S3 Episode 8: Help! My Child is Watching Porn! // Marilyn Evans of Parents Aware

No topic is too difficult to tackle.

-Marilyn Evans

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:04):

Today's episode deals with the topic for of pornography. I wanna give you all a, this kind of heads up in case you're either not in a space where you can listen to this topic today, and I respect that, or you may have smaller ears around you. And that being said, it's an incredibly important episode. and I hope you make time in your schedule to listen. When you can, as the founder of Parents Aware an organization committed to helping parents get off the fence and start talking with, with kids about pornography. My guest today is well versed in starting conversations. She uses the skill as the host of the popular parenting podcast, Media Savvy Moms. And while, although I have to confess, I am not always one who loves to lean into a difficult conversation in, I am committed and always looking for the very best ways to protect and empower my kids. So I really feel like we are all going to learn so much today and I can't wait to get started. Welcome to the healthy screen habits podcast, Marilyn Evans.

Marilyn Evans (01:23):

I am so glad to be here and I hope that we can kind of take the difficult out of this conversation. I get that it's a really tricky topic and all of us have, um, some inhibitions about it, but that's what we're here to do today is to take the difficult out of it.

Hillary Wilkinson (01:41):

Exactly. I love it. You're uh, you're our trainer. So <laugh> so Marilyn, I'm interested to hear a little bit about your background. What was your motivation behind founding Parents Aware? How did you get started in this particular? I mean, you have a very specific niche of digital wellness.

Marilyn Evans (02:00):

Yes, yes. And I've particularly stayed, you know, made a conscious to stay in that niche. Um, it goes back to raising my own kids. I have five boys. Uh, the oldest is 27 now, the youngest is 13. And as our older kids, uh, started getting more involved with computer and we're going back a few years, um, I kind of realized, oh my gosh, like they could access anything. And I almost came to that realization on my own while they were, you know, stumbling across pornography really. And I could see the impact that it was having on them. We had, a conversation or two thought that that was done, but I started to hear the conversations of my friends around me. And this was becoming a big concern for everyone. Uh, I'd hear moms, you know, I, I remember distinctly if I can share a quick story.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:07):

Absolutely. Absolutely. No. I find it very relatable to hear other mom's journeys through their process because I, I recognize it <laugh>

Marilyn Evans (03:18):

Yeah. I, I probably tell this story a little different every time, like how I, how I came to create Parents Aware, but today I'm, I'm picturing myself lying on my living room floor. We had had a, a book club. So my best friends were over. I was hosting. It was late into the night. Some of the women had gone home. And one of my closest friends, you know, I guess we're kind of gossiping here, uh, was talking about, you know, gossiping in a healthy way <laugh> but was just sharing her concern. She had a younger friend who was dating and it seemed like every, every young man she dated was into pornography and it just drove her crazy. Now I'm lying on the floor, being a mom of boys who have been exposed to pornography and realizing that, you know, I don't know how to have this conversation with my closest friends.

Marilyn Evans (04:18):

Mm-hmm, <affirmative> let alone, let alone find help. And I don't want my boys to grow up to be those boys. And then I started to realize, well, what if, what if my, my kids make, you know, figure out how to make some good decisions about their screen habits, but they are dating people that, that can't figure it out. And, oh, sure. I just realized that we can't go on not having this conversation. And so that's a little bit of my origin story. I mean, there's so many, so much more to it. I went to find an organization that I could volunteer for. It really wasn't there. What I was looking for. I just wanna get parents talking and, and I was not comfortable having this conversation myself. I was hardly comfortable talking to my kids about sex. In fact, I remember asking one of my older boys to rate me on a scale of one to 10, how comfortable they thought I was in talking to them about sex. And, and I got a three and I honestly thought that that was a fair answer.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:25):

No, and I'm actually impressed that it was a three cuz I'd probably be in the negative.

Marilyn Evans (05:29):

<laugh>So yeah. So it, it was a light bulb moment. Okay. I expect them to change. I expect them to, to have better habits. Well, what am I doing to, to guide them along that, what am I doing to create a better conversation in my community? And that's how Parents Aware was born.

Hillary Wilkinson (05:47):

I love it. And I also, um, I think it's so important to talk about right now, just, you know, even that word pornography, I can remember when I start, when I first started doing, um, parent education, et cetera, et cetera, you would be in a room. And that was the, I mean the surest fire way to bring a room to silence was, I mean, you dropped the porn word and all of a sudden everybody was like, eh, and avoiding eye contact and everything else. Now, I don't know if it's because I have since become so incredibly comfortable with discussing it that I just no longer notice <laugh> and plow through or if, uh, because it is, I mean, it absolutely is within the realm of Healthy Screen Habits. It's one of the big three. The, we talk about, you know, I mean there's porn, there's gaming, there's social media and that's yeah, those are the big three. And you, you cannot discount the porn influence on sexuality of humanity today But, I love what Chris McKenna at protect young eyes, and he says that you, we, um, we need to release the stigma even around the word pornography, and just bring it up, talk about it, talk about it, talk about it. And it, it makes, it makes it a much easier conversation to have.

Marilyn Evans (07:14):

 There's a saying that pornography thrives in the shadows. So that's where it has power. And what we're really about is bringing it into the light of day to, I mean, it's so normalized in our culture, but we need to reveal it for what it truly is. And, and it is exploitation at every level. And to do that, we have to talk openly and honestly about it. So yeah, EV it, people still get squirmish around the word pornography, even though it has been normalized in our culture, but talk about kids in pornography. Ugh. That's that, that does create a bit of silence until we bring it out in the open, right. And then we're like, oh yeah, we can do this. And that's how our kids are gonna feel too. They're kind, they're just waiting for us. They're like holding their breath, waiting for us.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:16):

And I feel like that kind of swoops us around to really the mission of your organization, which is helping parents understand their unique role. I love that phrase, the parents, unique role in preparing children and teens against online harms and exploitation. And I love how you point that out. It is a unique role. I mean, it's a unique relationship throughout life. We have thousands and thousands of friends, you get one mom, you get one dad. Now that being said, I recognize that we have many different family styles. We get have many different whoever those parenting figures are in your life. I should say. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, um, can you talk a little bit about this unique role in this preparation?

Marilyn Evans (09:05):

There's a lot of things that we do to try to protect our kids from harmful content. You know and these are all good things like we might, um, monitor screen time, especially as kids are younger, we might install filters and controls. However, there is nothing that will be 100%, um, able to block pornography from targeting your kids. And that's why we have such a unique role. And it goes beyond just pornography. It's about building your healthy screen habits. So we're, we're building a healthy kids. We're, we're talking to them about their ongoing sexual development. Now, when we don't talk, that's when our kids get really hurt because pornography is there and every child is curious. They're just, they're curious by nature. That's how children learn and grow cognitively. Their brain is actually wired way better than the adult brain is to take in information.

Marilyn Evans (10:21):

Like just bring it in, bring it in. They're curious about their own bodies. They're curious about how things work in general. And of course they're curious about sex. I mean, you and I were curious about all those things too. When we were young, we just, weren't surrounded by this ease of access to hypersexualized information. And so we have to recognize the world that our kids are growing up in. And so when I say that you have this unique role in preparing them, it's it's, you, you are the best person on this planet to have these conversations with your children. We want our children to come to us when they have questions about sex. And yeah, your kid's not gonna ask you everything. But when you talk to them about the harms of pornography, you're preparing them to stay away from pornography mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson (11:22):

<affirmative> right. So when you're doing, talking about the preparation, how, like when do you recommend parents start these conversations do you have an, an age range that you recommend?

Marilyn Evans (11:45):

I say start right now, start whatever age your child is at. Now, if you have a 12 year old, that conversation is gonna look a lot different than if you have a six year old. So, uh, but the importance is to put the conversation on the table. And so at every age and stage of development. So if you let's say you do have a 12 year old, they may or may not have been exposed to pornography at that age, but they need to know what pornography is. So you could talk about how to define pornography. And I usually would recommend asking your child because then you're not overloading them with information. You're finding out what they already know. And if you have a younger child and you're not quite ready to use the word pornography, well, you can still talk about, um, what, uh, private pictures or private information and, or you could even say naked pictures. You know, we get really caught up in saying, okay, what's pornography, what's not porn. As your kids grow and mature, they're gonna learn a little more about what it is. What we wanna do is create healthy concept of the body. You know, you can talk about body parts with your kids at any age and why their body is special. Why, why it's worth protecting.

Hillary Wilkinson (13:20):

A resource that I used with my own kids when they were young. And that I, um, I always like to give people a tool if they mm-hmm <affirmative>, if, you know, if they're looking other outside of, you know, our website, your website, everything else, but a, a physical concrete tool would be, uh, Kristen Jensen is the author and she wrote Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. And then she also wrote a book called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Jr. And that is, yeah, that is a, uh, a, a good way to kind of just keep this conversation open and going. And the thing that's great about a book is there's a beginning, a middle and end. And mm-hmm, <affirmative> when you, uh, maybe if you wanna stop, if the conversation is kind of taking a different turn, you can close it. You know, it's a, it's, it's a, it's very accessible to, to use those, those types of books.

Marilyn Evans (14:14):

I, I have used those. In fact, that's her, her original book was my, was how I started the conversation. And I started it with my youngest child. And I will say that I was probably kind of nervous to talk, you know, here's this book I'm sharing with my six, seven year old about pornography. Well, it didn't take more than the first chapter, which is like a page and a half for us to both know that we were completely comfortable with this book. Right? So that is a fantastic resource. And then, uh, we wanna build those conversations. We wanna keep coming back to those conversations. And so that's what, that's what the media savvy mom's podcast is all about. It's having these reminders, how to approach the topic week by week, or, you know, bring it up. And when I say bring it up, it's not always using the word pornography. It's again, coming back to those healthy screen habits, it's about what are, what is what's going on in the news? Can we bring up, um, anything that would be relevant to their day to day experience like, and they're developing bodies, like making sure that we are comfortable talking to each other.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:28):

Very good. So we have to take a little break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Marilyn what she recommends we do. If we find out our child has already been exposed to and is viewing porn.

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Hillary Wilkinson (15:48):

My guest is Marilyn Evans, founder of Parents Aware and mom to five sons. So Marilyn, I have to tell you anytime the topic of pornography comes up, at least in Healthy Screen Habits land. It seems as though there are many folks that just wanna laugh it off. There's all kinds of noise that pornography is just like, sort of like sexual right of passage. And it's harmless. I'm using air quotes. I know my, our listeners can't see it, but I'm using air quotes all over the place. <laugh> in short, it's not taken as seriously as those of us who have studied online behavior <laugh> recognize it as the public health threat that it is. And I'm just wondering if you have any compelling messages that you'd like to share about the differences between healthy sexual development versus kind of this pornified introduction to sexuality.

Marilyn Evans (16:51):

Wow. Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:51):

That's a big one. I know. No, I'm sorry.

Marilyn Evans (16:54):

Thank you for talking about it as a health threat, cuz that's really what it is. And I too get really frustrated when oh, kids will be kids. Boys will be boys. This is just a phase they're gonna get through it. No, no, no, no pornography. Is so detrimental to healthy sexual development. And our kids at this age are much more vulnerable than an adult. And yes, you may be listening and say, well, I stumbled across, you know, a magazine when I was 12 years old, 14 years old, whatever I looked at porn. It's not the same thing for, and, and I still that that's not necessarily healthy anyway, but it's not the same thing. We are talking about. High speed internet access. We're talking about, uh, violent, degrading, sexual content. That's teaching our kids that violence and sex belong together just in the news.

Marilyn Evans (18:01):

Billy Eilish, um, Grammy award winning, singer songwriter. She's 20 years old. She's, she's one, an astounding amount of Grammy's already. And she just came out, uh, on the Howard Stern show and said, "Look, I've had nightmares for the pornography that I've been exposed to since I was 11 years old. And I used to think that this was, I used to defend this, but as a woman, I can no longer defend it. And, and it led me to do things in my first sexual experiences that I should have said no to." Mm. And, and that's what we're, we're trying to build. We're trying, you know, having an interest in sex is very normal. Having your sexual development hijacked by an industry who is, that is only concerned about their bottom line and is fueled by exploitation is, is not. That is not fair to our kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (19:07):

So what do you recommend parents? Do? We all know, I mean, if you're online at all, we all know, despite the filters, despite everything we have in place, it is not an, if it is a, when your child gets a exposed to pornographic images online and it's, it's never, when you're, it's never, when you're ready, it's always like Tuesday at 4:30 <laugh>. And so, so, uh, when you find it out, this, you know, the exposure may have happened long ago, but what if despite all of our care and our attempts at education surrounding this topic, we find that they're continuing to seek out videos and seek out the images online. What do you have a recommendation on - How do we, how do we deal with ongoing porn use that is non-sanctified, but is, you know, being accessed via sneaky measures, et cetera, et cetera.

Marilyn Evans (20:13):

Yes. Okay. So the short is, uh, love your kid, hate the porn. Um, so you want your child to know that you are on their side, you're walking beside them, everything we do, we wanna do in a, a, a loving understanding arms, open wide kind of way. That said, when you discover this, you are going to feel all the feels as a parent, you're going to feel anger, betrayal, shock, horror. And the reason I say that is because I know I've been there myself. I, I felt like I was, was punched in the gut, you know, and, and I didn't know what to do. So all of those feelings you get to share with your partner, your best friend, your therapist, whomever, you like <laugh>, you're gonna try not to share those with your kids. We wanna come at this in a non-shaming way.

Marilyn Evans (21:11):

I reinforce with your kids, that interest in sex is normal. You know, they're probably feeling like, "oh my gosh, why can't I stop looking at this?" If you've already had a conversation with them, mom or dad has said, you know, this isn't good for me. And yet I keep going back to it. I keep going back to it. And that is what pornography is designed to do is designed to entice, allure, arouse and the brain lights up. It's just, it's excited. So you have this, this teen, this young teen, who's got all these confusing thoughts and feelings about their development. They're going through one of the most stressful periods of their life. Their brain is like, oh, I feel really good when I look at porn and they just, they're going to it almost automatically. And so just keep reinforcing that interest in sex is normal. Um, and, but check in with their feelings, like if this is the first time you've had this conversation, you, you probably wanna find out how long it's been going on. Is it, you know, if the first couple times will,

Hillary Wilkinson (22:21):

Right. So I think it's important. Like, don't, don't assume that the first time that you're aware of it necessarily is their first exposure.

Marilyn Evans (22:32):

Yeah. This could be a, a habit that's really ingrained in your child, or it could be, uh, an experience that they've had casually. And so you wanna know where you're coming at, no matter where your, what, whether your child's been exposed or not these conversations you have with them. Well, keep 'em brief, especially to start with, until your child is comfortable having this conversation.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:56):

Yeah. Which I think that is tricky in its own. Right. Because we tend to, we tend to like wanna do this massive brain dump on things. Exactly. I come from background in education and I can always remember the, uh, the golden rule in education is you take the age of the child, divide it by two. And that is the amount of time that you have for appropriate instruction level. I love that. So the average age of exposure to porn at this point, and last checked, you know, it's like creeping down every day, but the average age of exposure is between eight and 11 years old. Yeah. So you're talking, you've maybe got a four to six minute window at the outside of talking and then move on to something different. And it's not to say that it's a one and done, it's a multiple conversations, but don't sit and hold a 25 minute dissertation. So I, yeah, I think, I think that if I'm correct in understanding, that's what you're saying.

Marilyn Evans (24:02):

I, I really love that formula. So you wanna check in with your feelings, um, you, you can, you can, of course share that porn is harmful, but you can tell them that you can talk a bit more, more about why that is when you've both had a chance to realize and come to terms with the fact that, you know, what's going on. And, and then you're leading up to having multiple conversations. Like you said, like you, we always wanna try to, to end with, “and we'll come back to this”.  Hug and love and reinforce that they're not, they're not abnormal, but we need to stay away from pornography.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:41):

Right. Um, that kind of leads me to the area on your website that I thought it was particularly touching. Uh, I know as a new mom, it probably would have helped me a lot to have stumbled across something like this that I saw on your website, that you titled "Things I've Learned and Want To Share", because when you're these babies home from the hospitals, the thing you hear again, and again, is there are no instruction manuals and you know, it's so overwhelming, you think, oh my gosh. But I think this "lessons learned" type approach would've been extremely valuable. So are you up for sharing some of those points of what you have learned along you you've got a lot of experience with five sons.

Marilyn Evans (25:27):

Yep. Yep, absolutely. So, you know, the first is that no topic is too difficult to tackle. This was a big obstacle for me to get over. I did get nervous, um, talking to my kids about sex, about pornography, but I have learned that when you, put these important conversations on the table, and when you admit some of your, your nervousness, it really is showing your kids that you are willing to get outside your comfort zone, that you're willing to be brave and honest, and show that you're vulnerable and they can relate to that kind of humanity.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:06):

Yeah. So I love that no topic is too difficult to tackle your next one is just, um, it's very humane that all children are inherently good. Can you speak more?

Marilyn Evans (26:19):

They are good! And, you know, I get frustrated with my kids, just like anyone else listening might get frustrated with their kids. But this, the pornography is what is, is, is bad. The pornography is what is, is targeting our kids. It's exploiting our kids. Children are good. And I, I said, I think I said this because there's this misconception that we can somehow ruin a child's innocence. Well, children can have harmful things happen to them, but is my belief that children are just innocent by nature and that we can't ruin their innocence. So we wanna prepare them, um, so that we can minimize harmful experiences that they could have. Right. If they're good kids, they're all good kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:09):

Right. You wanna empower them with knowledge, not mm-hmm, <affirmative> just bank on naivete and yeah. Yeah. I agree. You, you need to give them tools through which we walk through life. Yeah. And one of those tools is your third point, which is LOVE you wanna go into that?

Marilyn Evans (27:29):

Yeah. Well, love is the answer. It's always the answer. So when you're, you're upset and you're feeling betrayed and you're feeling angry, try to take a step back and, and start from a point of love. Start from a point of understanding, where is your child coming from? What has brought them to this point, if you come, keep coming back to that, uh, you're going to move forward. There's a, there's a proverb that I keep coming back to. Um, it says, "if you want to go fast, go alone. And if you want to go far go together." And I think that applies so well to, to this.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:12):

Your last point that I really appreciate, speaks to the concept of scaffolding and what, what, in your words, what does that mean? Yeah.

Marilyn Evans (28:48):

Okay. So I, I say that learning is a layered process, and I think that that's for you as the parent or the carer and it's for your child. And especially if you've had a child that is, um, immersed in pornography, this, this is a journey that you're going on with your child, and you're going to learn how to talk to them. Your first conversation is not going to go great. You're going to say and do all sorts of things that, um, don't make for the model conversation. I, that does not matter. You're going to come back to it. It's kind of how you end the conversation more than how you start the conversation or how you continue it, that matters. And your child is gonna learn as well. They're they may not be able to let go of pornography right away, but they're going to learn how to appreciate who they are as an individual and what their strengths are. And as they just grow and develop, uh, into an adult, if you're having these conversations along the way and supporting them, and they're, they're trying, and you're, you're not shaming them. Then I, I truly believe that you can have success and there can be freedom from pornography.

Hillary Wilkinson (30:08):

Excellent. And another tool that just while you were talking, kind of popped into my head when we were talking about this learning as a layered process, and maybe you'll have kids that are really beyond the ages of reading together and picture book type stuff is the resource that's put out by Fight The New Drug mm-hmm <affirmative>, which is a three part docu-series called Brain Heart World. And it's, it's in three parts. You can watch it together. You can have discussions I would recommend watching it before your children do, to make sure that you're comfortable with the content that's in there. But, uh, I'll link all of these resources that we we're talking about.

Marilyn Evans (30:53):

Yeah. That's a fantastic resource. I love it for kids, uh, age 11 and older. Again, you watch it first. Know what you're getting into, but the first, um, first part I watched it not too long ago with my boys and I always ask them, you know, what age do you think that that kids could handle this? And, uh, they definitely said middle school, it's very well done. And it isn't graphic and right. They love the sense of there's kind of this quirky narrator that, uh, appeals to kids.

Hillary Wilkinson (31:28):

It's very hip it's very, yeah. Fight the New Drug is edgy and their graphics. And I mean, they know their audience. So it's, it's very well done.

Marilyn Evans (31:42):

 So I will put in a little plug for, I have a much less cool, but very appropriate for parents <laugh> course. It's called Get Off the Fence. I think you referred to it at the beginning. Yes. Confidently talk to your child or teen about pornography. And it's a very short, uh, course and walks you through how to have that conversation, whether it's the first time or these layered conversations.

Hillary Wilkinson (32:07):

Very good. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Marilyn Evans for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today is Marilyn Evans, a mom with a passion to Get Parents Off The Fence and helps them get through the process of having porn talks. Now Marilyn, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one that you can share with us today?

Marilyn Evans (33:17):

I do. So I've met mentioned a couple times that talking about pornography, isn't just talking about pornography. And one of the things that's really helpful for developing these healthy screen habits is to know who you are as an individual and as a family, and to be able to identify and articulate your core values. You know, we all think our kids know what their values are, but it actually really helps to, to talk about them. And this can help our kids reject pornography and guard against other forms of exploitation that they'll come across online. So really quickly answer the following three questions as a family. What do we want to be? Or what do I want to be as an individual? What do we want to do? So what do we want to be as future? Think about future goals. What do we want to do? How do we want to act presently and what am I passionate about? And don't overthink it. Just make it super fun, make it quick, post the answers where you can see them and consider how your current screen habits support these values.

Hillary Wilkinson (34:26):

I like that. I like the bridging of real world and online world, you know, I always hesitate to use that phrase “real world” anymore because honestly the screen world is our real world. I mean, nothing illustrates that more than the past two years that we've been all living online but, um, but between our physical world and our online world, I like that bridging of kind of who we are, where we wanna be headed and kind of, what's driving that with the, what are, what do we stand for? Yeah. So it's, um, it, I like it also because it's a conversation that sounds like it can be had again and again, I mean it would change year to year. It might even be a New Year's conversation.

Marilyn Evans (35:11):

You could go really in depth on this. I've given you like the super Uber condensed version, but you can have a family mission statement and spend a week putting it together. I just want you to start and get thinking about it.

Hillary Wilkinson (35:24):

Yes. So if our listeners would like to listen to more of Marilyn Evan's wisdom, they can find it at the Media Savvy Mom's Podcast, or have a look at the website, ParentsAware.info. I will link all of these resources to in our show notes and as always, I can't really thank you enough, Marilyn, for the time that you took to chat with me today and share with our listeners and our, uh, Healthy Screen Habits crew, all of your knowledge.

Marilyn Evans:

Oh, thanks Hilary. It's a pleasure to be here and I love connecting with other parents who, who just inspire me the way you do. Thank you.