S5 Episode 10: A Converlation about Tech and Tweens // Kathy Van Bethuysen, 30-year teacher

“[Parents] had better relationships because they had [better] conversations with their kids.”

- Kathy Van Bethuysen

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

https://www.converlation.com

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:05):

Today’s guest is truly an expert on tweens. She spent nearly 30 years as a fourth grade teacher and had a front row viewing of the impacts technology has had on the children that she taught. Kathy Van Benthuysen is the Chief Product Officer of Converlation, a very creative business name, defined as the exchange of thoughts, ideas, and feelings that build and strengthen relationships. Welcome to the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast, Kathy Van Benthuysen!

Kathy Van Bethuysen (01:00):

Thank you, Hillary. I am delighted to be here.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:04):

Yay. Okay. So Kathy, I'm really interested to hear a little bit about your background. Clearly, we just talked about the educational side, but what got you started with Converlation? How did that come to be?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (01:17):

So, I was, uh, I was teaching and I would, had gone to, uh, grad school online. And, uh, I got a degree in, um, learning design and technology, which is, you know, using technology to, to help with education. And I had met, this computer tech guy, um, five years ago, and he was working on helping families to reduce the influence of technology on their lives. And, um, we just,  joined together and started working on a solution to help families reduce the influence of technology.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:55):

Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. Uh, not unlike the start of healthy screen habits, <laugh> minus, minus the tech expertise. I gotta be honest, <laugh>. So, um, so when I first heard the name Converlation, I thought it was a portmanteau, which is a fun word that I never get to use. So thank you for letting me slip it in here. <laugh>, is it? Or is it a name you guys just created?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (02:21):

So we were, um, we, we had have actually went through an evolution of, of many names and, um, some of them, just, it just didn't work. And we were, kind of sitting together and talking one day about what is it that, you know, we, we wanna do here? And, and people who had gone through activities would say, um, they didn't really talk about the particular activity. They would oftentimes talk about how they had better relationships because they had conversations with their kids. And we were sitting there and we were like, Wow, whoa. Converlation is just one letter away from conversation, but it's catchy where people go, "Oh, wait!" And everyone that we say the name conversation to, they go, Huh. Something about conversations and relationships we're like, Bingo.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:11):

Yeah. So, so slightly portmanteau-ish, <laugh>. Yeah. Okay. I got to say it twice. Okay. <laugh>. So having been a teacher for 30 years in the classroom, you have this like, unique qualification to discuss changes that you witnessed. What, um, what I'm going to call the tech revolution, really. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. And are, are there specific changes that you observed that, that you feel comfortable sharing?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (03:41):

Yeah, you know what, Well, one of the things that I, I think for, for me is when, when I first started teaching, we had like, essentially no technology. Like, we would go to a computer lab and we would, you know, the computer teacher would teach them and we'd come back to the classroom and that, that was pretty much it. And through the years, um, obviously that changed. There became more technology available to the kids. But I think one of the things that I noticed really that, that shocked me with the, um, introduction and then the, uh, you know, the evolution of technology was how kids interacted, with me and with each other. And so one of the things that I did every single morning of my, you know, career, what I would greet the kids at the door and I would say, Good morning.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (04:29):

And, um, Hillary, how are you? And I would, I would expect two things. I would expect a response and I would expect you to look me in the eye. And hopefully they would ask me how I'm doing. But I, I would be okay if we just got the other two things. And in my first 20 years, that was like, every single student could accomplish that probably pretty much on the first day of school, maybe by the second day of school. It wasn't, I didn't have to remind them or ask them. And then as in the last 10 years, I started noticing that kids weren't able to do this, but it was more than that. I would actually have to coach them how to respond appropriately to me. I would say, you know, like, you have to, you have to answer me. You have to look me in the eye, maybe even ask me how I'm doing.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (05:13):

And not just, it wasn't even the first day, it was November and December, I'm still reminding kids, "you need to respond to me". I started keeping track of it as like, towards the end of my career. And in my last year of teaching, uh, one kid on the first day of school was able to look me in the eye and answer my question. Everyone else just had their heads down. And, and I was like, Okay, what, what's the difference? What has changed so dramatically in this time span, kids are still kids. And it was technology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like that, that was the conclusion that I came to is kids had very little access to technology when I first started. And then as you know, towards the end of my career, it was like this unfettered use of technology. And then I saw kids not being able to interact and have conversations.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:02):

Right. And it speaks to that, um, that other thing that we refer to that has kind of emerged during that time that, um, called the empathy gap. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I mean the, the lack of reciprocating, the response of, "Oh, I'm good. How are you?" You know, the connection with one another. Yeah. So, um, very interesting. And I just wanna reiterate, these were fourth graders. These were not, these are not 10th graders, which, you know, that, uh, behavior may have been a little more anticipated. <laugh>

Kathy Van Bethuysen (06:37):

No, I mean, like, I'm hoping, you know, in fourth grade that they're not having phones and yet a lot of them did. Right. A lot of them had phones. I mean, you know, when, when the phone, I would say 2007 is when phones first started coming out. And that was, it was never a problem. And I remember, I, I asked the kids, uh, in my, my last year, I said, How many of you have an iPhone or some type of device? And I would say probably 90% of the kids raised their hands and said that they did. I'm like,

Hillary Wilkinson (07:08):

And what year? Gosh, What year was your last year teaching?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (07:11):

Um, 2021 was my last year.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:13):

Wow.  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It, it that, that tracks

Kathy Van Bethuysen (07:17):

<laugh>. Yeah. I know.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:18):

Okay. So we have to take a break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Kathy, not just for her success stories when trying to connect with kids in tech, but I'm also very interested in hearing kind of like what didn't work.

Ad Break – BARK

Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest is Kathy Van Benthuysen, co-founder of Conversation, an organization whose mission is all about having conversations and building relationships. They offer tools that help people understand the side effects of technology and what it's doing to them and their communities. So let's talk about skill building as you worked with kids and tracked this kind of growing use of tech mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what, like, I I'm sure there are skills that you saw them gaining as well. You know, I mean, it's like we, we've seen two things happen with tech. It's like they're, they've become very fluid in tech, tech, uh, maneuverability, if you will. But then there's also those that are atrophying, like we talked about with the, um, you know, the empathy, et cetera. So what types, what types of things did you see them gaining and which types did you see atrophying?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (08:56):

So, you know what, in the, in the skills of, of gaining, uh, there, there wasn't, there wasn't like a lot of positive stuff because kids were using it for merely entertainment. If they were using it as a tool, then I could say, Okay, well then I'm seeing them, you know, growth here, but it's, it is merely for entertainment. And I felt like we're like, go, we're going in the wrong direction. Cause it doesn't improve knowledge. It's like more used as a crutch. And I like, when I think about like, what, what do we want kids to be able to do? Well, we want them to be able to read cause that's, you know, a life skill. And I, I was just reading this thing recently that 19% of high schoolers can't read. Oh boy. Like, like graduating seniors can't read. I'm like, okay, that's definitely not something that we want. And you know, like math, we want them to be able to do math so that they can get a loan one day or, you know, get a mortgage or, or just how bout simple life things like go to the food store and grocery shopper, pay your rent or pay your phone bill.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:58):

Life skills.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (09:59):

Yeah. We like, we, we want kids to be able to think, not, not, not someone telling them what to think, but how to think, how to problem solve, how to be critical thinkers. And really the use of electronics has really eliminated the need to think because you say, "Hey Hillary, where, you know, how, how big is the Golden Gate bridge?" And you don't go and like look up in something. You're like, "Oh, let me just Google it." And one of the things that we, the way our brains grow is when we have to use them, when we have to like struggle a little bit. And these kids are so used to, "Well, I'll just look it up online." And I'm like, Oh, that's, that's not the, that's not the best thing. And actually the, what you said before about like being able to work with others, like that's, that's a skill.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (10:50):

I don't wanna see that atrophying and it is. Because I, like, I've talked to like some of my teacher friends and they said that like the, and I understand that Covid and the pandemic has, you know, exacerbated things, but kids are coming back to school and they're like, kids have forgotten how to act in the classroom. They've forgotten how to treat each other. And we can blame it on virtual learning. But a lot of them said, I think it's the overuse of technology that what they were able to do at home and the access they had to all of this technology, they all, like, we think that that was really the problem. I mean, like, ultimately we want to  have kids that are productive members of society if they can't read and do math and work together and have all of that, like, how are, how are we gonna have employable kids?

Hillary Wilkinson (11:39):

Right. Right. And how are we gonna be able to move forward together? I mean, we can't have all of these individuals, I mean, individualism is a trait that's totally admired in American culture, but equally important is the ability to come together as united mm-hmm. <affirmative>, hence United States <laugh>, you know, and work together Yeah. For a goal - So what, um, what are some things that you tried to work with getting kids to kind of cooperatively removed tech or gain connection that you saw was, was happening? So, yeah, I would like to, I would like to know if you have tips that worked, but also I'd kind of like to know if you had tips that didn't work. Yeah. Cause unfortunately, you know, as you learn through life, the bigger lessons come from the fumbles and stumbles.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (12:43):

Yeah. Oh, and that's, that's true. I mean, you know, fortunately, or unfortunately, it's, it's when we're kind of stressed in the valley, it's like where we learn more than, um, you know, the mountaintops <laugh>. Um, so some of the things that, that we've looked at and tried, it's what the, what's the experts always tell us to do, Do it in moderation, have self-discipline, track your usage.  There was one recently that I, I read and it was this, you know, this author and said, Suggest that the kids read Plato or Socrates. I'm like, “Oh, okay. Tell tell a 12 year old that tell a 12 year old, let's go read.” And, and it's like, we find that it's like, you know, these tips and tricks that, that just don't work. And you know, something else, unfortunately we found that engaging directly with a family, we had individual success stories.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (13:37):

But until you change the mindset of kids, you're not gonna really affect change. Because the problem is, is you can change like one kid and one family, but they're still affected by every other kid's tech use. So, you know, the tech use in school, it's a distraction for teachers and administrators and they have all these problems. Administrators are spending all this time and resources reacting to the problems. Test scores are going down. Depression is going up. So as anxiety. So even if you're, the good kids are moderating usage, it's the other kids' usage that's out of control that's affecting the good kids. And like I, you know, I, I know that like, there are great parents out there and they're, you know, like I'm, I know listening to your podcast or saying like, But I do monitor my kid. And it's, that's awesome.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (14:26):

And we, I I do it with my own kids, but it's other people's kids that aren't, you know, like on the same mindset that like, maybe we shouldn't be on this technology all the time. That that affects everything. It's really like what, what we have found is that students tech use, kids tech use outside of school affects everything in school. Mm. And there really hasn't been like parents and kids, like haven't linked together that what they're doing on the outside affects everything on the inside. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and I and I, and I think like, there's no roadmap. I mean, think about when you and I grew up, we didn't have all this technology and there's no roadmap. Like, so what do, what do parents do? They, you can't go and ask, you know, your parents or your grandparents and say, What did you do when you know your kid was screaming? Well, they probably have some advice, but when you say, What do you do when your kid is on technology all the time? They're like, “Oh, I don't know. We just, I don't know what to do.” And we're, we're finding like those, you know, just the, the tips and tricks aren't really working and what needs to happen.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:41):

Is, Right. So what, layer do you need to dive down to? Do you think, what, what does need to happen?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (15:48):

So really it's, it's, it's about, it's like about education. It's educating kids and parents on the side effects and unintended consequences of tech use. It's not just tip and tricks. So there's, you know, they need a program that raises their understanding of tech and it's influence and impacts directly on, on their lives. They need to understand that what people post on social media is not reality, but it's, but it's highlight reels. They need the light shined on how tech companies make money. And they need to learn that if it's free, they are the product. Right. And that they're being tracked and manipulated and intentionally hooked all for the benefit of giant tech companies. They need to understand about dopamine, what it is and how it's created. They need to understand about that. Like any drug, and I don't have a phone with me, but cell phones, like it's a drug and it has unintended side effects and consequences.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (16:55):

Like I've heard, I've heard parents say to me in conferences, it'll just work itself out. You know what, Oh yeah, I, I can't worry about it. And then, and then I'm thinking, well, okay, would you give your kid a cigarette at 12 and say, Oh, but when they're 18 it'll work itself out. Are you gonna let 'em drink at 12 and it'll work themself? It's not going to work itself out. We need to, we need to teach them about anxiety and depression and the root cause of it. They need to acquire good tech making decision skills. And the parents and kids not only need to be knowledgeable, but they need to have like peers that are knowledgeable and have the same mindset about tech use

Hillary Wilkinson (17:42):

Uhhuh

Kathy Van Bethuysen (17:42):

<affirmative>. Like they have to be, they have to be educated.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:45):

Right. I, I, yeah, No, I agree with all of that stuff. I recently attended a presentation where <laugh>, the woman who was presenting was holding up her cell phone. And she said, if I was holding a full martini glass or a full wine glass every time that, you know, substitute the phone in my hand for that, you know, that substance of choice, you would look at me and go, that, that lady's got a problem. You know? And she said, We need to shift our thinking mm-hmm. <affirmative> And, and, and I think that helps us as parents hold ourselves accountable. Because I certainly don't want my kids seeing, you know, fill in the blank substance. Anytime I get stressed, anytime I get whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it speaks to that transparency of use with technology where, you know, as, as parents, it's important. We say, Oh, I'm texting, you know, "I'm texting Nana about her birthday dinner Yeah. On Thursday." Or, or you know, just like opening up. It's like when you're teaching a kid to read and you kind of have to open up your brain and just let them know the whole process of reading and writing.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (19:00):

Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:01):

So do you have, um, a few good methods that parents can use to support their kids with acquisition of like, good skills or healthy habits?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (19:11):

So it is really, uh, you know, you hear the, um, you know, how do you buy property? It's like location, location, location for good acquisition of, of good skills. It's education, education, education.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:25):

Spoken like a teacher <laugh>. Yeah.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (19:28):

You, you can't acquire good skills without knowing what the pitfalls are. And tech companies make money by keeping our kids' eyes on their apps, on their games, on their videos, on the TV shows. Kids need knowledge to see what's happening. And that's really what it is. It's like you parents have to be able to, um, do, do the, like the legwork behind and, and come to an understanding and raise their level of awareness about technology and that its impacts on kids' lives.

Hillary Wilkinson (20:06):

So, lots of conversations. Yes. Lots of, And, um, yeah. And I think, I think we have to start teaching brain science with our kids. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just like we teach body parts, honestly. Yeah. You know, I mean, we, we teach, you know, eyes, ears, nose, head, shoulders, knees and toes, <laugh>, et cetera. Yeah. And I think it's okay to really start talking brain science and what is dopamine? What is oxytocin? What is serotonin? You know? Yeah. And, um, no, I, I agree. Okay. So we have to take a short break. I hate to interrupt us, but when we, when we come back, I'm going to ask Kathy Van Benthuyson for her healthy screen habit

Ad Break

Hillary Wilkinson (21:03):

My guest today is Kathy Van Bethuysen, who's passion is helping people communicate and connect with others despite  the influences of technology distracting us, she's an avid softball player and coach. So, do you find yourself using these converlation techniques out on the ball field? Or is it like separate space for you?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (21:32):

No, No. You know what, I, I <laugh>, I'm probably the one person on the team that I'm constantly talking, you know, telling 'em like, this is where the ball's gonna go. This is the next play. And people are like, You know what? We're glad that you do that because sometimes we don't know where the last person hit it, or we don't, we don't not always thinking about where to throw the ball. So Yeah. I'm, I'm always, I'm always talking on the ball field.

Hillary Wilkinson (21:55):

<laugh>, You're narrating.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (21:56):

Yes, yes. Like, all right. Plays to one, no outfield, hit cut <laugh>.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:03):

Oh, I'm very impressed. I know very little about, uh, uh, if it's not a ball sport that my children have played, I, I'm very non, non knowledgeable. <laugh>.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (22:15):

I, I could understand that cuz you know, it's like, it's not, some sports aren't, you know, sports aren't for everybody, but yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson (22:23):

<laugh>, okay, now it's time for a healthy screen habit, which kind of cracks me up because you've been saying the tips and tricks don't work. And I'm like, Oh, well, we're winding up with a tip or takeaway <laugh> that our listeners

Kathy Van Bethuysen (22:36):

No, but no, this is something that, see when I say, when we say tips and tricks, it's like something that people aren't going to even try mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I'm like, okay, this is something that, hang on, ask me and then I'll tell you <laugh>.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:51):

Gotcha. Gotcha. Ok. So this is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. And so do you have one you can share with us today?

Kathy Van Bethuysen (23:04):

Yes. I think a great one is enable gray screen. And it's the simplest thing that you can do that will have a dramatic impact on how you engage with technology and, and try it, try it for a day. And it's, it's amazing because your phone,

Hillary Wilkinson (23:23):

It's gross.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (23:24):

Yeah. It does not look inviting and you will not pick it up as much.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:30):

I agree. It's, and it speaks to that, uh, persuasive design that we all know is in place and the reason why colors are used the way they are with notifications, et cetera. But, um, I agree with you. I engage gray screen and it is like, I have zero interest in looking at the, you know, beautiful kitchens and bathrooms of others. <laugh> that I also start envying and going down the place of why don't I have those?

Hillary Wilkinson (24:04):

It's interesting to me that you have this as your tip because actually just last episode, this was one of the things recommended as well mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it was from Jeannie Sprague, who is one of the co-founders of Healthy Screen Habits. So I, Okay. I feel like it's worth repeating again and again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not unlike when you go to the dentist and they say, "So how many times a week have you been flossing <laugh>?" You know, it's, it's okay for us to get this repeated message. And it's nice to hear people across the industry agreeing on things because we, work together!

Kathy Van Bethuysen (24:46):

I do. I find when something is like, it's, if it's repeated more than once, then I don't know, maybe we should like stop it and listen to it. I used to have this thing in my classroom. I would have, um, it said “speak softly”. And I had it three different places in big, you know, block letters. And I had three different places in the room. And I would say to the class, right in the beginning of, of the school year, I have something up here three times. Can you find it? And then, you know, they're like, Oh, speak softly. And I said, “You know, why do you think that's up there three times?” And some, someone always goes, “Oh, well, because it's important.” And I'm like, “You don't need to raise your voice. You don't need to yell. Like, I'll never do that. There's no reason for any of us to, we're all in this one environment together. We don't need to raise our voices.” And like, and I do, and I think if we hear something more than one time, I always go, Hm, what are I hearing that again? So it's like, Oh, engage gray screen. Oh, I, I think I heard that last week.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:39):

Right. Right. Maybe try it this week if you didn't last <laugh>. Yeah.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (25:43):

And just try it for a day. You don't have to do it for a week. Just try it for a day.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:47):

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And that way you can tell if you're like entering a season that you feel like, Oh, I really wanna be present mm-hmm. <affirmative> with my family, and I don't want to be scrolling. I don't want to, you know, it helps, it helps set up some guardrails.

Kathy Van Bethuysen (26:02):

Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:05):

So if you would like more information about Converlation and the tools they offer, please look them up @converlation.com. As always, I will link this information in the show notes, which you can find by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click on the podcast button at the top of the page and scroll down to find this episode where you'll also find a complete transcript of this conversation. Kathy, thank you so much for chatting with me today. I don't know if it qualifies as a converlation, but it was a conversation that I enjoyed!

Kathy Van Bethuysen (26:41):

No, this is, this is definitely a converlation. Thank you so much, Hillary. I appreciate the time.