Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

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Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:03):

As half the husband, wife, super duo who founded the organization Talk More. Tech Less. My guest today trains school districts and communities on how to #techresponsibly through in person and online courses. She and her husband recognize they are walking this road of digital wellness and parenting alongside all parents and kids together, living in this digital world. Approaching this issue with grace is their goal. I think approaching anything with grace is a worthy goal. One, which I continue to like, bang my head and stub my toes on. So, so I may have contacted her for, you know, my own purposes. I'm very interested in learning your approach and I'm thrilled to welcome Dawn Wible.

Dawn Wible (00:59):

Thank you so much for having me today, Hillary.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:04):

Great. Okay. So Dawn, no surprise, as a podcast host, I love talking and the most, I, I mean like the most often used comment on, I would say all my childhood report cards were Hillary needs to talk less and focus on her work. So, so whenI heard of your organization, and the first two words of the name are actually talk more. I was like, I'm in, who are these people? Where have you been all my life? So let's start there. Where did you guys, or I'm sorry, when did you guys get started and what sort of brought you to this digital wellness niche?

Dawn Wible (01:44):

Yes, I love that, Hillary. That's hilarious. Talk more. That's right. <laugh> talk more, listen more. All this communication. So that's really our goal is heavy on communication in a digital world. We, my husband and I both have worked with teenagers. I was a former educator and he runs a nonprofit, it's mentoring junior high and high school boys. And so working with kids for 25 years, we were on, you know, boots on the ground, seeing the shift happen when handhelds started. Um, so to see, you know, computers go into everybody's hands, um, and become really an extension of ourselves, which is what happens with cell phones. So all of these things were playing out in the lives of the kids that we were, um, working with and just living among.

Dawn Wible (02:45):

And, um, my husband has a summer camp, and so as we were at the summer camp it for, it's one week and they had to turn in their cell phones at the beginning of the week. So for years that was no big deal cause it was just flip phones and some kids didn't even have phones. And over the years, as we, um, just saw it get harder and harder for them to turn in the phone, that's when we really started to realize this is not just an issue with these kids. Um, it's not just an issue with us in our own marriage. It's not just an issue in our state, in our city. This is global. It's happening across the board, um, to everyone culturally. So I started digging in and, and just looking at research. Um, it, it started really organically with the boys we were working with.

Dawn Wible (03:32):

They were saying we're up at two in the morning on, that was when Twitter was popular on Twitter, um, where we're not getting good sleep, we're not engaging with our family at the dinner table anymore. Like, everybody's just on their phones all the time. And so I noticed connection missing culturally when, um, smartphones were in front of us, just the distractions because in my own life and my own story, and in 2020, I actually, uh, went back and did some healing in my own story.

Dawn Wible (04:21):

I am, um, I had like sexual abuse issues, um, early on, early childhood and got healing for those over the years, but just went into deeper healing of: “ Why didn't I have any outcries? Why didn't I talk, where was the connection? Where were my secure attachments and what was happening in those places? Um, and so just kind of molding both of those together. We, we launched Talk More. Tech Less and said, “Where's connection in our lives in our families? How do we reach out to each other? How do we become, um, those secure places when our kids are finding a lot of entertainment elsewhere?” Um, and so it started at a camp and it's 10 years later, um, just turned into this just saying, let's talk to kids about how to be healthy and safe on their phones and how to have a place, um, a safe place to talk to somebody about what's going on, on their technology.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:31):

Thank you for sharing your story, even the, the, the highs and the lows. So I think we don't appreciate the highs unless we, know some of the lows. So thank you for sharing that. Nice. Right. Um, I'm really, uh, you said the word secure attachment, and I just like, you know, like lightning bells went off in my brain because I, uh, as an, my focus has always been on early childhood mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, I think that the further we go down this path of parenting in our digital world, the more we recognize that need for secure attachment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> knowing that many, many of our listeners are parents themself, I just, I really wanna know like, what does your house look like?

Hillary Wilkinson (06:34):

You're the mom of three boys. You have, I'm like, okay, so I, uh, your, your boys are younger than my children.  When people talk about, “we're navigating these waters that nobody ever has” -  as far as parenting in the digital age. But I have to tell you, I think that's, I think that's the norm going forward as far as parenting in the digital age because the technology changes so fast. I mean, the stuff that I was very concerned about when my kiddos were, you know, eight and four or TW eight and 12, are very different now than the parents of today who have eight year olds. So it's, but I do think that the more you go into it, the more it just, it's all about the relationship. Right. And I'm going off, I'm getting a little tangential here, but, uh, <laugh>, so

Dawn Wible (07:43):

No, you're right.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:44):

Let's, let's bring it to, to your family, just so people can have a peek at what a digital wellness experts parenting techniques are. Like do you have screen limits in your family?

Dawn Wible (07:56):

Yes, our boys are all in public school. I have, you said they're a little bit younger. I have a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary. So we are spread out. Um, and I live in the van. I live in the car <laugh>, um, picking them up and driving um places and dropping them off. My oldest just got his license, so he's driving now, which is a game changer for us.

Dawn Wible (08:52):

But yes, so they have, um, large public schools. Lots of their friends are very active on technology, and we did wait, um, we delayed as long as we could. And then as we started to see just social cues and different things like that, we started to introduce very slowly technology in different ways. So of course we have TV, we have, you know, you ask what does my home look like? We have Netflix, we watch series together. I love actually having movie night or a show that we all like to gather around, watch episodes together. Um, my oldest son, we waited for Snapchat and he just now in high school got it. But like I said, some of their, we, we really live among a community that we communicate heavily with and, uh, but everybody's on different, everybody's on different, um, levels, different worlds, and you just have to work out what your family needs and really be specific and strategic per kid too.

Dawn Wible (09:57):

So my youngest, he doesn't have access to a phone. He has, hand me down phones that have some games on him. There's some, um, YouTube, um, influencers that his brother might watch, um, Dude Perfect. Or something like that, that he might participate in. But as they got older, we just delayed as long as we could. And as they got older and it was just what their friends are socially doing and we keep a good eye on 'em and keep a good eye on their phones and allow them to be a part of the digital world in that way. So they are definitely, there is technology in our house, you know, some people say, well, you know, it sounds like no tech, but it's Tech Less, it's not no tech, you know, it's not getting the technology outta your house. There's a lot of conversations around what our technology looks like in, in my home.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:54):

Um, so you mentioned like, you know, you've, you have a very strong community where you live and um, I just remember when, when my son in particular was younger, we, I had very strong feelings, you know, and again, this is my family's value - I have very strong feelings against first person shooter games. How do you negotiate that when, like what, like play dates? I mean, I know your guys are older, some of the, some of the ones are older, so you can't, I mean, they're no longer called play dates, they're more hangouts, you know. Yes. But when they do go hang out or

Dawn Wible (11:40):

They do not like the name play date!

Hillary Wilkinson (11:41):

<laugh>. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, when they do go hang out at other friends' houses, like do you, do you talk to the other parents? Do you, well, like, I'm just wondering like what does this look like 

for you?

Dawn Wible (11:55):

I think that as they're younger in the elementary, even junior high ages, there's a lot of communication and conversations with other families and with other parents about what your kid's allowed to do, and like you said, every family is, is completely on different pages about it. Some are fine with it. Um, but I just say all the time normalize talking about it often with your kids because they're gonna be in situations where you have normalized and talked about these things long enough, whether it's first person shooting games, or if it's pornography, um, some of the stuff that they're getting exposed to, whether it's sexting, different things like that. You have normalized in an age appropriate way talking to them about those things you're empowering them enough by the time they're in high school to be making those decisions.

Dawn Wible (13:11):

Cuz eventually they're gonna be in college and they're gonna be making these decisions. I've had a lot of conversations with parents that have said, “I don't, my kid will never have, um, you know, this app or that app or never play this or never do that.” And I always say, you know, act, every kid is gonna have, some kids are gonna be drawn to something, some kids are gonna be drawn to others. And my own home are three boys are very different and they're drawn to very d my middle doesn't care a thing about social media. He'll get people's phone numbers and text them, but his older brother was like, nobody texts mom. Everybody's doing DMs and Snapchats. And I know this because I know that I know the research and I know, um, kids modes of communication. And so every one of our kids is going to be different and drawn to different things.

Dawn Wible (14:03):

And in those areas is where we let that conversation be led. So having heavy conversations around what, what your family values are and what you say, we say no to this. You know, if you're 21 and you decide that this is something you wanna do, of course you can. But in my house, in our house, this is our family value and we're saying no to this. So when you go into someone else's house and they're exposing you to this, you know what to say yes to and what to say no to as you're old, as they're older. But like I said, when they're younger, there's heavy communication between the parents for sure. And then you're empowering them as they get older to, to be the ones to have those conversations of standing up.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:46):

Right. And I know for, um, from my experience with parenting with younger kids, it also really helped to have just kind of a core group of friends that we all agreed on the same thing. We all agreed our kids were not going to get phones until after eighth grade until, you know, I mean, and so we, we kind of, it, it gave you kind of a leg to stand on as a, as a mom, <laugh>, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> where, um, so when you're, when your child has, you know, is doing the, “Everyone's got whatever.”  That conversation never even enters because they know that, you know, that oh no, so and so doesn't have a phone and so and so doesn't have a phone. Right. And it, um, you know, and also it helps them kind of, the, the boys that we had stated that with have kind of this, you know, very tight bond that I'm sure evolved around much complaining about their mothers, but that's fine. They're all good guys!

Dawn Wible (15:55):

Oh, yes. Oh yes. We definitely get that side of it.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:59):

<laugh>. Ok. So we have to take a break, but when we come back, we're going to take kind of a deeper dive into some facts and stats surrounding digital wellness.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest is Dawn Wible, founder of Talk More Tech Less a digital wellness organization that provides tools and resources for families and communities to, I love this #techresponsibly by learning to be healthy and safe on screens. So, you know, we are all about establishing healthy, safe habits for screens. Why do you think we need digital wellness, Dawn?

Dawn Wible (19:44):

Yeah, so really seeing in 2017 the studies that came out about the rise of anxiety and depression being in sync with the rise of social media and smartphones that really brought to the public on the forefront of what we were already seeing in the online safety world in training students and schools and seeing it in our own families, in our own friend groups. Um, we know that 96% of the world owns a cell phone. I mean, that is really everybody. That's, that's huge. So this is highly impacting our lives. Um, our human bodies are made biologically a certain way. Our social systems are made a certain way and putting smartphones in our hands at all times, 22 hours a day. Our, our smartphones are near us 22 out of the 24 hours. Like where are they the other two hours? <laugh> They really are with us at all times!

Dawn Wible (20:42):

And that is affecting our own wellbeing, our own, uh, bodies, minds. And it's also affecting our relationships. It's, it's affecting the people in our lives. And so if there's a way for us to say, yes, let's set up our lives, um, and this is what digital wellness is, digital flourishing is set up our lives to where we go into our technology feeling good and can come out of our technology feeling good, then we know that we've set up good habits around what we're, what we're using our technology for. And that, you know, I talked earlier about all of the conversations we're having with our kids, but that's a big part of it is saying, you wanna feel good, right? Well, here's the statistics on why you don't mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's, uh, a statistic that says seven outta 10 people report some level of anxiety when disconnected from their phone.

Dawn Wible (21:41):

Um, but there is a science around having a home for your phone, having a separate place for your phone. We started with the boys at camp using a detox box. So they built these wooden boxes and, um, they would set their phones. We would say set your phone in the detox box at bedtime so it can recharge while you recharge, you know, away from you out of the room. And then set it in the detox box during meal times. And that way you can gather around and have conversation around your meals. Cuz that was one of the other things that they pointed out was that when we were eating with mom and dad, all of us are on our phones, whether we're at a restaurant or even at home, um, we're not having those conversations. And 15 minutes a day of connection actually statistically lowers the chances of cyber bullying in a kid's life. So that's huge.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:30):

It's amazing. It's so little too!

Dawn Wible (22:33):

15 Minutes. That's a bowl of cereal

Dawn Wible (22:37):

So just asking the good questions and connecting. Maybe it's, you know, when you pick up, um, them from school and you're sitting in the car asking just good messages, just good questions. And having those talking points allows them to open up and it can lower because that's what kids are doing. They're hiding. Um, 90% of kids do not report any, any type of cyberBullying. 

Hillary Wilkinson (23:00):

Oh yeah. 

Dawn Wible (23:01):

They hide it, you know? Yeah. And so being able to have those moments where they can have an outcry, they can say, something's going on. Um, she sent me this text, it was really mean. It made me feel like this. That's gonna break that cycle. So,

Hillary Wilkinson (23:15):

Right. So I agree with you completely. One thing that I do, uh, I, my daughter is on the cusp of getting her driver's license, but we still have that, that built in car time. And one thing I do is I keep the radio off because I find when the radio is off, the conversation comes, you know, so not, not all the time. I mean, it's, you know, I'm, I, it's, I'm not a black and white person. I, you know, it's not all the time, but anyways. 

Dawn Wible (23:49):

A good one. I like that.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:51):

Yeah. So we met attending the, uh, FairPlay Screen Time Action Network conference this past fall. And the coordinators of the conference did this very cool thing. At the end of the day, they pooled all of the information that came out of the breakout sessions and group discussions and comments during speaker presentations, and delivered kind of a synopsis of the biggest challenges people are facing with technology today. And it was very interesting to note that although we had small group discussions on a variety of topics during the day, from early childhood to mental health, to school messaging, to, you know, just a variety of topics, overwhelmingly the common thread that came together was challenges surrounding deteriorating relational health and communication. And I feel like that's what you and I keep circling back to with like, whether it's the secure attachment with the youngers, whether it's the, you know, the needing just 15 minutes of connection a day, whatever. But I know one of the things that I was very impressed with when, when I first met Dawn, was you are able to rattle off like these numbers and statistics, and I'm just wondering if you can, they're kind, these are kind of sad numbers, but I was wondering if you could share some of those surrounding the relational health part?

Dawn Wible (25:21):

Yep. Yeah. So, um, early on they started noticing a trend on social media with, within marriages, um, divorces happening. And, um, 30% of U.S. divorces are, are direct result of social media. Some studies are up to 50% are due to Facebook. Um, and so, you know, that's just one, that's just one huge one when we're talking about divorce. And there's all kinds of things, uh, that play into the, into these numbers. You know,

Dawn Wible (25:54):

I don’t want at all to minimize, um, the mental health or the relational issues because there's always so many different things that play into those. But these are, some of these are peer reviewed statistics. And so, um, 50% of adults report using phones while out to eat. I mean, you can tell when you're at a restaurant, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're looking around. And, um, I saw one recently. It was really, it was just heartbreaking. It looked like a dad and a son out to eat next to us. And I mean, didn't talk, didn't say a single word to each other. Both of them were just sitting there eating, scrolling on their phone and it was a long meal. Um, and every once in a while, the son would look up at the dad and the dad was just scrolling, and they'd look back down and, and go back to it. Um, and so honestly, it's, you know, it's putting these things right in front of our faces that are entertaining, that are taking our attention away. Um, when we stand in, in lines at, you know, amusement parks or anywhere…

Hillary Wilkinson (26:58):

grocery stores

Dawn Wible (26:59):

Or grocery stores, there's not interaction, social interaction happening between. So having those, having that just socially, you know, handicap us as a culture is really what's happening. So being able to put 'em away to make eye contact when you're with someone to look at, these are some of the skills and the habits that we talk to students about. Um, I have two kids come up during one during some of my trainings. Um, and I'll just use them as an example and I'll have one of them holding a phone, and then the other one is standing there and, and I'll say, “Okay, I want you to tell your friend that your dog died last night.” And then the other kid is holding the phone. And I tell them, “Don't look up. Don't, don't look up. Just stare at your phone and say, “oh, yeah”, okay, answer 'em.”

Dawn Wible (27:49):

So I just have them kind of play this out in front of the rest of the students and they're always excited to do it. You know, they're, you, you get a group of kids and they're like, wanting to be wanting to volunteer for this role here that we're doing. So we have a little role play of them, you know, they're not making the eye contact, the one with the phone. The other one is telling them a very, um, you know, tragic story about their animal dying. And, and then I have 'em at the end, I just have 'em put the phone down, and they go sit back down. And I ask them, do you think that that person cares that their dog died? And all, you know, all the kids are like, “ no, they didn't care!” So it's just a picture of empathy right in front of them for them to recognize and to say, you know, when somebody's showing you a video or saying, “Hey, watch this!”, that's fine to have your phone out and interacting.

Dawn Wible (28:40):

But when you're in a moment where someone is trying to tell you something intimate or tell you something that they're going through, just that mere presence of your phone being there, being in front of you even is really gonna let them know that they, that you don't care about 'em. And that's lowering your empathy levels. And we know that the longer kids are on screens, the lower their empathy is. That's just a clear example of,  just a small thing that they would never think that that was odd to not look up from their game or to not look up from their phone and keep, um, engaging.

Hillary Wilkinson (29:16):

Right. And I feel like what you're talking about is, um, is true digital citizenship. I feel, you know, Richard Culatta spoke on a previous episode about how digital citizenship in schools often kind of gets pigeonholed into, you know, oh, you know, choosing safe passwords don't show, show your location, you know, it's more digital safety, and the safety is certainly important. Absolutely. Like when you're learning to drive, you need to know the rules of the road. But then there's also, there's a difference between driving and courteous driving. I mean, you know, you always use the term defensive driving, which, you know, you want your child to be very alert and aware, but there's also a courteous, you know, component to it as well. So I think that the longer we're entrenched with our tech, the more we need to model that as well. That device technology is a tool, never a replacement for human connection. 

Dawn Wible (30:29):

Right, right. Yeah, it is.

Hillary Wilkinson:

So Dawn, what, with all of your experience, and you've been living this, this role for 10 plus years as a digital wellness educator, um, what do you wish parents knew about technology?

Dawn Wible (31:25):

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, you know, when I do my trainings, a lot of people want me to spend more time on the safety part, tell me what to do to keep my kids safe. Um, and my biggest thing to say is if they're not well, they can't be safe. If they're not, well, they can't be safe. And so we spend a lot of time on what does it look like to be well with our technology? Why do we need digital wellness? Um, these habits, these things, let's plug it in outside of the bedroom at night. Let's do, you know, let's spend this much time on it. Let's follow accounts that make you feel good versus accounts that bring you down. And, um, so really being well on our technology is a big piece of it.

Dawn Wible (32:13):

You know, we ask, um, we ask a lot of kids when we're asking for digital citizenship, we're asking them to, you know, be safe on their phones. We're asking them all these things. And this is why we're involved in screen time action networks so that we can help out in some of the, the building and the legislation and the things that go into, um, how this, this is not built for our wellness. It's not built for our wellbeing as humans. And so if we can teach young kids how to, and we can teach families how to use this well, then that's going to impact their safety that's going to impact, um, their lives I wish that parents knew more about that.

Hillary Wilkinson (32:56):

Okay, we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I will ask Dawn Wible for her healthy screen habit. <laugh>

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Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today is Dawn Wible, a certified digital wellness educator with 10 years of experience in the digital wellness field. I cannot wait to hear your healthy screen habit! Dawn, every episode I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one to share with us today?

Dawn Wible (34:28):

Yes, I do. I have three boys who are not big talkers. When I have girls in the house, they talk up a storm. I have some great friends with daughters and, um, but, but my boys just, they don't talk as much. And so my tip is to have good questions, ready to have good talking points, you know, we're talk more tech less, um, talking more is the key to connection. And um, you know, we were talking earlier about a lot of parents wanna say, what can make my kids safe? Tell me how to keep my kids safe on my phone. But, and you said Hillary on the break, the best filter isn't the best filter. It's your connection with them. And so that is so true. If we can get to that place of being the safe connection for our kids through conversation, through action, um, in our, within our homes and within our relationships, and that is going to be the best, um, habit we can form around our screens, in my opinion.

Hillary Wilkinson (35:31):

Me too, <laugh>. Okay. If you would like more information about Talk More Tech Less and the work they do, please look them up at TalkMoreTechLess.com. As always, I will link this information in the show notes, which you can find by going to healthyscreenhabits.org. Click on the podcast button and scroll down to find this episode where you will also find a complete transcript of our conversation. Dawn, you are doing amazing things out there on behalf of all families sitting in silence, but looking for help. Thank you. And thank you for encouraging me to talk more. Best day ever! <laugh>.

Dawn Wible (36:13):

Thank you so much for having me, Hillary. And same to you, doing amazing things, amazing work in the world.