S5 Episode 8: It’s Time To Make A Change! // David Monahan, J.D. & Haley Hinkle, J.D. of Fairplay

“We are farther than we've really ever been in passing updated legislation for kids online and we think that there's so much bipartisan energy around this, we really need to use the momentum.”

- Haley Hinkle, J.D.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaways

Resources

For More Info:

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson (00:02):

I'm not proud, but I have to admit much of what I know about legislation and the bill-making process I learned from Schoolhouse Rock. I mean, I was a pretty good student and I did clearly alright in US History and government classes. But when it comes down to actually how it all goes down, I often find myself singing, "I'm just a bill, sitting on top..." So the problem is I don't really remember the whole song. So when two pieces of legislation, the Kids Online Safety Act, or KOSA, and a reworking of the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act, or COPPA, made the news, I seriously knew I needed backup. So that's where my guests today come in. They are more than backup. They are well-informed on all things governmental and are going to explain why these two bills are so important. David Monahan and Haley Hinkle are here representing the nonprofit organization. Fair Play. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. 

David/Haley:

Thanks so much for having us. 

Hillary Wilkinson:

Excellent. I am so glad you could both be here. So let's spend kind of a minute or two giving some background and explaining what Fairplay is and the roles that you guys have in the organization.

David Monahan (01:34):

Um, sure. And I'll take that if, if that's okay, Hillary, and, um, really glad to be here. So, um, we work, um, throughout the US to help children thrive and have healthy development in what is an increasingly commercialized, um, screen-obsessed culture. We educate families about how marketing is targeted, uh, to children, what those, the impacts of that are and how we can all work together to push back against marketing that targets children. We're an independent voice, unlike some others in this sphere. Uh, we don't take any funding from big tech or from other corporations. Um, and basically it's all about the fact that when kids are young and impressionable, uh, and desperately in need of healthy activities that are important to their development, we want the most important influences in their lives to be their parents, their educators, if they're a family of faith, um, a clergy person, the people who care about their development, not people who see them as a means to increasing profit

David Monahan (02:39):

and a target for marketing. We were founded back in 2000, by Dr. Susan Lynn, who's a psychologist. We were called Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood at the time, and Dr. Lynn was at Children's Hospital and, um, she saw the way media companies were just increasingly targeting kids, how Nickelodeon and Disney and other channels and movies, were all these sophisticated devices for selling kids junk food and other movies and other television shows. And, um, Dr. Lynn was actually disturbed. There was something in New York called the Golden Marble Awards, where people on Madison Avenue got together basically slapping themselves on the back about how terrific they were about marketing to kids and, um, not caring about the, the impacts upon kids wellbeing. Dr. Lynn was just so incensed by it that she created, um, kind of counter-message called the Have You Lost Your Marbles Award? <laugh>, um, to raise awareness about the harms of, of child-targeted marketing. And, things really, kind of took off from there.

Hillary Wilkinson (03:51):

Well, I'm so glad that someone had the foresight to do all of those things cause we're talking way before the age of personal devices and, you know, handheld technologies we're talking like you said, Nickelodeon and Cable TV at that point.

David Monahan (04:10):

Yeah, and, and you know, there was a lot about what was going on, um, in schools like junk food, fundraisers trying to take advantage of, um, you know, short supplies in schools and that kind of thing. But gradually over the years, increasingly, um, this organization had to start addressing the ways that kids were being targeted with technology. Things like the Hello Barbie doll, which was going to collect information from kids supposed supposedly be a friend to your child, but was really an eavesdropping device that would start marketing, um, to kids based upon, um, the information that was collected. And we worked with experts at that time who were just mortified saying, "There's so many things wrong about teaching a kid that they should have as a friend in their bedroom. Um, a representative of a corporation who's really listening and trying to sell him stuff!"

Hillary Wilkinson (05:08):

So creepy,

David Monahan (05:10):

And take them away from the creative play that they should be engaged in. I heard you say the word creepy Hillary, and, uh, you can Google Hello Barbie and creepy, because frankly, thanks to our work, we, um, kind of neutralized all the great marketing that they did and people saw how creepy it was and the toy was actually, um, a flop. But we were ready when, um, when, um, Instagram for kids was proposed, um, for instance, um, as a new way of "getting kids onto a safer platform." Um, but the experts that we worked with were very clear about the fact no, the idea was to be getting even younger kids at age seven and eight into that habit of being, um, on social media. Just wrong for them on in so many ways, starts to get them into that whole cycle of looking for affirmation, right?

David Monahan (06:06):

Um, looking for somebody's artificial idea of popularity. So much about materialism and buying things to be happy. And as Haley and I will both talk about, so much of it was about data collection, um, and just really targeted marketing. And so thankfully we raised a lot of awareness about it and we actually got, um, regulators and state attorneys general interested. We were successful in having them put off that idea. And we're still hopeful that it won't happen. But, um, those are the kind of incursions where they're just trying to get even younger and younger kids into the habit of social media and just being glued to their devices.

Hillary Wilkinson (06:47):

Right, right. Kind of gateways into the, the larger social media platform. So are those kind of, I, I'm just wondering like what you see as the, the kind of harms and risks for young people of today's internet. Is that, or are you talking like data collection? What, what do you see as being the, the largest things of concern would you say?

David Monahan (07:12):

Well, you know, I think there are a number of them. So there's the data collection, there's the exposure to strangers, potentially predators. Um, there's the exposure to materialism and commercialism and sometimes ads for unhealthy products. So much of it is manipulative, you know, it's about, um, tricking kids into spending more time into clicking on an ad, into making a purchase. Um, so in, in so many ways, you know, the experts tell us that they're targeting kids based upon their issues about body image, um, and leading them into content that will promote unhealthy diets and unhealthy body image. And so much of it is also just taking them away from the healthy activities they need. Right. So, you know, we're all familiar with the idea that you might say, "Well, let me go on my phone and just check the weather or just see the score of the ball game."

David Monahan (08:11):

And an hour later we're like, Oh my goodness, I succumbed to all the bells and whistles of looking at a news feed, things that were selected by the algorithm, all those things. Well, in the case of a young person, if they do that for an hour or two, and if they do that a few times a week, then that's displaced activities that are so vital to their, to their development. You know, just reading a book, playing outside, doing something constructive, like dealing with their boredom in their own way, in a creative way, rather than just being taken on this ride of what a corporation wants them to see. So, um, those are, I think among the, the really concerning harms that experts point to.

Hillary Wilkinson (08:56):

Right. Uh, so it's interesting we're recording to today. We are recording actually the day after California Governor Gavin Newsome signed AB (which stands for Assembly bill for those who need the schoolhouse rock refresher )AB 2 27 0 3, which establishes the California Age appropriate Design Code Act. And this is, this is huge and can you speak to why? Why is it so big?

Haley Hinkle (09:27):

Yeah, I can talk about that a little bit. You know, I think David just captured so much about what we are worried about when it comes to kids and teens and online platforms. And when we think about harms and we think about advertising, um, it's really kind of a cycle for these platforms because, uh, the longer they can keep a user online, the more data they can vacuum up about that user in order to more effectively target them with ads. Um, and then also tweak their algorithms and their platform design so that you want to spend more and more time there. And so young people really just get caught in this loop of, you know, the more time they spend, the more sophisticated the platform can become at really holding your attention and using very sophisticated techniques to do so. And so, you know, the California Age Appropriate Design Code, um, which is modeled after, uh, design code in the UK, uh, is really a step towards, uh, disrupting some of that cycle and shifting some responsibility back to the platforms to think about what are the potential risks and harms of their algorithms and design choices, uh, and how do they inform families and, and, you know, parents of children and teenagers about some of those, those risks? And just have more public accountability for, for what they are building.

Hillary Wilkinson (10:52):

Okay, Okay. So it's shifting responsibility back towards big tech?  And which I think, you know, so down here in grassroots land it's, it, it's interesting cause both sides are equally important. It's so important to, for grassroots folks to educate and build awareness, etcetera, and give parents kind of tools on the ground. But without this legislative component, there's, uh, it's, you're never, I mean, I, I hate using exactive language. I don't like using, you know, the never, but it seems as though you're never gonna get in front of it. So, yeah,

Haley Hinkle (11:35):

I mean, I think that's true. Even the most concerned, uh, parents and families can take, you know, as many steps as possible to protect their kids. But the fact is that they're up against these huge tech companies that have so much data and, and so much manpower to, uh, you know, design very sophisticated products. And, and so, you know, we really think that there needs to be some responsibility on those companies to, um, be installing, you know, the more protective settings from the get-go and, and, uh, making it easier for families to, you know, have some peace of mind about, you know, the settings and, and what's actually happening on a platform. Because so much of it is a black box right now.

Hillary Wilkinson (12:17):

Right. And so much of it defaults to public settings. It defaults to just, I mean, making everybody's life an open book. And so, and what's really tricky, I know as a parent is that sometimes with updates, everything resets. So you think you've got it all in place and then you go back, you do your monthly check and everything's open again. And it's, it is so very, very tricky stuff. I'm, I'm glad we're moving forward in that light. So we have to take a break, but when we come back, we're gonna get to the two major legislative bills for protecting kids online, KOSA and COPPA 2.0 defined.

Ad Break – Healthy Screen Habits Website

Hillary Wilkinson (13:40):

My guests today are both dog and cat owners. David Monahan plans and implements Fairplay's campaigns and builds partnerships with advocacy groups and policymakers. But when he goes home, David, his wife and two kids share their Massachusetts home with a four-legged family member named Beatrice. So David, tell us what kind of dog is Beatrice?

David Monahan (14:13):

Um, Beatrice is a queen of course, um, she's a mix. And her, um, her DNA report says that she's part Great Pyrenees, part Siberian Husky, part German Shepherd, and a few other things. Um, she came to Massachusetts by way of Tennessee and, um, indications are that the first three years of her life in the hot sun in Tennessee were not a walk in the park, but her eight, um, or so years since then have been absolutely wonderful and she's a great part of our family. Thanks for asking.

Hillary Wilkinson (14:49):

Oh, sure. So she sounds absolutely adorable, but I do not envy the amount of vacuuming that happens at your house with those breeds. I can, I can imagine the amount of dog hair! <laugh>

David Monahan (15:02):

She's shedding right now. And if this were a video, um, podcast, I'd be sure to go get some of the evidence.

Hillary Wilkinson (15:09):

Oh, <laugh>, That's okay. I got, I got plenty at my own house. <laugh>. Yeah. Perfect. So let's give equal time for cat lovers in the crowd and hear about Cammi the Wonder Cat who lives in Washington DC with Haley Hinkle, the policy council for Fair Play, where she focuses on advocating for laws and regulations that protect young people's autonomy and safety online. Haley and her partner Isaac share their home with Cammi. Haley, what is Cammi like?

Haley Hinkle (15:46):

Uh, she is a character. She's our little pandemic adoptee and she's so much fun. She is, um, part tortoise shell and I didn't really believe in Torti-tude until we adopted her. And it's so funny how very much she is in charge around here, and she's the most vocal cat. She talks all day long. Fortunately right now she's napping, so I don't think she'll be making a guest appearance uh,  midday’s prime napping hours. But she's just been so much fun. Um, I was just remarking last night, I don't really remember what we did before we had her.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:22):

Yeah, <laugh>. Well, the attitude cracks me up. I understand that as well with the cats at my house. Nothing like pets and kids to keep us grounded <laugh> and humble <laugh>, because true. We think, we think we've got it under control and they tell us, Oh no, actually we run the house.

Haley Hinkle (16:40):

<laugh> <laugh>.

Hillary Wilkinson (16:41):

So let's get to the big topic of today, these two bills that are hitting the floor. First I want to ask about COPPA, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act, and it's being referred to as COPPA 2.0. So how is this different than what already exists?

Haley Hinkle (17:01):

Yeah, that's a great question. So the original Children's Online Privacy Protection Act passed back in 1998, which is well before so many of the technologies that are so prominent in kids' lives even existed. Um, and so while it has, um, some, you know, data protections for young people, it only protects minors under the age of 13. Um, it only protects them really on child-directed websites and platforms. Um, and the Children and Teens Online Privacy Protection Act or COPPA 2.0, um, updates that in many ways, uh, it adds protections for young people ages 13 to 16. It expands what is covered by, by reaching kids where they're reasonably likely to be. We really want to meet kids where they are. We know, you know, even when, for example, there's a sort of supposed to be an under thirteens version of TikTok that a lot of young people, um, end up on the adult version anyway.

Haley Hinkle (18:02):

They don't wanna be on the quote-unquote baby version of these platforms. So we're, you know, with COPPA 2.0, um, really hoping to make this important change in protecting kids where they actually are. Um, and it does, you know, a lot of other things that it bands targeted ads to, uh, kids under 17, it puts into place some more, um, controls and rules around, you know, minimizing company's use of data, uh, who they're sharing that with, how long they're keeping it, uh, really just trying to take what we've learned since, uh, the original version of COPPA past 24 years ago and, um, updated and, and try to make it work for kids today, um, with, um, the way, you know, platforms and technology work.

Hillary Wilkinson (18:57):

So overdue. Yeah, absolutely. So overdue. I can't think of anything that 24 years ago is nearly applicable to today's life. So it's, it's a, it's slightly horrifying to go; It's taken 24 years to swing this around, you know? So the other bill that's getting a lot of press and focus from advocacy groups like ours is KOSA, the Kids Online Safety Act. And can, Haley, can you tell us about this one?

Haley Hinkle (19:28):

Yeah, so KOSA we can think about is pretty similar to in some ways the California Age Appropriate Design Code. Maybe not necessarily in the exact words of the bills, but in, in the goals and what they're really trying to get at, which is again, sort of shifting some of that responsibility for thinking about potential harms and, and, um, and creating more transparency around what's actually going on on these platforms. So KOSA establishes a duty of care that platforms would have to follow, and they'd have to, you know, prevent and mitigate, uh, specific harms to young people, harms to their physical and mental health, you know, um, uh, products and services that, that increase risks of, uh, or promote behaviors related to, you know, really difficult things; self-harm, suicide, eating disorders, um, you know, the promotion of physical violence and bullying, sexual exploitation, the promotion of narcotic drugs and, you know, predatory and unfair deceptive marketing practices and other financial harms.

Haley Hinkle (20:27):

Um, you know, things that we, uh, really don't want young people to be facing online, right? These, these waves of, of content that we know, um, you know, unfortunately through both, uh, reporting and then, uh, investigations by journalists where they're pretending to be young people on, on these platforms, that all it takes is for an account that looks like a teenage girl to watch one video about, um, you know, dieting to then be led further and further with her video recommendations on TikTok towards, um, some really, um, really dangerous ideas around, um, dieting and calorie restriction and, and really pro-eating disorder content as just one example. So the duty of care, um, helps shift responsibility to the platforms to be actively thinking about their algorithm's role in that kind of thing. And then, you know, it introduces, um, you know, requirements for default safeguards for minors like who are talking about those, um, you know, defaulting to the strongest available settings.

Haley Hinkle (21:25):

Um, it provides, um, more requirements around parental tools and, and parental notice. Um, and again, you know, like COPPA, we're expanding protections with this to the 13 to 16-year-olds. Um, because again, right now we only have privacy laws that protect kids under 13. And, you know, we would really like to see 17-year-olds covered by both of these bills. We think that all teens, you know, they're developing, they're learning, they're exploring, um, they deserve these protections. But, um, you know, we're glad to see the expansion to 16 and of course always pushing, um, to get our 17-year-olds covered as well. But, you know, there's lots of different things. The bill does, it creates for the biggest platforms requirements around, um, public reporting and third-party auditing about around some of these, um, issues. Uh, and then it also tries to establish means by which the government can help researchers get access to data from some of these platforms to try to, um, get at that sort of black box element where we don't know how these algorithms work or, or what information these platforms have. You know, fortunately whistle blowers like Francis Haugen have helped us gain insight, gain insight into what's actually happening. But, you know, we, we would love for, um, researchers to have access in a responsible way that that de-identifies the data and protects everyone's privacy, um, to learn more about what's going on here so that we as the public can, can make decisions and, and ask for, for the changes that we need.

Hillary Wilkinson (22:51):

Yeah. So it sounds, it sounds like it's, I mean, just all encompassing and it sounds like it's primarily, and I maybe I'm wrong in understanding this, but is it primarily focused on user generated content sites, like, um, social media, or is it also like video gaming platforms and those things as well?

Haley Hinkle (23:13):

Yeah, no, it absolutely, it covers a broad range of online platforms. I think when we think about harms, we often think of social media platforms mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but we can very easily think of gaming as well, especially when it comes to that encouraging addiction-like behavior and design choices that are just meant to keep kids playing. And throw ads at them all the time. You know, that's where we get into the unfair and deceptive marketing practices and financial harm. Um, so, you know, it absolutely applies in that context as well. You know, kids spending more time gaming is again, um, you know, as David said, displacing some of those really valuable offline activities that are, are so important to development.

Hillary Wilkinson (23:49):

Sure, sure. So when will these bills actually hit the floor? Is there like a calendared event or when, when can we look for these?

Haley Hinkle (24:00):

Well, that's where we could really use the help of as many people as possible. These bills have both passed out of a committee in the Senate, um, KOSA passed with a, uh, unanimous vote. Um, and COPPA 2.0 passed out as well. And so now we are doing everything we can to encourage the senate to bring these bills to the floor for a full Senate vote. Uh, we have been encouraging everyone that we know basically at Fairplay to call their senators, uh, and ask for them to support these bills to co-sponsor them. You know, we are farther than we've really ever been and in passing, uh, updated legislation for kids online. And we think that there's so much bipartisan energy around this, we really need to, to use the momentum.

Hillary Wilkinson (24:55):

I think coming out of the pandemic, everybody recognizes that technology was this, I'm gonna borrow Emily Cherkin's phrase, a lifeboat that got us through, but nobody's meant to live on a lifeboat. You know, we, and so at this point where all of us are recognizing how important it is to kind of reign this in, and one of the things that I love about Fairplay site on this is that it provides this easy to click button on how to get in touch with your senator. So if anybody listening today is like, Gosh, I wanna encourage my senator to support this bill, please, I will link all of this in the show notes, including the Fairplay link. And it is, so, it's, it's falling off a log, easy to do, <laugh>. I mean, as far as getting through, and I, when I did it, I actually got to speak with somebody in the office. I, you know, I made a phone call and got to speak and it's, I don't know, it's, it's exciting to see democracy in action. <laugh>,

David Monahan (26:02):

You, you know, you're right Hillary, and um, you and Haley both mentioned how, um, it's really kind of a bipartisan issue. So if people wanna get involved, it's not as if you need to hope that your senator or representative is kind of on the correct side of this and think, well, if they slam the phone down on me, I guess they're not. Um, this is something that both sides seem to agree upon. The, the little bit of a stale mate now seems to be more about just playing politics. Um, so it would really be a shame to just not get these bills, um, across the finish line in the next couple of months. If it doesn't happen. Um, we will continue working and partner advocates and families and experts will continue working and looking at the possibility of success in other states the way California just passed a law. Um, but we are so close now - it really is time for people to act and say, this is what kids need to create a safer internet.

Hillary Wilkinson (27:05):

I agree. Okay. And that honestly could have been our Healthy Screen Habit for the day, but I'm not gonna let you get off that easy. So when we come back, I'm going to hit our two experts up for their healthiest screen habits.

Ad Break – KOSA & COPPA 2.0

Hillary Wilkinson:

My guests today are being exceptionally good sports. Not only have I pumped them for info on governmental issues, but when I told them they could submit a combined healthy screen habit as the tip or takeaway for us to use in our homes. They declined. They each submitted a habit. So today we get a two-fer! So I'm not sure which of you would like to go first.

Haley Hinkle (27:55):

I'll start, um, cause then I think my tip segues right into David's. Um, we talked about today how these platforms use very subtle design techniques to try to keep us all online. And, you know, one of those is the, you know, on social media "for you" or "discover" page where you're being introduced to pages, photos, videos that you didn't follow and that they can really get you there when you're scrolling through. Like, what am I gonna see next? So if you're trying to be more mindful about your time on these platforms where we are able to, uh, you know, connect with, with friends and loved ones that we don't get to see everyday, I really recommend, um, sticking to, you know, on TikTok you can switch over to your “following” feed, uh, on Instagram. There's new options now I think for setting your feed to your close friends list so you're not getting, um, all those brand pages and, and other accounts that maybe you, you've followed and, and, uh, can really just focus in on on the folks who you really wanna see and hear from. Uh, and then, and then step away.

Hillary Wilkinson (28:59):

Managing your feed so you could keep your time on tech intentional I love it. Okay, David, your turn!

David Monahan (29:07):

My tip is simply to, um, try to go out on a high note. Um, if you are going through the newsfeed or ball scores or whatever it is, when you see something that makes you feel really good and um, makes you feel good about the the universe. That's a great time to just shut down and take that good energy with you for the rest of the evening, for your time with your family and not keep looking until you see something that's liable to stick in your craw and make you look for other things that might stick even further in your craw. So end on a high note and shut her down.

Hillary Wilkinson (29:46):

I love it. I love the positive energy in the world that, that would bring about and it's kind of a hack on the way that Netflix times their series where they're always leaving you on a cliffhanger to want to watch that next one. I've also heard to like, you know, end each Netflix episode five minutes before the, the cliffhanger drops and so that, that, but you're, it's just a, a different take on it. I love it. Okay, Thank you, both of you. As always, a complete transcript of this episode as well as links to all of the resources mentioned can be found in today's show notes. You can find them on healthy screen habits.org, click on the podcast button and use the dropdown menu to find this episode. Haley Hinkle, David Monahan, thank you so much for being here today and thank you even more for the important work you do everyday at Fair Play.

Haley Hinkle (30:47):

Thanks so much for having us.

David Monahan (30:48):

Thank you. And thanks for the great work you're doing.