S3 Episode 9: Slaying Digital Dragons // Alex J. Packer Ph.D.

"[For young people] phones are like a significant other…And you don't want to make them feel defensive that you're coming down on them. If they're going to hear what you're saying…they need to feel that you're willing to listen and that you understand their perspective on all these things."

- Alex J. Packer

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Slaying Digital Dragons Tips and tools for protecting your body, brain, psyche, and thumbs from the digital dark side by Alex J. Packer Ph.D

How Rude!: The Teen Guide to Good Manners, Proper Behavior, and Not Grossing People Out by Alex J. Packer Ph.D

Tiny Habits : The Small Changes That Change Everything by BJ Fogg PhD

Show Transcript

 Hillary Wilkinson (00:03):

Today we have an amazing opportunity to talk to an expert of teenagers. He's an educator, psychologist, and an award-winning author of numerous books for parents and teenagers, including the book that first introduced him to me titled: How Rude! The Teen Guide to Good Manners, Proper Behavior, and Not Grossing People Out. He has a super great humorous approach to really big deal issues that I find to be a really good blend that translates well to teens, which is why when his latest book Slaying Digital Dragons came out, I knew we needed to chat. I really feel like we're going to learn so much today and I cannot wait to get started. Welcome to the Healthy Screen Habits Podcast; Dr. Alex Packer.

Dr. Alex Packer (01:03):

Thank you so much for inviting me. I've been looking forward to this. 

Hillary Wilkinson (01:08):

So Dr. Packer at Healthy Screen Habits, we pride ourselves in being sort of cheerleaders of tech, but that is cheerleaders of intentional use of technology. And after reading Slaying Digital Dragons, I kind of got that vibe from you as well as not being an anti-tech guy. You speak directly to teens in the book, and there's like, there's just so our listeners know there's some funny ways which you even provide pushback to the more serious content. And why, why do you take that approach? Why do you feel that's important?

Dr. Alex Packer (01:48):

It's important because for, for young people, their phones are like significant other. Mm. And you don't want to make them feel defensive that you're coming down on them. And if they're going to hear what you're saying, if they're gonna feel comfortable engaging in a dialogue with you about all these issues, they need to feel that you're willing to listen and that you understand their perspective on all these things.

Hillary Wilkinson (02:22):

And so you use humor as kind of the tool to do that.

Dr. Alex Packer (02:26):

I use humor and respect and validation, and even a self deprecating tone at times. I always tend to go towards teens for these issues. You know, I've written some books for parents, but you mentioned how rude. And, you know, I realized the world was becoming a, you know, a manners se pool. And we were losing civility and decency. And this was, you know, 20 years ago. And I felt I wanna go to the teens directly and talk to them about this and make them realize that, yeah, you should have good manners because it's a kind, responsible, considerate way to be. But also it's in your best interest. And recently, when I began to have similar feelings of, oh my goodness, where are we with big tech? And what's going on in, uh, young people and our culture and our politics and our democracy and our world. I felt I wanna go straight to teens and engage them, uh, on these issues. Mm.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:46):

Wise words. So, um, in slang, digital dragons, you kind of divide it into these three RS of reflect, resist and reset. Can you, this is like a real, I mean, obviously there's a whole book around these three R and I'm asking you, you do this in a few minutes ago. Could you briefly give us a little summary on each of the RS?

Dr. Alex Packer (04:12):

I can <laugh>

Hillary Wilkinson (04:14):

You're yeah.

Dr. Alex Packer (04:16):

I had a little to do with that. Um, Reflect is where I ask kids to examine their own screen scene. And this has to do with the word you used earlier, intentional, because I feel it's so important for kids to be mindful about their relationship to the digital world. I want them to take charge of it, you know, for most of us, we just slid into it. We didn't make conscious decisions. I never agreed that I was willing to talk to machines. And with teens, I think it's a similar thing. They just slide into it. So in Reflect, I present them with nine wacky, but science based challenges that ask them to examine how they use their devices. I present them with a lot of warning signs that they might recognize as having something to do with, uh, what they're experiencing. I ask them to think about the apps they use, how much time they spend, how they feel when they're online, do they feel productive and connected and happy and creative, or do they feel lonely or depressed or excluded?

Dr. Alex Packer (05:42):

So that's the essence of Reflect. And by the end of those nine challenges, they really have a much better understanding of their screen scene. Then in Resist, I focus on how the digital world can affect their body, their brain, their psyche, their relationships, their safety, their reputation. And I go deep into the darkness. You know, I don't skim the surface with the things they’re already familiar with, you know, cyber bullying and sexual predators. Uh, of course that's important and they need to be aware of that. But I go deep into the malevolent side of big tech and the extent to which kids are being tracked and surveilled and manipulated, and big tech is using the most sophisticated knowledge of human psychology and human nature to manipulate them and keep them on the site and even addicted to that platform. And then the final part of the book called Reset is where if they've identified aspects of their screen scene that they wanna change, I present what's called giving yourself an app-endectomy. And an appendectomy is a self-guided intervention where you cut out any unhealthy aspects of your screen scene, and you forge a much healthier relationship to your devices in the digital world.

Hillary Wilkinson (07:33):

I love this because it does a couple of things. It, um, it puts the teen in the role of the hero, right? Of slaying that digital dragon and who doesn't love to be a hero in their own story. <laugh> but also, I really like how you have, um, you take each individual it's, it's almost like you create a dialogue with the individual who's reading the book. You really allow for the team to tailor their relationship with tech. And I, I find that a very wise approach because as we know, kids in this stage of their life are all about individualism. So I think it's super, super wise.

Dr. Alex Packer (08:31):

Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was really important to make each reader know, I have felt all the addictive pull of these devices, but to the extent that this is all a miracle, it's also a monster. And a lot of this has to do with the nature of the research. You know, there's great research out there and we have a pretty good idea. There's so much smoke that I believe there's fire, you know, and we have a pretty good idea that for many kids, um, time they're spending online is having a negative impact.

Dr. Alex Packer (09:40):

And this could be in many different areas. But at the end of the day, the research doesn't really matter for that one individual to child, right? Because some kids will go to social media, they'll take it or leave it. They use it in a very limited, uh, useful way. Whereas other kids will just get sucked in and, you know, instead of posting to share their life, posting becomes their life and their self-esteem, their confidence gets affected

Hillary Wilkinson (10:29):

When we have to take a break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Alex packer, what effects digital overuse are having on our teen's brain development. 

—-----------Ad Break - HSH Website—-----------------------

My guest is Alex J Packer PhD. He received his PhD in educational and developmental psychology from Boston college and his Master's degree in Education from Harvard. In short, he is a voice you can trust, which is always important when we seek expert advice. And Dr. - I have to tell you, most of my listeners are moms, which is great news because I truly believe moms rule the world. <laugh>. And I also know that no one is going to care more about their child's health than a mom. So knowing this, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the biology of what happens to an adolescent brain when they spend too much time on screens and particularly on social media, which is what we were getting into prior to the break?

Dr. Alex Packer (12:12):

Right. Adolescence is one of those periods where the brain goes through another hyper growth. Uh, and during that time, it's the prefrontal cortex that you really wanna be bulking up because that's where the higher brain function takes place, you know, problem solving and focus and decision making and good judgment. And, you know, being able to remember things, uh, and what happens if you're spending a lot of time on a screen is your brain is being assaulted, at least the way most teens use their devices. It's this constant barrage of flashes and changing screens, and one task here and another task there and notifications  and strobes, and those blinking ads, you know, everything's happening every few seconds. And this stimulates the more primitive area, the flight or fight, uh, area of the brain, because your brain doesn't know in that instance, whether that flash of sound and movement is a charging elephant coming for you or a TikTok video. So given how assaultive so much of our time on screens is,  this is serving to bulk up the wrong areas of the brain. And this is why we see in many, many teens, uh, that it's difficult to concentrate. They may have academic problems, trouble remembering things. They may not be, uh, that responsible and all of these, you know, their judgment, uh, all of these have to do with the prefrontal cortex, so that the main gestalt of how these devices, uh, could be affecting a child's brain.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:23):

So let me, uh, let me kind of go back to you talking about how the wrong area of the brain is being bulked up. And I've never, I've never thought of it that way. As far as like muscle, I, I do compare the brain to a muscle that, you know, you feed and, and exercise, but, um, would it be correct to potentially assume that if someone is barraging their brain, as you said with those, those, uh, hyper-intense experiences, the area that we're bulking up could actually feed anxiety?

Dr. Alex Packer (15:01):

Absolutely. Because it's putting you in a state of chronic stress. Oh, you know, it, I, I, I use, I think of you go to a movie and you, you see a 15 minute car chase and it's the most exciting, violent, chaotic thing and crash and bang, and your body is physically reacting to that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> even though in the recesses of your head, you kind of know it's just a movie and it's a similar thing with the, uh, stimuli that are attacking the, uh, the brain. Wow. So that's why I always say, it's not just how much time you're spending online on a screen. It's how it's affecting you, because you could be doing something very meditative or something that's, uh, requiring great concentration. So it's, but you know, the, the research shows that kids and college students are changing tasks, uh, just every 19 seconds. And, uh, that's one of the big myths by the way about that. I think teens have about their use. They think that they're becoming experts at multitasking, but there's really no such thing. You know, you can, uh, eat popcorn while watching a movie. You can sing in the shower, but you can't text a friend while you're studying for an exam. Um, and actually what all this task switching is doing is it's training kids not to be able to focus and solve creative problems.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:58):

Right. So it's kind of, if we go back to that, that, uh, like heavy lifting or muscle building, it's, it's training the wrong muscles.

Dr. Alex Packer (17:08):

Exactly. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson (17:10):

Hmm. Okay. So let's move into what we can do to kind of make some changes that can realistically be made to make our digital space, a healthier place for young people kind of beyond parent controls. So we know that oftentimes our very creative digital natives find workarounds faster than we can install parental controls. So knowing that the internet was designed by adults for adults, but kids and teens are on it, what can we do to help create good space for them?

Dr. Alex Packer (17:59):

Well, I'm gonna focus my answer on teens,  for teens, everything has to be focused on establishing a partnership, a dialogue. And I often think of it in similar terms for parents as helping kids develop healthy sexuality. And I don't wanna go off, that's a whole nother, complicated, difficult issue.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:47):

In, but that shows you how difficult  that tech use and you know, training is, is that we're comparing it with. So I agree. <laugh>

Dr. Alex Packer (18:57):

It's very tricky. There are pitfalls and risks. Kids may not wanna share much about it. You, as a parent, you can't keep an eye on your child all the time. Your teen's gonna be off on their own, and you ultimately have to trust in your teen's good judgment and responsibility, and that's something you need to cultivate over the years. It doesn't just come one day. You can, uh, click it into place. So in that sense, you need to create, as a parent, an environment in which your children will feel comfortable, discussing things with you. And the place to start is by doing an inventory on yourself, the, the most powerful teacher, any parent has is example.

Dr. Alex Packer (20:05):

So start there, you know, what are you modeling to your child, especially with your own use of devices? Because if you check your phone 20 times at the dinner table, uh <laugh> you know, you're not gonna be very effective in trying to limit your child's screen time, uh, or get a receptive audience when talking about it. So I would say, you know, that's an important place to start, and then you just want to cultivate this dialogue. And kids are experts at their phones. Now there's a lot, they don't think through in terms of consequences. Make it a part of your family life that you talk about what they're doing, what they saw, how they feel about it.

Dr. Alex Packer (21:11):

Um, there's so many issues that come up every day in the news, whether it's  Instagram, the Facebook scandals, or the role of social media in elections, or just recently this Spotify Joe Rogan thing. Um, and, uh, you know, things like cyber bullying and cancel culture, uh, kids think about that. So ask them for their opinions on all of these things and get them mindful and intentional about their own youth. It always comes back to that because ultimately that's where the health is going to occur or not occur in the decisions they make and the relationship they forge to their devices.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:03):

I appreciate your attention to the word relationship because I do think, I mean, that's all we've got, right? I mean, the relationship within the family, our relationship within tech, when you boil it all down, that's, that's where, where the connection occurs is within that relationship. So fostering and nurturing that relationship is going to help, you know, guide your, your child through the dragons and the wilderness. 

Dr. Alex Packer (22:36):

Right. And we have to always remember that these kids are adolescents. So they're going to have passions and compulsions and, you know, do things that make their parents tear their hair out, just like in earlier generations, you know, they might stay in their room, reading comic books or carrying their boombox everywhere. But the big difference now is that those obsessions or passions were choices the kids were making.  Your boombox wasn't manipulating you, it wasn't tracking you, it wasn't learning about what you're listening to and then making a hundred recommendations to try and entrap you, uh, into more listening. And I think that is a key distinction, and one, we need to just be aware of when thinking about how these devices may interact with teen healthy passions and obsessions and phases, if you will. Uh, but there's a power, a brainwashing going on underneath the surface that we've got to, you know, keep in mind.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:53):

I think it's important that we have learned about the persuasive algorithms and thanks to the work of people like Tristan Harris at the Center for Humane Tech, who has brought these things to light. It allows us to make that just hopefully better informed choices. Do you think it's realistic to ask big tech to become part of the solution for the problems of digital overuse that we see, or do you think that's unrealistic?

Dr. Alex Packer (24:42):

It's unrealistic. <laugh> I, I would wish I could be more positive and optimistic. I really do, but I often think of similarities between big tech and the alcohol industry. You know, both of their profits are it's based in consumption and big tech needs are to, to be consuming. And the more we consume, the more we stay on their particular platforms, the more money they make. And, uh, I, I don't see solutions coming from big tech until they realize it's affecting their bottom line. And it's a bit, again, like the alcohol industry, you know, you see the, uh, public service announcements of please drink responsibly, but those aren't gonna do anything. And same thing with big tech.So again, it all comes back around to the family and to the modeling parents can do and to empower each team to take charge of their phone, you know, to make technology their tool and not become its tool.

Hillary Wilkinson (26:19):

We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Packer for his healthy screen habit.

—--------Ad Break —------- 

My guest today is Dr. Alex J Packer whose book Slaying Digital Dragons gives tips, tools, and just the right amount of research for protecting our body's brains, psyche and thumbs from the dark, from the digital dark side. Now, Alex, on every episode of the healthy screen habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit, which is a tip or takeaway that our listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one you can share with us today?

Dr. Alex Packer (27:38):

I do. And it starts with my belief that parents tend to focus too much on how much time their teens spend on their phone. You know, some parents think it's too much, other parents think it's way too much. And, uh, instead of focusing on the amount of time, I think they should also be thinking really clearly about what are their teens doing with that time? In other words, are you creating or are you vegetating? Are you connecting or isolating? Are you focusing or are you being assaulted by different screens every few seconds? All those things come together to help parents and teens assess the quality of their screen time.

Dr. Alex Packer (28:52):

But it's important to point out, even if kids are spending all those hours doing the most noble, creative, wonderful, generous, giving, caring things online, they're still experiencing a huge portion of their life through a tiny screen. And I compare that to say a child who's spending eight hours a day, practicing a musical instrument or playing tennis, uh, or snowboarding, cuz they have some great goal they wanna reach. Those as well, can be imbalancing forces in a teen's life. But in those cases, the teen has made that decision. They're in control of it and they've weighed the pros and cons. My fear with spending so much time online is that many teens have not made that conscious decision. They've simply been sucked into the vortex of online life.

Hillary Wilkinson (30:01):

I like how this habit kind of focuses creativity over consumption. And also I think for parents coming from a place of curiosity, it kind of, it gives room for an assumption of positive intent, which is something that I think is very beneficial to kind of come, come to your teen with an assumption of positive intent just to, to lower defenses. It's a great place to open that communication.

Dr. Alex Packer (32:03):

Yeah. Cuz  parents are struggling with these issues themselves. Uh, many parents may be in far greater trouble with their devices, so parents can share their own concerns and efforts. And I suggest in the book that maybe several members of the family want to give themselves an app- endectomy or do a family app-endectomy and bring everyone together to identify the one goal you're going to work on. That's key to the app-endectomy. You just start with one goal.

Hillary Wilkinson (32:40):

Oh, very nice. A tiny habit. BJ Fogg, who was the, uh, godfather of the persuasion labs at Stanford, would applaud you on that. <laugh> okay. Well, if our listeners would like to access more of your wisdom, they can find it on website@alexjpacker.com or they can get their own copy of Slaying Digital Dragons and use it as a connector to understanding their teen’s perspective on digital health, working on that relationship. And um, perhaps do my sneaky trick of just leaving it around enough that someone might pick it up and read it on their own. <laugh> leave it. I I'm sorry to say that, like books like that kind of like, I I'll just like set in the bathroom or you

Dr. Alex Packer (33:28):

Know, <laugh> Well, that's another similarity with sexuality. You just leave the book on sex around <laugh> you don't hand it to your teen. <laugh> Right.

Hillary Wilkinson (33:40):

Okay. I will link all of that information plus a link to the book in the show notes of this episode, which can be found on our website@healthyscreenhabits.org, click on podcast. And then look for Season 3, Episode 9. I have truly enjoyed speaking with you today, Dr. Packer and thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Alex Packer (34:03):

This has been great fun. Thanks so much for inviting me.