids that they struggled with anything because it ruins the image of them being perfect. That's going to happen no matter what I guarantee you, because even if you are Brene Brown or your kids get to see your flaws and mistakes, even if you're awesome. So I tell my, I talked to my kids about stuff. I don't go into nitty gritty details. My daughter knows more than my son because of the age difference. But, um…

Hillary Wilkinson (29:00):

So communication is basically the best. I feel really validated in hearing you say that, because that is what I believe to be the backbone of, you know, uh, a good, uh, a safe and secure household, no matter what it is talking about, whether it's cyber stuff or whether it's out, you know, outside, they always call it "In Real Life". Which I think like it's, it's so hard to designate a difference between the two anymore. Particularly

Bryan Seely (29:36):

Really stupid people in real life. And some really smart ones in digital lives. So it's not the, this is better than this one always rule. It doesn't always work that way. But when I was a kid, my mom definitely talked about, um, no magic. You're not allowed to watch Smurfs because magic was evil and of the devil and very strict conservative upbringing. She's not wrong. It's not the magic was going to infect us. It was more of what you put in your head does end up becoming what you think about and see. So if you watch violent movies, 24 hours a day, is it going to have the same effect as if you were watching puppy documentaries? Probably not. Yeah. So if you don't know what your kids are watching, you don't know if they're on Snapchat or Tik Tok or what you A: You don't know much about your kids and what their favorite things are. That's a problem too. I have the problem being a single parent where I'm trying to do things and also pay attention to them.

Hillary Wilkinson:

And I have found also what I do enjoy is even if I'm not playing the game, um, you know, everybody likes to be an expert on something and for somebody who's playing the game, I mean, my, I have to say like, my son is incredibly patient with me because every move he makes I'm like, "what's that thing over there? Oh, what's that? Oh, Open, go open that, go see what that is, you know?"

Bryan Seely:

Oh yeah. And he said, "Mom, I got it!"

Hillary Wilkinson:

Exactly. No. And he's all over it. And that's one way that it did make his, his gaming world. Interesting for me as somebody who's not, you know, and he was so patient with me because I mean, honestly, I'm like, "well, go over there! What happens?" And that's how you, you learned to speak their language as well. Like, you know, you find out and also you find out why different games. It doesn't make sense for you to say things like, turn it off, turn it off and come to dinner. Like we use the phrase, like "find a good stopping spot."

Bryan Seely:

Yeah. Most, most games now - kids will take advantage of that. They'll be like, okay, I will, even though they could just turn it off and turn it back on. And it's resuming, they don't ever have to pause. It.

Hillary Wilkinson:

I've Been sold a bill of goods!.

Bryan Seely:

You had games that you couldn't pause that you had to legit play out for 10 or 15 minutes. Or if you touched the console, it's all your work has gone. But that's not the case anymore. Back in the day. Huh. And they're totally going with it.

Hillary Wilkinson:

Oh, see, you're right. You're right. See exposed the dirty underbelly.

Bryan Seely:

And you asked for it -  if you knew enough, so you wouldn't have fallen victim

Hillary Wilkinson:

Very true. Very true. Okay. We have to take a short break, but when I come back, I'm going to ask Brian Sealy for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

We are back. I'm talking with Brian Seely: world, famous ethical hacker and cybersecurity expert on every episode of the healthy screen habits podcast. I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. So Brian, do you have one you can share with us today?

Bryan Seely:

Sure. Um, most of the time I use a combination of like, if you have Comcast or Xfinity or some sort of, uh, internet service provider, they have family, uh, parental controls. There's Open DNS, which is another website that allows you to control content and picks websites you can visit. And without getting into the technical information, it's easy to set up. I mean, it's in English, it's a few steps. It doesn't, it's not that complicated at all. Most people can figure it out. It allows you to filter out either gambling or pornography or hate speech or drugs or academic, cheating websites, those kinds of things.

Hillary Wilkinson:

So are these are software? It's not, it's not a router?

Bryan Seely:

It's software. It would actually prevent the computer from discovering websites because every time your computer goes to a website, google.com, it's really not actually looking for the, the letters it's translating the letters into numbers. And those numbers are IP addresses, internet protocol. And every computer has one on the internet, which is why everyone can see everyone on the internet. Okay? So it's like a house on a street. Your house is one IP and you can go knock on everyone's door if you want. And that's the address. So if you know where the house address is, you know how to get to it. That's what Google is. If you change, if you block certain IP numbers by saying, this is bad, this is harmful. This is hate speech. There's naked people here there's this, that or the other, you can make a big safe list or come kind of come up with a rolling list of safe websites. And that's kind of what they do. And it also helps prevent malware or viruses from being downloaded. Because most of the time you download something bad and it reaches out to the internet, grab something from somewhere and then brings it back.

Hillary Wilkinson :

Okay. Okay. So what if somebody was trying to look up that kind of Software?

Bryan Seely:

Open D N S and then there's another good piece of software I've used in the past. And I still use today. It's called Custodio Q U S T D I O I think I've heard of that. And it works with most platforms, Android iOS. So I-phones windows, Mac from book and allows you to set time limits for a certain apps. So some apps they can just use forever, like word you type to your heart's content by all means, knock yourself out, write a screenplay who cares, but you can't play Minecraft more than two hours and if you play Minecraft for two hours. You have no more time for other games because they won't run until tomorrow. And then they won't run in the middle of the night. The kid isn't going to be up texting way past their bedtime because they don't want to go sleep.

Hillary Wilkinson :

Right. Right. Okay. So I will link Open DNS and Qustodio in our show notes. Um, Brian, if people would like to read more about yourself or any of the other spectacular and amazing things that you have done, where can they find information on you?

Bryan Seely :

Um, revamping the website, but BrianSeely.com is my full name. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter or you can start knocking on doors and eventually you'll find me, but those other sites might be the best way,

Hillary Wilkinson:

Target Pacific Northwest for the door knocking. Right.

Bryan Seely :

All right. Let's just say north of Seattle, we can save you a couple of centuries. Okay.

Hillary Wilkinson :

Okay. Well, thanks so much for being on tonight. I've really enjoyed chatting with you.

Bryan Seely:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.