S5 Episode 3: Boys and Body Image - How Tech Is Changing Things // Charlotte Markey, Ph.D.

“We really need to look at (and teach our kids) what we're seeing on social media with a critical eye and evaluate it, and evaluate WHY is someone sharing it.”

- Charlotte Markey, PhD

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

Books Mentioned:

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:04):

This season, we're taking a deep dive into social media and exploring how to create the healthiest habits to enjoy using it productively as well as gain tools that will help put up some of those guardrails that some of us need surrounding the use of it. As a professor of psychology and Director of the Health Sciences Center at Rutgers university. My guest today is uniquely qualified to talk about the effects social media is having upon our youth's developing self image for 25 years, she's been doing research, examining eating behaviors and body image. Her latest book is called Being You the Body Image Book For Boys published in 2022. It's a book that takes into account, not just the physical changes that happened during puberty for boys, but also in the influence that social media has had upon the development of many young men's self images. So of course I was super intrigued. This is the time of year that many parents are getting hit with puberty questions, especially our middle schoolers are coming back, or maybe that uncomfortable stage of you think the puberty questions should start coming, but nothing is happening. So this book was too good not to share. Welcome to the healthy screen habits podcast, Dr. Charlotte Markey.

Charlotte Markey PhD (01:36):

Thank you so much for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:39):

Charlotte. I'm intrigued to know what brought you to write this book. You previously wrote the Body Image Book for Girls. And why did you feel the need to do a version for boys?

Charlotte Markey PhD (01:52):

It's interesting because people seem to be surprised that boys have these concerns. And yet I was talking with my editor about the version for boys, as soon as we started talking about the book for girls. So it was really always in the works, always being planned. Um, and we know that, that boy's body image concerns. They manifest differently than girls, but they're really just as prevalent. Um, and the main reason to separate and have more than one book is just because we do talk about puberty in the books and, um, some physical development issues. And because there are some different issues. There's a lot of overlap though, too, actually.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:37):

Yeah, no, I'm grateful to see more. I feel like there are more and more books coming out that are boy specific because I can tell you when my son was, you know, entering these new stages, it seemed like there's a big niche that's been covered for girls, but not so many of these really good resources for boys. So thank you. It is definitely needed. Now, I I'd like to explore this term body image. So you, you hear it being tossed around.  I feel like but there's no one better than you to define it. Explain to us: what is body image?

Charlotte Markey PhD (03:18):

Would our, our thoughts and feelings about our bodies. But I think that that's somewhat incomplete and, and actually paint some more superficial picture of what body image is and is actually true because our body image really affects how we interact with other people. It affects our health behaviors, how we're eating, how we're exercising and a variety of other things we might do to try to shape how we appear. Um, and it's really highly associated with just mental health in general. And so when people think about body image, I think they all too often think about an adolescent girl. Who's really concerned about what she's wearing or her weight, but really what we mean as psychologists is just sort of, how do we feel in our own skin? Are we comfortable with ourselves?

Hillary Wilkinson (04:10):

Okay.

Charlotte Markey PhD (04:10):

It's really sort of a broader mental health, um, variable.

Hillary Wilkinson (04:16):

Mm. Okay. And so it kind of expanding on that. How important do you feel the role or how is social media affecting kids' body image?   What's the role that you see it playing?

Charlotte Markey PhD (04:35):

I mean, our kids are on social media a lot and, um, I'm sure your audience is well aware of just the hours per day, that the average tween and teen may be on social media. And so it's a pervasive influence. We really can't pretend that it's not relevant. Um, it's omnipresent. And we know that for the most part, it's not a positive influence on, uh, body image or mental health more generally. But what's, I think really important to say is that it doesn't have to be a negative influence really. I think it's really about what do we do with social media? What do we do on social media? And that's where we really need to focus because we're not gonna get rid of social media. Right. It's not going anywhere.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:28):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. So, um, in, I found it really interesting. You include this small portion in the book. I mean, I know we're, I, I know we're supposed to be focusing on social media <laugh> but I wanted to talk about this part too. Cause I thought it was really interesting. You include this small part about the role of avatars in video games and body comparison with boys. And I found this to be really interesting partially because  honestly, because we at healthy screen habits are typically contacted by parents of children who identify as boys who are much more concerned with video game usage than social media use. The social media use typically trends more heavy towards use by teens and tweens who identify as girls. And so that being said <laugh> how do you see video games affecting self images of, of kids who identify as boys simply because this is the Body Book For Boys is why I'm asking that.

Charlotte Markey PhD (06:44):

Yeah, it's so interesting because we think of video games as potentially being a negative influence when it comes to like boys aggressive behaviors. Right. And that's not really my, my specialty so much. Um, but, but we know that that research also, I think presents like a pretty muddled picture of, of what may be going on. And there's not as much research looking at body image in video game use. Um, because boys are more likely to play video games and people think boys don't have body image issues. And so that's really prevented there from being a ton of research in this area. But the few studies we have do suggest that these avatars are, are kind of problematic and that just like, um, you know, action figures that young boys play with. They're just so muscular, they're so big. They do not look like we, of people that we'll ever meet, uh, in our lifetime probably. And they suggest to boys that this is what's important, right? Having these muscles being strong, being tough, um, being aggressive, all of that is, is part of masculinity. And I think that people are surprised to, to realize, or to even consider, you know, maybe we need to counter those messages or talk to our boys about choosing different avatars, even spend less time with these unrealistic avatars of course spend less time with video games would be, would be nice too. But sometimes you have to go for,

Hillary Wilkinson (08:19):

You've got a, a

Charlotte Markey PhD (08:20):

Realistic fix

Hillary Wilkinson (08:21):

<laugh> I was gonna say, meet 'em where they're at!

Charlotte Markey PhD (08:23):

Right, exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:25):

We're all working together towards this. But I, I like that idea. I like that idea of experimenting with different avatars, choosing different character types, step, body types, you know, and seeing that, I don't know that you can achieve the same things, you know, regardless of I think that's fantastic!

Charlotte Markey PhD (08:48):

My son, um, he's almost 17 now, but when he was a little bit younger, he, we talked to him and he was playing with female avatars and I kind of thought that that was like a, an interesting way to be like, no, no, don't pick these big bulky men, like see what tough women can do.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:06):

<laugh> yeah, yeah.

Charlotte Markey PhD (09:08):

Um, just to make, just mix it up, you know, I'm not sure that that's the, the, the best approach, but it seemed like an interesting way to, to kind of mix up the, the influence there.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:18):

And I think it achieves two things. It's, um, you're both meeting them where they're at and it's introducing these ideas in a playful format, which is always when you get a better, a better reception, you know?

Charlotte Markey PhD (09:32):

Yeah. If you're really serious and all media is bad, you know, as you know, that's just, they just tune you out.

Hillary Wilkinson (09:39):

Right. Right. So we have to take a break, but when we come back, we're gonna dive deeper into self-image, social media and this really handy acronym for a tool that Dr. Charlotte Markey first introduced in psychology today.

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Hillary Wilkinson (10:11):

My guest is Dr. Charlotte Markey, a mom of two who has a vested interest in the way tweens and teen's self-image formation is being affected by online use and images. The books she most recently published is most definitely a family affair. One of the co-authors is her husband, so totally off topic, but how was that?

Charlotte Markey PhD (10:43):

<laugh> <laugh> well, I can definitely say my husband and I have different working styles. <laugh> um, so, you know, I like to do everything really in advance and I have a, a, a schedule for my writing projects and he likes to do everything at the last minute <laugh> and so, um, I got a little tense a few times, but, um, he's a great writer and he's very critical of, of anything that I put together. And, you know, sometimes it's nice when you're working on any kind of, I think creative project, you need people who will tell you the truth.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:20):

Yes. You know, it's so hard to hear, but it is such valid feed. It's valuable feedback.

Charlotte Markey PhD (11:26):

Yeah. You just need people who are like, "Oh, that doesn't sound good. Or that doesn't make sense. So people aren't gonna like that." Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so he's, he's great for that.

Hillary Wilkinson (11:35):

<laugh> yeah. And different working styles. I often feel like they really do end up complimenting each other, so yay. <laugh> for sure. But yeah, I thought that was fun. Fun to see. Yeah. Okay. In Chapter 10, the title is Making A Difference. And in this, this chapter, you talk about being the change and having reasons for hope as well as you have. Just what I think like our audience would really value is you have these two pages of positive body image resources. And so I kind of, I wanted to flesh out with you, what was the criteria for kind of like making the cut of these influencers to make these two pages?

Charlotte Markey PhD (12:20):

That's a good question. And, you know, I'm really lucky because I'm a professor and I work with undergraduates. So a lot of, um, young people in their late teens and early twenties. And, um, they've been involved in all of my book projects and they read and help me. And so this was something they helped with.

Hillary Wilkinson (12:38):

So that totally makes sense to me because it's a hip read. Like there's a there's, you know, like it's very relevant. And I was thinking like, oh, wow, like you've really got your finger on the pulse here. So it makes well that

Charlotte Markey PhD (12:52):

Too, of course. Yeah,

Hillary Wilkinson (12:53):

Of course, of course. Right. <laugh>

Charlotte Markey PhD (12:56):

No, I mean, and, and my students, I were pretty comfortable and they also, I think typically, um, you know, some of them will work with me for years. And so they're, they get pretty good at saying like, no, Uhuh, this is, you know, not the right tone or, um, this will not kids won't like this. Um, and, and I do a lot of focus grouping with the material. So I ask the target readership to read it. And, um, that really helps too, because again, I think just, it has to be an iterative process when you're trying to get, um, you know, evidence based information to people. You have to make it accessible and palatable in a way that they'll actually then read it. Right. Um, but in terms of like the influencer list that, that started, I think mostly with my students going online, um, some of them, I knew people I follow. So my, you know, social media space probably looks really different than the average persons in that so much of it is related to my work. And there are people who are, you know, mental health professionals and, um, body positives or influencers. So, um, so some of the people I know from, from my own experiences, but most of it is just my, my, um, research assistants then also looking for people who, um, put out consistent, positive, really mental health messages, I think.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:22):

Yeah. And I think that's so important to really kind of vet your influencers on social media, because a lot there's a whole lot of advice being thrown out there from very non-credentialed individuals. So that's why I appreciated this sort of vetted list from, from you where people can and go, like, see, oh, okay, these, these actually are body positive folks and who are gonna be talking about healthy things, not, you know, engaging in challenges and things that can lead to harm. Yeah. Yeah.

Charlotte Markey PhD (14:56):

And, you know, there's more and more of these people out there. Um, and so I think, you know, some of what's really important as we parents is to make sure they realize sort of the diversity of influences and try to get them to connect with some of these positive influences. We know that that really matters.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:20):

I totally agree. And I think this is a really great segue. <laugh> into this whole concept of media literacy and becoming media literate with this generation. And it's kind of a bit amorphous it, it depends on what corner of online life you're talking about, but  if we are sticking to the social media realm, because it's, um, you know, Healthy Screen Habits Podcast, <laugh>, what are the things that you would use to define media literacy?

Charlotte Markey PhD (16:00):

Yeah, you're right. It's, it's sort of a vague term at times, but I think media literacy really is being critical. Right. So if we had to just provide a simple definition of media literacy, it's approaching the media, you use with a critical eye and not accepting everything you see as truth. Right? I think as we get older, we get better at this because we have more life experience, but young people, the default is not necessarily to be critical. The default is to assume that if someone has a platform, if someone's in a commercial even, um, that then someone must have vetted it somewhere. Right? That there's someone somewhere that's like regulating the information being provided. And unfortunately that's just simply not true Mm-hmm <affirmative> in most spaces, especially when it comes to social media.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:57):

Yeah. And so you have a whole section on becoming media literate and you talk about this emphasis on, um, like you said, applying kind of a critical eye and you, um, talk about also the importance of paying attention to why images are presented the way they are and paying attention to the way they make you feel. Which I think is really, really important. So, um, I am a lover of acronyms as pneumonic devices and you have a great one when we're talking about taking steps to buffer kind of negative effects from the media, you use this acronym of FACE. And can we go over that?

Charlotte Markey PhD (17:51):

Yeah, I would love to, um, so F the stands for Filtering and this always throws people because it's a completely different filtering than, um, most people are used to, to thinking of. And it really comes from protective filtering, which is a phrase that body image scientists use and protective filtering means that we need to protect ourselves from harmful influences on our mental health and our body image in particular, by, by filtering those influences out. And so if there are people we're following, let's say on Instagram, and we realize that when we see what they're sharing, we always kind of feel bad. Right. Um, then we wanna just filter them out. <laugh> we wanna get rid of those things. It doesn't mean again that we get rid of all of it necessarily, but we need to just filter it. And I sometimes talk about having an experience in my early adulthood, um, where this first became apparent to me long before this phrase protective filtering existed. And I remember being, you know, a young woman and like getting the Victoria's Secret catalog in the mail, like with some regularity, it felt like they were just always showing up and I would look at it and think like, I will just never look anything like this. And I would feel terrible about, you know, these women with these ridiculous proportions, um, looking so amazing. And then I remember having this realization one day that like, I just don't have to look at this anymore. I can just, as soon as it comes, throw it out.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:27):

Yeah.

Charlotte Markey PhD (19:28):

And it was really freeing. And I know it's a really silly example and no one gets catalogs anymore.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:35):

No, I think it's relatable. Yeah.

Charlotte Markey PhD (19:38):

It's the same concept. Like don't open it, throw it out. Yeah. And you may be amazed at how freeing that is because it does protect you when you filter out those influences.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:50):

Yeah. And I think, you know, we spend some time talking about, um, the importance of letting the algorithms work for you, you know? Yeah. Where a hundred, if you are intentionally blocking these, these triggering feeds for you or these feeds that you're no longer feeling are serving you. If you are exactly. If you are continually blocking them, the algorithms will no longer keep sending them to you. So this goes back to circle it back around. It kind of goes back to that whole concept of media literacy, which is this, you know, wiggly, wiggly term. But, um, I, I think that protective filtering phrase is really important. So that's the F in face. You wanna take us through, through A.

Charlotte Markey PhD (20:46):

<laugh>. Yeah. So, so A is Avoiding. And again, I, I never ever tell people with media, like you need to avoid it all together, cuz I think that's completely unrealistic. And especially with young people, because there are benefits in terms of social connection and education and information, um, that come from even social media. Um, but we do need to set some boundaries. And so we need to avoid social media sometimes. And as parents we can help our kids do that. You know, whether it be, you know, phones at the dinner table for God's sake or you know, no phones in your room at night, which is a battle I keep losing. Um, as a parent, I will admit. Um, but you know, whatever those parameters are. Um, sometimes if I'm driving a kid somewhere, I say no off your phone, you have to talk to me.

Charlotte Markey PhD (21:37):

Um, and I think that that's really important to just have that freedom. Also that's brought to you by just avoiding all of it for even little bits of time, even if it's not a full day. Um, and there is some really interesting research that speaks to the benefits of this and that when, um, teens are sometimes in part of research projects asked to avoid, um, social media, they report feeling better and again, kind of relieved it's like someone else tells you, you can't do this. Right. And so they don't, and they don't have to create those boundaries for themselves. And it's just kind of a relief to have less mental space being occupied.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:19):

Yeah. Why that's yeah. It's that setting up of the guardrails that we were talking about mm-hmm <affirmative> and I mean think how stressful it is to drive on an unmarked road or, or on a road where they're doing construction and the lines have gotten all cattywampus and you're looking and going, ah, where do I go? Where do I go? We have to remember those that, that a, that avoiding or that setting, that boundaries is just simply putting up boundaries, setting up those, those K-rails so that our kids can go, okay, this is the line I drive in <laugh>

Charlotte Markey PhD (22:51):

So right. Exactly. Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:53):

Yeah. And how about C? So we've got Filtering, Avoiding which is the same as setting boundaries and then C and face.

Charlotte Markey PhD (23:02):

So C is for Careful of Comparisons. And what I often like to say is, you know, if we use social media and our response to it was, oh, that's so great. She looks wonderful. Or she just got her new car. I'm so happy for her. If right. If our, if our response to looking at what other people were doing and looking like on social media was just this sort of positive sense of like, oh, I'm so happy for them. Right. Then I don't really know that social media would be all that problematic. But instead what we tend to do is we immediately compare ourselves. It's just a very human impulse. It doesn't mean we're bad people. It's what everyone does. We tend to compare. And so we see someone looking amazing or doing something exciting and we feel lesser than them. And Careful of Comparisons is a reminder, who are you comparing yourself to? Right. Because so many of those people making us feel bad are not good comparisons in the first place. It's ridiculous. Right. I mean, if you have a celebrity or an influencer with, you know, a lighting guy and a, um, a personal chef and a stylist and whatever, it may be like, those are not our peers, the average person, like it's ridiculous to think we would be comparing ourselves to these people and then feeling bad about it.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:30):

Right. Right. And I have found that it's funny, this, this comparison thing, I think, was it Roosevelt who said "Comparison is the thief of joy"? I, um, I, I have found that I go through kind of phases where sometimes there are feeds that I'm really interested. And I like, and then other times those, those same feeds are the ones that I find myself getting wrapped up. I don't know if it's what's going on in my own life or what, but it's like, it's, that's when I start doing the comparison thing. So sometimes just hitting that mute button on the social media can, can help you regulate that as well.

Charlotte Markey PhD (25:15):

Yeah. And I think just remember too, that a lot of what we see, these are people who it's their job to look good and to be sharing fabulous content, like that's their job.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:27):

Right.

Charlotte Markey PhD (25:28):

Our job, you know, is to live a very full and varied life. It's, it's not, that's not all we do with our days. Um, and, and so I think when you allow yourself to, to really think about like, who am I comparing myself to, and filter it out, but you know, kind of keeping that perspective.

Hillary Wilkinson (25:51):

Yeah. And remembering that we're seeing highlight reels that, of course, you know, that particularly if we go, if we go back to body image and boys, we're seeing pictures that guys are presenting after the workout, it's when they're the most pumped up and glistening and all of that, it's not, you know, they're just rolled outta bed photos.

Charlotte Markey PhD (26:12):

For sure - Right? Yes. And even the ones that people are pretending they just roll out bed or whatever. A lot of times, that's not, that's not the reality either. So,

Hillary Wilkinson (26:21):

Right. So we've got Filtering, Avoiding, Comparison and take us into E for FACE.

Charlotte Markey PhD (26:30):

So E is really evaluating. And this is some of what we talked about when we talked about media literacy. We really need to look at, um, what we're seeing on social media with a critical eye and evaluate it and evaluate why is someone sharing it? How is it making me feel? And oftentimes what are they selling? And there's just, as we know, a lot of product placement, a lot of branding, a lot of ulterior motives. And I know it sounds kind of cynical and conspiratorial to, to bring up, but it's the reality is that, you know, this is market driven, partly. So, um, we need to really evaluate what we're seeing again, in order to protect our own sense of self.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:14):

I agree. Um, so thank you for sharing all the, the F the, a, the C and the E. And we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I am going to ask Dr. Markey for her healthy screen habit!

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Hillary Wilkinson (27:40):

My guest today is a world leading expert in body image research. Today, we've listened to her shared just a few things that can be found in her latest book, Being You: The Body Image Book for Boys, for the purpose of this episode, I've focused on healthy screen habits and online resources, but I assure you, there are so much more information about all things, boy, in this book. So Charlotte, on every episode, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, and this is a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have a healthy screen habit to share with us today?

Charlotte Markey PhD (28:23):

Yeah. So I know if it's a habit in that it's not the sort of thing you do every day necessarily. It's not that sort of a habit, but one thing I really like to recommend that I think is really valuable that I have done, um, is as a parent to sit down with your tween or teen and just ask them to show you their newsfeed, just sort of sit there with them. And maybe it's a minute, maybe it's half hour even, but ask questions, let them tell you who people are, um, kind of get on their level, ask why they're following people, um, and have a conversation because I think that as parents, we're all too quick to just try to set boundaries, get kids to, you know, listen to us, but we don't really engage with their content. And when we kind of, you know, talk to them about who are they interested in?

Charlotte Markey PhD (29:22):

Who is that musical artist? Like, I mean, I don't know a lot of these people are at this point in my life. Right. Um, that my kids find so interesting, but kids like to be the expert. And so they get to tell you who they're interested in, why. Why they're following them and you get to raise sort of some critiques that as the parent, too, if you're careful about it and say like, oh, well, why are you following that person? Or, um, that doesn't seem like authentic information or, um, oh, I really like, you know, that person's music or whatever it may be, but just sort of engage them in learning about their social media world by letting them show you. Um, and I think that it, it can do a lot for your relationship with your kid too, to just understand the media, the celebrities, the people that they like. Um, yeah. And it can be fun!

Hillary Wilkinson (30:20):

Yeah, for sure. I love this for many reasons. <laugh> for one, um, I love that you're coming from a place of curiosity and coming from a place of curiosity tends to withhold judgment. So I think our kids are so hyper sensitized to, "Ugh, they're not gonna like this. They're gonna make me stop" or whatever, you know, I mean, I think coming from a place of curiosity is like a really just great place to start conversation. And yeah, I also like that, you know, one of the things that, um, I think it's important that we just remember and remember, and remember is that these talks about technology have to be ongoing and they have to be kind of just lots of little talks all the time. It's like sipping water to stay hydrated. You know, you can't drink a gallon of water on Wednesday and think you're gonna be fine on Saturday. So it's just lots of sips of water, but all of those tech talks don't have to be "porn is bad!" <Laugh> right. "You're watching, you're, you're playing too many video games." "You're doing this, you're doing that." But engaging in this way, you're still allowing time for these conversations in tech about technology, but doing so in a more, like I said, like playful, engaging, informational seeking kind of a way. I, I love this habit. It's a great one.

Charlotte Markey PhD (31:53):

Yeah. And you know, I do find too that I'm surprised sometimes once you get a teenager talking about, you know, the musical artists say like, or the actors or actresses they like, or whatever they're into, um, that, you know, you learn something I'm feel so outta touch with popular culture when I'm talking to teenagers. So it's kind of fun to learn from them, but it's also just to, I think really great to understand sort of their world in that way.

Hillary Wilkinson (32:25):

Um, right, right. Because there, I think a lot of times, many of the artists that are being followed, um, in this generation, it's been my experience at least are, um, people who are standing for social change or representation in areas that, um, I'm really proud of the reason why my children are, are supporting these artists and, you know, and promoting the like cultural change or that, I mean it, and so I'm like, oh, this is, this is bigger than just, "this is cool", you know? Yeah. But when you ask the short question it's, oh, it's cool. You know, but it's like, it takes time to sit and, and kinda tease out.

Charlotte Markey PhD (33:18):

I know. I was shocked. I think the first time I did this with my daughter, I realized she was following a couple of politicians and she was, you know, 12 or something. And I thought, I didn't know about any politicians when I was 12, I don't think. Right, right, right. I mean, I didn't really have a political identity until I was almost 30, perhaps. So I think it's really amazing that young people have exposure to some of this information. That's the upside of technology and, and media is that I do think young people have access to some good information too, and we don't want to forget that. And we want to encourage it. We wanna talk to them about it

Hillary Wilkinson (33:59):

Completely. And it all circles back to that media literacy, just like you were talking about <laugh> okay. As always a complete transcript of this episode, as well as links to any of the books mentioned, can be found in today's show notes. You can find these on HealthyScreenHabits.org, click on the podcast button and use the dropdown menu to find this episode. Charlotte, I can't thank you enough for being here as we head into fall and hope that any parent of a middle school boy, who's looking for answers or a tool to help their child move through this next stage of development will be sure to check out your book.

Charlotte Markey PhD (34:42):

Please do! I really think we need to just encourage more conversation about mental health and health in general among boys too.

Hillary Wilkinson (34:50):

I love it. Yes. I could not agree with you more. Thank you.

Charlotte Markey PhD (34:54):

Thank you.